Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

[srai]

Folks do we know the bridge load capacity of the Engineering regiments?
And the bridge laying tanks?

How much load in tonnes can they safely carry?

All the DRDO designed are MLC-70 rated.

• 5m Short Span Bridging System (SSBS)
• 10m Short Span Bridging System (SSBS)
• 15m - 75m SARVATRA Bridging System
• 14m - 46m Modular MLC 70 Bridge
• 22m T-72 Bridge Layer Tank (BLT)
• 24m/26m Arjun Bridge Layer Tank (BLT)

DRDO Monographs Series: Military Bridging

[shiv]

And by the way there will be no tank battles on China front. Where is the tankable country?

Aksai Chin is tank country. Bum-La area is tank country

Every kilogram counts as one tries to get higher and higher in altitude using air logistics and that is why light tanks have found themselves in high altitude battles more often than heavies. The T-72 is proven air-transportable into Ladakh and has been inducted.

[shiv]

Video outs a deadly LoC secret. Indian Army using tanks to inflict punitive strikes along the border

Transformers: Retired tanks functioning as bunkers

This is a bad idea if it is actually being implemented.

Why? I think it is a great idea. Old weaponry lying unused is often positioned at odd places - like old L-70s used against Paki bunkers. A tank is a natural pillbox with better offensive weapons than any pillbox. Tanks are often used in static defences as well as Centurions were used in Asal Uttar 1965

[Singha]

a while back there was proposal to import 300 polish anders light tanks for the mountain strike corps. but it got cancelled in favour of T72.
all we needed was another unique type beholden to another shaky foreign OEM.

I think 3 x T72 regiments - some 160 tanks are already onsite in ladakh demchok region , after a long gap when T72 were deinducted in some CBM in mid 90s.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/T ... 497629.ece

we could use many more regiments up there .. we have a lot of T72 .... rather than sit idle facing TSP, better to use them to needle the dlagon

[Singha]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 67441.html

A back-up reserve has been created called the ‘loop battalions’. These are kept acclimatised for any need for induction at these rarefied-oxygen heights of 14,000 feet.
However, the biggest move is the tanks. The plateaus interspersed in the folds of the major mountain ranges — the Greater Himalayas, Karokaram, Ladakh and Zanskar — are ideal tank country, flat with ample places to hide in the folds of the valleys.
Colonel Vijay Dalal, who is commanding an armoured unit, says: “We have to use additives and use winter grade diesel. In the winter, every night the tanks parked in garages are revved up a couple of times to prevent the parts from freezing.”
During the 1962 India-China war, five of the US-built AMX-13 tanks were airlifted. In his book ‘My Years with the IAF’, former IAF chief PC Lal explains the great difficulty faced in modifying the AN-12 transport planes to airlift the tanks.
Not just the accretions, the fortified defences, new bunker-style positions, dot the mountain spurs along the LAC. New fortified roads that allow 50-tonne tanks to drive are showing up, maybe India is ‘designing a battlefield’ to suit its strengths. At least numerically, the Indian move promises to hold back any aggression by China.

[Singha]

and backup by loads and loads of Rudras and LCH needed - infact all our armed gunships should be deployed in the mountains. the plains formations have lot of other assets and chances of a major war with TSP very low.

[rohitvats]

So, no tank battles on China front, is it? Do tell that to the army which raised an independent armored brigade for Eastern Ladakh. And someone like Lt Gen Panag, who literally wrote SOP for fighting mechanized warfare in this sector, feels we need more such assets. At least one more armored brigade!

And horror of horrors, they're going to have/ already have another armored brigade for north Sikkim. Ye God's, these army walas have gone bonkers!!!

What do they know. Bunch of idiotic!

Oh, BTW, has anyone seen pics of Indian Army excercise in desert involving canal crossing operations? Now these army chaps must be absolute idiots to do this. I mean, where will you find water in desert which requires a tank to have fording capabilities, with snorkel, if required?

Hmmm.....may be, these idiots have canals on other side of the border in mind? Canal and evaropation ponds created parallel to the main north-south highway to act as barriers. In middle of desert, now who would've thunk it! Those weasely Pakis, I tell you.

About time army, nay armed forces, appoint colonels and jernails from BRF to take care of these matters.

[shiv]

and backup by loads and loads of Rudras and LCH needed - infact all our armed gunships should be deployed in the mountains. the plains formations have lot of other assets and chances of a major war with TSP very low.

In Aksai Chin - defending Chini aircraft - if any will be at the limit of their endurance . That area is so remote and so vast I would not be surprised at all if Indian patrols were roaming all over with no one to check them

[rohitvats]

and backup by loads and loads of Rudras and LCH needed - infact all our armed gunships should be deployed in the mountains. the plains formations have lot of other assets and chances of a major war with TSP very low.

Interestingly, first of the newly conceived Combat Aviation Brigade was raised under 14 Corps in Leh.

[Singha]

#like button

[shiv]

and backup by loads and loads of Rudras and LCH needed - infact all our armed gunships should be deployed in the mountains. the plains formations have lot of other assets and chances of a major war with TSP very low.

Interestingly, first of the newly conceived Combat Aviation Brigade was raised under 14 Corps in Leh.

Sudden "aha" moment when I read this - though slightly OT here.

There has been a public debate recently about the Army wanting a "theater command" where any and all armed forces assets can be applied for conflict in that theater. The navy and air force have been opposed to this because they say that their respurces are small and that lack of theater command has never stopped them from moving assets freely from one theater to another (say west to east) rather than having assets tied down to a single theater command

I agree that the air force and navy have a point. But it occurs to me that the army has a point too. Let me explain by simply quoting from an article that I had posted in the shivering thread written by Lt Gen Gautam Banerjee
http://www.vifindia.org/print/1828

No doubt, the whole system of induction and sustenance for PLA’s field forces in war would be ripe for interdiction by air power and special operations.

In 1962 Nehru thought using the air force would be an escalation - a costly mistake made by him. That lost the war

The army should never ever again be in a situation where they are getting hammered and some idiot politician or BRF style armchair general decides that air power should not be used. This is a strong argument for the army to have air assets of its own

[Pratyush]

This is a bad idea if it is actually being implemented.

Why? I think it is a great idea. Old weaponry lying unused is often positioned at odd places - like old L-70s used against Paki bunkers. A tank is a natural pillbox with better offensive weapons than any pillbox. Tanks are often used in static defences as well as Centurions were used in Asal Uttar 1965

All it will require from the TSP is an atgm to knock out these old tanks. That is why this is a bad idea. Imagine that the TSP sets a trap, provokes a response which results in tanks opening fire giving away it's position. The atgm team from TSPA returns fire with ATGM.

Dead Indian tank and low Indian moral. Better solution would be to issue end of service life atgm and their use against strong points. Cheap low foot print.

[AdityaM]

and backup by loads and loads of Rudras and LCH needed - infact all our armed gunships should be deployed in the mountains. the plains formations have lot of other assets and chances of a major war with TSP very low.

In Aksai Chin - defending Chini aircraft - if any will be at the limit of their endurance . That area is so remote and so vast I would not be surprised at all if Indian patrols were roaming all over with no one to check them

Would they still be at their endurance limits if they take off from within POK?

[shiv]

All it will require from the TSP is an atgm to knock out these old tanks. That is why this is a bad idea. Imagine that the TSP sets a trap, provokes a response which results in tanks opening fire giving away it's position. The atgm team from TSPA returns fire with ATGM.

Dead Indian tank and low Indian moral. Better solution would be to issue end of service life atgm and their use against strong points. Cheap low foot print.

Oh no the tank would never be parked exposed like that. It would be behind a natural or other constructed barrier leaving just enough exposed. A working tank would simply shoot and move behind cover which no static bunker could do. It would be absurd to leave a 1960s tank exposed. We are talking about a surplus tank being used as bunker cum self propelled arty

[Pratyush]

So in a way by having a static tank we have lost all advantages offered by the tank. That is mobile fire power.

Which can be attacked by long range arty if the pakistani army had any tactical acumen.

[shiv]

So in a way by having a static tank we have lost all advantages offered by the tank. That is mobile fire power.

Let us not assume that the men firing and facing fire in those areas do not have the common sense that you have about the dangers and advantages.

Obsolete tanks which would otherwise have been scrapped are being used at no extra cost. And firepower greater than what men in bunkers can usually deliver. However the numbers may be small. Just like obsolete L-70 air defence guns being manhandled into high mountain positions to bust Paki bunkers. Lt Gen Panag had a story about those

How we pushed Pak out of the Batalik Sector

. We made a bid for additional heavy weapons and soon managed the allotment of two L 70 anti-aircraft guns, two 75/24 MM mountain guns, six anti-tank recoilless guns and 12 extra machine guns. Most of these weapons were either obsolete or were not fit for their primary role (due to defects) and were allotted without crews. The self-reliant infantry battalions rose to the occasion. We got help from artillery and air defence units to train the jawans to handle the L 70 and 75/24 MM mountain guns.
<snip>
It was a bright sunny day after a week of bad weather and Pakistani troops were busy sunning themselves. On a code word, all hell broke loose. We engaged all posts, but the ones which were dominated by us received special attention. Surprise was total and the enemy troops were caught unawares in the open. In the critical first two minutes, substantial casualties were caused before the troops scurried for cover of the bunkers. We then focussed on the bunkers, which, compared to ours, were in a poor state. The heavier L 70 Air defence gun, which fires 330 rounds per minute, and 75/24 mountain gun wreaked havoc. The training and effort put in to haul them to the posts had paid dividends.

Our fury lasted two hours and in the ensuing lull, white flags came up on some posts for collecting casualties. We had destroyed 35 Bunkers and approximately 25 – 30 enemy were killed and wounded. Complete moral ascendency had been achieved and was maintained aggressively thereafter.

There is a popular saying that those who seek orders get orders; and those who seize the initiative, run away with the orders

[Pratyush]

Shiv it is one thing to use aa guns in mountain warfare. I have seen videos of zsu 23 in direct fire mode. The Germans in ww2 used 88 as AT gun as well. But that is not what we are discussing.

We are discussing the suitability of using a tank as a set piece in what are low level scirmishes on the LOC.

The major issue with this is that a static tank is giving up it most vital advantage that is mobile fire power. And would be observed by pakistani army while getting into position if it is pre placed. If the tank is getting into position before firing, then it is exposing it self to paki ATGM teams. And observed arty fire.

You may refer to authority of IA having smarts to use the tank properly and so do I and believe that the IA is smart enough not to do something like this.

[tsarkar]

^^ Obsolete tanks are "written off" the Equipment Table, so it is no longer considered a tank nor in the rolls of the armoured regiment.

Rather, it becomes a pre-fabricated bunker - the other option being scrapped for metal.

During positioning, it doesnt stick out like a sore thumb but uses the following well established military tactics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull-down

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_slope_defence

[manjgu]

rohitvats...these days if u go along the GT road..u see lot of tanks, IFV's practising on big grounds ..building canal like obstacles with big raised banks and practising crossing them...

[Singha]

Based on syria war observer status..static tanks used there all the time. The position on reverse slopes behind tall berms. Sonetimes they hide entirely behind berms...come out to fire a few rounds ..then hide again if atgm threat is high.

I have seen videos of taking darting out from cover to nail svbied at last minute

[Pratyush]

But the point is that in a situation like the one that exists on the LOC nearly every position and nearly every movement is observed. Especially when you are moving a tank in position.

Because a tank to the best of my knowledge cannot travel to it's position in a hull down position.

A tank is a direct fire weapon and it needs to have a line of sight in order to fire accurately.

Line of sight for me is line of sight for the enemy.

[Pratyush]

Based on syria war observer status..static tanks used there all the time. The position on reverse slopes behind tall berms. Sonetimes they hide entirely behind berms...come out to fire a few rounds ..then hide again if atgm threat is high.

I have seen videos of taking darting out from cover to nail svbied at last minute

Will this tactic work against a full strength TSPA unit with ATGMs. That is just waiting for the tank to dart out of its position to lob a few shells.


No one is looking at this point.

[nam]

There was a video of US forces in Korea using tank as an artillery!

They had built a sand dune and placed the tank on it at a angle. The tank was firing in the usual inclination, but due to the sand due it acted like a artillery!

[ParGha]

Aksai Chin is tank country. Bum-La area is tank country. Every kilogram counts as one tries to get higher and higher in altitude using air logistics and that is why light tanks have found themselves in high altitude battles more often than heavies. The T-72 is proven air-transportable into Ladakh and has been inducted.

True, every ounce counts in the mountains. T-72s are fine for spearheading advances up a river-valley (squadron strength) and as divisional mobile reserves (regimental strength). For lower-level actions they consume too much fuel, need specialized spares and perform a limited role.

At higher-levels, it is nearly impossible to control battle at corps/army level in the Himalayas; though if you did fight at that level, the only realistic assumption would be that you are linking up with the Russians at Lop Nur and Lhasa, and they are bringing the spares and fuel for D21+.

In 90% of the cases, a modern IFV with a 30 or 40mm canons (+ATGM or +AAMs) is more than enough for "armor" needs in the mountains. They are multi-roled: command and control vehicles, forward artillery/air observer posts, battle ambulance, night illumination, etc. So easier to build up a logistics tail, less fuel consumption, etc. BMP-2s today, and Tata FICVs or Kestrels in near future, IMHO is the way to go -- start by converting one more mechanized/armored infantry battalion per regiment.

[malushahi]

They are multi-roled: command and control vehicles, forward artillery/air observer posts, battle ambulance, night illumination, etc. So easier to build up a logistics tail, less fuel consumption, etc. BMP-2s today, and Tata FICVs or Kestrels in near future, IMHO is the way to go -- start by converting one more mechanized/armored infantry battalion per regiment.

+1

that may very well be the direction in which things are moving. my guess is there is an equivalent of about one "light brigade" in addition to the reported armoured brigades being raised in ladakh and sikkim. but, one also has to take into consideration the significant dug-ins that dot likely strike axes in these (and other) areas. i mean this is no rag-tag middle-east militia, so one is never sure if the "heavy" component is enough.

which brings me to the rather limited number of brf postings on current tata/mahindra/reliance efforts in the mechanized space. i for one would very much like to see more stuff from these manufacturers being posted.

[shiv]

<deleted> see below

[shiv]

Will this tactic work against a full strength TSPA unit with ATGMs. That is just waiting for the tank to dart out of its position to lob a few shells.


No one is looking at this point.

You are painting a specific mental picture where you think a tank will dart out shoot and scoot. You need to change that mental picture to one of mountainous regions where the tank is simply sitting in a ditch with a bund/wall of rock ahead of it - invisible in preparation for a deliberate act of laying down heavy fire using every weapon available, of which the tank is only one. And this tank use will not be a regular feature that will remain there for time immemorial waiting for Pakis to hit.

When the time comes for all guns to open up the tank just moves forward out of the ditch up an incline to a flat area just behind the bund/wall so the turret is visible and adds to a huge volume of fire being brought down on Pakis from every weapon available to destroy anything within sight. It is not as if the tank is alone and waiting for Pakis to come out with an ATGM. It is just in addition to a huge volume of fire to flatten everything in sight. In fact that is the situation in which a tank seems to have been used in the video we saw - and not "dart out, shoot and dart back". This is in fact what Lt Gen Panag has described and this is how heavy volums fo fire are brought to bear on Pakis. Not just one tank - but every goddam weapon available. Everyone is at risk of getting hit by Pakis but the idea of such heavy fire is not to allow a chance for the Pakis to retaliate. When the firing is done the tank will move back and be thrown wherever it was before it was positioned for the action.
This is what I mean





Of course one can argue and say that "Oh they will use howitzers from 25 km behind." or " they will being in aircraft" "They can use Chinese UCAVs" I am not going to argue with that. We can sit an imagine battles all we like but that is not going to make the Indian army dumb or smart based on our imagination

[shiv]

Here is an example of defensive tank positioning

[Pratyush]

Shiv all you are posting is for a scenario that takes advantage of the fluid battlefield that is not under enemy observation 24 *7 *365. Where your every action is under observation, 24 * 7 *365 such actions will only give your enemy a static and specific target.

This is the simple point that I am trying to make.

[shiv]

Shiv all you are posting is for a scenario that takes advantage of the fluid battlefield that is not under enemy observation 24 *7 *365. Where your every action is under observation, 24 * 7 *365 such actions will only give your enemy a static and specific target.

This is the simple point that I am trying to make.

You are assuming that everything will be observed. That is where I credit the IA with some sense. Those weapons can be positioned surreptitiously. That is obvious (to me at least).

Did you read the Gen Panag article? I quote the relevant bit.

Movement was only at night and was extremely slow. To maintain surprise, the movement was only at night. By first light, the weapons were camouflaged in situation and movement commenced again after last light

Read more at:
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/how- ... ik-sector/

[shiv]

And by the way there will be no tank battles on China front. Where is the tankable country?

Also fyi:
http://usiofindia.org/Article/?pub=Jour ... 60&ano=482

Chinese Attack – Stage 1 : October 1962

The Chinese attack on Sirijap complex consisting of three posts, Sirijap, Sirijap 1 and 2, commenced at around 0600 hours on 21 October 1962. The Chinese carried out heavy shelling of Sirijap – 1 for nearly 2½ hours. They then attacked this post with light tanks, against which the post had no weapons.
[..]
The IAF achieved a major feat when the AN-12 air lifted a troop of AMX-13 tanks of 20 Lancers to Chushul on 25 October.
[..]
It may be mentioned here that on the fall of Gurung Hill, the Chinese advance towards the airfield from Gurung Hill and Mukhpari was prevented entirely by the effectiveness of own tanks and artillery fire.

[Singha]

A 105mm shell is good for 50cm thick steel plate. It might be able to penetrate 2 meter thick concrete or 4 meter of brick and sand as a guess. Enough to penetrate those stone made posts

[ramana]

Thanks.

[Singha]

A atgm even if it hits will strike the best protected part of the tank....turret front. A lot of times it will hit the earth or rock berm too...seen that in syria. There are instances of syrian drivers seeing incoming tow missile..letting it come..then a quick judo move to swiftly drive off at last minute leaving no time for gunner to redirect missile

[shiv]

A 105mm shell is good for 50cm thick steel plate. It might be able to penetrate 2 meter thick concrete or 4 meter of brick and sand as a guess. Enough to penetrate those stone made posts

A comment by one of the senior retired IA people on Twitter though that those tank shells hitting Paki bunkers looked like HESH (High Explosive Squash head)

[Gyan]

So in a way by having a static tank we have lost all advantages offered by the tank. That is mobile fire power.

Let us not assume that the men firing and facing fire in those areas do not have the common sense that you have about the dangers and advantages.

Obsolete tanks which would otherwise have been scrapped are being used at no extra cost. And firepower greater than what men in bunkers can usually deliver. However the numbers may be small. Just like obsolete L-70 air defence guns being manhandled into high mountain positions to bust Paki bunkers. Lt Gen Panag had a story about those

How we pushed Pak out of the Batalik Sector

. We made a bid for additional heavy weapons and soon managed the allotment of two L 70 anti-aircraft guns, two 75/24 MM mountain guns, six anti-tank recoilless guns and 12 extra machine guns. Most of these weapons were either obsolete or were not fit for their primary role (due to defects) and were allotted without crews. The self-reliant infantry battalions rose to the occasion. We got help from artillery and air defence units to train the jawans to handle the L 70 and 75/24 MM mountain guns.
<snip>
It was a bright sunny day after a week of bad weather and Pakistani troops were busy sunning themselves. On a code word, all hell broke loose. We engaged all posts, but the ones which were dominated by us received special attention. Surprise was total and the enemy troops were caught unawares in the open. In the critical first two minutes, substantial casualties were caused before the troops scurried for cover of the bunkers. We then focussed on the bunkers, which, compared to ours, were in a poor state. The heavier L 70 Air defence gun, which fires 330 rounds per minute, and 75/24 mountain gun wreaked havoc. The training and effort put in to haul them to the posts had paid dividends.

Our fury lasted two hours and in the ensuing lull, white flags came up on some posts for collecting casualties. We had destroyed 35 Bunkers and approximately 25 – 30 enemy were killed and wounded. Complete moral ascendency had been achieved and was maintained aggressively thereafter.

There is a popular saying that those who seek orders get orders; and those who seize the initiative, run away with the orders

Note the importance of basic weapons which seem out of fashion like 106mm RCL, GPMGs, Mountain Howitzers as we hanker for gold plated imports.

[malushahi]

A 105mm shell is good for 50cm thick steel plate. It might be able to penetrate 2 meter thick concrete or 4 meter of brick and sand as a guess. Enough to penetrate those stone made posts

would love to learn more about this shell. care to post some links?

[Singha]

Carl gustav tandem heat vs concrete

https://youtu.be/q6j9wEF1sf8

[malushahi]

was that 50cm of steel?

[Singha]

Malushahi i meant any 105mm heat shell..nothing special...500mm rha

The best 120mm rounds and kornet are in 1000mm to 1200mm of rha....