Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 16 Jul 2018 23:28

ArjunPandit wrote:
nam wrote:These are replacement T90s for the units which had moved from western to the chinese front.

Obviously they cannot be replaced with Arjuns. It Arjun orders are to be placed, they will be for T72 units.

^^not sure why do you say so sir, Apart from weight, Arjun has distinguished itself on almost all parameters. In fact the famed T90 is quite a lot Arjunised. Arjun is probably more appropriate for western border.


There is a answer for this, however it will trigger the cyclic discussion which has happened for many pages on this thread.

Personally from my point of view, it is very simple. It is IA who will do the dying. None of us armchair generals. So IA has decided to ride it's fate with T90, so be it.

All said and done, it is just a machine. Hoping IA & DRDO are moving ahead with plans for future, instead of getting stuck with the saga.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 17 Jul 2018 04:19

If IA decides to order Arjuns, can HVF make them or will they have to change the tooling which is geared up for T-90?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Kakarat » 17 Jul 2018 21:59

ramana wrote:If IA decides to order Arjuns, can HVF make them or will they have to change the tooling which is geared up for T-90?


There are two different plan for Arjun and T-90 in HVF Avadi

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby sudeepj » 17 Jul 2018 22:11

Any sources on T90s being moved from the West to the China border? As far as I know, there are only a couple of places that are Tankable on the China border, and we dont station frontline tank forces there.

As far as I can tell, these new T90MS tanks are to operationalize Cold Start and will be stationed with IBGs right on the Punjab and Jammu border.

T90MS does 'fix' many of the issues with the older generation T90S we have.. Rounds stored in bustle fixes many of the safety problems. If the autoloader has also been fixed to take longer/next gen APFSDS, this can be a potent platform.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 18 Jul 2018 13:13

So far the only APFSDS we have got from Russia, is circa 1986, Mango, with 560mm penetration at 2Km. I suspect it helps Russia to have us stuck at older ammo because that way we buy their expensive Refleks missiles to CKD assemble in India.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 18 Jul 2018 13:16

Yet, no one in the Indian army is open to Arjun whose ap rounds can kill any TSP or PRC MBT.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 18 Jul 2018 14:09

Karan M wrote:So far the only APFSDS we have got from Russia, is circa 1986, Mango, with 560mm penetration at 2Km. I suspect it helps Russia to have us stuck at older ammo because that way we buy their expensive Refleks missiles to CKD assemble in India.


And that would be at 0 Degrees angle of hit.. which is not very common on the battlefield. Especially against moving targets, further compounded on typical non-urban battle fields (cross country/desert dunes).

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 18 Jul 2018 14:46

Well at an angle, the penetration numbers increase. The other issue is how well the round stacks up against modern armor arrays.

I am certain, that with domestic rounds we will iteratively test against whatever we have and gradually fix any deficiencies. With these imported rounds, you take whatever is given and hope for the best.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 18 Jul 2018 14:49

Pratyush wrote:Yet, no one in the Indian army is open to Arjun whose ap rounds can kill any TSP or PRC MBT.


The Arjun FSAPDS is in the same ballpark as Mango. Unfortunately, the decade long stoppage of FSAPDS development by IA has had negative effects on our program, but we are now at ~600mm DOP, which is around the same as what SoKo was at around 5-6 years back. Hard to say where west is, because so much FUD/internet fanboyism obfuscates figures.

Now, we will continue to advance, becase DRDO has marked FSAPDS development as a priority, however, if there is no New Gen tank gun, the development can stagnate. Which brings us to FMBT..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2018 21:04

Kakarat wrote:
ramana wrote:If IA decides to order Arjuns, can HVF make them or will they have to change the tooling which is geared up for T-90?


There are two different plants for Arjun and T-90 in HVF Avadi


Kakakrat, Very good to know. Lets see what NS decides.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 29 Jul 2018 14:20

Singhajee for you


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 29 Jul 2018 19:12

India completely localized the production of tank engines V-46-6 and V-92S2
On July 28, 2018, India's Defense Minister Nirmala Sithamaran was present at the Engine Factory Avadi (EFA, part of the Ordnance Factory Board OFB) in Avadi near Madras at the ceremony of handing over to the Armed Forces of India the completely localized EFA tank diesel engines V-46-6 and V-92S2, produced there under the Russian license. Indian Defense Minister Nirmala Sithamaran at the ceremony of handing over to the Armed Forces of India the engine diesel engine V-46-6 and V-92S2, engine-produced by Engine Factory Avadi (EFA), completely under the Russian license. Avadi, July 28, 2013 (c) twitter.com/DefProdnIndia

Until recently, the production of tank diesel engines V-46-6 (capacity 780 hp, is installed on the previously produced in India under license T-72M1 tank - Ajeya) and B-92S2 (power 1000 hp, is installed on the produced in India, under the license of the T-90S-Bhishma tank), OOO Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant-URALTRAK (ChTZ), which supplied the EFA for these engines with fuel equipment, a supercharging system with a supercharger, and a number of other nodes. At a cost until recently, the level of Indian localization of both engines was estimated at 73%. Now, the full localization of both engines to the EFA is announced, which corresponds to the "Make in India" course promoted by the Indian government.

It is reported that in the next 10 years the EFA plant must produce 2,550 new V-46-6 engines and 1,716 B-92S2 engines. At the same time, from the total localization of production, the savings for the indicated number of V-46-6 engines will be allegedly 248 crore rupees (about 166 thousand dollars), while the savings for the specified number of B-92S2 engines - 570 crore rupees (about 380 thousand dollars).


Indian Defense Minister Nirmala Sithamaran has set the EFA management task to achieve full localization of the third type of engines produced at the enterprise - UTD-20, installed on the manufactured in India under license BMP-2.


Plant Factory Avadi was built in Avadi with Soviet assistance specifically for the licensed production of the V-46-6 and UTD-20 engines for the licensed production of the T-72M1 and BMP-2 tanks in India. The plant was commissioned in 1987, originally as part of the Avadi-based Indian Tank Plant Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), but in 1995 EFA was transferred to the OFB association as a separate enterprise. The production of engines at the enterprise was organized with technical assistance and the supply of components from the Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant. Since 2004, EFA has also established a licensed production of V-92S2 engines for T-90S tanks. The initial capacity of the company EFA was 350 engines per year, then it was increased to 500, and from 2014 after reconstruction it was brought to 750 engines per year. From 1987 to the present, more than 12 thousand engines were manufactured in Avadi. The plant also repairs the engines listed above.


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 29 Jul 2018 22:11

Hope DRDO quickly brings out 1500hp version of these engines. That should clear probably one of the biggest roadblock for commonality for Arjun with T-90.

The German MTU engine.
Last edited by nam on 29 Jul 2018 22:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 29 Jul 2018 22:43

Is this a sick joke. As after only 30 years of producing the t72 we finally are able to make one in India.

PS I distinctly remember a program of the Indian army that was to re engine the vijayanta with the t 72 engine. If we were not making the engine in India. Then where the engine would have come from.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 29 Jul 2018 22:54

We must have been under contractual obligation to import some of the engine parts from Russia. Just like once upon a time, SU-30 tyres were imported.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 30 Jul 2018 02:37

Pratyush wrote:Is this a sick joke. As after only 30 years of producing the t72 we finally are able to make one in India.

PS I distinctly remember a program of the Indian army that was to re engine the vijayanta with the t 72 engine. If we were not making the engine in India. Then where the engine would have come from.


No its not a sick joke my dear friend.
We might be making engines but often components are outsourced.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 00:08

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 8954730497 ---> Indian Tankers at Tank Biathlon 2018 at International Army Games. India came second, following Azerbaijan in the second race.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 00:12

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9258721280 ---> Indian Army Air Defence Corps operates the Strela-10M3 visually guided, point defence SAM. Firing the 9M333 missile with a 5 kg HE-FRAG warhead.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 8532870144 ---> 9M333 is a 42 kg missile, canisterised, 4 of which are ready to fire & 4 are inside the vehicle as reloads. It has an active laser proximity fuse. It can shoot fixed wing, rotor wing UAV and cruise missiles from a distance of 0.5 to 5 km. Altitude range is from 10 m to 3.5 km.

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https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 5054539777 ---> The tracked chassis is armoured and protected from NBC radiation. The range of the vehicle is 500 km and it can cross water bodies at 6 km/h. Although it was a formidable weapon during the 70s & 80s, the time has come to replace this with something more potent like the Pantsir M.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 00:18

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 0241094656 ---> An Indian Army BMP-2 Sarath Infantry Fighting Vehicle firing a Konkurs-M 9M113 Anti-Tank Guided Missile.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 04 Aug 2018 04:34


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 02:00

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 6886377472 ---> An integral armoured Hull for infantry Combat Vehicle is under development at R&DE(E). When completed, the weight saving as compared to metallic hull, will be around 35% to 40%.

In case, anyone is wondering what R&DE(E) is ---> Research & Development Establishment (Engineers) -- https://tinyurl.com/y7en5lhk

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby John » 05 Aug 2018 03:22

Rakesh wrote:The tracked chassis is armoured and protected from NBC radiation. The range of the vehicle is 500 km and it can cross water bodies at 6 km/h. Although it was a formidable weapon during the 70s & 80s, the time has come to replace this with something more potent like the Pantsir M.

Rakesh, IA is looking at Sosna-R which is likely to replace these.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 05 Aug 2018 04:41

John wrote:Rakesh, IA is looking at Sosna-R which is likely to replace these.

John Sir, those comments are not mine. I copy it verbatim from the twitter feed. Apart from videos, I usually copy the entire tweet (text, picture and all) to avoid BRFites from clicking the link (which I also provide for reference).

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 06 Aug 2018 21:50

12 semi-finalists of the "Tank Biathlon"
In the first line of the rating of the semi-finalists, Russia with the total time (the sum of the results of the three crews) is 58 minutes 49 seconds, followed by China - 1 hour 04 minutes 45 seconds, Belarus 1 hour 05 minutes 14 seconds, Kazakhstan 1 hour 08 minutes 49 seconds , Azerbaijan - 1 hour 14 min 32 s, Serbia - 1 hour 15 min 41 s, Mongolia - 1 hour 16 min 03 s, Iran - 1 hour 17 min 16 s, Armenia - 1 hour 21 min 48 sec, India - 1 hour 23 min 50 s, Kirghizia - 1 hour 24 min 15 s and Venezuela - 1 hour 24 min 19 sec.

The chief judge of the "Tank Biathlon" Major-General Roman Binyukov noted that most participants in tank biathlon this year demonstrate good skills in shooting.


https://rg.ru/2018/08/06/reg-cfo/oprede ... tlona.html

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2018 03:08

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1026400999286571008 ---> Design work on a structurally improved and weight optimized Arjun MK-II tank is complete. At the moment , development work on a reconfigured hull is underway at Ordnance Factory Medak and Reliance Defence.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 08 Aug 2018 12:05

Let's hope that this modification is the last one.

P S I wait with a baited breath for Rahul Gandhi to start shouting scandal due to involvement of reliance defence.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby sum » 08 Aug 2018 13:55

^^ Wonder why this dog and pony show is still even continuing.

Just be done with it and officially kill the programme and move onto the T-14/xyz instead of keeping this in "liquid oxygen"

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 08 Aug 2018 14:29

We should continue with it. DRDO should not give up on reducing weight. Not because IA will one day induct it, the exercise has forced DRDO to come up with some innovative ideas. Aluminium wheels, composite parts, High nitrogen steel etc.

However in parallel they should start work on FMBT. The tech can then be applied to FMBT.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Khalsa » 08 Aug 2018 16:04

How unfortunate for my dearest Natasha loving babus
Both
Pak-FA and T-14 Armata are turning out to be tech demonstrators with super super limited manufacturing.
I am laughing

Time for Mk3


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 08 Aug 2018 16:11

Khalsa wrote:How unfortunate for my dearest Natasha loving babus
Both
Pak-FA and T-14 Armata are turning out to be tech demonstrators with super super limited manufacturing.
I am laughing

Time for Mk3


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Don’t laugh too soon. The MiG-29K was pretty much a super-limited demonstrator until our Natasha-loving babus decided to buy it. Odds are even that we buy the T-14 and be the savior of the Armata.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Kersi » 08 Aug 2018 16:50

Khalsa wrote:How unfortunate for my dearest Natasha loving babus
Both
Pak-FA and T-14 Armata are turning out to be tech demonstrators with super super limited manufacturing.
I am laughing

Time for Mk3


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How dare you be so cruel to Natahsa ? She is coming soon, riding a T 14 Armata !!

How do you expect rodina and her Indian lovers to live a luxurious life ?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Kersi » 08 Aug 2018 16:55

ramana wrote:Russia can't afford T14 Armata

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/102 ... 50048?s=19


So what ? India will help them.

Remember USMC scrapped EH 101 as it was too expensive for USA. But it is not too expensive for India for its politicians

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby John » 08 Aug 2018 18:16

Kersi wrote:
ramana wrote:Russia can't afford T14 Armata

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/102 ... 50048?s=19


So what ? India will help them.

Remember USMC scrapped EH 101 as it was too expensive for USA. But it is not too expensive for India for its politicians

Off topic but Russia is banking on China to fund if they don't announce a deal directly a lot of money flows under the table and tech is transferred in secret, the money so far China has given to Russia for arms tech pales in comparison to arms deals between India and Russia.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 10 Aug 2018 21:29

https://mobile.twitter.com/sayareakd/status/1027822301969088512

Indian position in Russian tank biathlon, it speaks lot about what our best are doing, DGMF has to rethink about training of tank crews, then focus on making proper GSQR for #FRCV.


Anup Sayare is talking about the main gun results in particular I think. We were 3 hits out of 9 shots. Russkies and chinis were 8/9. Of course, roos and cheen be using own tanks while we use whatever Russians provided. Should have brought along the Arjun or simply skip the contest if we were worried about egg on our faces.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2018 23:27

Can we dig into this a little bit more?
How did the T90 gunnery perform in Indian trials?

3/9 would fail in India itself.

What do you mean India used tanks provided by roos?
They didn't transport own T90s?
Or just that T90s are not Indian design?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 10 Aug 2018 23:35

It is better we face constant eggs on our face.

I hope after a while DGMF realize that Russia and Chinese use customized T72 & T96 for these games.

Then they will have to go to ... DRDO to come up with a souped up T90 with higher powered/ turbo charged engine, better ballistic computer, aluminium wheels for higher speed, reduced weight turret/hull etc.

These games are teaching them the value of having in-house capability like Russia & China.

On the question of sending Arjun, a simple answer could be there is no single piece Ammo used by Arjun with Russia. All the tanks participating must be compatible with Russian rounds. But I guess we can take some training rounds to the games.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ramana » 10 Aug 2018 23:45

I don't think an learning is coming from these competitions.

Some Chunkian will come and say this was to entrap Pakistan into thinking Indian tanks are shoddy.
When they really are!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby nam » 11 Aug 2018 00:06

We are using Russian supplied tanks in this year's game. We don't know if those tanks have ballistic computer which can offer better accuracy. Last year our T-90 was been used and I think we performed pretty well in the gunnery part of the competition.

Our engines failed, so could not complete the course.

Only the Russians and Chinese takes these games seriously. I hope the lesson learned is have a local MIC, else sit at home.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby chola » 11 Aug 2018 01:58

ramana wrote:Can we dig into this a little bit more?
How did the T90 gunnery perform in Indian trials?

3/9 would fail in India itself.

What do you mean India used tanks provided by roos?
They didn't transport own T90s?
Or just that T90s are not Indian design?


Yah Ramana Saar, as Namji said, this year we are using base T-72s the Russians provide to everyone else who come to the contest without a tank.

The rooskies being rooskies always cheat with their own T-72 being souped up with bigger engine and who knows what else. Chinis bring their own Type-96 to even odds. We brought the T-90 last year but both suffered breakdowns so we did not finish race.

Our lesson from last year seems to be “let’s not embarass ourselves again” and meekly accept whatever the rooskies provided this year. Contrast that to chinis whose wheel came off their Type-96 last year and became joke on Youtube but are here yet again with their own tank with changes to make it more formidable. That should be the lesson IMHO.

On the gunnery, the Iranians used the same tanks we did but shot much better at 6/9. That is why Sayare Sir made the training comment. We shot worse than several other teams using the same tank. But how much of that is due to the sighting/gun differences between the base T-72 and T-90 we don’t know. Bringing our tanks whether T-90 or Arjun is better because it forces us to compete with what we really have.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Karan M » 11 Aug 2018 10:52

I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians deliberately gave the Indian side a tank with multiple issues. And the Indian side just persevered. Russians and in fact all our so called partners pull such petty tricks for political reasons.


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