Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread - August 9, 2014

[Kersi]

For those who know the story "A Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems" (viewtopic.php?t=334). A lot of person of this story, were present in the same room, each of them telling us the story. It seemed we are actually present in the same room.

The Golden Days of BR Meets

I have photos of that meet. The funniest part was the description of one Jag pilot (among those whom Kersi mentions) of the sedate way in which Late Baldev Singh had done the Jaguar flying display in the earlier Aero India show - "He took off, did a circle around whole of Karnataka and then returned". This was probably 2001
I made a video of that tale of two hydraulics systems story.
"Tale of two hydraulics systems"

Could have been Sqdn Ldr Kalyan Palit of the "Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems"

Shiv please e-mail me the pics on k e r s i k d o t i w a l l a at r e d i f f m a i l DOT c o m

I wonder what I looked 17 years ago !!! Some more hair

[Rakesh]

ArjunPandit, only oldies know that. Mithai was promised if a certain asset joined the Indian Navy. The promise was to equal the displacement tonnage of the asset. The event happened. We have all been waiting ever since for the mithai!

My goodness, you remember that detail! Thanks Sridhar...just when I thought everyone forgot that part. Thanks

[Manish_P]

I have photos of that meet. The funniest part was the description of one Jag pilot (among those whom Kersi mentions) of the sedate way in which Late Baldev Singh had done the Jaguar flying display in the earlier Aero India show - "He took off, did a circle around whole of Karnataka and then returned". This was probably 2001
I made a video of that tale of two hydraulics systems story.
"Tale of two hydraulics systems"

Could have been Sqdn Ldr Kalyan Palit of the "Tale of Two Hydraulic Systems"

Shiv please e-mail me the pics on k e r s i k d o t i w a l l a at r e d i f f m a i l DOT c o m

I wonder what I looked 17 years ago !!! Some more hair

Wow. Any chance us noobs can see some photos of the meets ? If it is not invading/intruding on the privacy of the individuals.

[ArjunPandit]

What's this mithai story??? I always thought it's related to some missile or nuclear thing.. There's was some thread with mithai in name too
Seems like there's more than meets the eye.. Seems like admiral Saar didn't treat others

Admiral Rakesh promised to distribute mithai equal to its weight when the first Akula joins Indian Navy. We are all STILL waiting for the mithai.

he seems be trying to get a LCA level 1000K weight reduction
******************
or may be an Arjun (not me the arjun tank) style weight reduction

[Pratyush]

^^^

[negi]

Lot of people made promises , people remember Admiral's because when the promise was made no one thought that it would materialize. Some who shall not be named even talked about running the streets of Blore without clothes

[Bala Vignesh]

Hmmm interesting reminiscence going on here!! In any case, the new guard joins the old, and will continue to rightfully demand what was promised by Admiral Saab!!

[Philip]

We too are upgrading our BMP-2s.Any similarities to these upgrades?
http://www.janes.com/article/74619/russ ... bmd-2-ifvs

Russia upgrades BMP-2 and BMD-2 IFVs

Nikolai Novichkov - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
04 October 2017

Russia’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed a 10-year contract with Tula-based Instrument Design Bureau (KBP), a subsidiary of Rostec’s High-Precision Weapons holding, for the delivery of 540 upgraded BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs) and BMD-2 airborne IFVs, according to Deputy Defence Minister Yuri Borisov.The BMP-2M IFV will have four ready-to-fire Kornet anti-tank guided missiles in two twin launchers on each side of the turret. (Nikolai Novichkov)
The BMP-2M IFV will have four ready-to-fire Kornet anti-tank guided missiles in two twin launchers on each side of the turret. (Nikolai Novichkov)

The contract for the modernisation of the IFVs is one of the first large state defence orders under the new State Armament Programme for 2018-2025 (GPV-2025).

The BMP-2 IFV will be fitted with the B05Ya01 Berezhok turret, fitted with four ready-to-launch 9M133 Kornet series of anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) in two twin launchers on each side of the turret as well as the standard 30 mm 2A42 cannon, an AG-30 automatic grenade launcher, and 7.62 mm PKT machine gun. The ATGM launchers are fitted with independent electromechanical vertical drives. The BPK-2-42 sight will be replaced by a combined gunner’s sighting system with independent line-of-sight stabilisation, day and thermal imagers, a laser rangefinder, and a missile guidance channel.The upgraded BMD-2M IFV will have a similar sensor suite to that of the BMP-2M and a launcher with two ready-to-fire Kornet ATGMs. (Nikolai Novichkov)
The upgraded BMD-2M IFV will have a similar sensor suite to that of the BMP-2M and a launcher with two ready-to-fire Kornet ATGMs. (Nikolai Novichkov)

The upgraded IFV, designated BMP-2M, will have a digital onboard computer coupled to the sensor suite, a thermal imaging automatic target tracker, and an independent vertical drive and an ammunition load of 300 grenades, and an independent commander’s panoramic sight with independent dual axis stabilisation, as well as a TV camera and a laser range finder. The BMP-2M will also be fitted with a digital weapon stabiliser. The additional mounted weapons and equipment will increase the weight of the vehicle by up to 500 kg, including anti-tank missiles and 30 mm grenades weighing nearly 260 kg.

Want to read more? For analysis on this article and access to all our insight content, please enquire about our subscription options　ihs.com/contact

[vasu raya]

Is TATA Kestrel the future replacement for BMPs? Namica's, Munthra's are all based on BMP as of now...

[Picklu]

Hmmm interesting reminiscence going on here!! In any case, the new guard joins the old, and will continue to rightfully demand what was promised by Admiral Saab!!

Blame it to the delay in procurement system of MoD.

When the promise was made, Admiral sir was single. Unfortunately, due to the usual delay that haunts the armed forces, said Admiral got enslaved er I mean married.

Now that a proper SHQ is in place, all old promises are null and void, mithai koi aur kha raha hai

[Karan M]

^^ LOL, Rakesh any comments? Do we forget all hopes of mithai?

[Rakesh]

The boat sank Saar. I was torpedoed on the way in by SHQ

[Rakesh]

FICV Tangle – Needs Early Resolution
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... esolution/

By Lt Gen Prakash Katoch (Retd), 04 October 2017

Tata's Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV)

[Pratyush]

That looks like the German weasal tanket.

[Manish_P]

^^ Pic is of the Rheinmetall Wiesel shown at Defexpo 2012

[Rakesh]

Aiyoo! Sorry Saars. I just copied the image from the picture as is. Lesson learnt!

[Aditya G]

Is TATA Kestrel the future replacement for BMPs? Namica's, Munthra's are all based on BMP as of now...

No. Tata Kestrel is not a BMP replacement. At best, it is a recce jeep or BRDM replacement. I am not sure if we have dedicated ATGM units but possibly it is one such use case

[ParGha]

No. Tata Kestrel is not a BMP replacement. At best, it is a recce jeep or BRDM replacement. I am not sure if we have dedicated ATGM units but possibly it is one such use case

The Brigade of the Guards provides ATGM detachments as needed. However this is too big just for an ATGM team. It is more fit for the existing mechanized (wheeled) battalions, the Presidential Bodyguard Cavalry, future such raisings, specialized rear-area NBC containment units.

[Pratyush]

Krestal has the potential to play the role of a BTR in the Indian army. As there is a scope for such a vehicle in large numbers beyond the 2600 BMP supplements.

The ia also needs to replace the skot 64 .

[Philip]

Yes even though it has ltd. terrain traction, a BTR has it's uses and would be cheaper than a tracked AV. Most major armies like Russia have both.We should go ahead with the Kestrel for a start. A journey of a thousand +indigenous AV begins with the first order!

[Indranil]

Is TATA Kestrel the future replacement for BMPs? Namica's, Munthra's are all based on BMP as of now...

No. Tata Kestrel is not a BMP replacement. At best, it is a recce jeep or BRDM replacement. I am not sure if we have dedicated ATGM units but possibly it is one such use case

The Kestrel is not the replacement for the BMP. But it will eat into some of the latters orders. Wheels are better than tracks in mountain regions and much much more service-able too.

[ramana]

Philip and Singha read this

http://www.historynet.com/profiles-cold ... -tanks.htm

[Philip]

Ramana,an excellent read.The word "cost-effective" being the reason why Germany lost the tank war,stands out. Their "bespoke" sty;e of tank production cost them the war.The Soviet "expendable" tanks/parts philosophy after studying the lifespan of tanks on the battlefield dramatically brought down both costs and prod. time.The US simply threw as much money as it could at the problem,huge orders bringing down costs,etc.

This is a fundamental that the 3 services should embrace as their first rule when seeking a weapon system its "cost-effectiveness". Using the same platforms for various purposes continued during the Cold War too.For ex.,the same dunking sonar of the KA-28 was on the Pauk ASW corvettes. Same hull for Pauks and tarantula missile corvettes.The IN and CG would do well to employ such a philosophy as we have so many naval/CG vessels of almost the same dpl.,but with different hulls,etc.The IAF in its search for extra aircraft should study this article carefully,as well s our project heads of the LCA!

[KBDagha]

CVRDE AARV

https://twitter.com/cmdbeml/status/919213606947786753

[srai]

CVRDE AARV

https://twitter.com/cmdbeml/status/919213606947786753

Arjun Armored Repair & Recovery Vehicle (ARRV)


Anyone have good photos from the handover ceremony?

[Rupak]

Philip and Singha read this

http://www.historynet.com/profiles-cold ... -tanks.htm

Ramana,
Thanks for sharing. The German philosophy was very evident in the design of the HF-24, which I've heard from more than one source entailed a very complex manufacturing process when compared to the Gnat and MiG-21.

Tsarkar maybe able to shed more light, but I've also heard from people at GRSE and MDL that the Indian Navy's changing design requirements adds to time taken by yards and deliver and also leads to large cost overruns. I've never understood why the Navy can't standardize on a single OPV or XFAC design.

[Rakesh]

Wow, Rupak...where have you been? Long time Saar!

After visiting Arjun unit in Sept, Defence Minister Sitharaman briefed today by developer lab.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/919146879513911296

Defence Minister Sitharaman scoping out an Arjun Mk.II test vehicle yesterday at CVRDE, Avadi.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/919436496146436096

Defence Minister Sitharaman with the Muntra-S in-development unmanned ground vehicle.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/919437112335917056

[nam]

In one of the DRDO poster on T72 CIA, they mentioned the armor as Kanchan.

I don't know if they are referring to the recent upgrade involving use of ERA MK2. However it is interesting.

Use of Kanchan means our T72 don't have the monkey model steel armor anymore. They have composite armor.

With ERA MK2 , they are now almost equivalent to T90 is protection level.

Hope some improvements have been made to internals as well.

[ramana]

US Army showcases new Abrams variant:

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2017/1 ... 507650688/

[brar_w]

Interestingly, it would be the V2s that would be getting the APS ahead of the V3s.

[Austin]

India’s not-quite-ready Future Ready Combat Vehicle

[abhik]

^^^
Wow it been 24 months since the FRCV RFI was sent out! I don't think even much chai biskoot has happened in the last 2 years.

[Philip]

A light tank would complicate the FMBT few.I've posted before the UVZ Sprut, with a 125mm main gun, larger than the Chin LT in Tibet,but has poor protection.Tin can class.ERA panels and adding our reqs. will improve protection, etc. and may meet our needs.

No point in the T-90S.We would need something futuristic which would last for 20 years.Instead build around 300+ Arjun-2s as there is a lot of terrain where it will maul the enemy and tweak the T-14 concept which is futuristic.If our Kanchan armour is found superior use it. 2000 odd T-72s which are 3-man crewed tanks would be best replaced with another 3 man crewed beast.Imagine the cost of the extra manpower down the line. This FMBT could have ICV variants as in the Armata familia.

[Sid]

US Army showcases new Abrams variant:

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2017/1 ... 507650688/

I wonder when tanks will move away from “battleships” to “destroyer” concept. That big lumbering barrel on top is what drives most of the parameters on any MBT.

MBTs weight, armor, engagement range, crew size, mobility etc etc will remain the same until something is done with its turret. MBTs should not only survive an urbane environment, but air support as well because they will be the first casualty of any air raid in modern times.

[KBDagha]

DRDO Tech Focus on Test Facilities for Armoured Fighting Vehicles:

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfo ... 17_WEB.pdf

[uddu]

From DFI

[tsarkar]

Singha sir pls read up on Indian army infantry history and tactics and visualise use of rockets and missiles in different terrain and circumstances. Infantry and armour joint ops are very crucial reading. You will see our infantry often protects armour flanks and in fact that is essential in an armoured thrust in all armies. ATGMs are also used for destroying defendes and makes inf even more potent.

Infantry & Armour joint ops https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRo2b1gUMAIDM58.jpg

Any tank, fighter or ship or cavalry or elephants in ancient & medieval era requires freedom of maneuver. Once the freedom of maneuver is lost, they are vulnerable.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Singha sir pls read up on Indian army infantry history and tactics and visualise use of rockets and missiles in different terrain and circumstances. Infantry and armour joint ops are very crucial reading. You will see our infantry often protects armour flanks and in fact that is essential in an armoured thrust in all armies. ATGMs are also used for destroying defendes and makes inf even more potent.

Infantry & Armour joint ops https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRo2b1gUMAIDM58.jpg

Any tank, fighter or ship or cavalry or elephants in ancient & medieval era requires freedom of maneuver. Once the freedom of maneuver is lost, they are vulnerable.

A dose of reality to sand model concepts from two stalwarts - Gens Zoru Bakshi and Inder Gill.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/improvea ... ldier/amp/

[Karan M]

^^ Amazing article. Do you have any more such links, please share.
Whoever the author is, he has a gift for writing and one can literally imagine the event as it unfolded.

[Akshay Kapoor]

^^ Amazing article. Do you have any more such links, please share.
Whoever the author is, he has a gift for writing and one can literally imagine the event as it unfolded.

Here you go


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/improvea ... reats/amp/