India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 05 Nov 2014 19:49

In an interview to OneIndia, Dr K Tamilmani, Director-General (Aero), DRDO, said that the PM's wish to hand over the mandate of running some labs to youngsters has become a mandate now. "The PM's call to promote young talent has been well received by the youngsters within DRDO. We have been doing this exercise in the past as well and it will get a new focus now. It has to be a well-thought out plan keeping in mind factors such as project execution, financial management, administrative abilities and most-importantly leadership qualities," Dr Tamilmani said.
* IIT graduate heads Rs 22-crore futuristic project: DRDO
* Modi’s idea is great, execution tough: Pushpindar Singh
* Creation of new labs the only solution: DRDO Director
* Ready to take risk, let young guns take charge: PM Modi

Typical babu response from DRDO director

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Nov 2014 20:43

The reasons for why a top DRDO scientist said that has been given in the article and they are valid. It would be plainly foolish to put up a junior in the top post of a lab and expect his/her seniors to not feel wronged by it. Also a lab being run by a youngster doesn't == successful lab, that depends on the capability of the individual to push through projects by taking the role of a leader. Doing a Kejriwal will backfire pretty badly here as well.

srin · Post by **srin** » 05 Nov 2014 20:48

@Sagar-G
In GoI/PSU parlance, youngsters will be 40 years old atleast

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 05 Nov 2014 20:54

Sagar G wrote:The reasons for why a top DRDO scientist said that has been given in the article and they are valid. It would be plainly foolish to put up a junior in the top post of a lab and expect his/her seniors to not feel wronged by it. Also a lab being run by a youngster doesn't == successful lab, that depends on the capability of the individual to push through projects by taking the role of a leader. Doing a Kejriwal will backfire pretty badly here as well.

I believe the youngsters (people from mid 30s to mid 50s) won't be put in top positions just because they are youngsters. What kind of lahori logic are you using to put a spin in this story?

I think the main reason why many govt. depts are run with a 1950s era thinking is because most of them are "led" by 80 year old half-dead officers and scientists. Their thinking is so ancient and so irrelevant to modern times that even their best efforts don't create any major difference to the department they are running.

Youngsters know better than these senior (read ancient) eminent scientists. The biggest favor these people can do is retire gracefully and guide the youngsters, pass on the vast amount of experience that they have gained through their efforts, the things they have seen and the things that they know. This is the biggest gift that these scientists can give to their respective departments.

As head of departments they are practically useless because they don't think nearly on the same wavelength as private sector does in terms of R&D, in terms of marketing or in terms of production of new techniques and technology.
Youngsters are much more aware of the outside world, are more up-to-date with current situation in other sectors and hence are better suited for running the departments.

No scientist, no matter how genius they are, should work beyond 75 as a head or director. They just slow the process of development and change that the defense industry needs so desperately at the moment.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 05 Nov 2014 20:55

srai wrote:If the new director is from within same organizational ranks, continuity can be more easily maintained.

Continuity should be inbuilt in any organization and there should be no need for any kind of transitional period. What happens if a bus runs over the top guy? It is to break this hierarchy cycle in the PSUs that have run on seniority-raj, sycophancy and political grace for so long that this admittedly harsh medicine is being administered. We can't afford this any longer and Modi knows it. I doubt if there's anyone in India who knows more about top-to-street-level organization than he does. Only results count and nobody can argue with his record. Yes, we will lose some good people but that's a price we have to pay in order to kill the far more dangerous cancer.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Nov 2014 20:56

srin wrote:@Sagar-G
In GoI/PSU parlance, youngsters will be 40 years old atleast

"Honestly, the idea might sound great, but there will be a lot of practical difficulties. It's not an easy task to give the lab charge to a Scientist D or E and then ask someone senior at Scientist H to report to a lower rank. It will create unrest among the system. Even if it has to be done, then it has to be executed without creating any heartburn," the official said.

At 40 most get to become Sc.E and only a few outstanding one's go over this designation by the age of 40.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Nov 2014 20:59

narendranaik wrote:I believe the youngsters (people from mid 30s to mid 50s) won't be put in top positions just because they are youngsters. What kind of lahori logic are you using to put a spin in this story?

I think the main reason why many govt. depts are run with a 1950s era thinking is because most of them are "led" by 80 year old half-dead officers and scientists. Their thinking is so ancient and so irrelevant to modern times that even their best efforts don't create any major difference to the department they are running.

Youngsters know better than these senior (read ancient) eminent scientists. The biggest favor these people can do is retire gracefully and guide the youngsters, pass on the vast amount of experience that they have gained through their efforts, the things they have seen and the things that they know. This is the biggest gift that these scientists can give to their respective departments.

As head of departments they are practically useless because they don't think nearly on the same wavelength as private sector does in terms of R&D, in terms of marketing or in terms of production of new techniques and technology.
Youngsters are much more aware of the outside world, are more up-to-date with current situation in other sectors and hence are better suited for running the departments.

No scientist, no matter how genius they are, should work beyond 75 as a head or director. They just slow the process of development and change that the defense industry needs so desperately at the moment.

Go and first educate yourself instead of trying to be a smartass. "75 director", "80 year old" yeah you got your stats right

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 05 Nov 2014 21:03

Sagar G wrote: Go and first educate yourself instead of trying to be a smartass. "75 director", "80 year old" yeah you got your stats right

Bravo!! what a nice argument you totally convinced me Sagar bhaya. How old was Manmohan singh again? Why do you write about things if you have no interest in actual debates?

Most senior scientists are in their late 60s- early 80s. Such people can't modernize a department no matter how eminent they are. They have knowledge and experience and therefore their first job should be to educate others who are younger than them and let the youngsters take the lead.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 05 Nov 2014 21:11

narendranaik wrote:Bravo!! what a nice argument you totally convinced me Sagar bhaya. How old was Manmohan singh again? Why do you write about things if you have no interest in actual debates?

Manmohan Singh was a scientist wow brilliant analytical and debating skill I must admit !!!!! I write only about things which I have a bit of knowledge about so please get down from your high horses about trying to put up a debate with your half baked knowledge set.

narendranaik wrote:Most senior scientists are in their late 60s- early 80s. Such people can't modernize a department no matter how eminent they are. They have knowledge and experience and therefore their first job should be to educate others who are younger than them and let the youngsters take the lead.

More comedy ensues. A little exercise for you, go to any DRDO lab site and find me a director who is of the age bracket as you suggest.

Given your show of limited knowledge and over the top boasting about "debating" I would like to point out that the age of retirement is 60 after which scientists can only be given extension of two years and that too only twice so 64 is the cutout and rarely it has been crossed.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Nov 2014 08:18

Tone it down Sagar, before mods unleash their ban hammers.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Nov 2014 09:10

Just out of curiosity...are there any serving DRDO heads or directors over 70 years of age, let alone 75?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Nov 2014 09:14

JE Menon wrote:Just out of curiosity...are there any serving DRDO heads or directors over 70 years of age, let alone 75?

Physical age, no.

Mental age, many of them.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 06 Nov 2014 18:51

JE Menon wrote:Just out of curiosity...are there any serving DRDO heads or directors over 70 years of age, let alone 75?

Where the hell are people getting ideas about individuals in their 70's and above being employed by central goberment ??? 60 yrs. is the retirement age of central goberment employees period after that very few individuals are given extension of tenure and that too max upto 64 yrs. Their is no one over that age working for DRDO on it's payroll.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 07 Nov 2014 16:49

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 41m 41 minutes ago

The Indian Air force is the final frontier for indigenization really. And the neglect of aerospace in one of worst things the UPA did.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 43m 43 minutes ago

One thing I can say though, the days of the Indian Army importing any significant quantum of equipment is almost over.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 54m 54 minutes ago

See the Army has to now look at the various sectors along the LAC which are tank country, and there are some.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 49m 49 minutes ago

Arjun MK-2 MBT is the right choice for those areas since the Chinese will field T-99 variants.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 50m 50 minutes ago

In the future a 1800 HP engine developed in collaboration with Ukraine may also be used in say Arjun MK-3.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 1h 1 hour ago

The 'strategic mobility' argument is weak. And somebody should ask the IA as to what they were doing all these years.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 1h 1 hour ago

Besides a whole range of bridging equipment is now available that is MLC 70-80 class that is available for domestic production.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Nov 2014 17:21

Thanks!

The ~~new~~ era of social media has ultimately arrived on BR.

pankajs wrote:
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 43m 43 minutes ago

One thing I can say though, the days of the Indian Army importing any significant quantum of equipment is almost over.

Need to wait till Putin leaves. Heard that in some quarters there is talk of purchasing the latest Russian tank T-95 or the Armata (in looks it is cute - like the PAK-FA). So, let us see what this GoI decides, how do they decline "significant" imports. Will not be easy.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 49m 49 minutes ago

Arjun MK-2 MBT is the right choice for those areas since the Chinese will field T-99 variants.

Interesting. Considering that there was talk of a light tank to face China (in the mountains I guess it is still valid).

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 50m 50 minutes ago

In the future a 1800 HP engine developed in collaboration with Ukraine may also be used in say Arjun MK-3.

Hmmmm....

I was under the impression that there was a "national" effort within India. Or was that for a 1500 HP engine and that this is a totally different effort?

Nonetheless, it is good that they are thinking big.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Nov 2014 22:20

^^
SJ says:

- 1500 HP domestic engine's devpt is almost done. It is a gas turbine. This 1800 HP is diesel.
- the Ukrainian 6TD-5 diesel is not really fully developed. A 1800 HP desi gas turbine is also being proposed

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Nov 2014 22:28

gas turbine?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 07 Nov 2014 23:04

For higher hp, gas turbines is the way forward as diesel engines become bulky for mobile applications - my two cents. Air filtration becomes key as turbines are more sensitive - like the US learnt in Gulf wars.

member_22906 · Post by **member_22906** » 08 Nov 2014 01:00

Wouldn't the GT be a gas guzzler?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Nov 2014 03:33

nileshjr wrote:^^
SJ says:

- 1500 HP domestic engine's devpt is almost done. It is a gas turbine. This 1800 HP is diesel.
- the Ukrainian 6TD-5 diesel is not really fully developed. A 1800 HP desi gas turbine is also being proposed

SJ is becoming a huge leak!!!

So, let me get this straight. SJ says that these are the engines that India is after:

1500 HP, Made in India, Gas Turbine, Nearly complete (wonder what that means, tested and all or the prototype is nearly complete. Just curious)
1800 HP, Collab with Ukraine, Diesel Engine, Looks like they ran out of funds and India may/is funding it?????
1800 HP, Proposed to be Made in India, Gas Turbine.

???

When it rains it pours?

And then SJ has a tease for us?

"say Arjun MK-3"

Wouldn't the GT be a gas guzzler?

Shhhhhh.

Let them make it first.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Nov 2014 04:36

nik wrote:For higher hp, gas turbines is the way forward as diesel engines become bulky for mobile applications - my two cents. Air filtration becomes key as turbines are more sensitive - like the US learnt in Gulf wars.

Given oil prices nowadays (compared to when most Western MBTs were conceived), gas turbines are far too expensive. They're even looking to re-engine the Abrams with a diesel.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 08 Nov 2014 05:26

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 6h 6 hours ago
Corrigendum #1: Domestic 1500 HP engine under development is an IC engine not a GT. Please ignore GT comment. Too much twitter.

1500 HP engine is IC, not GT.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 08 Nov 2014 10:22

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 3h 3 hours ago

1500 HP Bharat power pack DE being readied under national mission mode project. Engine and transmission. CVRDE playing a nodal role.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 3h 3 hours ago

Collaboration with Ukraine on 1800 HP DE (6TD-5) possible for hypothetical Mk 3 ( my designation ) or upgrades possible.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 3h 3 hours ago

Finally a 1800 HP GT has been 'proposed' only. Sorry for the confusing tweets yesterday folks, was rather tired last evening.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 08 Nov 2014 14:54

SJ is leaking pleasant things.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 12 Nov 2014 10:45

Can Parrikar fix India’s defence production problem? - Saurav Jha in Swarajyamag

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 08:05

IIT edukasion helps.

Parrikar to focus on defence infrastructure

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Wednesday said he would prioritise logistics, infrastructure and indigenous procurement.

nash · Post by **nash** » 13 Nov 2014 20:30

change of winds

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/russ ... 00657.html

The Russian side, sources said is keen to manufacture the chopper in India by transferring technology and wants to use India as a base to meet future export orders.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Nov 2014 20:42

nash wrote:change of winds

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/russ ... 00657.html

The Russian side, sources said is keen to manufacture the chopper in India by transferring technology and wants to use India as a base to meet future export orders.

And, on the other hand, if we were to believe the news items, Russia has trouble parting with the PAK-FA techs.

However, which item can India be really interested in? Nano? Perhaps. The rest - IMHO - seem to be bland. Even nano, are alternatives possible?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Nov 2014 04:40

LASTEC is looking for production partner for three of its products

Optical target locator-
A system that can identify any "optics" being pointed towards the area where it is installed using a laser to scan the environment. Essentially, it's a counter sniper tool. Small enough to be held in hand or mounted on a tripod.

Laser Ordnance Disposal System (LORDS)-
A laser based IED disposal system mounted on a Tata LSV. Can dispose IEDs from 300 meters.

Laser Distractor-
A laser based system for crowd control, small enough to be mounted on a tripod or a car, can go places where Water cannons can't. The system temporarily dazzles the crowd like a flash bang grenade. It was displayed mounted on a Mahindra Marksman at defexpo.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 14 Nov 2014 18:33

DRDO plans 10 centres to drive high-end technologies

Has also earmarked Rs 500 crore a year to enhance defence R&D content in Indian universities

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the process of setting up at least 10 'centres of technology' in the country over the next five years, primarily aimed at developing high-end technologies, according to Avinash Chander, scientific advisor to ministry of defence, secretary to the department of defence research and development (R&D), and director-general, DRDO.

"The first set of such centres will be coming up at IIT-Mumbai and IIT-Chennai this year, where PhDs and MTechs will work on technologies including high-end robotics, advanced propulsion aeronautics and directed energy weapons. We are expecting an intake of 500 PhDs and MTechs for each centre," Chander said.

Speaking to mediapersons on the sidelines of Defence and Aerosupply India, a three-day international conference and exhibition on defence and aerospace technologies that concluded in Hyderabad on Friday, he said DRDO had earmarked Rs 500 crore a year to enhance defence R&D content in Indian universities. "Today, many universities are maths-oriented. Our idea is to make them research-oriented," he said.

According to Chander, creating a dedicated fund, either through venture capital or micro financing, to extend cash support to startups in the defence and aerospace sector is the need of the hour.

"I feel that a fund of this kind could be started with an initial corpus of Rs 200 crore and extend it on a recoverable basis to young industrialists who are willing to enter the sector," he said, adding that DRDO had also been talking at the central level to create a material bank where they could stock critical material.

DRDO is looking at setting up more establishments in and around Hyderabad with an investment of around Rs 1,500 crore. The ministry of defence (MOD) undertaking has already acquired 100 acre at Nagarjuna Sagar for setting up a systems and component testing facility, while works on hypersonic and transonic wind tunnel facilities at Shamirpet and a radar cross-section measurement facility at Dundigal, both on the outskirts of Hyderabad, are under way.

"The tunnels facility, the second in the country with the first being in Bangalore, should be operational in three years from now, while the radar cross-section unit will be up and running within a year," Chander said.

On the status of the proposed missile test launch centre at Nagayalanka in Krishna district of Andhra Pradesh, he said DRDO was awaiting land clearances for 250 acre and approvals from environmental agencies for the Rs 1,500-crore missile test range project.

5000 peechaddis and Mtechs will work on defence related technologies !!!! Wishes of jingoes are being granted slowly.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 14 Nov 2014 18:40

NRao wrote:IIT edukasion helps.

Parrikar to focus on defence infrastructure

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Wednesday said he would prioritise logistics, infrastructure and indigenous procurement.

IIT edukeshun has got nothing to do with that instead his work for his hydraulic venture has got to do everything with his focus.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1749980

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 14 Nov 2014 19:14

Someone was asking why RCI was named Imarat - it is because it is situated in Imarat Kancha village Not some Arabian name !!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Nov 2014 22:15

Sagar G wrote:DRDO plans 10 centres to drive high-end technologies

Has also earmarked Rs 500 crore a year to enhance defence R&D content in Indian universities

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is in the process of setting up at least 10 'centres of technology' in the country over the next five years, primarily aimed at developing high-end technologies, according to Avinash Chander, scientific advisor to ministry of defence, secretary to the department of defence research and development (R&D), and director-general, DRDO.

"The first set of such centres will be coming up at IIT-Mumbai and IIT-Chennai this year, where PhDs and MTechs will work on technologies including high-end robotics, advanced propulsion aeronautics and directed energy weapons. We are expecting an intake of 500 PhDs and MTechs for each centre," Chander said.

Speaking to mediapersons on the sidelines of Defence and Aerosupply India, a three-day international conference and exhibition on defence and aerospace technologies that concluded in Hyderabad on Friday, he said DRDO had earmarked Rs 500 crore a year to enhance defence R&D content in Indian universities. "Today, many universities are maths-oriented. Our idea is to make them research-oriented," he said.

According to Chander, creating a dedicated fund, either through venture capital or micro financing, to extend cash support to startups in the defence and aerospace sector is the need of the hour.

"I feel that a fund of this kind could be started with an initial corpus of Rs 200 crore and extend it on a recoverable basis to young industrialists who are willing to enter the sector," he said, adding that DRDO had also been talking at the central level to create a material bank where they could stock critical material.

DRDO is looking at setting up more establishments in and around Hyderabad with an investment of around Rs 1,500 crore. The ministry of defence (MOD) undertaking has already acquired 100 acre at Nagarjuna Sagar for setting up a systems and component testing facility, while works on hypersonic and transonic wind tunnel facilities at Shamirpet and a radar cross-section measurement facility at Dundigal, both on the outskirts of Hyderabad, are under way.

"The tunnels facility, the second in the country with the first being in Bangalore, should be operational in three years from now, while the radar cross-section unit will be up and running within a year," Chander said.

On the status of the proposed missile test launch centre at Nagayalanka in Krishna district of Andhra Pradesh, he said DRDO was awaiting land clearances for 250 acre and approvals from environmental agencies for the Rs 1,500-crore missile test range project.
5000 peechaddis and Mtechs will work on defence related technologies !!!! Wishes of jingoes are being granted slowly.

Some 300 crore (for 5 yrs i think) fund is on table for this IITB+IITM centre. DRDO wants it to be India's JPL. This is a good move.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Nov 2014 22:32

About time.

DRDO floats idea to set up fund to support defence start-ups

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Nov 2014 22:34

eye eye chai is impart-ant and shud impart.

nash · Post by **nash** » 21 Nov 2014 10:00

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... rement-goa

a thoughtful interview by MP, saint didn't had even half of it.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 23 Nov 2014 09:54

how things have changed in a year and definitely seems for the good

Oct 2 - 2013
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/k ... 190724.ece

Next year, the GTRE plans to show the engine’s performance first on an Il-76 plane and then as the second engine fitted on a twin-engined fighter like MiG-29. It would be tuned to certification standards.

“When we do that, we will have the first indigenous [aero]engine with proven and certified performance for exploitation” — meaning it would be rendered suitable for fitting on future Indian-made military or passenger aircraft — Dr. Ramanarayanan told The Hindu later.

Dr. Tamilmani said a ready engine would precede an indigenous aircraft programme, a model followed worldwide.

Nov 2014
http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/onein ... 65505.html

"Yes. These are part of the bold stand being taken by DRDO. Whereever we have found bottlenecks for long time, with no realistic solutions, it's better to move on. It is an honest stand we are taking," Tamilmani said.

When asked whether the decision was a fall out of the recent remarks made by Prime Minister Narendra Modi asking DRDO to come out of the delay trap, the senior official refused to make a direct comment. "If you are fit to run only for 50 km, why attempt 100 km? DRDO has realized its mistakes of the past and we have no hesitation in taking some bold steps," he said.

Though nothing to be proud about that we will continue to import jet engines but still such kind of objective assessment was required for quite sometime. Ultimately going via the low hanging fruits towards the top of tech pyramid is what will help to build an ecosystem which will yield quick and tangible results.
- INSAS as base and Tavor etc as a reference point work to make a better rifle
- Tejas as a platform and Rafale etc as a reference work to make a better EW / sensor fusion package
- Dhanush as base work towards making a better gun.
- low rated Kaveri along with stealth tech incorporated in UCAV to get hand's on and confidence on such tech.

Make all such and more reliable and quality products and then gradually move up the chain with AMCA etc with the available building blocks.

Just a thought

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Nov 2014 08:59

Zero tolerance to error in defence: Parrikar

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Nov 2014 19:23

DRDO to make unmanned combat systems

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 25 Nov 2014 02:48

NRao wrote:DRDO to make unmanned combat systems

We have developed a vaccine for detection of HINI flu virus ...