Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jun 2020 21:31

In a first, Flying Officer Tejaswi Ranga Rao becomes Indian Air Force’s first weapons systems officer
https://www.indiasentinels.com/air-forc ... stone-4293
26 June 2020

basant · Post by **basant** » 01 Jul 2020 09:17

Do not remember seeing (or might have missed) an interesting thread posted on Twitter. So I am just reposting the link.

Tweet thread by Firestarter

nishant.gupta · Post by **nishant.gupta** » 01 Jul 2020 12:06

basant wrote:Do not remember seeing (or might have missed) an interesting thread posted on Twitter. So I am just reposting the link.

Tweet thread by Firestarter

Really an interesting thread. Also goes to show how much an already amazing piece of hardware can benefit from local tech being developed for LCA. This is why local R&D becomes so so so important and essential.

basant · Post by **basant** » 01 Jul 2020 13:04

I am just posting the thread by Firestarter here as it may be of interest yet again. Admins, please delete if this is redundant.

Firestarter @Firezstarter1
6:19 AM · Jan 20, 2020·

In surge ops, the IAF demonstrated almost cent per cent serviceability, high dispatch rates. Credit for this hoes to the troika of IAF, MOD, HAL and of course, the late RM Mr Parrikar who pushed for HAL to maintain spares stockpiles to raise Su-30 readiness rates. (2/n)

With further agreements with Russia, spares production is now being moved to more Indian firms allowing for more economical linger term maintenance contracts, and even higher readiness rates of the order of 75% and above. (3/n)

What makes the Flanker H so important to the IAF beyond its raw performance, is its combination of persistence, further aided by AAR (the aircraft can themselves carry Cobham UK pods), plus its phenomenal weapons carrying capability (8Tons) and above.

The design is particularly suited for upgrades even though it remains highly potent. Multiple accounts of its performance in India and the west, make mention of both it's long range radar, its raw performance and power, apart from the skill of the Indian pilots who flew them.

The Flankers boast a huge multi-role weapons package. In IAF service, while called Air Dominance platforms by virtue of their primary role, it mustn't be forgotten they field PGMs (Kh-29, KAB-500/1500 EO/LGBs, Griffin LGBs, Kh-59 ASMs), CMs (Brahmos land/antiship), Kh31s ..

The IAF is now adding an entirely new suite of homegrown weapons for long range strike. These include the 100km ranged SAAW (16 per Su30), 100 km, 1Ton glide bombs, and brand new ARMs - NGARM with wideband attack capability.

The domestic upgrades also include a more reliable RWR, to replace the original Russian and Tarang series unit, to be followed by an all new digital design currently in trials, which will be the defacto standard and can even detect LPI radars.

The other upgrades are a new domestic SPJ, based off of the work on the MiG-29 and LCA programs which saw a modular design with different power ratings being fitted to different classes of aircraft. The IAF is pleased with the fit on the MiG29 which bodes well for the Flanker.

A full blown Su-30 upgrade would also include a new radar, new large cockpit displays, either Indian or Russian, based off of the Su35. A new domestic IRST is in the works, and new engines would be added, funds permitting.

In terms of AAM additions, the Su30 will likely receive the ASRAAM, the Astra has been inducted already, addressing the IAFs gap vis a vis the SD10A/AMRAAM C5, but more inductions are also likely, with options such as the Derby ER, to newer Astra variants and the RVV-BD.

The Flankers are already datalinked, they have the Polyot which allows flights of Flankers to share targeting information, designate, attack. However, IAF is now standardizing on it's new Operational Data Link, Israeli hardware/Indian software, a far more advanced system.

With a mix of TVC, HMS and the R73/ASRAAM combination in the close in fight, plus the plethora of BVR options on the table, in service, the Flankers are bound to remain very dangerous opponents for a long while. The 1 mtr dia antenna makes the Flanker radar a potent VLO counter.

In fact, with newer P/AESA tech, higher power alternators, it is very likely the IAF Su30 upgrades will act as long range "eyes" for IAF strike packages in areas where AWACs coverage may not be feasible. And also pick up low observable targets at range.

The IAFs Flankers are nearest in terms of comparison to the F15 E Eagles operated by the USAF and the specialized Eagles used by the IDFAF. Its instructor to watch how the Indian aero industry is using the LCA to propel itself, the same way the Israelis used their Lavi, Kfir.

The original Su-30 MKI used the Mission computer, Display Processor, RWR and other avionics developed for the LCA Tech Demo. Today's Su30s will receive far more advanced systems again developed via the LCA, parallel programs, as upgrades.

The one thing that the IAF has yet not implemented in the Su30, but likely will, over time, are NLOS SATCOM datalinks. These will allow the Su30s to act as distributed mission controllers and soak up, retransmit sensor data they pick up.

India's UAV program under development has a SATCOM datalink, as does its AEW&C. While some of the hardware is imported, increasing familiarity with the tech., in the tactical arena will likely have the IAF move towards using its Flankers as battlefield, C3I managers.

HAL and its private partners are developing swarm drones. More options wre also likely to be available ex-import. The AURA program is picking up steam with GTRE looking towards firming up powerplant development. Latency advantages would support frontline Su30s as controllers.

Then there are the EW roles. The Su30s already carry huge SAP518 SPJs (likely to be replaced by a new Indian unit) and SAP14 escort jammers. With new facilities coming up, and greater experience in fielding high power AESAs, more domestic options are likely.

With a mix of EW, Spice, NGARM, SAAW, Astra - packs of Flankers would act as both Suppressive/Destructive platforms vs opponent AD assets, able to retarget on-the-fly. India recently launched its first ELINT sat for radar data. Has multi-spectral sats for geo-location as well.

In short, the Flanker fleet will remain the backbone of a revamped IAF fleet, able to act as the core of any offensive strike package.

None of this hardware would be as useful as it can be, without the IAF investing heavily in its frontline crews. The IAF now has Full Mission sims for its Flankers set up in AFB. Its Su30 carry ACMI and have participated in exercises across the west and in India.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jul 2020 18:51

Rs 10,730 crore for 12 Su-30MKI built by HAL - that's $1.4 Billion for 12 aircraft. Is this the Super Sukhoi upgrade - $120 million seems pretty step as the normal Su-30MKI built from raw material comes to USD $70 million a piece?

DAC approves capital acquisition of various platforms & equipment worth Rs 38,900 crore;
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1635916

Further, addressing the long felt need of the IAF to increase its fighter squadrons, the DAC also approved the proposal for procurement of 21 MIG-29 along with upgradation of existing 59 MIG-29 aircraft and procurement of 12 Su-30 MKI aircraft. While the MIG 29 procurement and upgradation from Russia is estimated to cost Rs 7,418 crore, the Su-30 MKI will be procured from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) at an estimated cost of Rs 10,730 crore.

Looking at the cost these could be indeed the Super Sukhois with Uttam AESA. Another article from last week.

Govt to fast track acquisition of Su-30 and MiG-29 fighters for the IAF in face of the situation along the border
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... r/1996548/
19 June 2020

There is an agreement between India and Russia for upgrading the existing fleet of the Su-30 MKI. The aircraft need to be upgraded as from the time they had arrived in India were built to the current specifications and are Generation 4 plus.

In view of the current scenario along the Line of Actual Control, there is an urgent requirement to upgrade these aircraft to deal with the Chinese.

China has Su-35 and J-31 fighter jets.

The IAF plans to upgrade the existing fleet of Su-30 to the level of `Super Sukhoi’ which will be loaded with advanced radars and weapon systems.

Also, there are plans to equip the aircraft with long-range stand-off missiles with a range of 300 km; adding more powerful EW and jamming systems, high-performance engines, multiple ejector Rack, and AESA radar.

Some of the Super Sukhoi Su-30MKI features
* It has been planned to improve the Air Frame with 6,000 flying hours
* With Chassis wheels braking system
* Will have up-graded AL-31F production engines with 5th gen capabilities
* There will be a modern digital weapons control system as well as more advanced anti-jamming features.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Jul 2020 21:14

Aditya_V wrote:Rs 10,730 crore for 12 Su-30MKI built by HAL - that's $1.4 Billion for 12 aircraft. Is this the Super Sukhoi upgrade - $120 million seems pretty step as the normal Su-30MKI built from raw material comes to USD $70 million a piece?

No SS imho. It's prolly the entire spares and support package included. This is a relatively new trend with russki procurement, which earlier used to just provide unit cost.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Jul 2020 02:52

What was the price HAL quoted for 40 Su-30MKIs a year ago?

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Jul 2020 13:50

Su-30MKI w/ SPICE

idan · Post by **idan** » 05 Jul 2020 14:46

Is Su 35S fundamentally different to operate (and spares etc.) from Su 30 MKI? If the 'Super Sukhoi' upgrade is pegged at Su 35S standards then it makes sense to buy the new variant which is lightweight, has more composites in the airframe and a new updated engine. Indonesia has not inked the deal yet. The production line is busy and we can divert brand new Su 35Ss to India.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jul 2020 14:49

The order of 12 is being made in HAl with significant Indian input, Su-35 is pretty different.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 10 Jul 2020 02:47

Not the Rambha but cool to see nonetheless.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Aug 2020 01:09

https://twitter.com/simpleBiker2/status ... 53537?s=20 ---> Raghunath sir everyone is commenting about back bone of IAF SU 30 MKI. You have to do one precision strike against all these, just like you did in 1999. Tell the world that Su-30MKIs are not sitting ducks.

https://twitter.com/Nambitiger1/status/ ... 04224?s=20 ---> With 260+ Sukhoi-30 MKI and 12 more on order, the future success of the IAF is closely tied to this aircraft. The various upgrades on it, such as the Bhramos, ODL, Astra and many more, make this aircraft potent and unique. The MLU will makes this ac simply awesome!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Aug 2020 01:11

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12910 ... 07552?s=20 ---> Operationally, Su-30MKI is one of the best aircraft in the world. The Indian aircraft would be upgraded to 4+ gen standard soon enough.

https://twitter.com/Dnnnair/status/1291 ... 06305?s=20 ---> Its been a long wait for the upgrade. Everything in Indian defence moves at a glacial pace.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12910 ... 83553?s=20 ---> I think it's the same everywhere in the world. Yes, those who rely on imports are worse off.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 06 Aug 2020 01:21

The MKI upgrade is far more important than any new acquisition at this point. This is the single largest fleet in the IAF by a wide margin and will continue to remain so for the foreseeable future. Modernizing them will impart a huge capability boost to the IAF at a relatively affordable price. So of course the progress on the upgrade has been frustratingly slow as is usual for all critical requirements. I was hoping that the current Ladakh situation might get the wheels moving but that hasn't happened till now.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 06 Aug 2020 02:53

Looking at the (albeit unique) Saudi upgrade(+ new build) package for their F-15 fleet, we may be looking at a very hefty bill that when implemented, will put ginormous stress on the budget.
CDS spoke about equipment in service under three heads: Cutting edge(30%), Present Day(40%) & Obsolete(30%).
Assuming the fleet strength at 42Sqns, we need ~13Sqn of #1,~16 Sqn of #2 and ~13Sqn of #3. We are hopelessly behind on numbers as far as #1 is concerned(Others not looking great also).
I do not envy the people having to take a call on money matters in the DMA/MoD.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Aug 2020 04:32

nachiket wrote:The MKI upgrade is far more important than any new acquisition at this point. This is the single largest fleet in the IAF by a wide margin and will continue to remain so for the foreseeable future. Modernizing them will impart a huge capability boost to the IAF at a relatively affordable price. So of course the progress on the upgrade has been frustratingly slow as is usual for all critical requirements. I was hoping that the current Ladakh situation might get the wheels moving but that hasn't happened till now.

If only MOD and GOI had understood this earlier.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Aug 2020 05:32

MeshaVishwas wrote:Looking at the (albeit unique) Saudi upgrade(+ new build) package for their F-15 fleet, we may be looking at a very hefty bill that when implemented, will put ginormous stress on the budget.

Not comparable. Saudi wanted one very specific change (adding full FBW) that required a development and test program to be run as per USAF procedures (and no one else wanted it at the time). Moreover, their offset and domestic upgrade and overhaul depot capacity is nothing more than a contractor operated (or a domestic intermediary essentially outsourcing most of the work to the contractor or OEM) facility so the cost has factored in years if not decades of handholding and work to maintain their fleet (masquerading as domestic A&D set up). India is fully capable of doing all that work using desi expertise, manpower, and program management. Moreover, India is capable of fielding complete sub-systems which can replace many of the foreign components originally included on the aircraft.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 06 Aug 2020 18:32

brar_w wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Looking at the (albeit unique) Saudi upgrade(+ new build) package for their F-15 fleet, we may be looking at a very hefty bill that when implemented, will put ginormous stress on the budget.
Not comparable. Saudi wanted one very specific change (adding full FBW) that required a development and test program to be run as per USAF procedures (and no one else wanted it at the time). Moreover, their offset and domestic upgrade and overhaul depot capacity is nothing more than a contractor operated (or a domestic intermediary essentially outsourcing most of the work to the contractor or OEM) facility so the cost has factored in years if not decades of handholding and work to maintain their fleet (masquerading as domestic A&D set up). India is fully capable of doing all that work using desi expertise, manpower, and program management. Moreover, India is capable of fielding complete sub-systems which can replace many of the foreign components originally included on the aircraft.

Agreed, I was looking at it in terms of numbers and depth of the program(although even the Su may need to move to a digital FBW system from the present analogue variant).
No real comparison exists for such eastern origin bird getting upgraded.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Aug 2020 18:50

MeshaVishwas wrote:
brar_w wrote:
Not comparable. Saudi wanted one very specific change (adding full FBW) that required a development and test program to be run as per USAF procedures (and no one else wanted it at the time). Moreover, their offset and domestic upgrade and overhaul depot capacity is nothing more than a contractor operated (or a domestic intermediary essentially outsourcing most of the work to the contractor or OEM) facility so the cost has factored in years if not decades of handholding and work to maintain their fleet (masquerading as domestic A&D set up). India is fully capable of doing all that work using desi expertise, manpower, and program management. Moreover, India is capable of fielding complete sub-systems which can replace many of the foreign components originally included on the aircraft.
Agreed, I was looking at it in terms of numbers and depth of the program(although even the Su may need to move to a digital FBW system from the present analogue variant).
No real comparison exists for such eastern origin bird getting upgraded.

The UAE Block 60 deal was far more impressive and reasonable in that it was an R&D spend (which included USAF test and evaluation services) and API code access and royalties for export of UAE-funded gear. None of the "questionable" MRO or domestic O&S activities specified by KSA were factored in. What the UAE got was an AESA equipped Viper, with an F-22 inspired cockpit, an AESA based Electronic Warfare and Attack suite, and an upgrade to the targeting, navigation and countermeasure suite. And a new mission computer and greater range. And all of that by 2004/2005 when only one or two aircraft types had an operational AESA anywhere in the world. The then year cost of the R&D program was $3 Billion which I suppose would be around $4-4.2 billion today. It resulted in the single biggest upgrade/leap in capability post F-16C arrival, and the UAE, by 2005, had features that some of the competing aircraft wouldn't get for another decade or more (or in some cases like the Gripen-C and M2K - Never) so that should be used to put the cost in context. Given the IAF's MKI fleet size a $3-5 Billion upgrade package will be amortized over a much larger fleet.

I think the USAF's F-15E (and now F-15EX) modernization program is an excellent template to follow as far as modernizing a fleet while also keeping readiness high. They are doing it in phases, with radar being the first tranche (thev've nearly complete upgrading the entire F-15E fleet with the AN/APG-82 AESA radar), mission computers and cockpit displays coming in the second tranche (mission computer upgrades have already started), and a completely new EW/EA suite coming in the final tranche (first batch of test aircraft with the new GaN based EW/EA suite is currently flying and completing testing) with minor upgrades and software drops in between like new targeting pods, helmets, weapons, recce payload upgrades etc. It is minimally disruptive on readiness rates, large force exercise obligations and deployments. It also allows for cost to be spread over multiple budgets and doesn't put an artificial constraint on the technological maturity of all sub-systems which requiring all subsystems to be available and upgraded by a certain date would have. For example, they wouldn't have been able to move to a GaN based EW suite had they required the EW suite to be upgraded along with the radar. They would have had to settle for something inferior. So they simply moved the lesser mature aspects of the modernization to the right of the schedule and brought ahead the capabilities which were ready to go so that the aircraft are deployed with some of the latest and greatest subsystems like radars and aren't waiting for the least mature item to fully develop before getting enhancements in performance.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 06 Aug 2020 20:47

brar_w wrote:.. What the UAE got was an AESA equipped Viper, ...when only one or two aircraft types had an operational AESA anywhere in the world. .

One of them being the F2, Japan's F16 variant., the first aesa in a combat fighter, the first co-cured composite in tactical combat fighter etc. The us got access to all the technology,but put in 40% of the costs

With the passage of time, the F16V was able to sidestep the uae royalty. The block 60 wound up with no exports, iirc.

Good try, can't win them all.

We really ought not to be waiting that extra generation for technology to develop elsewhere..

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Aug 2020 20:56

Barath wrote:
brar_w wrote:.. What the UAE got was an AESA equipped Viper, ...when only one or two aircraft types had an operational AESA anywhere in the world. .
One of them being the F2, Japan's F16 variant., the first aesa in a combat fighter, the first co-cured composite in tactical combat fighter etc.

Though with the passage of time, the F16V was able to sidestep the uae royalty. The block 60 wound up with no exports, iirc.

Good try, can't win them all.

Unfortunately we really ought not to be waiting that extra generation for technology to develop elsewhere..

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2452418#p2452418

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 20:34

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 42305?s=20 ----> A Su-30MKI dropping a Spice 2000.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 20:49

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 01664?s=20 ---> Su-30s are becoming our new testbeds. Astra, Brahmos, SAAW, NGARM, Garuthma, Garuda, PGHSLD.

Next up: SFDR carriage and release trials (tenders are out).

In pipeline: Rudra M2/M3, Nirbhay ALCM, NASM.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Aug 2020 22:10

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 16224?s=20 ---> HAL has handed over the 500th AL-31FP overhauled engine to the IAF which are mounted on its front line fighter aircraft Su-30MKI. It has been done by the Koraput Division of HAL.

https://twitter.com/jaypatelz2/status/1 ... 35072?s=20 ---> If they know & have the expertise to manufacture engines for sukhoi, why can't they develop our own engine for Tejas?

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 87077?s=20 ---> They're overhauling them and not manufacturing it.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Aug 2020 10:16

The Russian equivalent of the MKI, the SM just got upgraded...al41s from the 35 and the irbis. Newer weapons as well. This should be the minimal upgrade for the mki as well. Although a bars 2.0 was talked about years ago.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Aug 2020 11:38

Cain Marko wrote:The Russian equivalent of the MKI, the SM just got upgraded...al41s from the 35 and the irbis. Newer weapons as well. This should be the minimal upgrade for the mki as well. Although a bars 2.0 was talked about years ago.

Is it confirmed the latest 12 being built by HAL what variant are they, some say it is the First MKI contract with PBL and life cycle costs, but I find it odd for fleet with 263 flying you would add PBL for the last 12, Why 10K crore for 12 Aircraft- I feel something has not been made public about this deal?

what is the Break up of this acquisition price, there has to be something behind the increased cost- what is it?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2020 23:36

Whats the need to get all that info? When time comes it will be open.

The order for the 12 SU-30MKi is being discussed for quite sometime.
In fact when RBS took over he said so in his first speech.
They are for replacement for the lost ones and in future.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Aug 2020 09:03

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 16224?s=20 ---> HAL has handed over the 500th AL-31FP overhauled engine to the IAF which are mounted on its front line fighter aircraft Su-30MKI. It has been done by the Koraput Division of HAL.

https://twitter.com/jaypatelz2/status/1 ... 35072?s=20 ---> If they know & have the expertise to manufacture engines for sukhoi, why can't they develop our own engine for Tejas?

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 87077?s=20 ---> They're overhauling them and not manufacturing it.

This is the absolute state of some of our defense journalism in India. VAYU the so called oldest aviation mag in India does not know HAL both manufactures and overhauls the Su-30s engines and that merely manufacturing a Su-30 engine does not mean you can automatically make one of your own design. What a comedy.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 15 Aug 2020 08:18

Aditya_V wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:The Russian equivalent of the MKI, the SM just got upgraded...al41s from the 35 and the irbis. Newer weapons as well. This should be the minimal upgrade for the mki as well. Although a bars 2.0 was talked about years ago.
Is it confirmed the latest 12 being built by HAL what variant are they, some say it is the First MKI contract with PBL and life cycle costs, but I find it odd for fleet with 263 flying you would add PBL for the last 12, Why 10K crore for 12 Aircraft- I feel something has not been made public about this deal?

what is the Break up of this acquisition price, there has to be something behind the increased cost- what is it?

Not so sure what the IAF will get. My guess is that they'll either go with the SM upgrade (now) with Desi inputs or wait for pkafa engines and radar to mature (later).

The current SM upgrade path looks pretty stable having seen proper use via the su35. Would not be surprised if the latest 12 replacements come with SM upgrade. Will also give it the 300km hypersonic AAM.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Aug 2020 09:46

From what HVT sir said on twitter, they are not looking at an engine upgrade right now. I am not sure why, but perhaps it is because of IAF's terrible experience with the AL-31F reliability. AM Nambiar mentioned this in his interview with Shiv Aroor. ALmost 930 engines have been built for 270 MKI's. The failure rate is that high. Now that HAL is finally building the AL-31's with a high level of indigenous content IAF probably doesn't want to switch to a new engine and start the process all over again, because they are sure the experience with the new engines will be the same. This is my speculation of course.

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 15 Aug 2020 10:42

The Indian Air Force's highest gallantry decoration this #IndependenceDay is a Shaurya Chakra to pilot Wing Commander Vishak Nair. Unlike the Army, the IAF isn't releasing details. Broadly, it was the miracle mid-air recovery of a Su-30 MKI. Details if/when cleared by the IAF. via Livefist

I cannot recollect where but i came across a post wherein someone was commenting on a Sukhoi with "half a wing lost" parked at an AFB. Not sure if above gallantry decoration has anything to do with that.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 15 Aug 2020 12:50

Wow!
Takes me to the Israeli F-15 incident with the crazy single wing landing.
I hope the citation is shared.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Aug 2020 11:54

nachiket wrote:From what HVT sir said on twitter, they are not looking at an engine upgrade right now. I am not sure why, but perhaps it is because of IAF's terrible experience with the AL-31F reliability. AM Nambiar mentioned this in his interview with Shiv Aroor. ALmost 930 engines have been built for 270 MKI's. The failure rate is that high. Now that HAL is finally building the AL-31's with a high level of indigenous content IAF probably doesn't want to switch to a new engine and start the process all over again, because they are sure the experience with the new engines will be the same. This is my speculation of course.

Hmm... Could very well be. There seems to be marked improvement on 117s engines vs the 31fps in terms of maintenance/service life although I'm not sure how this translated to reality.

In related news the russki SMs are getting the kh32 which will be made available for export. Range = 1000km

Lohit · Post by **Lohit** » 17 Aug 2020 23:54

Heres a stupid question for the Gurus,

During post-balakot dogfight, MKIs were apparently unable to engage/scare off F16s as the latter possessed better standoff AMRAAMs (please excuse / feel free to correct the dumbed down version that is my interpretation)

My question is - is there a possibility that we actually have that capability but deliberately kept it under the wraps considering the tactical nature of that dog fight, while the Pakis lifted their salwars to dangle the family jewels for the world to see?

My rationale for asking this is that otherwise, this would mean we are keeping a stable of 260 white elephants despite spending brazillions of dollars on acquisitions. Yes we are SDREs but surely we aren't that stupid. Or are we?

Please feel free to not answer if this is a off-limit topic due to sensitivity.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Aug 2020 23:57

The only reason why the NaPakis launched their AMRAAMs and the IAF did not, is because the latter was still following a guideline of ROEs.

There is nothing else to it. That is the plain and simple truth, despite all the statements otherwise.

Simple Question (Think about this) ---> When the PAF launched their AMRAAMs...why did they not hit their mark? 4 - 5 missiles were launched at individual IAF planes. Why do we not have 4 - 5 wreckages?

Lohit · Post by **Lohit** » 18 Aug 2020 00:17

Rakesh wrote:The only reason why the NaPakis launched their AMRAAMs and the IAF did not, is because the latter was still following a guideline of ROEs.

There is nothing else to it. That is the plain and simple truth, despite all the statements otherwise.

Simple Question (Think about this) ---> When the PAF launched their AMRAAMs...why did they not hit their mark? 4 - 5 missiles were launched at individual IAF planes. Why do we not have 4 - 5 wreckages?

Indeed. And we dont know whether there was radar spoofing or other EWS that further did the Pakis in.

My question was more about why we didnt scalp more of their jets and if I understand correctly, you are saying that it was not due to lack of BVR armament capability but more due to a ROE set in place to deliberately not reveal such capability unless it is not mandated by guidelines laid in the ROE. I hope my interpretation is correct?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Aug 2020 00:22

Yes for ROE set in place

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 18 Aug 2020 00:27

Its like in The Imitation Game. You keep as much of your capabilities hidden until absolutely necessary. IAF would hate to give up its operational secrets and radar and weapons signatures on a relatively small operation if it could jeopardize survivability in a large-scale conflict? We have to assume that any intel collected by Pak will be airmailed to China before its mule-shipped to Rawalpindi.

This is quite a deadly game! One must admire our pilots for their discipline - they were literally in a life-or-death situation, and still managed to not dhoti-shibber and reveal system secrets by breaking RoE. Unlike PAF, by all accounts.

Lohit · Post by **Lohit** » 18 Aug 2020 00:31

Rakesh wrote:Yes for ROE set in place

Thanks Rakesh san!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Aug 2020 02:26

I can't remember the name of the Air Marshal (not Nambiar Sir). He recently retired from the IAF. Was closely involved in the Rafale negotiations.

He said that the PAF discipline at Balakot was so poor, that in the manner they were launching missiles at IAF fighter aircraft...they would have expended all their air-to-air missiles. Shows a dismal lack of training and places the AMRAAM in a bad light.

I remember someone on the forum saying the PAF pilots who took part in Operation Swift Retort were CCS (Combat Commander School) graduates. If this is the level of CCS training, one can only imagine what their regular pilots must be like. CCS is the PAF version of TACDE in the IAF or the United States Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor aka Top Gun program in Amreeka.

Their AMRAAMs had ZERO kills, other than the one launched at Wing Commander Varthaman.

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Added Later:

I just remembered the name! Air Marshal SBP Sinha (retd). He retired in Dec 2018 I believe.

See this part of the video below from 9:00 onwards...