Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Aug 2017 05:48

ArjunPandit wrote:Missing Rohit Vats ... His posts on Arjun vs t90 were stuff of legend

We threw the baby out with the bathwater in his case....as in other cases perhaps....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Aug 2017 06:41

ArjunPandit wrote:Missing Rohit Vats ... His posts on Arjun vs t90 were stuff of legend

Actually - I am not missing Rohit at all. Once upon a time BRF was the go-to place for military related stuff. Now there is so much information about that only the real experts remain here for the real PhD level stuff and the rest of the people are IMO gradually opting out - other than old chronic ulcers like me. I have seen so much knowledge about tank warfare in the last 2 pages that I think the entire Indian Armoured Corps is on BRF

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Aug 2017 07:16

Shiv Saar in B'lore in Nov / Dec. Would be a pleasure to meet you. I believe you know Sq Ldr PVR Mu...y?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Aug 2017 07:19

shiv wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Missing Rohit Vats ... His posts on Arjun vs t90 were stuff of legend
Actually - I am not missing Rohit at all. Once upon a time BRF was the go-to place for military related stuff. Now there is so much information about that only the real experts remain here for the real PhD level stuff and the rest of the people are IMO gradually opting out - other than old chronic ulcers like me. I have seen so much knowledge about tank warfare in the last 2 pages that I think the entire Indian Armoured Corps is on BRF

Shiv saar,
I would not conflate information with knowledge....There is a diarrhoea of words allied to a constipation of thought!!
I know how to make masala dosa but only my my mom can do it right all the time......

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Aug 2017 07:20

Just wondering - did IA order enough tow trucks for these tin craps? So how does it work in battle? Tow trucks follow the tanks since 50- 100% will break down in the desert? Proves my point that India is not capable of power projection outside its borders.

Fan belts (new) do not break unless the equipment does something unexpected. I am surprised that no one has said that the fan belt was from the Arjun!!

Imagine if an Arjun had suffered the problems that the T90 experienced. It is unbelievable that IA is ordering thousands of this Tank!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Aug 2017 07:36

Maybe these dabba tanks can be dug into position on the borders so that they don't need to use their fan belts or leaky engines!!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Aug 2017 07:53

People want to compare a Russian Engine with a German Engine and Gear box hain ji?
Of course the Arjun will come in first all the time.

It has three unbeatable things
1. German Engine
2. Hydropneumatic suspension
3. Rifed Gun - more accurate than the roosi or the cheeni tanks

The roosi tanks will lose all the time to this guy

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Aug 2017 07:55

ks_sachin wrote:Shiv Saar in B'lore in Nov / Dec. Would be a pleasure to meet you. I believe you know Sq Ldr PVR Mu...y?

Do you have my no? Or it is bennedose at hot mail

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Aug 2017 08:54

Rohit Vats on anti tank missile with Indian Army

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/08/in ... uided.html

...
As the write-up shows, Indian Army has a varied types of anti-tank guided missiles depending upon usage and platform. In pure number terms, the total requirement is in excess of 85,00 missiles of different types.

The recent order for Spike-MR fills only one, albeit large, part of the overall requirement. If the infantry battalions indeed use a mix of short and long range ATGM, then Spike-MR represents replacement of only the short range version i.e. Milan/Milan-2T. The field is wide open for replacement of Konkur-M in long range ATGM for the infantry. CLGM mentioned above has the attributes to be this replacement. It remains to be seen whether CLGM/CLGM derived missile is the answer or we import another missile. Spike family has the Spike-LR version and Israelis will sure push it. Considering that Konkur-M are going strong, I think domestic R&D establishment still has some time on their hand to offer a credible solution for this requirement.

But induction of Spike-MR does mean that doors for US made Javelin ATGM are more or less closed. It does not make sense for an army to operate two man-portable ATGMs. It might so happen that IA may import some units for specialized formations like special forces. But even this seems absurd.

BMP-2 are slated for upgrade. One proposal from the Russians talks of re-arming the BMP-2 with four AT-14 Kornet missiles; these are placed on either side of the turret in a ready-to-fire pack of two. With DRDO making progress with CLGM, it remains to be seen if it can be adapted for BMP-2 upgrade. Between infantry's long range ATGM requirement and BMP-2 upgrade, CLGM/CLGM derived missile has the potential to tap the biggest segment of ATGM in the army.

Recently, Indian Army has expressed interest for next generation tank fired ATGM for its T-90 fleet. And it seems the T-72 main gun (2A46M) is also likely to be updated with T-90 main gun (2A46-M5). This will permit upgraded T-72 to fire ATGM from the main gun. CLGM was developed for 120mm rifled main gun of Arjun tank while T-72/T-90 have 125mm main guns. It remains to be see whether DRDO bites the bullet and delivers a new missile for T-90/T-72 fleet or India goes for missile from abroad.

Finally, NAG seems to that much closer to clearing the final hurdle. This one missile represents a phenomenal jump in anti-tank capability of the army. The missile is capable of defeating any present or future tank which is likely to see service on western or eastern borders. It induction in the army will give formidable anti-tank capability to its infantry/mechanized formations.

Same goes for HELINA. The Army Aviation Corp (AAC) is slated for massive expansion, especially in the attack helicopter domain. IA plans to induct 60 Rudra and 114 Light Combat Helicopters. It is but common sense that a domestic missile serves this massive requirement.

As things stand today, India can fulfill about 80%-85% of ATGM requirement across multiple platforms. All it requires is for the R&D establishment to work out realistic and achievable goals. And for the Indian Army to ensure good does not become the enemy of the best and that it works closely with the R&D establishment to work on this road-map.
...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Aug 2017 09:02

deejay wrote:Rohit Vats on anti tank missile with Indian Army

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/08/in ... uided.html

...
As the write-up shows, Indian Army has a varied types of anti-tank guided missiles depending upon usage and platform. In pure number terms, the total requirement is in excess of 85,00 missiles of different types.
...

That's a typo. It is 85,000. Confirmed from author of that blog.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Aug 2017 09:04

Yes it is.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Aug 2017 09:14

Vivek K wrote:Just wondering - did IA order enough tow trucks for these tin craps? So how does it work in battle? Tow trucks follow the tanks since 50- 100% will break down in the desert? Proves my point that India is not capable of power projection outside its borders.

Fan belts (new) do not break unless the equipment does something unexpected. I am surprised that no one has said that the fan belt was from the Arjun!!

Imagine if an Arjun had suffered the problems that the T90 experienced. It is unbelievable that IA is ordering thousands of this Tank!

"Maybe these dabba tanks can be dug into position on the borders so that they don't need to use their fan belts or leaky engines!!"

Do you have a compulsion to make such asinine statements!!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Aug 2017 10:23

Glad to comply to your asinine wishes, my lord!

When the IA can put the Arjun through such gruelling testing and then its much vaunted pride fails to beat the competition, did you think the IA's decision was asinine? Pray enlighten me, your lordship.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Aug 2017 11:03

It seems some ERA panels have been removed from Indian T-90. Was it to save weight? Did we have only 2 tanks ? Or 3? Did the third tank also break down?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Aug 2017 11:10

shiv wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:Missing Rohit Vats ... His posts on Arjun vs t90 were stuff of legend
Actually - I am not missing Rohit at all. Once upon a time BRF was the go-to place for military related stuff. Now there is so much information about that only the real experts remain here for the real PhD level stuff and the rest of the people are IMO gradually opting out - other than old chronic ulcers like me. I have seen so much knowledge about tank warfare in the last 2 pages that I think the entire Indian Armoured Corps is on BRF

I think person who wrote one of the first detailed Articles on BRF on Arjun vis a vis Imports of T-72/90 was Raj Malhotra. But Nitin demolished the arguments of import lobby with detailed posts and even took on Ajai Shukla. Ajai Shukla would later on change his views about Arjun. I think our understanding of Arjun owes a lot to Nitin. Rohitvats simply endorsed the views of BRF on Arjun but for everything else he was pro Imports, abusive and went with the General principle that Civilians cannot question military.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Aug 2017 11:28

Vivek K wrote:Glad to comply to your asinine wishes, my lord!

When the IA can put the Arjun through such gruelling testing and then its much vaunted pride fails to beat the competition, did you think the IA's decision was asinine? Pray enlighten me, your lordship.

Don't dig a hole for yourself..

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Aug 2017 11:33

I think we need to stop the cursory and unfair assessment of people who are no longer here to defend their view points. Actually this knee jerk assessment of things after T-90 failed in biathlon is also not right . Platforms beyond a point are just that i.e. platforms ; T-90 is better than a Abrams and LeoA5 when you look at it from the pov of Russians their 'need' is to field a tank in numbers which will make the whole proposition prohibitively expensive for even the Americans and Germans . Remember the design of Russian tanks is based on their philosophy to field light-medium armor in enough 'numbers' if someone can build Abrams or Merakavas in similar numbers with similar resources and money then sure no problem. Before we evaluate a platform it's design philosophy and objectives need to be accounted for lot of Russian military equipment was not made with idea of long usage and maintenance it was made from pov of easy to mass produce , use for x hours and replace it in entirety because latter was easier to achieve . The GSH guns on AC are actually built on similar lines .

The issue with us is we are trying to evaluate platform versus another platform when debate is not around T-90 vs Arjun (at least beyond a certain point it is useless) ; the debate is around when does India get to achieve an ability where we can build and fix our tanks without any dependence on entities who you cannot guarantee will be able to supply us in times of need. I mean in the short term if you see things even Arjun won't fair any better in this department as lot of it's components are imported however what needs to be done is to take steps to get to that final state where only components which are a 'commodity' need to be imported but critical parts be made in-house . Arjun is Indian not because all of it's every component is made in India , it is Indian because if given the components we can build it here and maintain it on our own with T-90 that is not the case .

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Aug 2017 11:37

Gyan wrote:
shiv wrote: Actually - I am not missing Rohit at all. Once upon a time BRF was the go-to place for military related stuff. Now there is so much information about that only the real experts remain here for the real PhD level stuff and the rest of the people are IMO gradually opting out - other than old chronic ulcers like me. I have seen so much knowledge about tank warfare in the last 2 pages that I think the entire Indian Armoured Corps is on BRF
I think person who wrote one of the first detailed Articles on BRF on Arjun vis a vis Imports of T-72/90 was Raj Malhotra. But Nitin demolished the arguments of import lobby with detailed posts and even took on Ajai Shukla. Ajai Shukla would later on change his views about Arjun. I think our understanding of Arjun owes a lot to Nitin. Rohitvats simply endorsed the views of BRF on Arjun but for everything else he was pro Imports, abusive and went with the General principle that Civilians cannot question military.

I don't think he questioned civilians questioning the military but what he definitely did object to was blanket statements and generalisations which seems to be par for the course.

Also the point is also that while he may have had his peculiarities has there been any other in this fora who has the depth of knowledge of the ARMY TOE that he has. There are a few but far between - so throw the baby out with the bathwater!!!!

And no I did not find him pro imports and if he was pithy then I dare say he had reason...

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 Aug 2017 11:42

negi wrote:I think we need to stop the cursory and unfair assessment of people who are no longer here to defend their view points. Actually this knee jerk assessment of things after T-90 failed in biathlon is also not right . Platforms beyond a point are just that i.e. platforms ; T-90 is better than a Abrams and LeoA5 when you look at it from the pov of Russians their 'need' is to field a tank in numbers which will make the whole proposition prohibitively expensive for even the Americans and Germans . Remember the design of Russian tanks is based on their philosophy to field light-medium armor in enough 'numbers' if someone can build Abrams or Merakavas in similar numbers with similar resources and money then sure no problem.

The issue with us is we are trying to evaluate platform versus another platform when debate is not around T-90 vs Arjun (at least beyond a certain point it is useless) ; the debate is around when does India get to achieve an ability where we can build and fix our tanks without any dependence on entities who you cannot guarantee will be able to supply us in times of need. I mean in the short term if you see things even Arjun won't fair any better in this department as lot of it's components are imported however what needs to be done is to take steps to get to that final state where only components which are a 'commodity' need to be imported but critical parts be made in-house . Arjun is Indian not because all of it's every component is made in India , it is Indian because if given the components we can build it here and maintain it on our own with T-90 that is not the case .

Thank you!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2017 11:47

negi wrote:I think we need to stop the cursory and unfair assessment of people who are no longer here to defend their view points. Actually this knee jerk assessment of things after T-90 failed in biathlon is also not right . Platforms beyond a point are just that i.e. platforms ; T-90 is better than a Abrams and LeoA5 when you look at it from the pov of Russians their 'need' is to field a tank in numbers which will make the whole proposition prohibitively expensive for even the Americans and Germans . Remember the design of Russian tanks is based on their philosophy to field light-medium armor in enough 'numbers' if someone can build Abrams or Merakavas in similar numbers with similar resources and money then sure no problem. Before we evaluate a platform it's design philosophy and objectives need to be accounted for lot of Russian military equipment was not made with idea of long usage and maintenance it was made from pov of easy to mass produce , use for x hours and replace it in entirety because latter was easier to achieve . The GSH guns on AC are actually built on similar lines .

That is not true , Have you seen performance of Abrams , Lecrac and other in Syria , yemen or Iraq and T-90 performance in Syria ? We have many videos and tons of discussion on its performance in Strategic Dhaga.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2017 11:54

Negi is spot on.Arjun is a heavier MBT developed for what we hope were our reqs. ,though quite some time ago,improved with feedback from the IA.
The Russian need -and to a large extent we have adopted a somewhat similar strategy is to have overwhelming numbers vs the enemy (Pak) ,possible with the lighter 3-man crewed T-series.If you examine costs,the T-72/90 are more cost-effective when compared with western MBTs ,allowing us to outnumber Paki MBTs significantly.Old reports said that we wanted to have around 4000-4500 MBTs by 2020.Thus all T-72s which can be upgraded and around 2000 T-90s were being planned for with around 4-500 Arjuns to achieve that number.However,slower production ,upgrades,continuous perfection of Arjun according to the IA's demands,seem to have slowed down matters across the board.There were some reports last yr. about 300-400 direct T-90 imports from Russia since our prod. was behind schedule.Reasons for this are numerous,but fundamentally,our DPSUs as expressed by the NDA regime has to get its act together. Where we are today is anyone's guess.

It isn't nice to see one's MBTs/T-90s fielded in a comp. break down to the extent that both copped out! One Q.Did we take part in prev. biathalons and what MBTs did we use if we did,and how did we perform?

negi · Post by **negi** » 14 Aug 2017 12:02

^ Well my point was about why anything made here needs to be supported Arjun is just one of them; secondly by my views on why T-90 is better for Russians I never meant Arjun being heavier is bad for us that argument actually is flawed for it is like using Roosi template to evaluate a platform for India.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Aug 2017 13:14

Philip wrote:One Q.Did we take part in prev. biathalons and what MBTs did we use if we did,and how did we perform?

We participated in past 3 years, with the T72B in 2014, the T72B3 in 2015,2016 and the T-90 in 2017

Year- Gold- Silver- Bronze
2014- Russia (T-72B3)- Armenia (T-72B)- China (Type 96A)
2015- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96A)- Serbia (T-72B3)
2016- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96A)- Kazakhstan (T-72B3)
2017- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96B)- Kazakhstan (T-72B3)

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Aug 2017 14:24

And while we are it.. here are the standings of the SETC (a somewhat similar comparative tank challenge from NATO)

Year- First- Second- Third
2016- Germany (Leopard 2A6)- Denmark (Leopard 2A5)- Poland (Leopard 2A5)
[other participants - USA (Abrams M1A2 SEP v2), Italy (Ariete), Slovenia (M84)]

2017- Austria (Leopard 2A4)- Germany (Leopard 2A6 )- USA (Abrams M1A2 SEP v2)
[other participants - France (Leclerc), Ukraine (T-64BM), Poland (Leopard 2A5)]

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 14 Aug 2017 14:52

Manish_P wrote:
Year- Gold- Silver- Bronze
2014- Russia (T-72B3)- Armenia (T-72B)- China (Type 96A)
2015- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96A)- Serbia (T-72B3)
2016- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96A)- Kazakhstan (T-72B3)
2017- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96B)- Kazakhstan (T-72B3)

Seems to me biathlon is nothing but Olympics type of thingy. It's just like dictatorial states East Germany, Soviet Union & China doing super mehnat for the sake of H&D on world stage.

Real war scenario professionalism of our Sena comes on top, like asal uttar.

So give army 2700 Arjun Tanks and rule the. Asia.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Aug 2017 15:41

^
That's the point

Real war scenarios - are just too varied in type and vast in scale and complex in planning and execution.

While a short exercise like a challange/competition gives some indicators/pointers, that's really about it.

Over a long drawn, real grind the experienced and competent professionals usually prevail

<OT>
There have been instances where part timers have beat full time veterans. (perhaps it happens more in the western countries with easier access to equipment/training)

In the US, a national guards team (comprising of an insurance agent, a Pepsi truck driver, college student, and a trainee police office) beat regular tank crews from the US army and marines in a 2016 competition. And i remember seeing on the Discovery channel, a US national guards sniper team beat the regular sniper teams from the US Special forces, the US army and other teams. Does that mean that Khan should disband their primary army and marine corps

</OT>

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2017 16:13

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
Year- Gold- Silver- Bronze
2014- Russia (T-72B3)- Armenia (T-72B)- China (Type 96A)
2015- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96A)- Serbia (T-72B3)
2016- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96A)- Kazakhstan (T-72B3)
2017- Russia (T-72B3)- China (Type 96B)- Kazakhstan (T-72B3)
Seems to me biathlon is nothing but Olympics type of thingy. It's just like dictatorial states East Germany, Soviet Union & China doing super mehnat for the sake of H&D on world stage.

Real war scenario professionalism of our Sena comes on top, like asal uttar.

So give army 2700 Arjun Tanks and rule the. Asia.

You can say that for any exercise in the world for Army Navy or Airforce be it Redflag or Tank Baithlon or something else , Its just a exercise where every one gets a fair chance to compete and perform ......In real war you may not get a fair chance to fight and with million probabilities and pressures of war it can bring out best out of men who may not have won any competition in their life

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 14 Aug 2017 16:46

To effectively deploy Arjun, it would be first necessary to strengthen the road/bridge infrastructure in the district/state of deployment, the railway network, repair and maintenance workshops, etc. Are we seeing any sight of that happening? Perhaps the Army realises that such investment in infra may not happen and therefore it would be unwise to ramp up on Arjun numbers.

Another thought may be purely defensive, as to how such an excellent infra can assist the enemy if they breakthrough.

Of course better infra will anyway be of value to civilian life, agriculture, industry etc. but that may not be the focus.

niran · Post by **niran** » 14 Aug 2017 17:13

VKumar wrote:To effectively deploy Arjun, it would be first necessary to strengthen the road/bridge infrastructure in the district/state of deployment, the railway network, repair and maintenance workshops, etc. Are we seeing any sight of that happening? Perhaps the Army realises that such investment in infra may not happen and therefore it would be unwise to ramp up on Arjun numbers.

Another thought may be purely defensive, as to how such an excellent infra can assist the enemy if they breakthrough.

Of course better infra will anyway be of value to civilian life, agriculture, industry etc. but that may not be the focus.

last year post URI attack a video of full regiment of Arjuns transported went viral, although it was a fake attempt at India mobilizing for war, but the Arjun's were real, they were travling to Thar, the same Indian railway carriage on the same tracks and bridges saar. never heard bridge collapse

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 14 Aug 2017 17:20

Thats very good news. So one major objection is removed - unless they carefully chose a route that can carry heavier loads than Txx

vnms · Post by **vnms** » 14 Aug 2017 17:46

I understand that there is reluctance amongst the DGMF to induct Arjun in large numbers citing weight issues and state of bridges. Cost benefit analysis would indicate that it would be cheaper to upgrade these bridges than importing foreign maal.

Or why don't we mov the Arjun regiments to the front line now as opposed to doing it after a war begins?

But based on a video clip that I saw, where Dovalji mentioned that tank warfare is a thing of the past, I'm not sure if the current govt. is going to do much for Arjun. I had held out hope to the eventual induction of Arjun in large numbers. I think we have to face the reality that Arjun in large numbers is not going to happen. FMBT is DOA because it will be another 20 yrs before we see the first 120 ordered. And then that too will go down the Arjun path.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Aug 2017 18:18

One does understand the difference between real & reel situations of course; Asal Uttar & all that. Then, why have we been participating without fail every year?

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Aug 2017 18:38

Sridhar sir - we have been participating every year without fail, and without failing

This is the first time we have failed.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Aug 2017 18:50

Manish, I do understand that. I didn't say we failed, did I? But, that was not my point. Sour grapes theory cannot be selective.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Aug 2017 19:05

Agreed, Sir. And yes I think I understand the point you are making.

Just that we will all be the wiser if we tone down the rhetoric a bit and focus more on an objective analysis.

With experienced and knowledgeable posters like you, Ramana ji etc showing the way (in the absence of Rohitvats).

Humble request onlee

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Aug 2017 19:17

My point is we cannot rejoice when we do well in Red Flag but suddenly remember reel vs. real when we are not doing so well.

Anyway, let's get on with regular programming.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Aug 2017 19:53

I think that it is not really an Arjun vs T-90 issue. Even if we had ordered 5000 Arjun and 50 T-90s, we could have still sent the T-90s. The issue is unfair treatment meted out to desi products viz a viz shameless promotion of foreign maal. If it was Arjun, this incident would have been called a "National Shame".

Look at China border, Nag & Namica would have been an excellent weapon system for the environment but why is it still in trials at Pokharan? We had a INSAS 7.62x51 trashed after an eminent no-nonsene General fired 20 rounds without stoppage but made a casual negative comment. So why is NDTV not going ballistic or retired- Army Generals not coming out of woodworks to abuse T-90???

As far as Rohitvats is concerned, we are always discussing (only) the people who are NOT on the forum. Is the T-90 crew or OFB on the BRF forum? Someone was pinning for Rohitvats in his absence. therefore, I pointed out that Nitin made the biggest contribution in bringing to light (with rational argument) discrimination against indigenous products on BRF. There was not a import actual or proposed that Rohitvats did not like. He abused almost everyone on BRF while himself having super thin skin. There was no topic in which he was not an expert. Writing long posts to justify imports is hallmark of only a self declared expert. He still carried the the out of fashion attitude of "You Civilians" know nothing!

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Aug 2017 20:05

SSridhar wrote:My point is we cannot rejoice when we do well in Red Flag but suddenly remember reel vs. real when we are not doing so well.

Anyway, let's get on with regular programming.

^^ +1

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Aug 2017 20:06

vnms wrote:I understand that there is reluctance amongst the DGMF to induct Arjun in large numbers citing weight issues and state of bridges. Cost benefit analysis would indicate that it would be cheaper to upgrade these bridges than importing foreign maal.

Or why don't we mov the Arjun regiments to the front line now as opposed to doing it after a war begins?

But based on a video clip that I saw, where Dovalji mentioned that tank warfare is a thing of the past, I'm not sure if the current govt. is going to do much for Arjun. I had held out hope to the eventual induction of Arjun in large numbers. I think we have to face the reality that Arjun in large numbers is not going to happen. FMBT is DOA because it will be another 20 yrs before we see the first 120 ordered. And then that too will go down the Arjun path.

Arjun is dead! Long live indigenisation! We were using Centurions successfully 40 years back which is 56 tons tank. We simply do not have an indigenisation lobby or think tanks to support deep indigenisation. Babus and Politicos find it convenient to go along with motivated chorus created for imports. For instance, is Spike ATGMs really necessary? Whether any nation in the world except USA has bought such huge numbers of super costly IR seeker based ATGMs? Price of indigenous ATGMs is 1/10th of Spike but we will import Spike which may never be used in preference from say thermal Imagers which are immediate necessity for our largely night blind infantry daily fighting terrorists and naxalites. What is more essential 8000 Spike missiles or 80,000 NVDs which can end Night blindness of our infantry? Can we not provide seed money of Rs. 1000 crores which is being requisitioned for 30 years to set up IR seeker detector facility??

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Aug 2017 20:15

BTW check out the first page of this thread.

It's about.... the 2014 Tank Biathlon

Anyway +2 to the below

let's get on with regular programming.