Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 04 Sep 2019 12:46

Austin wrote:More details on R-27 AAM upgrades


This is a great find. Basically, the R27 Upgrades have been tested in Syria and have been found to be valuable.
They are upgrading the propulsion as well. Says the kinematic performance will match the latest AMRAAM C's.

The R27P is considered to be passive, this report says active. Any more information?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 04 Sep 2019 12:47

SajeevJino wrote:

Please don't make silly posts and take down the quality of the forum. The IAF Su-30 MKI's field the Litening G4, and can also deploy Kh-29 L/T, KAB-500/1500, Griffin, Kh-59ME, and soon the Brahmos, SPICE as well.


Please wake me up , when this happens , lets see if we have options to strike Bahawalpur or any other targets deep behind enemy line, which Aircraft goes


One can't wake someone up deliberately pretending to be asleep. You are being banned for pointless disruptive posts, come back after 2 weeks once your head clears up.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby vonkabra » 04 Sep 2019 14:42

Austin wrote:At MAKS 2019 , RVV-BD LRAAM and R-77-1 BVRAAM on Su-35 Wings


Very interesting - first I've seen the RVV-BD on a Sukhoi. Is the missile actually in production let alone operational on the Su-35 or is this another "run it up the flagpole" exercise?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2019 15:00

Well there were reports that IAF tested RVV-BD, MD and SD in the beginning of June 2019. Hopefully it will be in inventory and the aircraft with Call sign "VigIl" will soon perish to it.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 04 Sep 2019 15:25

vonkabra wrote:
Austin wrote:At MAKS 2019 , RVV-BD LRAAM and R-77-1 BVRAAM on Su-35 Wings


Very interesting - first I've seen the RVV-BD on a Sukhoi. Is the missile actually in production let alone operational on the Su-35 or is this another "run it up the flagpole" exercise?


This is a derivative of the existing long stick for the MiG-31BM, as such the missile will require relatively less testing and is an upgrade. Expect it to be operational soon.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 04 Sep 2019 16:45

fanne wrote:...
3. It is still a 4+ generation design (no LO) with avionics and other tech which was cutting edge as of 2005, but now we are in 2020 (think AESA, fusion, AA weapons (like meteor), towed decoys etc.)
...


According to the court testimony given by senior IAF officers recently, they had classified Su-30MKI and LCA as 3.5Gen.

Rafale case: IAF officers emphasise in Supreme Court need for 4th, 5th generation fighter jets
...
Indian Air Force (IAF) officers on Wednesday emphasised in the Supreme Court the need for induction of ‘four plus or fifth’ generation fighter aircraft like Rafale, which have niche stealth technology and enhanced electronic warfare capabilities. Top IAF officers — Air Vice Marshall J Chalapati, Air Marshal Anil Khosla and Deputy Chief of Air staff, Air Marshal V R Chaudhari — had to rush to the apex court at short notice after a bench headed by Chief Justice Ranjan Gogoi said it wished to interact with IAF officers as the controversy over the Rafale deal concerns them.

They told the bench that Sukhoi 30s is the latest to be inducted which is a 3.5 generation aircraft and said the IAF does not have fourth or fifth generation aircraft.
...

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2019 17:07

That is as per IAF's definition of what 4th and 5th generation aircraft and remember this was INC and BIF folks for its petty reasons where trying to cancel the Rafale deal which with its RBE-2 Radar, scalp, Metoer, relatively low radar signature, PBL 75% uptime, brings some advantages to the IAF. So you cant place reliance on such systems, IAF can define 4th gen to have AESA radar.

https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/rafale-case-iaf-officers-emphasise-in-supreme-court-need-for-4th-5th-generation-fighter-jets/1381948/

Chalapati, who appeared before the bench also comprising Justices Sanjay Kishan Kaul and K M Joseph, answered all the questions asked by the CJI about the induction of fighter jets by India.

He said the country needs the fifth generation aircraft, which have niche stealth technology and enhanced electronic warfare capabilities.


Chalapati said there is no clear definition of generation and as he has flied the LCA which according to him is three and half generation aircraft.

He said both LCA and Su-30MKI are three and half and fourth generation aircrafts respectively but the requirement of IAF at present is of four plus or fifth generations aircrafts.


This is not an IAF but the Testimony of 1 Officer of the IAF, in his opinion LCA is 3.5 Gen and SU-30 MKI is 4th Gen

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 04 Sep 2019 17:30

^^^
He may be 1 Officer but was representing the IAF in court as a senior most exec i.e. AVM.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Sep 2019 17:33

But there is a context, he clearly states SU-30 MKI as 4th Gen and probably referring to LCA IOC as 3.5 Gen, Rafale is definitely critical for IAF and he had to defend the deal. Prashant Bhushan's and et al would have loved to cancel it.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 04 Sep 2019 18:42

IAF officers seem to have their own definitions of "Generations of Fighters". And that definition is not in sync with the typical definitions we are used to in general. The impression I get it, their definition is linked to the current proven capability of a Fighter rather than technology level of it or the final intended capability. Should be interesting to pose question to some IAF pilots on Twitter about it. The generation definitions are quite lose and its perfectly fine to have own definitions, but I have never seen any document from IAF spelling out what is matrix against which they evaluate the Fighters to decide its generation. I have never seen anyone other than IAF classify LCA as a less than 4th Gen aircraft.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Prithwiraj » 04 Sep 2019 19:31

All marketing fluffs ... 5+ but not 6 is another of these.... tired corporate sales pitch -- happens across the industry... throwing some random terms without benchmarks to clueless listener... who is going to decide the next course --- means business having funding but no clue of technology ...types...

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srin » 04 Sep 2019 19:50

Karan M wrote:
ramana wrote:Why are they worried about costs like accountants?
Its the job of Raksha Mantri to take care of costs.
IAF should worry about squadron strengths with whats available.

I think 300:200:100

could be future ratio
and get rid of these menagerie of aircraft for specific purpose.
That would be a real cost saver.


Given the IAF's Opex problems (I had posted the numbers before), they really have no other option.
The MKI is already a full 50% of our fleet, overdependence on it is also not advisable.


Can you please re-post that again ?
There is something about all eggs in ruski basket, but I don't understand the too much opex problem. Typically, in a corporate scenario, opex is way easier than capex.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby sudeepj » 04 Sep 2019 21:43

JayS wrote:IAF officers seem to have their own definitions of "Generations of Fighters". And that definition is not in sync with the typical definitions we are used to in general. The impression I get it, their definition is linked to the current proven capability of a Fighter rather than technology level of it or the final intended capability. Should be interesting to pose question to some IAF pilots on Twitter about it. The generation definitions are quite lose and its perfectly fine to have own definitions, but I have never seen any document from IAF spelling out what is matrix against which they evaluate the Fighters to decide its generation. I have never seen anyone other than IAF classify LCA as a less than 4th Gen aircraft.


When the budget is requested, its a corvette. When budget overruns and delays happen, its a frigate. When going to battle, its a destroyer. When sunk, its a corvette again. :rotfl:

That dynamic may be at work here.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 04 Sep 2019 22:59

...
I have never seen anyone other than IAF classify LCA as a less than 4th Gen aircraft.

Three-legged Cheetah
MiG-21++

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Vivek K » 04 Sep 2019 23:03

Tragic that the IAF prefers such expensive white elephants over good domestic solutions. The impact of colonialism and 200 years of slavery perhaps.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Prithwiraj » 04 Sep 2019 23:16

IAF and Defense personnel are not insulated from general Indian society and its apparent strength and weaknesses --- outside Defense subjects. They were born and raised in the same society and having the same experiences of corruption, fault in the "systems", babu culture, no apparent trust on engineering skills of DRDO or HAL. It is unrealistic to assume they are a different breed.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Sep 2019 23:43

Karan M wrote:
SajeevJino wrote:
Please wake me up , when this happens , lets see if we have options to strike Bahawalpur or any other targets deep behind enemy line, which Aircraft goes


One can't wake someone up deliberately pretending to be asleep. You are being banned for pointless disruptive posts, come back after 2 weeks once your head clears up.

Obnoxious dude derailing the thread. Thanks Karan

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 05 Sep 2019 01:39

KaranM, One request. I am unable to find the SPICE version used on Su-30MKI. I recall it was announced in 2017.

Sorry got it:

viewtopic.php?p=2222332#p2222332

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 05 Sep 2019 13:15

Chief on Su-30MKI

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/ ... rvice.html

Upgrades of MiG jets satisfactory'

When asked about the status of Russian-origin weapons in the Indian Air Force by Krasnaya Zvezda, Dhanoa said the Indian Air Force was “very pleased” with the upgrade programmes of the MiG-21, MiG-27 and MiG-29. All these aircraft have been upgraded over the past two decades with new weapons and electronics.

Dhanoa said the Indian Air Force had used their aircraft in recent exercises and was “very pleased with the results”. He added India had requested Russia to submit proposals for the modernisation of the Su-30MKI fighter. The Su-30MKI is numerically the most important fighter in the Indian Air Force, with over 250 units in service.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 05 Sep 2019 14:25

srai wrote:
fanne wrote:...
3. It is still a 4+ generation design (no LO) with avionics and other tech which was cutting edge as of 2005, but now we are in 2020 (think AESA, fusion, AA weapons (like meteor), towed decoys etc.)
...


According to the court testimony given by senior IAF officers recently, they had classified Su-30MKI and LCA as 3.5Gen.

Rafale case: IAF officers emphasise in Supreme Court need for 4th, 5th generation fighter jets


That is so convenient when hankering for a new import. Just re-classify the homemade ones! When we got into the MKI screwdriver giri it was proclaimed as one of the TOP 4th gen aircraft in the world. Now that it is 70% Indian-made, it is 3.5 gen. The ploy is so cynical that it is laughable.

But it is ultimately very sad to me that the IAF is like one of those white-washed NRI boys who will always be on the lookout for the gori girl while ignoring the desi one.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ldev » 05 Sep 2019 18:36

chola wrote:
srai wrote:
According to the court testimony given by senior IAF officers recently, they had classified Su-30MKI and LCA as 3.5Gen.

Rafale case: IAF officers emphasise in Supreme Court need for 4th, 5th generation fighter jets


That is so convenient when hankering for a new import. Just re-classify the homemade ones! When we got into the MKI screwdriver giri it was proclaimed as one of the TOP 4th gen aircraft in the world. Now that it is 70% Indian-made, it is 3.5 gen. The ploy is so cynical that it is laughable.

But it is ultimately very sad to me that the IAF is like one of those white-washed NRI boys who will always be on the lookout for the gori girl while ignoring the desi one.


All armed forces all over the world downplay their capabilities and assets to improve their chances of getting more funding for newer and more weapons. Have you forgotten about the constant barrage of "missile gap" "space race gap" by the USAF during the Cold War? That was so that they got additional funding. The difference is that all the additional funding they got was for procurement from their domestic industry. Whereas for India the purchases will be a combination of local production and imports. Don't blame the IAF. They are just likel all airforces all over the world. Somebody has to make a judgment call on whether the LCA and SU-30MKI are really 3.5G and what that designation translates into in terms of actual capability.

Also, what say does the IAF have in how HAL is organized or how HAL run's it's business? The IAF's primary responsibility is the defence of India. It is not the development of a domestic industry. So the focus has to be on those in power/authority whose job is to balance these two objectives.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby VikramA » 05 Sep 2019 19:13

ldev wrote:
chola wrote:
That is so convenient when hankering for a new import. Just re-classify the homemade ones! When we got into the MKI screwdriver giri it was proclaimed as one of the TOP 4th gen aircraft in the world. Now that it is 70% Indian-made, it is 3.5 gen. The ploy is so cynical that it is laughable.

But it is ultimately very sad to me that the IAF is like one of those white-washed NRI boys who will always be on the lookout for the gori girl while ignoring the desi one.


All armed forces all over the world downplay their capabilities and assets to improve their chances of getting more funding for newer and more weapons. Have you forgotten about the constant barrage of "missile gap" "space race gap" by the USAF during the Cold War? That was so that they got additional funding. The difference is that all the additional funding they got was for procurement from their domestic industry. Whereas for India the purchases will be a combination of local production and imports. Don't blame the IAF. They are just likel all airforces all over the world. Somebody has to make a judgment call on whether the LCA and SU-30MKI are really 3.5G and what that designation translates into in terms of actual capability.

Also, what say does the IAF have in how HAL is organized or how HAL run's it's business? The IAF's primary responsibility is the defence of India. It is not the development of a domestic industry. So the focus has to be on those in power/authority whose job is to balance these two objectives.


generally the definition of generation accepted internationally is:

5 Gen: some stealth characteristic, internal weapons bay, super cruise, AESA radar,360 MAWS+ networked
4.5 Gen: AESA radar, 360 MAWS, comprehensive EW suite + self protection suite( SPJ+Towed decoy), highly networked
4 Gen: powerful PESA radar, RWS, Basic self protection suite+ multirole+ some level of networking+ BVR capable+ IRST

by these standards SU-30 MKI is a solid 4th gen aircraft. only the upgraded super SU-30 MKI can be termed as a 4.5 gen. Rafale is 4.5 gen too, where as tejas mk1 because of lack of IRST can be termed as 3.5 gen. even tejas MK1A without IRST , 360 MAWS and towed decoy will not be a true 4.5 gen in a way. only Tejas MWF due to fly in 2025 will be a 4.5 gen aircraft

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 22:43

srin wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Given the IAF's Opex problems (I had posted the numbers before), they really have no other option.
The MKI is already a full 50% of our fleet, overdependence on it is also not advisable.


Can you please re-post that again ?
There is something about all eggs in ruski basket, but I don't understand the too much opex problem. Typically, in a corporate scenario, opex is way easier than capex.


Long story short, IAF is pressurized on both its revenue and capex budget. Revenue budget is where fuel, spares costs for existing eqpt come from. If the overall IAF budget doesn't increase, and it buys more and more Flankers, its revenue budget is getting affected.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 22:45

ldev wrote:Also, what say does the IAF have in how HAL is organized or how HAL run's it's business? The IAF's primary responsibility is the defence of India. It is not the development of a domestic industry. So the focus has to be on those in power/authority whose job is to balance these two objectives.


This could have been true in an utopian world. But in reality, IAF needs to have officers conversant with the fact that domestic sourcing is directly tied to their combat capability and Govt's freedom of action. If their policies keep affecting this, then there is something wrong.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 05 Sep 2019 22:52

Guys why are we even discussing this generation stuff. Both Rafale and EF were marketed as 4.5 Gen. One had a PESA system, other a Mech system. Today one has AESA, its still 4.5 Gen. All these designations are meaningless to a degree as 4Gen + upgrades (like the latest F-15s) can comfortably take on some on the fancy 4Gen platforms.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ldev » 06 Sep 2019 00:28

Karan M wrote:
ldev wrote:Also, what say does the IAF have in how HAL is organized or how HAL run's it's business? The IAF's primary responsibility is the defence of India. It is not the development of a domestic industry. So the focus has to be on those in power/authority whose job is to balance these two objectives.


This could have been true in an utopian world. But in reality, IAF needs to have officers conversant with the fact that domestic sourcing is directly tied to their combat capability and Govt's freedom of action. If their policies keep affecting this, then there is something wrong.


What about MOD having domain experts who can question the services and their requirements as opposed to IAS bureaucrats. People like yourself :)

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2019 04:04

ramana wrote:KaranM, One request. I am unable to find the SPICE version used on Su-30MKI. I recall it was announced in 2017.

Sorry got it:

viewtopic.php?p=2222332#p2222332


That image is not loading.
Can some one find it for me?
srai, you posted the original.

Thanks, ramana

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 06 Sep 2019 05:06

VikramA wrote:
where as tejas mk1 because of lack of IRST can be termed as 3.5 gen.


:rotfl:
F22 never got IRST
F35 now getting under chin as an afterthought http://alert5.com/2016/03/08/lockheed-m ... f-15-f-35/

So
LACK OF IRST = 3.5 Generation?
:rotfl:

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby gpurewal » 06 Sep 2019 06:45

I was looking through a few posts by a certain user to whom Karan had responded to and shut down (in a good manner), but the user's post did raise a certain question which I was hoping that the gurus could shed some light into it.

From all that I have read regarding the Su 30 and the combat exercises it has performed with other nations, it seems like the mock combat was performed in visual range, since the BARS would be in Standby mode. How does the IAF train for BVR, especially with the Su 30?

Would I be wrong to think that BVR exercises are performed with Su 30 vs Su 30 and Su 30 vs MIG 21 (roughly simulate the profile of the F 16)? and the results never released in order to protect vital information/data?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby manjgu » 06 Sep 2019 07:36

even in standby/training mode, the SU radar is quite capable. thats what is used for BVR in excercises with foreign AF's !

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 06 Sep 2019 08:35

gpurewal wrote:

Would I be wrong to think that BVR exercises are performed with Su 30 vs Su 30 and Su 30 vs MIG 21



Why not vs jaguar, Mirage & Baaz too ?

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby brar_w » 06 Sep 2019 09:09

Manish_Sharma wrote:
VikramA wrote:
where as tejas mk1 because of lack of IRST can be termed as 3.5 gen.


:rotfl:
F22 never got IRST
F35 now getting under chin as an afterthought http://alert5.com/2016/03/08/lockheed-m ... f-15-f-35/

So
LACK OF IRST = 3.5 Generation?
:rotfl:


F-35 always had an EOTS mounted on that location from the very beginning since an integrated EOTS (A2A and IRST functions) was a requirement from the very start of the program. It was never an afterthought. The USAF initially wanted to save money and only include it as an optional LRU on some aircraft but the US Navy won that battle and it went into each and every production aircraft (in the requirements phase itself). The location at the bottom is so that it can perform the dual missions. Besides, the US Navy has operated IRST sensors in that locatoin before on the F-14 and F-4 and that is where the USAF wanted it on the F-22 and F-23. On the F-35 this is not of concern since it does not operate alone and there is seamless exchange of raw data between a four ship etc so a wide airspace is covered.

The F-22 still has room for an IRST and I believe an IR sensor upgrade is in its road map, but you are right the General Electric (now Lockheed Martin) IRST was cancelled as a cost cutting measure with the capability deferred to later blocks along with side viewing cheek radars but space, weight and power are provisioned for both.
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Sep 2019 01:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 06 Sep 2019 12:02

vonkabra wrote:
Austin wrote:At MAKS 2019 , RVV-BD LRAAM and R-77-1 BVRAAM on Su-35 Wings


Very interesting - first I've seen the RVV-BD on a Sukhoi. Is the missile actually in production let alone operational on the Su-35 or is this another "run it up the flagpole" exercise?



RVV-BD is an export variant of R-37M operation on Mig-31M for some time , There is not much difference other than RVV-BD is range restricted to 200Km over 300 km plus range of R-37M.

RVV-BD has dual band seeker ( X/K ) and Dual Propulsion Motor

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 06 Sep 2019 14:05

gpurewal wrote:I was looking through a few posts by a certain user to whom Karan had responded to and shut down (in a good manner), but the user's post did raise a certain question which I was hoping that the gurus could shed some light into it.

From all that I have read regarding the Su 30 and the combat exercises it has performed with other nations, it seems like the mock combat was performed in visual range, since the BARS would be in Standby mode. How does the IAF train for BVR, especially with the Su 30?

Would I be wrong to think that BVR exercises are performed with Su 30 vs Su 30 and Su 30 vs MIG 21 (roughly simulate the profile of the F 16)? and the results never released in order to protect vital information/data?

Thanks in advance.


IAF has used Su-30 MKI in BVR in most exercises. I had a huge post on it someplace..

Bars has had a training mode for many years now.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2008/11 ... -hand.html

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 06 Sep 2019 14:07

ldev wrote:
Karan M wrote:
This could have been true in an utopian world. But in reality, IAF needs to have officers conversant with the fact that domestic sourcing is directly tied to their combat capability and Govt's freedom of action. If their policies keep affecting this, then there is something wrong.


What about MOD having domain experts who can question the services and their requirements as opposed to IAS bureaucrats. People like yourself :)



Thanks for the kind words, I don't consider myself half as aware as I should be, but I echo your point that the time has really come to have folks who can see the big picture (could be from services/R&D/external etc) who try to tie together all our policies. Perhaps the CDS might help in some way but we really need to be aware of how future warfare is shaping up, and even what our neighbours are doing. Some of our procurement decisions, our policies are still stuck in the past.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby vonkabra » 06 Sep 2019 14:33

Austin wrote:
RVV-BD is an export variant of R-37M operation on Mig-31M for some time , There is not much difference other than RVV-BD is range restricted to 200Km over 300 km plus range of R-37M.

RVV-BD has dual band seeker ( X/K ) and Dual Propulsion Motor


Thanks for the clarification. Given that there's still no confirmation on whether the new R-27s we are getting are the active guided versions, hope we get these for our Su-30MKIs soon. And the photo you posted is possibly the only one on the net showing the RVV-BD on a Sukhoi - a rare scoop indeed.

Yogi_G
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby Yogi_G » 06 Sep 2019 14:42

Can we now take it that the KS-172 rumours have all but died out and there will never be an integration of it with the MKIs?

gpurewal
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby gpurewal » 07 Sep 2019 00:11

Karan M wrote:
IAF has used Su-30 MKI in BVR in most exercises. I had a huge post on it someplace..

Bars has had a training mode for many years now.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2008/11 ... -hand.html


Thanks Karan!

JayS
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby JayS » 14 Sep 2019 14:04

What is this ugly looking (unpainted??) patch on Su30MKI for, below the cockpit..?? Many Su30MKI have them but not all.

Image

srai
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Postby srai » 14 Sep 2019 14:17

^^^
I think it’s for gun shield. Gun is located around that area.

Image
Last edited by srai on 14 Sep 2019 14:21, edited 1 time in total.


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