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Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

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Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2014 09:40

Link to last page previous thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6316&start=4320

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2014 12:20

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/08/06 ... 37235.html

Image

How long have you been using the T-72, and do you like this machine?


We have been working with this type of tank since 1979. This is a very good tank.

What are its main advantages in your opinion?

First of all, it's the tank’s good armour protection, as well as its high power output.

How many days have you had in order to prepare for the competition in Russia?

In Russia I had about three weeks. We also had a lot of preparations at home.

Are the machines you use in India somehow different from the machines on which you trained here, and on which you are going to compete?

There are no particular differences. The communication systems are slightly different.

Were the Tank biathlon participants in India recruited from ordinary soldiers, or do you have some special subdivisions for such purposes?

A selection was made from several regiments, the best of them were selected, from whom the crews were formed.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2014 12:20

Photos of Chinese Type 96A from the competition

http://gurkhan.blogspot.in/2014/08/96.html

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 09 Aug 2014 12:26

negi wrote:Mobility, accuracy of firepower and most importantly crew's skill will be tested in this exercise however afaik tank/crew protection is not tested in this exercise so in theory one has an advantage in a T-72 as against a modern heavy tank in this event imho akin to judging an AC by it's aerobatic display. We should have taken Arjun there if we are representing India might as well take made in India(no not for the heck for it but because Arjun is in service) there, it would have given us a nice opportunity to see how it fairs.


Yes its about Crew Skills , Tactics and Firepower but not about protection , I dont think any exercise will test protection until you meet your real enemy.

This is first time we have participated may be in future we might take Arjun , this is certainly a good place to test Arjun and its crew Skill should be of good tactical advantage

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Kersi D » 09 Aug 2014 17:13

Austin wrote:
negi wrote:Mobility, accuracy of firepower and most importantly crew's skill will be tested in this exercise however afaik tank/crew protection is not tested in this exercise so in theory one has an advantage in a T-72 as against a modern heavy tank in this event imho akin to judging an AC by it's aerobatic display. We should have taken Arjun there if we are representing India might as well take made in India(no not for the heck for it but because Arjun is in service) there, it would have given us a nice opportunity to see how it fairs.


Yes its about Crew Skills , Tactics and Firepower but not about protection , I dont think any exercise will test protection until you meet your real enemy.

This is first time we have participated may be in future we might take Arjun , this is certainly a good place to test Arjun and its crew Skill should be of good tactical advantage


YES. We should have taken Arjun. But if Arjun had won laurel then ?????????????????????

Many persons, in India and outside India too, would not like it


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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Khalsa » 12 Aug 2014 01:39

Austin wrote:Tank biathlon 2014 : Photos

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/950762.html

Indian Crew and Family :

http://photo.qip.ru/photo/ja-budda/4295 ... 075374.jpg


ah my beautiful EME ... where would the Tankers be without you ...
:D

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby rkhanna » 12 Aug 2014 09:25

as an FYI The Russians are operating a Heavily upgraded T-72 which puts it near to T-90M standards.. Everybody else got the same Base t-72

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Khalsa » 12 Aug 2014 14:14

rkhanna wrote:as an FYI The Russians are operating a Heavily upgraded T-72 which puts it near to T-90M standards.. Everybody else got the same Base t-72


source ?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Ashokk » 12 Aug 2014 14:33

Khalsa wrote:
rkhanna wrote:as an FYI The Russians are operating a Heavily upgraded T-72 which puts it near to T-90M standards.. Everybody else got the same Base t-72


source ?

"Наши выступали на последней модификации Т-72Б3. Что не совсем честно по отношению к другим экипажами, за исключением, разве что китайского."
Translation: Our guys are using the latest modification (of T-72) T-72B3 . This is not absolutely fair in relation to the other crews, maybe with the exception of the Chinese (who have their own tank).
So scales are tilted in favor of our roosi friends

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Khalsa » 13 Aug 2014 02:34

Cool. Seems unfair indeed
Did we get choice to pick what we wanted or was it take it or leave it situation ?

Anyhow I think the competition needs to go the way the Chinese are taking it.
Bring your tank of choice (imported or desi).

The Canadian Army trophy sees everyone bring their own tanks. The Brits, Ze Germans , Amreekans etc.
No points for guessing what the Canadians must be using.

After all at such events, if these crews and machines are peacetime representation of our quality and equipment then the Pakis are certainly not going to turn up to fight us in baselined T-72s or the Chinese for that matter, now are they ?

We need to bring Ajeyas or Bhishma or Arjuns to the field

This reminds me... wasn't there a rumour or news that Amreekans were coming too to this Russian event ?
What were they going to fight in .. ?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2014 03:33

there is no point in attending these events on baseline T72. what does it prove at all?
even the IA has moved on to T90.
its large force networking and cohesion that counts now.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 13 Aug 2014 07:38

It seems all countries were told to get their own tank if not they were provided , They were given T-72B and Russian got T-72B3 which they use ....barring except the chinese.

On paper the Chinese tank is better than T-72B but scored badly on all chart they did not even end in top 3 , Its more about the skills and tactics of the crew that mattered most. Kazakhstan using T-72B is just a few single digit points behind Russias

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby krishnan » 14 Aug 2014 13:14

Chinese seems to have been busy in something else, hard to believe they will come 7th

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 14 Aug 2014 13:26

I read they have improved since then there are multiple competitions withing Baithlon the end result will be known soon.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby rkhanna » 14 Aug 2014 14:10

Chinese seems to have been busy in something else, hard to believe they will come 7th


The Chinese were also one of the only 2 crews that didnt garner any penalty points and operated within the rules..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 14 Aug 2014 16:29

Some update on Chinese performance I came across on mp.net , Looks like Chinese had a tank as good as Russians one but their crew performance was the worst of lot.

since this competition is about skill more than anything else, they still landed way behind in most disciplines and stages, and are behind all SSSR states, even the ones riding worse tanks, and other countries. Since it's about skill, they managed to screw up things that the tanks superior systems can't correct. They drowned their engine because they don't know how to drive through water obstacles properly (and were parked directly after that obstacle and couldn't move any more), they banged their tank against the wall in the pit and tore off their sideskirts, they missed targets even though the FCS does all the work for them, they have pretty bad times in the sprint/lap driving course even though they have a powerful engine and the auto transmission does most of the work for them (which should make them at least 1. or 2. place with Russia whose tank has the same setup, while all others have a weaker 840hp engine and a manual transmission, but knowing how to drive evidently counts more than the setup you are in), and so on.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby rkhanna » 14 Aug 2014 16:46

^^ Austin do you have a URL for the above Info.. Would love to plaster it in some other Forums as well :roll:

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 14 Aug 2014 18:51

rkhanna wrote:^^ Austin do you have a URL for the above Info.. Would love to plaster it in some other Forums as well :roll:


Found it here http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost7335386

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby negi » 15 Aug 2014 11:50

krishnan wrote:Chinese seems to have been busy in something else, hard to believe they will come 7th

One can never tell about the slimy lizard, they might have known that exercise is of little tactical value so just went through the motions and keep everyone guessing.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Karan M » 15 Aug 2014 19:18

negi, they will never voluntarily lose face publicly.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Liu » 17 Aug 2014 19:44

Austin wrote:Some update on Chinese performance I came across on mp.net , Looks like Chinese had a tank as good as Russians one but their crew performance was the worst of lot.

since this competition is about skill more than anything else, they still landed way behind in most disciplines and stages, and are behind all SSSR states, even the ones riding worse tanks, and other countries. Since it's about skill, they managed to screw up things that the tanks superior systems can't correct. They drowned their engine because they don't know how to drive through water obstacles properly (and were parked directly after that obstacle and couldn't move any more), they banged their tank against the wall in the pit and tore off their sideskirts, they missed targets even though the FCS does all the work for them, they have pretty bad times in the sprint/lap driving course even though they have a powerful engine and the auto transmission does most of the work for them (which should make them at least 1. or 2. place with Russia whose tank has the same setup, while all others have a weaker 840hp engine and a manual transmission, but knowing how to drive evidently counts more than the setup you are in), and so on.







1. CHina didn't sent it best in-service tank T99 for the competition.
T96a costs only 1/3 of T99 and are mainly deployed in South CHina .

2. so, it is quite open that T96 has a cheaper and poorter engine(only 740HP) than T72 and its moblitiy is also poorer than T72.
it is not because China has no better engine,but because CHinese designer want to control the cost of T96.

in fact, T99 has a engine of 1500MP,which can match that of M1A2 and lepard 2 and is much better than T72.

3.T96a has better fire control system than T72 ,and can lock moving targets much easily than T72.

as the competition video shows T96a can easily lock and destroy moving targets without braking or slowing down.
however, when T72 were locking target ,they all had to brake and slow down.
In fact, many people even argue that moving T72 can not lock moving tagets at all.
while T96a FCS assure that moving T96a can easily lock moving targets.

4. T96 has Welded turret,which people usually think it has better defence capacity than Casting turret of T72.

5. according to CHinese information resource, T96a's cannon is almost as good as T99a,which is better than T72..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Khalsa » 18 Aug 2014 04:14

Liu

I assume you are RED banner guy.

Do you know why the Type 99 wasn't sent.
I am not trolling... I am honestly interested at why the best tanks were not in this event.
From the Russian side and yours.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby PratikDas » 18 Aug 2014 05:45

If anyone sends their best tank to the competition and the tank ends up performing very poorly, e.g. targets are often missed, engines stall, tracks come off, etc., it would reflect very poorly and perhaps irreparably on the perceived military capability of that whole unit and perhaps even the nation.

It is much more forgiving to blame poor performance on a team's unfamiliarity with a tank much older or much less sophisticated that what the team allegedly uses. ;)

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby ashi » 18 Aug 2014 10:37

T-96 vs T-72 main gun shooting.

T-96s have 100% hit rate during the competition and can shoot while at motion. T-72s need to almost stop or at very low speed to shoot a stationary target. In real battle scenarios, i think T-96 is in good favor.



7 mins. version

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzU3MjU2NjA0.html

And China won bronze metal in the competition even the competition is heavily emphasis on speed and mobility, which may not be a major factor at actual battle field.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 18 Aug 2014 11:02

ashi wrote:And China won bronze metal in the competition even the competition is heavily emphasis on speed and mobility, which may not be a major factor at actual battle field.


It was not just speed and mobility but firepower , tactics , crew skill every thing was covered short of testing the armour , if you check dberwal link it list various task that tank crew needs to do.

If T-96A had better firepower and mobility then it probably failed to fully utilise it due to skills of tank crew.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 18 Aug 2014 11:05

Final Results of Tank Baithlon 2014
http://www.russiadefence.net/t3314-tank ... 2014#62406

Russia - 1 h 15 min 13 sec.
Armenia - 1 h 20 min 03 sec.
China - 1 h 30 min 56 sec.
Kazachstan - 1 h 34 min 11 sec.

First place (russia) recieved gold Tank Biathlon cup.
Armenia recieved a brandnew T-90 tank as price.
Tank crew for 1st, 2nd and 3rd places have received Gold medals.

4th Belarus, 5th India, 6th Kyrgyzia

The leading person of each participating tank crew will recieve UAZ Patriot from UVZ company.

http://pro-tank.ru/blog/1360-world-cup- ... thlon-2014

Winners of tank biathlon will given gold plated tank miniature of T-72B for tank biathlon and for APC/IFV they will recieve BMP-2 miniature.

http://rt.com/news/169084-tank-biathlon-winners-gold/

3rd stage was for testing crew without tanks on a parkour.

http://pro-tank.ru/blog/1358-tank-biathlon-2014-sports

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby ashi » 18 Aug 2014 11:21

Austin wrote:
ashi wrote:And China won bronze metal in the competition even the competition is heavily emphasis on speed and mobility, which may not be a major factor at actual battle field.


It was not just speed and mobility but firepower , tactics , crew skill every thing was covered short of testing the armour , if you check dberwal link it list various task that tank crew needs to do.

If T-96A had better firepower and mobility then it probably failed to fully utilise it due to skills of tank crew.


Nope, T-96 has better FCS and armor, but not mobility. It is few tons heavier than T-72 but has 300hp less than Russian's T72B3. So no surprise at not getting the gold medal at a competition designed by Russian to tailor to his tank.

You could go to the link your lost earlier and read "trainguy"'s post.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 19 Aug 2014 09:27

If tank made those difference then Armenia with T-72B is just 5 mins few sec from Russia and Kazak time is also close ,while the difference between Armenia and china is 10 mins , so Armenia with older T-72B like the rest of others showed they can be 2nd in the game.

BTW the chinese bought the T-96A and not T-96 .

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby negi » 19 Aug 2014 09:44

The exercise is tailored for Ru needs it has vast expanses of open fields adjoining East Europe and even in the south to protect , they need numbers instead of knights in shining armour like Merkava or Leo 5 which even the west cannot afford in huge numbers . The summer is forgiving in Roos so they don't need to pack in a big AC which is a huge power drain. All in all for them the T-72 platform is a nice baseline for their use-case.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Austin » 19 Aug 2014 10:26

Arjun in Barracuda Cammo

http://i.imgur.com/OjgDuuA.jpg?1?7235

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Khalsa » 19 Aug 2014 12:50

ashi wrote:Nope, T-96 has better FCS and armor, but not mobility. It is few tons heavier than T-72 but has 300hp less than Russian's T72B3. So no surprise at not getting the gold medal at a competition designed by Russian to tailor to his tank.


Ashi

then why turn up for a Russian designed biathalon that favours their tank.
Atleast the Chinese could have turned up in a T-72

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby ashi » 20 Aug 2014 12:36

Khalsa wrote:
ashi wrote:Nope, T-96 has better FCS and armor, but not mobility. It is few tons heavier than T-72 but has 300hp less than Russian's T72B3. So no surprise at not getting the gold medal at a competition designed by Russian to tailor to his tank.


Ashi

then why turn up for a Russian designed biathalon that favours their tank.
Atleast the Chinese could have turned up in a T-72


Why is a medal so important? Showing what T-96A is capable of (potentially draws customers) and learning what others are doing far out weights a medal.

And you can't switch a tank overnight. A good F-16 pilot can't fly a SU30 equally good in a few days. It takes learning and training.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby chackojoseph » 20 Aug 2014 15:46

Whatever Russia did in this was self glorification. China inspite of it was as usual good even if its tank performed poor third. Russians had all the advantage, notwithstanding superior Chinese FCS and armour. So, Chinese tanks are the best.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Rien » 20 Aug 2014 15:49

Austin wrote:Final Results of Tank Baithlon 2014
http://www.russiadefence.net/t3314-tank ... 2014#62406

Russia - 1 h 15 min 13 sec.
Armenia - 1 h 20 min 03 sec.
China - 1 h 30 min 56 sec.
Kazachstan - 1 h 34 min 11 sec.

First place (russia) recieved gold Tank Biathlon cup.
Armenia recieved a brandnew T-90 tank as price.
Tank crew for 1st, 2nd and 3rd places have received Gold medals.

4th Belarus, 5th India, 6th Kyrgyzia

<snip>


China came in 3rd, we came in 5th. Are Chinese tank crews better trained than ours?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby rkhanna » 20 Aug 2014 15:51

China came in 3rd, we came in 5th. Are Chinese tank crews better trained than ours?




Well the more important thing is we finished behind Kazac, Armenia and Belarus?! They had the same Gear as us! The Chinese Crew had a better tank and so did the Russians.. I would expect them to finish above us simply the way the Course is set up.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Khalsa » 21 Aug 2014 05:45

ashi wrote:Why is a medal so important? Showing what T-96A is capable of (potentially draws customers) and learning what others are doing far out weights a medal.
And you can't switch a tank overnight. A good F-16 pilot can't fly a SU30 equally good in a few days. It takes learning and training.


I agree with you. Its a great opportunity to showcase what you intend to sell.
Regardless of how the Russkie designed it ... there was another aim for the Chinese and that was to showcase their product.
However coming third behind behind two instances of T-72 does not bode well for prospective customers.

This is almost beginning to sound like the chicken and the egg conversation so next time come first ... ;-)
Until next year

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby uddu » 21 Aug 2014 06:58

Next time Arjun and lets come first. :)

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby uddu » 21 Aug 2014 07:11

New defensive aids for MBT Arjun proven in trials
August 19, 2014: An advanced laser warning countermeasure system and a mobile camouflage system have recently been tested and proven on the Arjun MBT Mk.II in the Mahajan Field Firing Range in Rajasthan. Both capabilities will be strong survivability factors on the new improved tanks as it heads into a crucial phase of user trials. The new camouflage system has been developed to provide multi-spectral signature management for Arjun Mk.II, in order to protect the vehicle against all enemy sensors and smart munitions. According to the CVRDE, "The performance evaluation trials have been conducted at MFFR and system has been integrated in the Arjun MBT." The advanced laser warning countermeasure system has been developed to increase survivability of Arjun Mk.II against anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) with semi automatic command to line-of-sight (SACLOS) system, ATGMs with a laser target designator, beam rider ATGMs, and tanks fitted with a laser range finder. During recent trials, the ALWCS was integrated with the Arjun's integrated fire control system.

Expecting to see a huge order of 2000+ Arjun MK-II

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9 , 2014

Postby Vivek K » 21 Aug 2014 07:39

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the order!


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