India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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chaanakya
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby chaanakya » 01 Jun 2015 11:45

Karan M wrote:
Chanakya, my point was the gents you referenced earlier as being part of the clique - we have no evidence of them being part of UPA cronyism. GTRE is a unique case in that its in such a niche field by even WW standards, that we can't afford to lose anyone. Nor has GOI done anything to build up parallel streams of development and widen the supply. So using it as a general case would be folly.
If NaMO really wants to change things, he should fund and focus on technology accordingly. Widen the manpower pool, raise incentives, break the vested media cabal that targets local programs whilst trying to shill for imports.
Right now without that, make in India will remain a myth. Arjun and LCA are where the real test cases are. Lets see what he does. Lets hope for the best, he does have four years and the first year has had a lot of other items dog his heels.


While I agree with your points I would say they need not be consciously part of UPA cronyism. Just gaming the system for their advantage would be enough. In fact the shortage of talented manpower that you alluded to does not exist in projects where teams are in place and defined hierarchies are in place. Second in commands in zone of consideration are always available for promotion and keep waiting . if higher ups get extension then they have no choice but to play the game to get extension and hope for leadership role/promotion. Congis managed to degrade the system to such an extent that scientists had no choice left but to be part of it to get recognition and promotion to head of the institutions. Recent promotions are just indicators that there is no dearth of talent in the available pool.

To break this system one needs to adhere to "no Extension Policy", that NaMo has adopted. Of course one can speed up the intake, incentivize, offer better perks and recognition, accelerated promotion schemes for high achievers, lateral entry to these programs to bring specialised brains etc to broaden the pool of available talents.

While what you say about freeze on recruitment is true for Entry grade scientists. In the long run it would have deleterious effect.


I also feel that they should go for more of campus recruitments across all institutions ( I think DRDO recently conducted some campus tests for the purpose) and take apprentice Engineers at higher entry payouts for a short period of two to five years. Those who pass muster ( some administered tests, performance review, peer review etc) can be asked to join regular work force while others can be asked to join various companies licensed under make in India programme . Similarly we should take ITIs and Polytechnic students for other categories of skilled work force via campus selections.
Last edited by chaanakya on 01 Jun 2015 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Pratyush » 01 Jun 2015 12:04

brar_w wrote:Most of the technologies required to get to the EDE and EPE state have been developed long ago through the IHPTET effort. GE has done some testing and demonstration of the technology incorporated into the F414 family. What they need to do is fully finish the testing and develop a full fledged engine incorporating the technology that they have identified for these enhancements. Basically they need an order stream, or a customer to foot the bill of finishing the testing to get the enhancements certified.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-211144/



Oh, I was under the impression, that it will be another PJ10 / Brahmos type effort. Where India has the IPR and is free to make the needed modifications to the end product as per our needs.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Singha » 01 Jun 2015 12:27

here is the article about engine proposal with GE
http://idrw.org/carter-to-face-indian-d ... echnology/
SOURCE: AJAY SHUKLA / Business-standard.com

The US-India defence relationship needs an engine to drive it, say leaders on both sides. But there are different perceptions on what that engine might be.

Americans believe the engine should be the “Defence Trade and Technology Initiative” (DTTI), a high-level committee of officials from both sides that moots projects for working together, and removes bureaucratic roadblocks. In January, when President Barack Obama met Prime Minister Narendra Modi in New Delhi, they “emphasised the ongoing importance of the (DTTI) in developing new areas of technology cooperation”, according to a joint statement issued at that time.

Indian officials are focused on another engine — the General Electric Aviation (GE) F-414 jet engine that will power a more powerful version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the Tejas Mark II. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) wants GE to help it up-rate the F-414 engine to power India’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), which is still on the drawing board.

So central is engine technology to India’s high-technology expectations from the US, that it was specifically cited after the Obama-Modi talks. The joint statement said that, on January 22, the DTTI agreed to “form a working group to explore aircraft carrier technology sharing and design, and explore possible cooperation on development of jet engine technology.”

Yet, the US technology control regime, which guards cutting-edge knowhow tightly, continues to treat jet engine technologies as sensitive and commercially valuable. Washington readily sold India the GE-404IN engine that powers the Tejas Mark I with 83 KiloNewtons (KN) of thrust. It also permitted the more advanced F-414 – which will provide the Tejas Mark II with 90 KN of thrust – to be built near Pune after GE won a contract for 99 engines in September 2010.

But India wants cutting-edge. Defence ministry sources say they want GE to partner the DRDO in upgrading the F-414 to deliver 110 KN of peak power to the AMCA, allowing its twin-engines to deliver 220 KN of peak power to the fighter.

GE is sees enormous commercial benefits in this co-development, which would capture the engine market for 200 Tejas and 200 AMCA. Since a fighter engine’s life is about 1,500 hours and the aircraft itself lasts 5,000-6,000 hours, each fighter consumes 3.5 engines during its service life. GE is looking at supplying 700 engines for the Tejas and 1,400 for the AMCA over their service lives.

Yet, developing an advanced F-414 engine in India would require GE to part with valuable technologies, particularly in the high-melting-point alloys that make the combustion chamber. Engine designers say an output of 90 KN requires the combustion chamber to be built of materials that withstand temperatures of 1,800 degrees Kelvin. Achieving engine output of 110 KN would generate 2,000 degrees Kelvin in the combustion chamber. Washington remains reluctant to share these technologies, even after committing to jointly exploring cooperation.

“The DTTI should facilitate US permissions, especially with a working group in place for engine technology. But we are getting signals this may not happen,” says a top DRDO scientist.


Indian officials see advantage in dealing with GE along, through government-to-government channels, a more flexible and faster mechanism. There is also benefit in having GE as a single partner for Tejas Mark I, Mark II and AMCA engines, which GE keenly wants too. Even so, Indian officials say that US government foot-dragging might leave no choice but an international tender that brings in European companies like Snecma and Eurojet.

At stake here is the Indian military and civil aero engine market, which internal DRDO estimations reckon to be worth Rs 3,50,000 crore over coming decades.

“How the Americans react on Wednesday will tell us how serious they are about technology partnership with India,” says a top defence ministry bureaucrat.

“So far they have treated the DTTI as a channel to help American companies to bypass competitive procurement and multi-vendor tenders. But we will allow that only when there are clear technology benefits for India,” he added.

Before his meetings in New Delhi on Wednesday, US Defense Secretary Ashton Carter will be stopping at Visakhapatnam on Tuesday, on his way in from Singapore, where he will visit the navy’s Eastern Naval Command. With the second “joint working group” exploring US cooperation in building India’s next aircraft carrier, INS Vishal, Carter will listen keenly to his briefings on India’s operational doctrines.

Besides the two working groups, the DTTI has committed to US-India cooperation in developing and manufacturing four pieces of military equipment as “pathfinder projects”. These include the Cheel micro-drone that infantry platoons can launch to view the battlefield; roll-on, roll-off kits for the C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft, which are changeable interiors that allow the C-130J to be quickly configured for different missions, e.g. para-dropping, cargo-carrying, medical evacuation, etc; a mobile electric hybrid power source for various utilisations; and protective clothing for soldiers operating in a nuclear, chemical or biologically contaminated battlefield.

Carter played a leading role in establishing the DTTI when then Defence Secretary Leon Panetta proposed it in June 2012. He co-chaired the DTTI along with former National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon. The DTTI is now cho-chaired by Frank Kendall, an Under Secretary of Defence; and India’s defence secretary, G Mohan Kumar.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Singha » 01 Jun 2015 12:29

the US has already made it clear that it will not help India with nuke reactor technology for INS Vishal. the arihant reactor design is unsuitable and needs scaling up big time for such a huge ship even if we put in 4 reactors to mimic the nimitz class.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Nitesh » 01 Jun 2015 14:35

This is big game changer

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 499329.cms

As a major game-changer, the government has withdrawn excise and customs duty exemptions presently available to goods manufactured and supplied to Ministry of Defence by Ordinance Factory Board and Defence PSUs vide Notifications No. 23/2015-Central Excise and No. 29/2015-Customs dated 30.04.2015
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_28911 » 01 Jun 2015 14:41

Business Standard - Carter to face Indian demand for engine technology
US defence secretary visits Vizag on Tuesday, meets Manohar Parrikar on Wednesday

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 01 Jun 2015 18:07

Pratyush wrote:
brar_w wrote:Most of the technologies required to get to the EDE and EPE state have been developed long ago through the IHPTET effort. GE has done some testing and demonstration of the technology incorporated into the F414 family. What they need to do is fully finish the testing and develop a full fledged engine incorporating the technology that they have identified for these enhancements. Basically they need an order stream, or a customer to foot the bill of finishing the testing to get the enhancements certified.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... on-211144/



Oh, I was under the impression, that it will be another PJ10 / Brahmos type effort. Where India has the IPR and is free to make the needed modifications to the end product as per our needs.


Well you could roll it out that way but GE has a leg up on competition in the 22K thrust class because they had a lot of US DOD work to make advances in this category in the 90's and beyond. They finally rolled a lot of that stuff they developed into the F414 and conducted preliminary testing. Since then they are looking for customers to order these advanced engines or fully fund the remaining testing which is not likely to be cheap.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kanson » 01 Jun 2015 18:16

^ Is not USN the perceived customer for the said F414 enhancements...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 01 Jun 2015 18:26

even IF India were to fund certain areas of the research, I do not expect the US (or any other nation) to part with certain core technologies. That is just not going to happen.

“The DTTI should facilitate US permissions, especially with a working group in place for engine technology. But we are getting signals this may not happen,” says a top DRDO scientist.


That, IMHO, is too high a bar to set.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 01 Jun 2015 19:12

Kanson wrote:^ Is not USN the perceived customer for the said F414 enhancements...


Yes and this was the reason this engine family was something they wanted the new technology to be adopted into for future. Had it not been for the Budget Control Act (Sequester) the USN would have most likely funded the entire test program and realized the cost savings. Switching from regular F414's to EDE's with their 6000 hour turbine life and reduced SFC would have saved the USN Fleet $5Billion over the remaining life of the Super Hornet more than enough to justify the upfront cost for development, testing and ultimate procurement. However at the moment all the money is being diverted to buy the maximum amount of Super Hornets and Growlers so the USN will most likely look at these things in the post 2020 time period, probably close to 2025 when the Rhino is due to get some major depot work. The plan was to have a very smooth transfer and growth in the F414 family, with GE and Boeing having a robust stream of orders through enhanced capability funded by the USN. This would ensure strong supply base and cheaper upgrades for the USN out into the future for things like CFT's, newer radar capability, enhanced targeting pods etc etc. GE therefore was left in the dark when it came to offering the EPE for future fighter programs but there is a strong business case if they can get it certified. With The LCA production looking to ramp up, Gripen NG looking good for export, Super Hornet and Growler upgrades in the next decade and 5th generation competitions in S Korea and Turkey there is a very strong business case of these enhanced engines.
Last edited by brar_w on 01 Jun 2015 19:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby A Sharma » 01 Jun 2015 19:13

DRDO Tech Focus May 2015

MICROWAVE POWER MODULES AND COMPACT TRANSMITTERS

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kanson » 01 Jun 2015 19:40

Throws some light into the thinking on appointment of Chief & advisor...

Image
Age table explains why Christopher and not Tamilmani who was initially believed could be the replacement.

With almost all the DRDO's top scientists already on extension, or nearing the retirement age of 60, 11 of the DRDO's 12 top scientists might soon retire.

Of these 12 "distinguished scientists", the DRDO's top rank, equivalent to a lieutenant general, six have already crossed 60 years and are serving on extensions. Another five are 59 years of age, knocking on the doors of retirement.

The only candidate who fits Parrikar's twin conditions - being from the DRDO, and also young - is Satheesh Reddy, the highly regarded chief of Research Centre Imarat, a missile technology laboratory outside Hyderabad. Reddy is just 52 years old.

Even so, MoD sources do not rule out bringing in an outsider, possibly from the Atomic Energy Agency, to head the DRDO.

There is also speculation that the three hats the DRDO chief traditionally wore might be split into two or more posts. Opinion on this is divided. The Rama Rao Committee, which proposed reorganising the DRDO, recommended the three posts remain vested in a single person. The subsequent Naresh Chandra Committee recommended separation, though not trifurcation.


http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 830_1.html

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 01 Jun 2015 20:05

NRao wrote:even IF India were to fund certain areas of the research, I do not expect the US (or any other nation) to part with certain core technologies. That is just not going to happen.

“The DTTI should facilitate US permissions, especially with a working group in place for engine technology. But we are getting signals this may not happen,” says a top DRDO scientist.


That, IMHO, is too high a bar to set.


From my understanding the new relationship, and framework does allow a platform to negotiate these sort of things and you begin these things with a high bar anyhow. No engine OEM is going to hand over their entire TOT even at a high cost. As the Rafale and MMRCA negotiations have shown, highly advanced technology costs a ton to obtain but you can (and they surely will) negotiate certain key elements that can be used to enhance indigenous capability. What is likely to happen if this goes forward is that there would be some technology transfer, and local production most likely through a GE joint venture with an Indian supplier. At the moment GE is targeting a 20% cost premium for the EDE/EPE compared to the standard F414 so producing it in India can save some money at least at the direct touch assembly labor level.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kanson » 01 Jun 2015 20:09

brar_w wrote:
Kanson wrote:^ Is not USN the perceived customer for the said F414 enhancements...


Yes and this was the reason this engine family was something they wanted the new technology to be adopted into for future. Had it not been for the Budget Control Act (Sequester) the USN would have most likely funded the entire test program and realized the cost savings. Switching from regular F414's to EDE's with their 6000 hour turbine life and reduced SFC would have saved the USN Fleet $5Billion over the remaining life of the Super Hornet more than enough to justify the upfront cost for development, testing and ultimate procurement. However at the moment all the money is being diverted to buy the maximum amount of Super Hornets and Growlers so the USN will most likely look at these things in the post 2020 time period, probably close to 2025 when the Rhino is due to get some major depot work. The plan was to have a very smooth transfer and growth in the F414 family, with GE and Boeing having a robust stream of orders through enhanced capability funded by the USN. This would ensure strong supply base and cheaper upgrades for the USN out into the future for things like CFT's, newer radar capability, enhanced targeting pods etc etc. GE therefore was left in the dark when it came to offering the EPE for future fighter programs but there is a strong business case if they can get it certified. With The LCA production looking to ramp up, Gripen NG looking good for export, Super Hornet and Growler upgrades in the next decade and 5th generation competitions in S Korea and Turkey there is a very strong business case of these enhanced engines.


Buzz is that it would be F-35C facing the cut for any additional Super Hornet purchase, as i understood. Widely speculated that the upgrade of engine commences much earlier than 2020 and there was even infographic of such roadmap, if i'm not wrong.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kanson » 01 Jun 2015 20:54

^ Ok, thanks.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kanson » 01 Jun 2015 22:25

Another route apart from F414-EDE is the F414-ADVENT program that is available for DTTI to discuss.
Based on the work/interest shown by Indian labs it may not be beyond imagination to see the discussion veering towards this.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123402957
Through the incorporation of an adaptive fan and third air stream, the ADVENT engine design is capable of providing thermal management superior to that of traditional engines. Adaptive engine technologies enable a 25 percent fuel efficiency improvement and a 30 percent increase in operating range for advanced next-generation, multi-mission aircraft.

This demonstration proves the viability of core technologies key to advancing the adaptive turbine engine concept. The Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program will build off these and other demonstrations to mature these technologies in preparation for eventual low-risk transition into combat aircraft in the 2020 timeframe. The results of this demonstration, as well as the full engine test, will enable GE to develop a robust, acquisition program-level preliminary design of an adaptive engine, a key deliverable of the AETD program and the foundation for affordable transition of future high performance, fuel-efficient propulsion to combat aircraft.


GE Aviation successfully tested the world’s first non-static set of light-weight, ceramic matrix composite (CMC) parts by running rotating low-pressure turbine blades in a F414 turbofan demonstrator engine designed to further validate the heat-resistant material for high-stress operation in GE’s next-generation Adaptive Engine Technology Demonstrator (AETD) program currently in development with the United States Air Force Research Lab (AFRL).

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby srai » 02 Jun 2015 07:41

A Sharma wrote:DRDO Tech Focus May 2015

MICROWAVE POWER MODULES AND COMPACT TRANSMITTERS


...
The MPM, a synergistic combination of a solid-state- and a travelling-wave-tube-amplifier, came as a highly efficient, compact and attractive ‘avtar’ of the bulky microwave tube amplifiers. It is a hybrid super-component that combines the best attributes of both the solid-state- and vacuum-electronic devices to deliver a performance superior to either of these devices individually. The MPM relies on the principle of an equal gain-sharing between a solid-state power amplifier (SSPA) and a PB-TWT, and the use of a modern high-efficiency microprocessor controlled switched-mode power convertor to power both of them.

Globally, the MPMs have been developed with capabilities of delivering a CW power up to 300 W, gain in excess of 50 dB, bandwidth reaching 1.5 octaves and noise figure of the order of 10-13 dB. The MPMs also have tremendous advantages in size, weight, efficiency and reliability as compared to the conventional microwave amplifiers. The MPMs offer about 1/10 reduction in volume, 1/6 reduction in weight and 50% increase in efficiency as compared to those of conventional amplifiers. The reliability is also expected to be about 3 times better owing to fewer components, lower operating voltage, lower operating temperature and superior interconnect technology. They offer versatility and modularity and can be used in pulsed or CW mode, as phase- and gain-matched set for exciting a sector of a phased-array-radar or for spatial power combining. MPMs are particularly suited for ECM systems, radar illuminators, weather radars, synthetic aperture radars, terrestrial and space communication links, remotely piloted vehicles (RPVs), towed decoys, missile seekers and as amplifiers for laboratory applications.

Typically, an MPM consists of a 1-2 W, 20-30 dB gain SSPA; a short gain (20-30 dB), medium power (50-300 W), high efficiency miniature PB-TWT; and a high efficiency microprocessor controlled compact electronic power conditioner (EPC) providing: all the voltages for the SSPA and the PB-TWT, protection and control functions; all integrated in a compact light weight package. The salient features of the components of an MPM are described below.
...

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 02 Jun 2015 21:27

LOL, expect paid media and many dalals to go on a crying spree about how bad this is.
Last time around Coupta & co, via idiots like that Aroor had targeted DRDO coincidentally at a time when the org played hardball on offsets and ensured that bunkum stuff would not be passed off as offsets by vested interests.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -for-drdo/

Govt plans bigger role for DRDO
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said the policy is likely to be rolled out soon.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said the policy is likely to be rolled out soon.
Written by Pranav Kulkarni | New Delhi | Published on:June 2, 2015 1:05 am

After separating roles of the DRDO chief and scientific advisor to the Defence Minister, the Defence Ministry is now planning a bigger role for DRDO itself. The transition is likely to start with a revised offset policy.

According to a draft offset policy, which is currently being vetted by a 10-member committee, DRDO will play a central role in acquiring key defence technologies, creating an ecosystem and infrastructure for defence manufacturing within the country, much in line with the government’s ‘Make in India’ initiative. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has said the policy is likely to be rolled out soon.

The proposed guidelines also chart a key role for DRDO in the transfer of technology. The draft policy also empowers DRDO representatives to identify components and subsystems that can be manufactured within India.

Interestingly, while the foreign vendors/ equipment manufacturers will retain their freedom to choose an Indian industry partner, the new policy will have DRDO oversee the implementation of offsets.

“The philosophy within the ministry seems to be that technology should be transferred to DRDO which in turn can retain the Intellectual Property Rights,” said Amit Cowshish, former financial advisor (acquisition), Defence Ministry.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby srin » 02 Jun 2015 21:37

wow - that is so much common-sense that it can't possibly be true. That would really be what we would need as offset.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ManuJ » 02 Jun 2015 22:45

Karan M wrote: technology should be transferred to DRDO which in turn can retain the Intellectual Property Rights
Excellent!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2015 01:51

So in Dr. Reddy is the DRDO head now!!!!
Being 52 only, he will have a long innings to set the course.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby srai » 03 Jun 2015 03:30

ramana wrote:So in Dr. Reddy is the DRDO head now!!!!
Being 52 only, he will have a long innings to set the course.

What happens when his 3 year stint is up? He will be 55 and not yet at a retiring age. I thought they wanted to get rid of extensions to top jobs.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby arshyam » 03 Jun 2015 03:54

^^ Actually, Dr. Reddy is the SA to the RM, not the head of the DRDO (yet). Dr. Christopher is the DRDO head. Dr Reddy after his stint as SA, is expected to be in line for the DRDO head post in the future.

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2015/05/c ... reddy.html

After months of uncertainty and speculation, the government on Thursday night appointed Dr S Christopher as the full-time Chief of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
The government also appointed DRDO’s young brain and a missile navigation specialist Dr G Satheesh Reddy as the Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister (officially known as SA to RM).

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 03 Jun 2015 05:34

Kanson wrote:Another route apart from F414-EDE is the F414-ADVENT program that is available for DTTI to discuss.
Based on the work/interest shown by Indian labs it may not be beyond imagination to see the discussion veering towards this.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123402957
Through the incorporation of an adaptive fan and third air stream, the ADVENT engine design is capable of providing thermal management superior to that of traditional engines. Adaptive engine technologies enable a 25 percent fuel efficiency improvement and a 30 percent increase in operating range for advanced next-generation, multi-mission aircraft.

This demonstration proves the viability of core technologies key to advancing the adaptive turbine engine concept. The Adaptive Engine Technology Development (AETD) program will build off these and other demonstrations to mature these technologies in preparation for eventual low-risk transition into combat aircraft in the 2020 timeframe. The results of this demonstration, as well as the full engine test, will enable GE to develop a robust, acquisition program-level preliminary design of an adaptive engine, a key deliverable of the AETD program and the foundation for affordable transition of future high performance, fuel-efficient propulsion to combat aircraft.


GE Aviation successfully tested the world’s first non-static set of light-weight, ceramic matrix composite (CMC) parts by running rotating low-pressure turbine blades in a F414 turbofan demonstrator engine designed to further validate the heat-resistant material for high-stress operation in GE’s next-generation Adaptive Engine Technology Demonstrator (AETD) program currently in development with the United States Air Force Research Lab (AFRL).


There is no ADVENT GE-F414 program. GE just chose to do demonstrate something using one of its existing engines, while the ADVENT engine is different and is managed by AFRL's VAATE program. You won't be able to get VAATE/AETD technology into the F414 over and above what they have already done. AETD and AETP technology will not be shared and will be protected at all costs. Its something that will take another 10-12 years to develop, with first prototypes possible by 2020. It would most likely go into programs that won't be exported at least initially (6th generation fighters).

AETD is not an engine program, but an engine technology program. It leads into a transition program that begins next year (AETP) and runs for another 3 years. Once the transition program concludes, it would be possible to enter into a definite engine EMD (Engineering and Manufacturing development). At the moment the thrust class required for this EMD phase is in the 40-50K pound class. The AETP program that kicks off next year is looking at a 45K pound class engine that will take around a decade from launch and no lunch is expected before 2019 (not technically possible).

For the GE F414 demonstration, all GE did was validate some of the ADVENT work using an existing GE F414. It does not turn the F414 into an ADVENT class engine that is required to have a third stream/adaptive cycle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh5b0fhre3M

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kanson » 03 Jun 2015 10:30

brar_w wrote:There is no ADVENT GE-F414 program. GE just chose to do demonstrate something using one of its existing engines, while the ADVENT engine is different and is managed by AFRL's VAATE program. You won't be able to get VAATE/AETD technology into the F414 over and above what they have already done. AETD and AETP technology will not be shared and will be protected at all costs. Its something that will take another 10-12 years to develop, with first prototypes possible by 2020. It would most likely go into programs that won't be exported at least initially (6th generation fighters).

AETD is not an engine program, but an engine technology program.


Yes, the GE press release from which I quoted clearly mentions the same. While these programs such as AETD have specific goals, from Indian point of view, through these programs I see the capabilities and technologies it can offer to us .

Requirement of AETD, unlike ADVENT, doesn't call for build up of new engine so they are testing technologies in F414 CMC demonstrator. GE is targeting these efforts with one eye on F-35 program as well. Whatever that is getting developed and what may be the direction it take, both Pratt and GE are going to bring back those tech to F-35 program through F135 upgrade or a new one.

For us, if (that is big IF) tech transfer and engine selection happens on the expected line , it will be on the F414. DTTI can discuss on such initiatives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh5b0fhre3M

Thanks for that. Will watch at leisure.
Last edited by Kanson on 03 Jun 2015 10:37, edited 1 time in total.

brar_w
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 03 Jun 2015 10:34

GE is targeting these efforts with one eye on F-35 program as well.


GE isn't targeting anything in particular, they bid for and secured the rights to participate in the ADVENT program along the RR and they built the core t the specific demanded by AFRL. Similarly, they were selected along with Pratt and Whitney to develop the AETD cores which they are doing. This does not lead to any engine, but to a transition program starting next year that will then mature all the technology to launch an EMD engine in whichever class they want by 2019 (thats when a new engine EMD phase is launched so add 5-10 year development cycle beyond 2019, unless there is an engine being developed in secret for the bomber).

VAATE technology will not be up for discussion. VAATE is for the next generation of engines and is not going to be up for export or for upgrade for current engines. I don't even recall the last time the US DOD ever agreed to transfer tech or export technology that was still being developed in its labs, let alone in propulsion.

For us, if (that is big IF) tech transfer and engine selection happens on the expected line , it will be on the F414. DTTI can discuss on such initiatives.


GE will offer for export and discuss TOT on ( along with the Pentagon as per the guidelines established), on the EPE and EDE engines that utilize most of the work done by GE through the IHTET efforts. It will be the same set of enhancements GE has offered to the USN and will also offer to South Korea as part of their 5th generation effort.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby chaanakya » 03 Jun 2015 13:35

ramana wrote:So in Dr. Reddy is the DRDO head now!!!!
Being 52 only, he will have a long innings to set the course.

No Dr Christopher is DG/Secy DRDO. He is 59 and as part of fixed tenure policy his services will be upto 62 ( fixed three years).
Dr Reddy is Scientific Adviser. If he does well he might have a chance to become DG. But field would be wide open after Dr Christpher's retirement.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 03 Jun 2015 19:08


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 03 Jun 2015 19:09

India, U.S. clear two ground-breaking defence projects as Carter holds talks

India and the United States have sealed an agreement to jointly develop protective gear for soldiers against biological and chemical warfare, and another on building generators, defence officials said on Wednesday.


Nothing news beyond that.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jun 2015 19:11


Transalation: We only buys arms to counter whatever Pakistan buys. We do not have the ability to think strategically or think about what the country's aspirations are. We also do not want desi maal, as only phoren maal is good enough. We are SRDEs and proud of it.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 03 Jun 2015 19:24

NRao wrote:India, U.S. clear two ground-breaking defence projects as Carter holds talks

India and the United States have sealed an agreement to jointly develop protective gear for soldiers against biological and chemical warfare, and another on building generators, defence officials said on Wednesday.


Nothing news beyond that.




A video teleconference between the US and Indian sides working the carrier issue is set for June, which will be followed by the US group hosting their counterparts for visits to Washington, New Jersey and Norfolk, Virginia, home of the Newport News Shipbuilding yard.

Any agreement on major programs would be a boost for the industries of both nations. According to the Pentagon, the US and India have conducted $10 billion in weapon sales over the past decade.

While Carter said the new agreements help "blaze a trail" forward for other potential agreements, he also acknowledged institutional issues to work through in the relationship.

"There is a legacy, and historical burden, of bureaucracy in both countries, and it is a constant exercise in stripping that away," he said. "It's just the burden we carry forward from the fact that we were two separated industrial systems for so long during the Cold War. It just takes time to get the two [systems] together."

The officials highlighted the fact the chem-bio suit and generator agreements were announced in January and agreed upon just a few short months later, a fast effort by US standards and something unheard of for India's notoriously slow acquisition system, where projects can languish for years.

That is a credit to the Modi government, the officials said — a contrast to the previous political leadership on the subcontinent.

"The previous government was less proactive on the foreign policy stage, so it was sometimes a little hard to tell exactly where it was going," the first official said. "And we certainly felt that in some of our interactions."



http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /28398091/

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 03 Jun 2015 20:37

Rakesh wrote:

Transalation: We only buys arms to counter whatever Pakistan buys. We do not have the ability to think strategically or think about what the country's aspirations are. We also do not want desi maal, as only phoren maal is good enough. We are SRDEs and proud of it.


Adm, the importance of that statement is that what he said while the US Sec of Def was on Indian soil.

India is now on the path to be a player - regional/global/whatever, but a player that she never was for 60 years.

____________________________

This and the statements Modi made while in China has a lot of meaning from a strategic point of view. Need to see how all this translates into benefiting the Services that are tasked with implementing aspects of this policy/stance.

But, it looks good.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 03 Jun 2015 20:44

brar_w wrote:
"There is a legacy, and historical burden, of bureaucracy in both countries, and it is a constant exercise in stripping that away," he said. "It's just the burden we carry forward from the fact that we were two separated industrial systems for so long during the Cold War. It just takes time to get the two [systems] together."



Key. Rest is all gravy.

1) THAT will take time
2) Unlike with the Soviets/Russians, there is not much investments in terms of emotions. So, the decisions will be quick/sudden and to the point
3) When overcome, it will last only as long as the overlapping interests survive their respective span of attention
4) A huge thanks to China for getting this ball to roll

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2015 21:21

norfolk shipyard only has 3 CVNs to build of the gerald ford class until 2025..the pace of cvn funding has slowed down as the nimitz class is very durable and capable. they will also keep on doing multi-year major refits on the nimitz class in parallel.

so they should have engg resources to devote to designing a 65000 QE2 sized carrier with a conventional CODAG power plant and make sure it all works well with catapults. nations like Soko and Japan and Brazil might have interest in licensing the design and building it.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 04 Jun 2015 20:35

chem-bio suit and generator agreements :rotfl:


WTF is this shit ???

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jun 2015 20:45

We asked for engine technology. We got the middle finger. And then got baksheesh in the form of chem-bio suit and generators.

Unkil is such a dear friend :mrgreen:

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 04 Jun 2015 21:06

^^^ What bakseesh saar we have our own state of the art NBC suit Mk.5 and I have frankly no idea what super duper generator is going to be researched by India and Murica. These low hanging techs were chosen to get the ball rolling (I think pretty lame though) and Murica doesn't have the balls nor the tech superiority to show us the middle finger now. Those days are gone hence all the fawning from Muricunts about bhaichaara and all things sweet :roll:

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 04 Jun 2015 21:13

Rakesh wrote:We asked for engine technology. We got the middle finger. And then got baksheesh in the form of chem-bio suit and generators.

Unkil is such a dear friend :mrgreen:


Those had been in the works for some time. Larger, more extensive and high tech deals under the new initiative are in the works and will take time to follow through. It may well be the case that the sort of deal may not see the light of day but they are working on them at the moment (EMALS, GE Engines etc). The negotiations, and dialogues on things such as EMALS and GE engines are likely to take some time given that the 10 year framework on which these partnerships are to be formed just received a nod.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nndnM_8IZQ

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby brar_w » 05 Jun 2015 17:58

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