Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3899
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kartik » 09 Aug 2018 03:13

The Malaysian Su-30MKM experience with overhaul and why their fleet is down to 4-6 available fighters

KUALA LUMPUR—Inadequate funding is exacerbating the low serviceability of the Sukhoi Su-30MKM of the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF), the head of the service said, calling for a bigger budget.

Only four of 18 Su-30MKMs are operational, Defense Minister Mohamad Sabu told parliament.

RMAF chief Gen. Affendi Buang counts six aircraft as operational; the other 12 are awaiting overhauls. The difference between his figures and Mohamad’s suggests two fighters are out of service for lesser problems than the need for overhaul.

Each Su-30MKM needs an overhaul as it enters its 10th year of service, Affendi told the New Straits Times newspaper after the minister’s statement to parliament.

The service has prepared for the work, arranging for its engineering department and the Su-30MKM’s usual local maintainer, Aerospace Technology System Corp. (ATSC), to take on the program. Other local companies are involved.

“We are fine-tuning our requirements for the program, but I have to say that we are severely constrained by our very tight annual operational budget,” he said.

The time needed to establish the Malaysian overhaul setup has also been a factor. Overhauling locally was needed because the aircraft’s original equipment manufacturer (OEM) proposed an unaffordable scheme that would have required sending the fighters back to Russia, the general said.

One Su-30MKM was used as a testbed to validate the local program. “We found that we could do it at a fraction of the original cost,” Affendi said. “It also reduced our dependence on the Russian OEM.”

But performing the overhauls still requires more funding. “We badly need a bigger budget to carry out this program and to ensure that the Su-30MKMs are at optimal readiness,” he said.

Affendi identified the OEM as Sukhoi. But another part of United Aircraft Corp., Irkut, made the Su-30MKM, a sub-variant special to Malaysia.

ATSC is a joint Malaysian-Russian company operating at the Gong Kedak airbase, 310 km northeast of Kuala Lumpur. The Su-30MKM squadron is based there.

The RMAF also has eight BoeingF/A-18D Hornets. Its 16 MiG-29s were retired in late 2016.


Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 09 Aug 2018 14:08

The comparisons of the Malaysian issue,German issue and others highlight the basic problem of maintaining high performance fighters whether they're from the east or west.Britain junked their entire Nimrod ASW birds,actually sadistically cutting them up (and are now hilariously wanting the French to help them track Ru subs)and have had to acquire P-8s at an even greater cost than that of maintaining the excellent Nimrods.Budgetary woes saw then junk the entire Harrier fleet which the USMC picked up for a steal.Each one of us knows that if you do not maintain your car-and the more expensive German autos cost a small fortune to maintain them,over a lakh for a wing mirror for some models,it won't be on the road,or in the air for aircraft.

The first requirement is a basic national aircraft industry that has years of experience in servicing fighters.India has a robust defence industry spanning over 50 years,Malaysia does not.Seccondly,you have to factor in spares,servicing and operational %ages when you draft the contract with the OEM and the annual maintenance cost. In the case of the Rafale,we're supposedly demanding a min. operational availability %.This was never done in earlier contracts especially with Ru eqpt. to the best of our knowledge. Thus,we saw in recent times,in India at least,the setting up of dedicated service facilities to support such eqpt. ,well stocked with vital spares that were consumed frequently.This is being done for all 3 services and has alleviated the problems to a large extent. Thirdly are the numbers in service.In the Malaysian context their numbers compared with the IAF are miniscule.They could've opted for just one or two types and factored in the maintenance issues from the start.While Malaysia is running into problems,Indonesia is to buy RU fighters,in small numbers! They can learn from the Malaysian experience.One case in point about the MIG-29,wrongly reviled by many.Why did the Germans keep their MIG-29s in service for so long?

"But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircraft’s superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles I’m hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and ‘Archer’ I can’t be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 ‘Archers’. We didn’t operate kill removal (forcing ‘killed’ aircraft to leave the fight) since they’d have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldn’t believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!
https://www.16va.be/mig-29_experience.htm

In India,maintenance of anything owned by the govt. is a dirty word.Right from our govt. buildings,trains,buses-you name it,it is a sad sorry state of affairs. This is due to inadequate funding for such purposes (apart from funds earmarked for such purposes finding their way into the pockets of the politico-babu interests) ,esp. for milware.The classic case in Q are the Kilo subs,were there was an acute crisis ith sub batteries,the shortage leading to them being cannibalised form other subs resulting in a fire in one of them killing some submariners-again during AKA's great time as def. min. Adm.Joshi resigned in disgust at the shoddy treatment of naval issue by the then GOI,taking the blame for what was truly the responsibility of the MOD.Had we bought on the cheap spares and more early retired harriers,we could've still had them in service.The miserly attiude of the MOD when it comes to spares is the result. Arjun MK=1s are reportedly suffering becos firang spares are now becoming increasingly difficult to obtain. Even OEMs do not keep large stocks unsold.They need time to service an order,which in the Indian context takes years sometimes.

After the thrust towards getting more MKIs operational,by improving the maintenance protocol results have been good.The malaysians have to bite the bullet.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1527
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 09 Aug 2018 15:06

Austin wrote:The Team of engineers & maintenance crew are working Day & Night, ensuring flying machines are serviceable & mission capable at all times.

Image



You know your bird is huge when your gang of half a dozen blokes can have a nice party sitting comfortably under her fuselage :)

Thanks for sharing this pic !

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12852
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Lalmohan » 09 Aug 2018 15:30

the Su30's are almost the length of a B737 - or atleast that's what it looks like on the tarmac!

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21906
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2018 17:22

Indian Air Force Pitch Black 2018 Air Exercise Su 30Mki & C-130 Herculas :Indian Defence News Today


Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1409
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kakarat » 10 Aug 2018 15:08

EXCLUSIVE: As India’s Sukhoi Fighters Flex Muscle Abroad, IAF ‘Open’ To 40 More - LIVEFIST

As four Indian Air Force Su-30 MKI fighters roar over northern Australia as part of Exercise Pitch Black 2018, Livefist has learnt that the IAF is looking favourably at a proposal to order 40 more such jets from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which license-builds the jets in western India. The IAF currently operates over 250 Su-30 jets, with the total order of 272 jets to be completed next year.

In February this year, just as the Indian MoD was beginning work on the IAF’s Make-in-India fighter program, HAL made an unsolicited proposal to the Ministry of Defence offering to supply an additional 40 Su-30 jets to the IAF on financial terms matching the current deliveries. While the IAF is yet to formally record its opinion on the proposal, Livefist can confirm that internal discussions are favourable.

A senior IAF officer at the Air Force Headquarters told Livefist, “The Su-30 is undoubtedly the backbone of the air force strength now. The current lot of fighters will soon enter a cycle of upgrades involving both HAL and Sukhoi. Since we have bet on this very capable fighter, there is a view from a planning perspective that it makes sense to acquire at least three more squadrons of the type.“

Internal arguments against the proposal include availability problems that have beset the Su-30 fleet, the aircraft’s footprint and a range of recent technical and maintenance issues that the IAF is hoping to resolve with HAL and Russia. Sukhoi, on its part, has amplified HAL’s proposal for more jets with its own publicity campaign.

The last leg of HAL’s Su-30 production coincides with high turbulence in India’s quest for more fighters. Aside from political warfare over India’s 2016 deal for 36 Rafale jets, the IAF continues to battle dwindling squadron numbers, with a significant number of old MiG-21s to be retired over the next two years. But there’s significant budgetary headwind that has forced the IAF to rejig its purchase priorities. Sources indicate, however, that additional Su-30s would be easier to justify from an expenditure perspective than several other proposals.

While HAL won’t be seeing any ‘action’ in India’s Rafale jet purchase — a bone of political contention now in India’s fraught election season — the company has its hands full. Only days after HAL made its proposal to build more Su-30s for the IAF, the company joined a three-way partnership with Boeing and the Mahindra Group to compete for the Indian government’s Make-in-India fighter program and build the F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet in India. Elsewhere, the company is under pressure to ramp up production rates of the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas to meet IAF order timelines. To be sure, as an HAL executive pointed out, the company’s push to build more Su-30s won’t add any pressure on resources, considering the Nashik production line only builds the Russian jet.

An HAL executive on the Sukhoi build program told Livefist, “Supplying at least three more squadrons of Su-30s from the Nashik facility makes sense in the current circumstances. It is a low risk, low cost option with no variables, with a predictable delivery schedule and existing infrastructure.”

The MoD is likely to take a final decision on HAL’s proposal for 40 more Indian-assembled Su-30s by the end of this year. If the MoD says yes, the IAF will have acquired 312 Su-30s. India has lost a total of eight Su-30 jets in accidents since 2009, the most recent being a brand new jet crashing during pre-delivery trials in June this year.

The Su-30 MKI meanwhile, an Indian staple at war games abroad, is currently flexing muscle at the ongoing Pitch Black 2018 multi-nation exercise in northern Australia. Some pictures from on site:

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 10 Aug 2018 16:59

Kakarat, you beat me to it!!!! :D

Ramana-ji (BRF, ahead of the curve!) please read above and then see your own post from last month ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7630&p=2284506#p2284506

If this goes through, then to address the shortage we need two additional Tejas Mk1A squadrons and two more Rafale squadrons. MMRCA 2.0 is redundant then. I highlight the bolded parts of the article that Kakart posted above....

A senior IAF officer at the Air Force Headquarters told Livefist, "The Su-30 is undoubtedly the backbone of the air force strength now. The current lot of fighters will soon enter a cycle of upgrades involving both HAL and Sukhoi. Since we have bet on this very capable fighter, there is a view from a planning perspective that it makes sense to acquire at least three more squadrons of the type."

The last leg of HAL’s Su-30 production coincides with high turbulence in India’s quest for more fighters. Aside from political warfare over India’s 2016 deal for 36 Rafale jets, the IAF continues to battle dwindling squadron numbers, with a significant number of old MiG-21s to be retired over the next two years. But there’s significant budgetary headwind that has forced the IAF to rejig its purchase priorities. Sources indicate, however, that additional Su-30s would be easier to justify from an expenditure perspective than several other proposals.

The IAF has realized that MMRCA 3.0 will take a LONG time, if EVER, to come into fruition.
To be sure, as an HAL executive pointed out, the company’s push to build more Su-30s won’t add any pressure on resources, considering the Nashik production line only builds the Russian jet.

An HAL executive on the Sukhoi build program told Livefist, “Supplying at least three more squadrons of Su-30s from the Nashik facility makes sense in the current circumstances. It is a low risk, low cost option with no variables, with a predictable delivery schedule and existing infrastructure.”

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 10 Aug 2018 17:05

Reproducing an excerpt from one of my own posts from last month ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7630&p=2284618#p2284618

The main reasons I am advocating for ordering two additional Rafale, Su-30MKI and Tejas squadrons are;;

1) The Rambha production run is better than the Tejas production, as of today. Quicker induction of aircraft, which will result in quicker retirement of the MiG-21.

2) The Rambha production exists and is still churning out aircraft. Tacking on another 40 birds is not hard for the line to complete in a timely fashion. The current production line will complete their 272 order next year.

3) Base infrastructure - to the tune of $2 billion - has already been invested at Ambala and Hasimara. Both airbases can house two squadrons of the Rafale each. The Govt today announced that Rafale deliveries will commence in Sept 2019 and be complete by April 2022. Under three years. If we order another 36 - 44 birds, deliveries of the second batch can be complete by 2025.

4) Adding to the existing inventory of spares, weapons, tools, etc for the Rambha and the Rafale are *MUCH* easier to do, than go through MRCA 3.0 and invest money for *EVERYTHING* in a new type.

5) Ordering these six squadrons are easy on the CAPEX, but gives the IAF what it needs. MRCA 3.0 will kill the Tejas Mk 2.

It is the fear of the Mk 1A (and Mk 2) not coming in on time, that has led the IAF to over take the project from HAL.

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1409
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kakarat » 10 Aug 2018 18:54

Now that both HAL & IAF are talking of 40 more MKIs then the gov too shouldn't have a problem and we could see an order soon. I hope the order is placed for 45+ considering replacements for the ones lost in crashes

A senior IAF officer at the Air Force Headquarters told Livefist, “The Su-30 is undoubtedly the backbone of the air force strength now. The current lot of fighters will soon enter a cycle of upgrades involving both HAL and Sukhoi. Since we have bet on this very capable fighter, there is a view from a planning perspective that it makes sense to acquire at least three more squadrons of the type.“


Or is the IAF considering 60 more, if i am right a MKI squadron has 20 planes

Most of the logic given for more MKIs would also apply for Tejas too once 50% of MK-IA is delivered, Tejas wouldn't need new infrastructure but only little upgradation of already available Mig-21 infra

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2682
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 10 Aug 2018 19:04

Kakarat wrote:Now that both HAL & IAF are talking of 40 more MKIs then the gov too shouldn't have a problem and we could see an order soon. I hope the order is placed for 45+ considering replacements for the ones lost in crashes

A senior IAF officer at the Air Force Headquarters told Livefist, “The Su-30 is undoubtedly the backbone of the air force strength now. The current lot of fighters will soon enter a cycle of upgrades involving both HAL and Sukhoi. Since we have bet on this very capable fighter, there is a view from a planning perspective that it makes sense to acquire at least three more squadrons of the type.“


Or is the IAF considering 60 more, if i am right a MKI squadron has 20 planes


Great start. Really the most logical step IMHO. We’ve sunk a lot of money and effort into indigenizing the line and suppliers of the SU-30 so it makes the most sense to use that in making up any shortfall in IAF.

Tejas should always come first because we own that from blueprint up. But MKI should be a close second. In fact, for the sake of the MIC and the country I would find a way to “nationalize” that ecosystem so we can build and modify Flankers for as many or as long as we deem fit.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50373
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2018 20:29

Great Fridin news!!!

From Live Fist report some key points:

...
In February this year, just as the Indian MoD was beginning work on the IAF’s Make-in-India fighter program, HAL made an unsolicited proposal to the Ministry of Defence offering to supply an additional 40 Su-30 jets to the IAF on financial terms matching the current deliveries. While the IAF is yet to formally record its opinion on the proposal, Livefist can confirm that internal discussions are favourable.


{This is key point. "on financial terms matching current deliveries"!!! That means no price escalation. The new planes will be at same price. Would order sixty and get rid of aircraft "availability"headaches }

A senior IAF officer at the Air Force Headquarters told Livefist, “The Su-30 is undoubtedly the backbone of the air force strength now. The current lot of fighters will soon enter a cycle of upgrades involving both HAL and Sukhoi. Since we have bet on this very capable fighter, there is a view from a planning perspective that it makes sense to acquire at least three more squadrons of the type.“

Internal arguments against the proposal include availability problems that have beset the Su-30 fleet, the aircraft’s footprint and a range of recent technical and maintenance issues that the IAF is hoping to resolve with HAL and Russia. Sukhoi, on its part, has amplified HAL’s proposal for more jets with its own publicity campaign....

{ordering 60 planes increase the availability factor. We already discussed the maintenance factor in previous posts. And spares depot is being setup by Russia and HAL}



I would setup a small planning group at Air Hqs headed by an Air Commodore to look at what upgrades for the SU-30MKI are desirable and kick start the liaison with DRDO and HAL to start creating the black boxes. I would also try to see if the turbofan can be improved. What parts wear out and what should be changed to get longer life. And engage DMRL on Titanium metallurgy to get better spare parts.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1340
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 10 Aug 2018 20:41

We are not doing any technical trials for the MRCA-2 RFP and no SU-57 is coming. This must have given IAF some guarantees(from GoI) that it is getting more western jets , probably more Rafale and money is available.

This clears the path for more SU30. Previous opposition was probably more about diverting money from MRCA-2, than maintenance problems.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21906
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 10 Aug 2018 21:00

ramana wrote:Great Fridin news!!!

From Live Fist report some key points:

...
In February this year, just as the Indian MoD was beginning work on the IAF’s Make-in-India fighter program, HAL made an unsolicited proposal to the Ministry of Defence offering to supply an additional 40 Su-30 jets to the IAF on financial terms matching the current deliveries. While the IAF is yet to formally record its opinion on the proposal, Livefist can confirm that internal discussions are favourable.


{This is key point. "on financial terms matching current deliveries"!!! That means no price escalation. The new planes will be at same price. Would order sixty and get rid of aircraft "availability"headaches }

A senior IAF officer at the Air Force Headquarters told Livefist, “The Su-30 is undoubtedly the backbone of the air force strength now. The current lot of fighters will soon enter a cycle of upgrades involving both HAL and Sukhoi. Since we have bet on this very capable fighter, there is a view from a planning perspective that it makes sense to acquire at least three more squadrons of the type.“

Internal arguments against the proposal include availability problems that have beset the Su-30 fleet, the aircraft’s footprint and a range of recent technical and maintenance issues that the IAF is hoping to resolve with HAL and Russia. Sukhoi, on its part, has amplified HAL’s proposal for more jets with its own publicity campaign....

{ordering 60 planes increase the availability factor. We already discussed the maintenance factor in previous posts. And spares depot is being setup by Russia and HAL}



I would setup a small planning group at Air Hqs headed by an Air Commodore to look at what upgrades for the SU-30MKI are desirable and kick start the liaison with DRDO and HAL to start creating the black boxes. I would also try to see if the turbofan can be improved. What parts wear out and what should be changed to get longer life. And engage DMRL on Titanium metallurgy to get better spare parts.


Ramana , As per HAL AI press , Su-30 peace time availability is aready at 68 % , Thanks in great part due to MP and $250 million packages to build spares/support in India when he was DM.

A new round of nego with MOD is on going to increase MKI availability at 75 % same as Rafale avaibility figures

India, Russia to sign pact on spares for Su 30 fleet, availability could go up to 75%

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 075387.cms

During War Time when war time reserves are used they availability for any type in IAF service will reach those 75 % and much above figures for the time IAF , Just recent ex involving 1000 + types had availability of above 90 %

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50373
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2018 23:41

From your link:

"Under the new contract, after the receipt of a request from the Indian air force, the spare part will be delivered to the air force warehouse within 4-12 months, depending on the time it takes to manufacture the part. As of now, 12 months are required for just to start the production, this will reduce to 30 days," Viacheslav Yu Lozan, After Sale Center Director, Sukhoi said.



its sad that no attention to improve the availability was pushed for by anyone in the whole defence eco-system: MoD, IAF, HAL. All the time the refrain was need more planes. Lets have a competition.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2196
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cybaru » 11 Aug 2018 03:50

It will end the MRCA rubbish for sure. Order 60 more brahmos enabled MKI and 54 more raffies and be done with imports for ever. Add 50/60 f35 in future for Indian navy if need be. Don't make and screwdriver it in India. Don't waste time with that.

Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 233
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Bishwa » 11 Aug 2018 08:30

Kakarat wrote:Now that both HAL & IAF are talking of 40 more MKIs then the gov too shouldn't have a problem and we could see an order soon. I hope the order is placed for 45+ considering replacements for the ones lost in crashes

A senior IAF officer at the Air Force Headquarters told Livefist, “The Su-30 is undoubtedly the backbone of the air force strength now. The current lot of fighters will soon enter a cycle of upgrades involving both HAL and Sukhoi. Since we have bet on this very capable fighter, there is a view from a planning perspective that it makes sense to acquire at least three more squadrons of the type.“


Or is the IAF considering 60 more, if i am right a MKI squadron has 20 planes

Most of the logic given for more MKIs would also apply for Tejas too once 50% of MK-IA is delivered, Tejas wouldn't need new infrastructure but only little upgradation of already available Mig-21 infra



A Su-30 Sqn has 20 aircraft or 16? Being a two seater, they dont need extra trainers which other types need.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2018 08:53

Bishwa, it depends. 18 is the rule of thumb, but that number varies depending on aircraft type and role. Please see examples below;

MiG-25: Six single seaters and two dual seaters formed under No 102 Trisonics Sqn. Retired now, but the squadron has been re-raised with Su-30MKIs and I believe is based at Bareilly AFS.

Mirage 2000: ~ 45 aircraft divided in three squadrons - No 1 Tigers, No 7 Battle Axes and No 9 Wolfpacks. No 9 Sqn is an understrength squadron that converted from the MiG-27.

Mi-26: Only four aircraft in total that serve with 126 Feather Weights HU (Helicopter Unit).

C-17: Only 10 aircraft in No 81 Skylords Squadron

I am assuming that if 40 aircraft are being ordered, it will be for two additional squadrons. If it is 60, then three additional squadrons. But that is just my assumption and not to be taken as fact. Either way, the squadron shortage is addressed (not in terms of numbers, but rather in capability). If we can retire a couple of MiG-21 squadrons and replace them with Su-30MKIs, just imagine the scope of capability that two Rambha squadrons bring to a conflict vs two MiG-21 squadrons. Now if we can do the same with 2 - 3 additional Tejas Mk1A squadrons and two additional Rafale squadrons, MMRCA 3.0 is finished. The cost savings - already proven with the additional Rambha order - is tremendous.

Using the 18 aircraft per squadron rule, a future IAF force (circa 2025) can look like this....

Rambha Sqns: 15 sqns on order/in service + 3 more

Rafale Sqns: 2 sqns on order + 2 more

Tejas Mk 1: 2 sqns on order/in service

Tejas Mk 1A: 4 sqns on order + 2 more

MiG-29UPG: 3 sqns in service

Mirage 2000I/TI: 2.5 sqns in service

Jaguar Darin III: 4.5 sqns in service (the 0.5 is the IM variant of which only 12 were built by HAL)

The above comes to 40 squadrons. Why do you need MMRCA 3.0? :) The only danger I see is Tejas Mk2. They need to adhere to strict deadlines and enforce them. By 2032, the MiG-29s and Mirage 2000s will need begin the process of retirement. If Mk2 is not ready, we are back at square one.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1319
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 11 Aug 2018 17:24

Generally and speaking from the olden days.
A squadron consisted of 4 wings or 4 flights.
each of those consisting of 4 active non-trainer a/c type.

There were definitely and usually 2 a/c of the trainer type.
Attrition replacements were held at a command level.

So what the good admiral is saying.... is true.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Philip » 11 Aug 2018 17:39

We' ve been saying this for aeons! " More of the same in service" to increase numbers, serviceability, cost-effectiveness, etc.At least another 18 to 20 Rafales since we've bought 36, would give us 3 sqds.40 to 60 SU-30s plus as many LCAs that we can build and send the firang req. into the dustbin.With around 120 Jags to also be upgraded, standardising on fewer types in service, adding more numbers of these types when required will give the IAF a leaner profile giving it a higher % of aircraft availability.Post 2020 a decision on a 5th-gen acquiaition can begin.

Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 233
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Bishwa » 12 Aug 2018 07:23

Khalsa wrote:Generally and speaking from the olden days.
A squadron consisted of 4 wings or 4 flights.
each of those consisting of 4 active non-trainer a/c type.

There were definitely and usually 2 a/c of the trainer type.
Attrition replacements were held at a command level.

So what the good admiral is saying.... is true.


The Su-30 Sqn don't need the 2a/c of the trainer type. They are all two seater and can be used for training.

So do Su-30 Sqns have 16 or 18?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21906
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2018 07:43

16 , 18 ,20 depends , average is 18 aircraft per squadron

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1319
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 12 Aug 2018 13:18

Bishwa wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Generally and speaking from the olden days.
A squadron consisted of 4 wings or 4 flights.
each of those consisting of 4 active non-trainer a/c type.

There were definitely and usually 2 a/c of the trainer type.
Attrition replacements were held at a command level.

So what the good admiral is saying.... is true.


The Su-30 Sqn don't need the 2a/c of the trainer type. They are all two seater and can be used for training.

So do Su-30 Sqns have 16 or 18?



Hmmm
18 would be considered an overstrength squadron and would be a frontline squadron like ANC or Eastern Command.
If a squadron did have 20 .... that's a squadron with 1/4th extra aircraft of the next squadron.
I would question it. I doubt we have a 20 a/c squadron for Su-30.

Last not least.... is any SU-30 capable of imparting training and contain dual controls for emergency take over of flight controls ?

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2641
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby kit » 12 Aug 2018 14:27

The new MKI s could be a different variant.. incorporate elements of the Rafales avionics ..

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7833
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 12 Aug 2018 16:24

kit wrote:The new MKI s could be a different variant.. incorporate elements of the Rafales avionics ..


The Russians will permit it??

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2641
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby kit » 12 Aug 2018 16:28

I don't see why not..the MKI already has sagem and Thales equipment..the Rafales avionics would be a natural progression.. alternately versions of Israeli equipment for their F35 comes to mind

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21906
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2018 16:37

More like advanced Indian Avionics and Su-35 avionics in it , will have to see the final package

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1022
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 13 Aug 2018 08:37

I have a feeling that additional Sukhoi orders are not being placed because of some dispute regarding not only spare parts availability but also transfer of technology to India to manufacture most of the spare parts within India itself.

I think we should continue with Sukhoi line if possible as it is not only a formidable air dominance aircraft but can also be used as a replacement of Jaguar from 2030 onwards when the Jaguar aircraft start retiring

Upgrading old airplanes make sense only if the upgrade is cheap but if upgrade is near the cost of a new aircraft then we have to re evaluate our priorities

I think that we should concentrate only on two lines of aircraft being Sukhoi and LCA till AMCA & Ghatak reach production status in 2040

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1022
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 13 Aug 2018 14:10

we must understand that costing of repair and maintenance in India is different from the costing of repair and maintenance in European countries

In India the cost of labour is low while in European Nation a cost of labour is extremely high. therefore the cost of labour becomes an important factor in repair and maintenance of aircraft in western world while it may not be Such an important factor in India

The cost of spare parts of Mirage 2000 aircraft per annum seems to be around 1 million dollars while the estimated cost of spare parts of Rafale aircraft per annum seems to be around 5 million dollars

On the other hand Russian aircraft require midlife overhauls which may not be requisite for western aircraft

I am not able to calculate the data for cost of spare parts for Sukhoi but my estimate is of Rupees 1 crore per annum for 100 hours flying time along with average cost of 10 million dollars after every 10 years for midlife overhaul. In addition Russian aircraft are heavier on fuel and labour cost so I have added, around rupees 2 crore per annum. Extrapolating these figures and making some guessmates I think that cost of repair and maintenance of Sukhoi aircraft would be around 2 million dollars keeping in view mid life upgrades, fuel cost, labour costs and additional downtime. This means that the Purchase cost and life cycle maintenance cost of Sukhoi aircraft would be near Mirage 2000 while being roughly half of Rafale aircraft

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1022
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 13 Aug 2018 17:33

I think our replacement plan should be as follows:-

Mig21 to be replaced by LCA MK 1 & LCA MK1A
MIG 29 & Mirage 2000 by LCA MK 2
Jaguars should be replaced by additional Su30MKI as both Ghatak, AMCA are too far away & Rafales are costly.

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2252
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Katare » 13 Aug 2018 19:40

There is truth in your line of thinking but with that said we need to remember that everyone knows that labor cost is low in India but productivity is also low. Add the small foot print and dependence on foreign firm for expertise and certification and you endup with usually more expensive product/services than OEM.

HAL productcost more than import is one example. MRCA. Rafale deal falling apart because of higher man-hour quoted by HAL is another instance.Russiann Kilo sub upgrade in India was hugely more expensive than what was done at Russia, it may be due to Russian shenanigans but still we end up with same results.

Another indicator is the recent trend of buying support package as annual contract with the product from OEM- Rafale, P8, C17 etc

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1409
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Kakarat » 14 Aug 2018 13:52

Image

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1589
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby andy B » 14 Aug 2018 14:11

Hot damn Kakarat many thanks for posting this! Tum jiyo hazzaro saat.

The turbo cat is back! Man I cant even recall how long ago was Swat Cats yeeeesshhhh! :rotfl: great memories of watching the boys swatting jets out of the skies.

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1062
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby rkhanna » 14 Aug 2018 14:36

andy B wrote:Hot damn Kakarat many thanks for posting this! Tum jiyo hazzaro saat.

The turbo cat is back! Man I cant even recall how long ago was Swat Cats yeeeesshhhh! :rotfl: great memories of watching the boys swatting jets out of the skies.


Kats ;p

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50373
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 15 Aug 2018 00:58

Ok Here is a Su-30 Cutaway sketch.


https://conceptbunny.com/sukhoi-su-30/

So which parts can be made out of composites to cut down the weight?
Goal should be 2.0 tonnes with 3 tonnes as stretch goal.
Print it out on 11x17 paper and color them with the different parts for the composites.

Think of graphite and fiberglass. Resins are epoxy and phenolic for high temperature areas.

Picklu
BRFite
Posts: 1714
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Picklu » 16 Aug 2018 20:36

Khalsa wrote:
Bishwa wrote:
The Su-30 Sqn don't need the 2a/c of the trainer type. They are all two seater and can be used for training.

So do Su-30 Sqns have 16 or 18?



Hmmm
18 would be considered an overstrength squadron and would be a frontline squadron like ANC or Eastern Command.
If a squadron did have 20 .... that's a squadron with 1/4th extra aircraft of the next squadron.
I would question it. I doubt we have a 20 a/c squadron for Su-30.

Last not least.... is any SU-30 capable of imparting training and contain dual controls for emergency take over of flight controls ?


Each squadron would have a few extra as War Wastage Reserve

Eric Leiderman
BRFite
Posts: 358
Joined: 26 Nov 2010 08:56

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Eric Leiderman » 16 Aug 2018 22:33

https://theprint.in/opinion/how-four-gr ... -30/17913/

How 3 political dispensations worked behind closed doors in the interest of the nations defence, leaving political brownie points aside.
This is about the sukhoi purchase

So different from today

vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3240
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby vijayk » 16 Aug 2018 23:22

Eric Leiderman wrote:https://theprint.in/opinion/how-four-great-indians-from-rival-parties-saved-sukhoi-30/17913/

How 3 political dispensations worked behind closed doors in the interest of the nations defence, leaving political brownie points aside.
This is about the sukhoi purchase

So different from today


That's because it is not dynasty that is involved in the whole thing. Everyone else cared about India. Now current Congress leadership is beyond any ethics

Raman
BRFite
Posts: 261
Joined: 06 Mar 2001 12:31
Location: Niyar kampootar onlee

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Raman » 18 Aug 2018 01:38

ramana wrote:Ok Here is a Su-30 Cutaway sketch.


https://conceptbunny.com/sukhoi-su-30/

So which parts can be made out of composites to cut down the weight?
Goal should be 2.0 tonnes with 3 tonnes as stretch goal.
Print it out on 11x17 paper and color them with the different parts for the composites.

Think of graphite and fiberglass. Resins are epoxy and phenolic for high temperature areas.


The diagram is mislabeled - it is a Su-33 - not a Su-30.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50373
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 18 Aug 2018 03:10

Can we find a proper one?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5690
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 23 Aug 2018 22:44

Important update on the Super Sukhoi upgrade....

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 2791014402 ---> On the IAF's Su-30MKI upgrade — Rosoboronexport has received the list of requirements and has agreed to almost everything. Upgrade can be synced to overhaul cycles or even new builds, if ordered in time. Either entirely executed by HAL or with some Irkut involvement.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Indranil and 35 guests