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Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

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sum
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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby sum » 08 Aug 2017 14:23

Whatever we mock on the Type-96/99/1000/xyz , they are persisting with it and slowly but surely they will iron out all the issues and make it a true world class beast.

While we will keep subsidising Russian factories or designers and pour $$ on them in the pursuit of the perfect one while a decent homegrown option will be left to rust in the sidelines

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby jayasimha » 08 Aug 2017 19:03

https://ofbeproc.gov.in/scripts/itt_pq/ ... 62/EOI.pdf

Expression of interest for manufacture and supply of castings as required for armoured vehicles

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Aug 2017 21:20

Manish_P wrote:^ Yes, good times. :) Miss Sanku ji. He used to be very active on the Tanks and Military transport Aircraft forums. I don't see his posts now. Hope he is around.

Yes I too looked for him, where is he, someone also asked about it, read on one of the forums that he got a permaban

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Rakesh » 09 Aug 2017 04:44

aditp wrote:Not a very encouraging result, especially against China that is using its own design. Wonder how the home grown "Desert Ferrari" would have fared. IA should have sent atleast 1 team of Arjun Tanks.

Check this out....pretty cool...even though we did not come in the top 3....

T-90 Bhishma MBT of 7 Light Cavalry crossing Bridge Layer without touching any wall. Only tank to achieve the feat.
https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 8337858560

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Aug 2017 05:10

FWIW, I noted on India defence forums that chinese are moving ahead on speed, but missing a lot of targets.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 09 Aug 2017 06:56

aditp wrote:Not a very encouraging result,

Like the student who always comes first in tests also does best in life.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby negi » 10 Aug 2017 09:39

^ Yeah , my reading is this biathlon is mostly favoring speed over everything else , for sure in vast fields of Eurasia aspects of this exercise are relevant , however question is in Indian theater how much of this is relevant.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby darshhan » 10 Aug 2017 10:08

shiv wrote:
aditp wrote:Not a very encouraging result,

Like the student who always comes first in tests also does best in life.


Ha ha. Good one

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 10 Aug 2017 11:29

Maybe there was more emphasis on speed. But i thought i saw disciplines involving loading/refueling, firing etc

Most of the shooting however seemed to be done from a stand-still.

(possibly my error - since i saw only snippets/short videos)

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Vivek K » 10 Aug 2017 22:51

sum wrote:Whatever we mock on the Type-96/99/1000/xyz , they are persisting with it and slowly but surely they will iron out all the issues and make it a true world class beast.

While we will keep subsidising Russian factories or designers and pour $$ on them in the pursuit of the perfect one while a decent homegrown option will be left to rust in the sidelines

+1! We pretend to have a large fleet of MBTs but how many are operational at any moment? How many derelict T-72s are included in the number?

Buying junk T-series in the thousands cements India's positions at the bottom of the pile with respect to power projection.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Gagan » 11 Aug 2017 00:50

The problem with all these smoothbore russian tank guns is accuracy
One can see tanks miss targets from a stationary position.

Now most of these are T-90s, a few T-72s, and the chinese Type-99
The 90s have a fully stabilized gun, while the 72s unless they are upgraded, stabilization is not too good, either way not much different when firing stationary to stationary target

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby DavidD » 11 Aug 2017 02:21

The tank biathlon is primarily a speed test, that's why Russian T-72s with their suped up 1200hp engines always come out ahead. Indian T90S and Chinese T-96Bs are a bit weaker in the engine department, so will lag behind a bit. Anyhow, the next stage is relay races, which includes firing on the move. I don't think accuracy matters in the scoring, but I'm sure there'll be videos on how well each tank does.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Surya » 11 Aug 2017 06:33

hmm the T90s had engine failure?

oh well

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby shiv » 11 Aug 2017 07:49

Taking a leaf out of the wisdom that the Tank biathlon is an indicator of fighting ability, it has been decided that top athletes of the nation will be inducted into the armed forces to do the fighting. Chaiwala told me that Virat Kohli, Vijender Singh and PV Sindhu have been told to report at Doklam

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 11 Aug 2017 09:59

DavidD wrote:. I don't think accuracy matters in the scoring, but I'm sure there'll be videos on how well each tank does.


Accuracy does matter. Misses impose a time penalty, either direct or in the form of extra lap/distance (which adds to time)

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_P » 11 Aug 2017 21:18

Some details about the penalties here - 2017 Army Games International

Check out the section on Penalties at the bottom of the page..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Surya » 11 Aug 2017 22:34

no comments on T 90s breakdown :eek:

waiting for the usual suspect to say poor maintenance,PSU quality yada yada

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby DavidD » 11 Aug 2017 23:46

Manish_P wrote:Some details about the penalties here - 2017 Army Games International

Check out the section on Penalties at the bottom of the page..


You're right, thanks! An extra lap, quite severe penalty actually, I guess that's why some of the participants stretch it to like 40, 50 mins or even more.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby pralay » 11 Aug 2017 23:56

The Indian Army has been knocked out of the high-profile international tank biathlon taking place at the Alabino ranges in the Moscow region of Russia after both the main and reserve T-90 main battle tanks developed mechanical problems.

As a result of the breakdown of both tanks, the Indian squad was unable to complete the race and were disqualified. This is a sad end to the competition for the Army's tank crews since they had topped their group in the earlier round and were seen to be strong challengers to win the competition.

Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and China have now entered the final round of the event. Russia and Kazakhstan participated with T-72B3 tanks, Belarus with a modernised T-72 and China sent its indigenous Type 96B. India decided to field its top of the line Russian designed T-90 Main Battle Tank instead of the indigenous Arjun tank which was widely expected to participate at the games this time.

Nineteen teams in total participated in the exercises with the top four entering the final. In the past, India had participated in these games using T-72 tanks provided by the Russian hosts. The Army felt disadvantaged using these tanks and was keen to field its best tanks and best crews. Consequently, two state-of-the-art T-90s were shipped across to Russia for these games.

Each participating team has up to 21 personnel including team members, a coaching crew and a maintenance unit. There are three stages in the competition - all teams participated in the individual race. Twelve teams made it to the semi-finals including India which involved a relay race. The top four teams will also participate in a relay race in the finals.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/after-bo ... eststories

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby ArjunPandit » 12 Aug 2017 00:15

honestly it might not be a bad thing to happen.
1. It's better to see these things happen in peace time rather than actual war time (if there is anything unknown they will now know the reason)
2. May be may be some sense would prevail to ask if this uber cool vodka T90 also breaks down then why not the poor daal roti of arjun,

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby DrRatnadip » 12 Aug 2017 00:22

I dont even want to imagine what would have happened if we were knocked out with Arjun.. This was very beautiful opportunity to show world capabilitied of this beast.. Sad we missed it..

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby suryag » 12 Aug 2017 03:31

Haa haa the tin cans showed their real worth overseas too, feel sorry for the men manning this rust bucket

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Mort Walker » 12 Aug 2017 10:47

DrRatnadip wrote:I dont even want to imagine what would have happened if we were knocked out with Arjun.. This was very beautiful opportunity to show world capabilitied of this beast.. Sad we missed it..


The Arjun would not have broken down since the IA and MoD control the entire logistics chain and know what part fails the most. They would have been ready. With Russian garbage we don't know what will break next. What a terrible waste of money with the T-90. The Chinese brought their own tank, albeit a copy of something, but they know its weak points.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 12 Aug 2017 11:13

Surya wrote:no comments on T 90s breakdown :eek:

waiting for the usual suspect to say poor maintenance,PSU quality yada yada


The only solution is to order another 1500 t 90 and order the development of arjun mk 3 while canceling orders arjun mk2.

Oh I forgot, for the fmbt, release a gsqr that only the t 14 can meet.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 12 Aug 2017 11:16

ArjunPandit wrote:honestly it might not be a bad thing to happen.
1. It's better to see these things happen in peace time rather than actual war time (if there is anything unknown they will now know the reason)
2. May be may be some sense would prevail to ask if this uber cool vodka T90 also breaks down then why not the poor daal roti of arjun,



Why have tank break down to begin with. Not like they were operating in thar in peak summers. Where the mechanical reliability of the tank can come down due to the environmental factors.

Or the parts used were of so poor quality that they simply could not meet the desired time before failure.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby pralay » 12 Aug 2017 11:29

I think the mechanical parts of T90 came under tremendous psychological pressure due to hype and expectations of the spectators on home ground and some russ-import-pasand users on BRF.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 12 Aug 2017 11:45

T-90 breaks down in the host nation, in moderate climate, the breakdown is evidently severe & tank cannot be repaired. Not one but Both the tanks break down, these would be obviously the best tanks & not over used ones. But no chest beating in media. Hail Import lobby for its efficiency.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby sum » 12 Aug 2017 12:00

Pathetic news to see both T90 break down in their host country ( so no excuse of hot weather etc) while the much ridiculed (on BRF) type9x of Chinese still marches on.

Just shows that determination to keep going will bear fruits like how Chinese have done despite inferior performances at the start of their project and not thrown it out in favour of some readily available shinier toy

As always,we will have stories of how this doesnt prove anything etc but in my eyes, if a unit has succcesfully conducted a overseas deployment and participated in a gruelling schedule with not too much issues,its a great achievement and not some thing to be scoffed at and kudos to Chinese for that for doing it with their homegrown baby

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2017 13:17

Indian Tankers did not do much well in tank competition
Much like last year this year performance was much to be desired

We seem to be the only country where we are disqualified due to break down , barring the Chinese all other participants are using t 72b3 or t90 and few countries did better than us

Hopefully this would serve as an experience for our crews to do better next time and hopefully we take Arjun tank no better place to advertise the tanks capability with close to dozen country participating in this

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Aug 2017 13:25

ArjunPandit wrote:
Manish_P wrote:^ Yes, good times. :) Miss Sanku ji. He used to be very active on the Tanks and Military transport Aircraft forums. I don't see his posts now. Hope he is around.

Yes I too looked for him, where is he, someone also asked about it, read on one of the forums that he got a permaban


I remember having lots of fights with him in this very thread, but on nuclear threads and detterance threads I learned a lot from him.

He has been banned permanently. I wish all 3 posters Arun_S, Spinster/Pentiah & Sanku get invited back in uplakshya of 20 years completion.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby sum » 12 Aug 2017 13:31

Austin wrote:Indian Tankers did not do much well in tank competition
Much like last year this year performance was much to be desired

We seem to be the only country where we are disqualified due to break down , barring the Chinese all other participants are using t 72b3 or t90 and few countries did better than us

Hopefully this would serve as an experience for our crews to do better next time and hopefully we take Arjun tank no better place to advertise the tanks capability with close to dozen country participating in this

News reports at start had mentioned that our best unit and best folk were participating. :( :evil:

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Marten » 12 Aug 2017 13:53

Awaiting Karnail, Jarnail defenders of DGMF who will badmouth armchair tankers here who dare question additional orders of Rooskiya Maal. Even the Arjun would not have won. But it certainly would not have embarrassed India in this fashion. Opinion onlee, of course because after 6,000 Kms of trials, the Arjun still needs another superAUCRT of 15,000kms and nonstop performance for three years before we dare pit it in face to face tests vs the Tincans.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 12 Aug 2017 13:59

So are we blaming the crew or the training now?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Pratyush » 12 Aug 2017 15:32

Arjun is inferior and deserves to be thrown in the Mariana trench along with the designers and all the tools which made it. So that India never dreams to design any new tanks.

P s import Armata.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2017 16:21

More details from Vishnu Som

After Both Tanks Break Down, India Knocked Out Of International Drill

Nineteen teams in total participated in the exercises with the top four entering the final. In the past, India had participated in these games using T-72 tanks provided by the Russian hosts.

New Delhi:
Highlights

Indian Army knocked out of International Tank Biathlon in Russia
Army chose Russian designed T-90 Tank instead of indigenous Arjun tank
India topped the group in earlier round, was seen as strong challenger

The Indian Army has been knocked out of the high-profile international tank biathlon taking place at the Alabino ranges in the Moscow region of Russia after both the main and reserve T-90 main battle tanks developed mechanical problems.

As a result of the breakdown of both tanks, the Indian squad was unable to complete the race and were disqualified. This is a sad end to the competition for the Army's tank crews since they had topped their group in the earlier round and were seen to be strong challengers to win the competition.

Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan and China have now entered the final round of the event. Russia and Kazakhstan participated with T-72B3 tanks, Belarus with a modernised T-72 and China sent its indigenous Type 96B. India decided to field its top of the line Russian designed T-90 Main Battle Tank instead of the indigenous Arjun tank which was widely expected to participate at the games this time.

Nineteen teams in total participated in the exercises with the top four entering the final. In the past, India had participated in these games using T-72 tanks provided by the Russian hosts. The Army felt disadvantaged using these tanks and was keen to field its best tanks and best crews. Consequently, two state-of-the-art T-90s were shipped across to Russia for these games.

Each participating team has up to 21 personnel including team members, a coaching crew and a maintenance unit. There are three stages in the competition - all teams participated in the individual race. Twelve teams made it to the semi-finals including India which involved a relay race. The top four teams will also participate in a relay race in the finals.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Austin » 12 Aug 2017 16:23

Gyan wrote:So are we blaming the crew or the training now?


Too early to blame any one could been a freak incident too but I suspect if they rule out Crew Maintenance Lapses or logistic oversight from the participating team then IA would be knocking at OFB door soon for QC/QA issue

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 12 Aug 2017 17:22

Even the engine of these tanks can be changed in half hour. But in this case Breakdown was so severe in both tanks that there was no hope of repairing them. Chinese were able to remain in competition inspite of wheel coming off, so something worse happened to our Ruski maal. Very soon we will find news items blaming Crew, OFB, indigenous components or even saying that we did not want to disclose our super capabilities to Chinese.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Viv S » 12 Aug 2017 20:18

Austin wrote:Indian Tankers did not do much well in tank competition
Much like last year this year performance was much to be desired

Please. Don't blame the tank crews for the reliability of their equipment.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby sum » 12 Aug 2017 20:25

Gyan wrote:Even the engine of these tanks can be changed in half hour. But in this case Breakdown was so severe in both tanks that there was no hope of repairing them. Chinese were able to remain in competition inspite of wheel coming off, so something worse happened to our Ruski maal. Very soon we will find news items blaming Crew, OFB, indigenous components or even saying that we did not want to disclose our super capabilities to Chinese.

Sir,agree with all the points you mentioned but the wheel coming off the type96 was not from this year.
I believe there was no major issue with the type96 so far in this competition

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Re: Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

Postby Gyan » 12 Aug 2017 22:12

Point taken but I suppose even last year Chinese were able to complete the competition. Reading articles of such past western competitions, lot of tanks face problems but complete the competition. It's extraordinary that both the tanks packed up so completely. Competition support teams can practically rebuild a tank in few hours.

And we are to believe that these super duper tanks are spectacular in June Rajasthan heat and desert sand? While facing enemy fire & poor support maintenance in war time?

Even Akash missile had 66% success rate in first batch while T-90 has 100% failure rate.


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