Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby rkhanna » 10 May 2018 11:01

Assuming the PLA also understands the bottleneck of the strait what are its offense options?

Long Ranger Bombers to take out the AN Command? BM? SOF action against the Island?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 10 May 2018 11:23

Cybaru wrote:They could also quite easily load land based bhramos for equally devastating effect.

Difference is that the mki can carry it patrolling and escort duties unlike land based missiles.

This is the easy solution for now...bmos with mki. I would still like to see the backfire in Indian colors.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Prasad » 10 May 2018 12:19

Can't wait to see the dhoti shivering when PRC launches its "stealth bomber".

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Singha » 10 May 2018 12:46

Car nicobar needs to be our diego garcia/ anderson afb guam packed wingtip to wingtip with refuelers elint heavy fighters and bombers all making daily trips to patrol the scs

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Singha » 10 May 2018 12:47

Is it international airspace over malacca permitting our planes to fly back and forth
Its waters are listed as international

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... al_straits

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 09:31

Ajai Shukla

@ajaishukla
2h2 hours ago
More
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) offers to build 40 additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters for Indian Air Force at a cost of Rs 425 crore ($63 million) each. That is one-third the cost of each Rafale being bought from Dassault.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 09:34

HAL offers 40 more Sukhoi-30s at one-third Rafale’s cost

By Ajai Shukla
Bengaluru, 15th May 18
With the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter – the backbone of the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet – nearing the end of its production run, its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), is taking up a case to build 40 more.

If the defence ministry accepts HAL’s proposal, the IAF’s inventory of the Russian fighter would be enhanced from the currently planned 272 to 312 Su-30s (sixteen squadrons).

With HAL offering to price the additional Su-30s at just Rs 425 crore (4.25 billion), the fighter will be barely one-third the cost of the Rafale. According to a Business Standard analysis (November 24, 2017, Clouds over fighter jet: How much did Rafale actually cost?) the IAF is paying Rs 1,125 crore (11.25 billion) per Rafale, excluding the price of weapons and logistics.

HAL chairman, T Suvarna Raju, said: “We will offer a very competitive price. Since 2010, we have been delivering the Su-30 at Rs 425 crore. We can deliver another three squadrons at that same price.”At that price, the IAF would pay Rs 17,000 crore (170 billion) for 40 additional Su-30s.

However, that would involve buying the fighter in ready to assemble kits from Russia and putting them together in Nashik. “HAL has already absorbed the technology for building and supporting the Su-30. Now, the aim is to build those three new squadrons as quickly, and as cheaply, as possible”, said Raju.


Rationalising the proposal for 40 additional Su-30s, Raju says they are needed to carry the BrahMos air launched cruise missile (ALCM).

“We are required to modify 40-odd Sukhoi-30s to carry the BrahMos ALCM. Instead of upgrading older fighters, with a shorter residual lifespan, it would be better to build three more squadrons of Sukhois with the capability to carry BrahMos missiles”, said Raju.


The air-launched version of the BrahMos has been downsized to eight metres and 2,560 kilogrammes. Even so, mounting it on a Su-30 fighter requires reinforcing the aircraft’s underbelly and installing a heavy-duty mounting station. After years of development, the BrahMos was successfully test-fired from a Su-30 in November.

“It is easier and better to kit out new Su-30s to carry the BrahMos, rather than carrying out structural modifications to old aircraft”, said Raju.


Ministry sources indicate that a proposal to build more Su-30s would be considered positively, given the shortfall of IAF fighter squadrons.

HAL is currently building the last 23 Su-30 fighters, of the 222 it was mandated to build. The IAF’s first 50 Su-30s were built in Russia

Sukhoi-30 upgrade


Even as HAL Nashik builds the last Su-30s on order, HAL and Sukhoi are negotiating the upgrade of the Sukhoi fleet.

HAL officials say they wanted to be the lead agency, but Sukhoi has indicated it wants a 50 per cent share in this lucrative contract to upgrade the fighter’s avionics, including radar, glass cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems, warning systems and jammers.

“The IAF has already frozen its upgrade requirements. We are now waiting for the commercial proposal from Russia”, says the HAL chairman.
HAL estimates that an avionics upgrade for the Su-30 would cost upward of Rs 100 crore (one billion) per aircraft, placing the cost of upgrading 312 fighters at Rs 31,200 crore (312 billion).


HAL officials say the upgrade will have two distinct parts. In Phase I, Sukhoi would take over some IAF Su-30s and use them as prototypes to install and certify new-generation avionics and weapons upgrades. Subsequently, HAL would install those upgrades into the entire fleet.

Phase II, which would involve India-specific enhancements, would be designed and developed by HAL and also incorporated onto the fighter by HAL alone.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 15 May 2018 10:42

A good proposal at affordable cost far cheaper than another batch of Rafales.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 15 May 2018 10:48

Very good idea, will keep IAF numbers up and HAl production line in Nashik busy.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Indranil » 15 May 2018 11:19

In retrospect, what did we gain from the Rafale purchase?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 11:31

Indranil wrote:In retrospect, what did we gain from the Rafale purchase?


Rafale deal is strategic deal in that it takes over from Mirages for Strategic Detterence Role

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby rohan1424 » 15 May 2018 11:34

Going for the additional Su-30 is the best available and cost effective option .

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Avarachan » 15 May 2018 12:22

Indranil wrote:In retrospect, what did we gain from the Rafale purchase?


1) Because of the ties between Russia and China, it is best to use a non-Russian aircraft for the air-launched nuclear-deterrence role.

2) The Rafale deal keeps the strategic cooperation with the French going. As I've written on BRF before, there were other goodies that came along with the Rafale deal. The French are helping India with cryptography, for instance.

3) The MMRCA contest gave India the opportunity to examine and test every 4++ generation aircraft on the planet. This will be extremely useful in developing the Tejas further.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 15 May 2018 13:30

Three squadrons is 60 aircraft right?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 14:25

HAL officials say the upgrade will have two distinct parts. In Phase I, Sukhoi would take over some IAF Su-30s and use them as prototypes to install and certify new-generation avionics and weapons upgrades. Subsequently, HAL would install those upgrades into the entire fleet.

Phase II, which would involve India-specific enhancements, would be designed and developed by HAL and also incorporated onto the fighter by HAL alone.


Wonder what Phase II would be RWR, ESM , MAWS , Comms , Datalink , Jammers ...... Indian specific enhancements .....similar words were used in Rafale deal as well.

HAL Currently makes SU-30MK1 Mk3 variant , The cost is Rs 425 crore ( USD 63 million ) , The article says Super MKI upgrade would cost 100 Crore each aircraft , So each Super MKI would cost Rs 524 Crore ( USD ~ 77 million )

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 14:36

Cybaru wrote:Three squadrons is 60 aircraft right?


It should be 16 Aircraft plus 4 reserves per squadron

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 15 May 2018 18:02

60 more souped up BMos MKIs would make a massive difference in the IAF's capability as the Rafale cannot do the same biz. and 3 times more expensive! These birds would be real force multipliers and even if just 3 to 4 sqds. of earlier MKIs are upgraded to the same std., it would give the IAF 120+ BMos capable aircraft to hit China and Pak with. This would also keep Nasik busy for several years until the FGFA is ready for induction , assembled, whatever.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby abhik » 15 May 2018 18:38

HAL officials say they wanted to be the lead agency, but Sukhoi has indicated it wants a 50 per cent share in this lucrative contract to upgrade the fighter’s avionics, including radar, glass cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems, warning systems and jammers.

This makes me cringe, IMO we should also be reverse engineering the SU30 like the Chinese, if not to build new one at least to maintain and upgrade. MKIs make up around 40% of the IAF fighter force, having them at the mercy of some foreign power and being liable to pay periodic bribes is not a good idea.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 15 May 2018 18:55

This reverse engineering is for Chinese H&D only. The Russians have equal or more control over the Chinese flankers. Only the LCA Tejas Teams we can have the control we want.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 15 May 2018 19:17

Austin wrote:HAL officials say they wanted to be the lead agency, but Sukhoi has indicated it wants a 50 per cent share in this lucrative contract to upgrade the fighter’s avionics, including radar, glass cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems, warning systems and jammers.

This is stupid. Since the upgrade will involve third party and Indian subsystems, there is no reason to pay Sukhoi 50%. We dont pay BAe for Jaguar upgrades either. We did BrahMos integration ourselves without any inputs from Sukhoi.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JTull » 15 May 2018 19:38

How long would it have taken HAL to upgrade 40 aircraft to carry Brahmos? And, how long will take it to deliver 40 new ones if the order was placed today?

HAL is taking a short cut. If it had upgraded 40 then it would have all the skills/tooling to upgrade even more. Now, HAL is putting a cap on how many aircraft will be Brahmos capable and also slowing the timeline.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby fanne » 15 May 2018 20:12

well in any case additional 40 SU30MKI (the most capable IAF aircraft as of now, and the one that can make difference in both sectors, China and TSP) will be a welcomed addition. I think SU30MKI sq do not have 20 aircrafts (you don't need 2 trainers traditionally held, plus maybe attritional reserves are getting pooled, so another 4 is not needed, maybe just 2? so 16 aircraft make a sq?).

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 20:18

JTull wrote:How long would it have taken HAL to upgrade 40 aircraft to carry Brahmos? And, how long will take it to deliver 40 new ones if the order was placed today?

HAL is taking a short cut. If it had upgraded 40 then it would have all the skills/tooling to upgrade even more. Now, HAL is putting a cap on how many aircraft will be Brahmos capable and also slowing the timeline.


LOL. It doesn't not matter if they modify old ones or make new ones directly in modified form as far as modification capability is concerned. If more Su-30 are to be ordered it makes sense to make them with BMos capable. They can always modify more if IAF needs them.

It will take them 3-4years to modify 40 Su30MKI anyway. I think they must be modifying those aircrafts which are up for overhaul already. As they would be stripped down anyway for overhaul. And re-assembly and requalification would be happen along with normal overhaul process.

Its a good proposal.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 15 May 2018 20:26

Austin wrote:HAL offers 40 more Sukhoi-30s at one-third Rafale’s cost

By Ajai Shukla
Bengaluru, 15th May 18
However, that would involve buying the fighter in ready to assemble kits from Russia and putting them together in Nashik. “HAL has already absorbed the technology for building and supporting the Su-30. Now, the aim is to build those three new squadrons as quickly, and as cheaply, as possible”, said Raju.[/b]


LOL, so HAL is offering to screwdriver 40 Su-30s for IAF. How nice of them. And what of the TOT? To be used only for spares? How gracious of Russia and HAL to save the taxpayers money.

HAL officials say the upgrade will have two distinct parts. In Phase I, Sukhoi would take over some IAF Su-30s and use them as prototypes to install and certify new-generation avionics and weapons upgrades. Subsequently, HAL would install those upgrades into the entire fleet.

Phase II, which would involve India-specific enhancements, would be designed and developed by HAL and also incorporated onto the fighter by HAL alone.


LOL, So what is HALs role? Adding an India specific Mission Computer to a bus and then bragging about its contribution?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 15 May 2018 22:08

Better than buying at thrice the price a Rafale without even screwdriver tech! :rotfl:

But seriously, officially it has been stated that now over 70% of the MKI is built from local raw materials.That is some achievement when compared with the desi content of the LCA. What therefore prevents HAL from building these sqds. at home after the current orders are complete, Instead of merely buying kits?
Last edited by Philip on 15 May 2018 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 22:11

Its perplexing that HAL proposes CKD/SKD assembled Su30 after they have developed the capability of manufacturing them from scratch. Its a lunatic proposal frankly, if true.

On one side HAL chairman asks for more orders so the Nashik line does not go idle in 3yrs time. And on the other hand they propose screwdrivergiri of CKD/SKD.

Is this report even correct..?

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby tsarkar » 15 May 2018 22:12

JayS wrote:
JTull wrote:How long would it have taken HAL to upgrade 40 aircraft to carry Brahmos? And, how long will take it to deliver 40 new ones if the order was placed today?

HAL is taking a short cut. If it had upgraded 40 then it would have all the skills/tooling to upgrade even more. Now, HAL is putting a cap on how many aircraft will be Brahmos capable and also slowing the timeline.


LOL. It doesn't not matter if they modify old ones or make new ones directly in modified form as far as modification capability is concerned. If more Su-30 are to be ordered it makes sense to make them with BMos capable. They can always modify more if IAF needs them.

It will take them 3-4years to modify 40 Su30MKI anyway. I think they must be modifying those aircrafts which are up for overhaul already. As they would be stripped down anyway for overhaul. And re-assembly and requalification would be happen along with normal overhaul process.

Its a good proposal.


The last 42 Sukhois ordered in 2012 and being assembled from CKD kits right now were supposed to have structural enhancements for BrahMos. But since Sukhoi charged a bomb for BrahMos integration and we did it ourselves, the know how was gained domestically. And Sukhoi now wants to kill it by offering new aircraft kits. So how does this become a good proposal?

However, that would involve buying the fighter in ready to assemble kits from Russia and putting them together in Nashik.

It's a shame HAL never looked it increase manufacturing Su-30 Mk-IV beyond 140 and is taking the easy way out by screwdrivering additional 40. And the Russians and the world will call this "inability of Indians to absorb technology". Other SDRE's will start believing this falsehood. Shame on you, HAL! It is precisely because of this coziness with screwdrivering that Services think indigenisation is a farce.

HAL officials say they wanted to be the lead agency, but Sukhoi has indicated it wants a 50 per cent share in this lucrative contract to upgrade the fighter’s avionics, including radar, glass cockpit displays, electronic warfare systems, warning systems and jammers

Again Indian money would be used by a Russia to fund new generation radars, glass cockpit, EW, RWR, MAWS

We never paid BAe for any Jaguar systems upgrade with all the above systems
We never paid BAe for Sea Harrier upgrade with all the above systems
We never paid Mikoyan for MiG-27 upgrade
We did pay them for MiG-21 and MiG-29 upgrades and got underdeveloped Kopyo and Zhuk used by no one else.
Why cant HAL choose best of breed AESA, jammers, MAWS etc and does itself when it has done so for so many other aircraft?

The only reason I can see is that one part of HAL sees itself as a Rozgar Yojana rather than a manufacturing entity and T S R is sadly going with the flow.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 22:33

tsarkar wrote:Again Indian money would be used by a Russia to fund new generation radars, glass cockpit, EW, RWR, MAWS

We never paid BAe for any Jaguar systems upgrade with all the above systems
We never paid BAe for Sea Harrier upgrade with all the above systems
We never paid Mikoyan for MiG-27 upgrade
We did pay them for MiG-21 and MiG-29 upgrades and got underdeveloped Kopyo and Zhuk used by no one else.
Why cant HAL choose best of breed AESA, jammers, MAWS etc and does itself when it has done so for so many other aircraft?


The Upgrade Specs is frozen by IAF and HAL has no role in it beyond being a system integrator and working with OEM or DRDO.

SAHR upgrade had Israel Radar and weapons so MOD paid to IAI , Same goes for JAgs upgrade mostly Indian System , BA did not have JAgs operational and they didnt offer any thing beyond using a better engine , even the original computer offered by Jags failed many times as we discussed in other thread and could not work well in Indian condition ...... 29 upgrade had Zhuk and other system Zhuk is used on all Russian SMT , Egypt 29SMT and 29K/R

M2K Upgrade we paid to 100 % Dassault as all the package came from OEM , So MKI upgrade depending what specs are chosen would involve Russian and indian system at the least and perhaps French/Israel who knows what is the final specs of MKI upgrade
Last edited by Austin on 15 May 2018 22:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 22:33

tsarkar wrote:
JayS wrote:
LOL. It doesn't not matter if they modify old ones or make new ones directly in modified form as far as modification capability is concerned. If more Su-30 are to be ordered it makes sense to make them with BMos capable. They can always modify more if IAF needs them.

It will take them 3-4years to modify 40 Su30MKI anyway. I think they must be modifying those aircrafts which are up for overhaul already. As they would be stripped down anyway for overhaul. And re-assembly and requalification would be happen along with normal overhaul process.

Its a good proposal.


The last 42 Sukhois ordered in 2012 and being assembled from CKD kits right now were supposed to have structural enhancements for BrahMos. But since Sukhoi charged a bomb for BrahMos integration and we did it ourselves, the know how was gained domestically. And Sukhoi now wants to kill it by offering new aircraft kits. So how does this become a good proposal?



I said that only from the limited perspective that its perhaps good idea to have newly ordered fighters themselves modded for BMos rather than modifying existing fighters. The changes involve airframe modification which is time consuming. I assume the BMos related changes would be done by HAL only, since Sukhoi have never done those changes anyway. So the modification capability should remain intact with HAL/NAL still. IAF can ask HAL to modify old Su30MKI to have more than 40 BMos capable jets. The proposal seems to be from HAL, to me, not from Sukhoi.

Anyhow its deplorable that HAL proposes screwdrivergiri project. I would have said, IAF should ask them to make the pending 40 odd Su30 BMos capable instead for asking for new order. But it makes sense to oder couple of additional Sq of MKI (and 2 Sq of Rafale). Thats easiest and most logical way to arrest falling numbers rather than going for MMRCA tamasha. In fact IAF can think of the those new Su30MKI to be at SS standard and with BMos capability.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 15 May 2018 22:37

JayS wrote:Its perplexing that HAL proposes CKD/SKD assembled Su30 after they have developed the capability of manufacturing them from scratch. Its a lunatic proposal frankly, if true.


Assuning Shuklaw report is true , We have no way to cofirm or deny , HAL has made MKI from Indian Sources Raw material so they would build any new MKI from Indian sourced material , They only reason why MKI was built with CKD/SKD if IAF wanted a faster delivery schedule but the last many dozens MKI were built from Indian sourced raw material see no reason why that should even change , HAL can deliver 12 MKI per year from Indian built raw materials ....Unless IAF says something like give me 40 MKI in 2 years and not in 4 then they will go via CKD/SKD route but its like a fairy tale thing

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 22:49

Austin wrote:
JayS wrote:Its perplexing that HAL proposes CKD/SKD assembled Su30 after they have developed the capability of manufacturing them from scratch. Its a lunatic proposal frankly, if true.


Assuning Shuklaw report is true , We have no way to cofirm or deny , HAL has made MKI from Indian Sources Raw material so they would build any new MKI from Indian sourced material , They only reason why MKI was built with CKD/SKD if IAF wanted a faster delivery schedule but the last many dozens MKI were built from Indian sourced raw material see no reason why that should even change , HAL can deliver 12 MKI per year from Indian built raw materials ....Unless IAF says something like give me 40 MKI in 2 years and not in 4 then they will go via CKD/SKD route but its like a fairy tale thing


It would bode well for everyone if HAL manufactures pending Su30s with BMos capability and deliver them in next 3yrs. And ask for additional 40 jets order to continue the assembly line for 3-4 more years (may be those 40 can be made at SS configuration directly). So IAF gets their 40 BMos capable jets in 3-4yrs. HAL gets enough orders to keep line open and they also need not do screwdrivergiri with CKD/SKD since they will have 3 more years to plan for them.

Anyhow GOI/IAF would not have enough money to acquire 40 more Su30MKI in next 3-4yrs while they are also buying 40odd already ordered Su30, 83 LCA, Rafales and looking to buy MMRCA in addition. A lot of money already is committed. And things are not looking great with weak rupee and increasing oil prices in near future.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kakarat » 15 May 2018 23:11

Austin wrote:HAL offers 40 more Sukhoi-30s at one-third Rafale’s cost

By Ajai Shukla
Bengaluru, 15th May 18
With HAL offering to price the additional Su-30s at just Rs 425 crore (4.25 billion), the fighter will be barely one-third the cost of the Rafale. According to a Business Standard analysis (November 24, 2017, Clouds over fighter jet: How much did Rafale actually cost?) the IAF is paying Rs 1,125 crore (11.25 billion) per Rafale, excluding the price of weapons and logistics.

...


“The IAF has already frozen its upgrade requirements. We are now waiting for the commercial proposal from Russia”, says the HAL chairman.
HAL estimates that an avionics upgrade for the Su-30 would cost upward of Rs 100 crore (one billion) per aircraft, placing the cost of upgrading 312 fighters at Rs 31,200 crore (312 billion).

[/b]


I don't think we can compare the price of both the aircraft's because if i am right the current Su-30MKI does not have a EW suite like the Rafale and also technologically Rafale is much more advanced than a Su-30MKI with AESA radar etc.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 15 May 2018 23:15

Why CKD/SKD and not from scratch? Because of speed of delivery. Raju talks of delivering these 40 rather quickly.

. However, that would involve buying the fighter in ready to assemble kits from Russia and putting them together in Nashik. “HAL has already absorbed the technology for building and supporting the Su-30. Now, the aim is to build those three new squadrons as quickly, and as cheaply, as possible”, said Raju.


That's the reason/excuse

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Indranil » 15 May 2018 23:29

JayS, Nothing perplexing about the fact that the Su-30s built from CKDs are still cheaper and faster. It only highlights the uselessness of license production/ToT model. Russia still holds us by the unmentionables when it comes to Sukhois, Migs. And there is nothing unique about that. BAe holds us for Jaguars (all IP developed in India belongs to them), Dassault for the Mirages ($50 Million per plane per upgrade), US for the transports.

Austin, the 100 crores for the Su-30 upgrades is not additive because no new Super-30s will be made. HAL's proposal is to undertake MLUs of the existing Su-30s to Super-30 standard for 100 crores per plane. And, I say it is a great deal. That is roughly 17-18 million per plane for a much deeper upgrade than what we got for our Mirages. You are speaking radars, engines, avionics, cockpit ...

I can't justify in my mind the Rafale-purchase. I just can't. What stopped us from making 36 strategic-Su-30s? I mean Mirages don't have to be replaced by FRench made aircraft only!!! Some said over-dependence on Russia. Well, now we are dependent on France, just wait for the MLU costs of the Rafale. And how does one remove dependence on over 400 Russian planes with 36 odd Rafales? In my mind, it was tremendously expensive face saving measure from a 16 year saga. The 40 extra Su-30s and all the LCA put together cost about the same as those 36 Rafales. I am not going to agree that the 36 Rafales provide any better or different war fighting capabilities that cannot be covered by 40 Su-30s and 120 LCAs. And no, they are not going to be cheaper to operate either.

I won't whine anymore. But I think my mind is made up on the Rafale purchase.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 15 May 2018 23:36

Exactly!

Why buy extra BMos incapable Rafales at thrice the price?
Remember that even Parikar said that the MKIs were an alternative some time ago.There would be no need for buying yet another firang fighter adding to the birds in the aviary at all! Huge money saved too.From current posts in the other tds. , a new medium sized firang fighter will be not less ( other than MIG-29/35s) than around $70M.

The key factor is delivery of ordnance upon the enemy, at great range which allows a greater survivability factor of the delivery platform.None of our other aircraft in service or being evaluated, other than the modified MKIs, done entirely at home, can do the BMos business. They are also less capable than the MKIs in general, an aircraft that has bested the best of the West.BMos-NG, the planned smaller variant capable of being carried by MIG-29s has yet to arrive, with little news of its progress as it is a smaller size-reduced version, that must also fit the torpedo tubes of our subs.This will be a virtual new missile unlike the existing BMos variants .So for quite some time, the BMos-A will have to suffice.Plus, one would expect BMos- H, under development expected post 2020, would be able to be carried only by MKIs, SU-57s or larger bombers.So it makes little sense to acquire inferior aircraft at higher or even the same cost.

Therefore,acquiring more numbers - 3 to 4 sqds. of BMos MKIs, with the proposed superior avionics, etc. ,would give us a quantum increase in capability against the PLAAF and PAF which none of the other birds can perform. Production will continue smoothly with even greater desi raw material used and the IAF would have greater commonality in its inventory.The recent major air exercises showed that the MKIs had a "90%" availability which was a fantastic effort and achievement.Earlier, due to concerted efforts at improving support, maintenance, etc. , the % had reportedly gone upto 70%.

Pushing MKI and LCA development production is the easiest and most cost effective method to increase both numbers and capability of the IAF if we want to "build in India".
Last edited by Philip on 15 May 2018 23:39, edited 1 time in total.

nachiket
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nachiket » 15 May 2018 23:37

Indranil wrote:Austin, the 100 crores for the Su-30 upgrades is not additive because no new Super-30s will be made. HAL's proposal is to undertake MLUs of the existing Su-30s to Super-30 standard for 100 crores per plane. And, I say it is a great deal. That is roughly 17-18 million per plane for a much deeper upgrade than what we got for our Mirages. You are speaking radars, engines, avionics, cockpit ...

Nitpick. The Super-30 upgrade does not include an engine change as per my recollection.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 15 May 2018 23:38

Indranil wrote:JayS, Nothing perplexing about the fact that the Su-30s built from CKDs are still cheaper and faster. It only highlights the uselessness of license production/ToT model. Russia still holds us by the unmentionables when it comes to Sukhois, Migs. And there is nothing unique about that. BAe holds us for Jaguars (all IP developed in India belongs to them), Dassault for the Mirages ($50 Million per plane per upgrade), US for the transports.

Austin, the 100 crores for the Su-30 upgrades is not additive because no new Super-30s will be made. HAL's proposal is to undertake MLUs of the existing Su-30s to Super-30 standard for 100 crores per plane. And, I say it is a great deal. That is roughly 17-18 million per plane for a much deeper upgrade than what we got for our Mirages. You are speaking radars, engines, avionics, cockpit ...

I can't justify in my mind the Rafale-purchase. I just can't. What stopped us from making 36 strategic-Su-30s? I mean Mirages don't have to be replaced by FRench made aircraft only!!! Some said over-dependence on Russia. Well, now we are dependent on France, just wait for the MLU costs of the Rafale. And how does one remove dependence on over 400 Russian planes with 36 odd Rafales? In my mind, it was tremendously expensive face saving measure from a 16 year saga. The 40 extra Su-30s and all the LCA put together cost about the same as those 36 Rafales. I am not going to agree that the 36 Rafales provide any better or different war fighting capabilities that cannot be covered by 40 Su-30s and 120 LCAs. And no, they are not going to be cheaper to operate either.

I won't whine anymore. But I think my mind is made up on the Rafale purchase.


Interesting post IR, a few thoughts...
1. How does original oem like bae hold us by the **"** when they don't even produce, dirt the birds anymore? Shouldn't Hal be able to produce the bird from scratch off it wants to? Engines?

2. Are the engines on the mki sleep bring upgraded? If so, to what? 117s?

3. Reg. Rafales, the iaf seem really impressed with it's abilities, perhaps the Spectra, mica iir and meteor combo is to die for? They seem to be willing to put it against the j20.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 15 May 2018 23:39

nachiket wrote:
Indranil wrote:Austin, the 100 crores for the Su-30 upgrades is not additive because no new Super-30s will be made. HAL's proposal is to undertake MLUs of the existing Su-30s to Super-30 standard for 100 crores per plane. And, I say it is a great deal. That is roughly 17-18 million per plane for a much deeper upgrade than what we got for our Mirages. You are speaking radars, engines, avionics, cockpit ...

Nitpick. The Super-30 upgrade does not include an engine change as per my recollection.


Im not so sure.... Both possibilities have been suggested

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 23:40

Indranil wrote:JayS, Nothing perplexing about the fact that the Su-30s built from CKDs are still cheaper and faster. It only highlights the uselessness of license production/ToT model. Russia still holds us by the unmentionables when it comes to Sukhois, Migs. And there is nothing unique about that. BAe holds us for Jaguars (all IP developed in India belongs to them), Dassault for the Mirages ($50 Million per plane per upgrade), US for the transports.


Its perplexing for me that as company, when it has a capability to build from scratch, HAL is proposing CKD/SK assembly. Which company in its sane mind would propose a project with less value addition of its own while it can do much more value addition on the same proposal..? And no one would hold HAL in contempt if they propose completely made in india Su30, rather than CKD/SKD import, even if they cost more or would take 2-3 yrs longer.

I think this is what really differentiates a PSU from a Private company, Absolutely lunatics proposal, I feel, based on the limited info from one article, given its correct.


Also IR, lets not forget that the Rafale purchase is a legacy of the time when Su-30MKI used to have 55% availability, dozens of engines related incidences and uncertainty over any possibility in improvement in the situation. Manohar Parrikar happened later.

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 15 May 2018 23:41

Cain Marko wrote:
nachiket wrote:Nitpick. The Super-30 upgrade does not include an engine change as per my recollection.


Im not so sure.... Both possibilities have been suggested


Al41 has been talked about. Not sure how much keen IAF is on this.


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