India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 14:33

You are welcome.

I am hoping we see the bulk orders for BEL TIs now go out with the latest IITubes. IMO, IA did the right thing by insisting on latest FOM. Only by doing so, did they force the MOD into spending for the tech. I hope even so, the order is split between Tata Power SED and BEL, so that the IA is not forced to rely only on BEL.
Tata-Power-SED-targets-nearly-Rs7-trillion-in-defence-opport.html
Chaudhry claims that his company has a technology edge within the industry and points to the fact that it is providing the Indian police forces with “third-generation” NVDs or Night Vision Devices with “Figure of Merit” (or FoM) rating of 1,700-plus. “We hope to do the same with the Indian Army,” he said.

The US limits export of NVDs to non-NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) countries beyond 1,450 FoM and also mandates end user monitoring on high FoM NVDs exported with US technologies.

Chaudhry said the company is also building power systems with operating range of -30C to +55C, a capability that will give the Indian soldier an edge in the battlefield. These systems were on display at the Defence Expo in Goa.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2016 15:12

http://defense-update.com/20160330_leds_india.html

The Swedish defense company SAAB and Indian company Tata Power Strategic Engineering Division (Tata Power SED) have started the process of manufacturing Self-Protection Systems for Land-based Platforms, for the Indian market and for export to SAAB’s global market.

According to the company’s’ announcement, the partnership will also involve joint development of the next generation Self-Protection System. ‘The process of Transfer of Technology for production of initial orders for SAAB’s global customers has already commenced at Tata Power SED.’s facility in Bangalore.’ Saab announced, Tata Power SED will eventually manufacture a large part of the system in India and also do final assembly. Tata will also be responsible for marketing the system in India
.

Land Electronic Defence System (LEDS) 50 MK2 is a subset of an integrated and modular, active defense system consisting of a Laser Warning Segment (LWS) and Effector Control Segment (OSCS). The solution provides combat personnel with vital situational awareness on laser threats and countermeasure availability and areas of coverage/protection offered under dynamic conditions, allowing manual or fully automatic responses against threats.

At Defexpo 2016 Tata displayed a model of T-90 fitted with LEDS 150 active protection system, comprising radar sensors and traversable countermeasure dispensers designed to protect the tank from anti-tank missiles and RPGs.

Given the long-term potential for self-protection systems for combat vehicles, both in India and abroad, we see this collaboration with Saab as an important milestone in boosting India’s capabilities in building defence systems.” said Rahul Chaudhry, CEO, Tata Power SED. “It is perfectly aligned with the actual essence of “Make In India” initiatives being implemented by the Indian government”.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vasu raya » 03 Apr 2016 20:35

Heavy Drop System (HDS): A 16 ton capacity
HDS consisting of a platform and a highly
advanced system of parachutes to drop
loads consisting of military stores such as
vehicles (including BMP class), supplies and
ammunition from IL-76 heavy lift aircraft has
been designed developed and demonstrated.
The system is an extension of technology
developed by DRDO for ‘P-7 HDS’, the
seven ton capacity HDS developed earlier
and already accepted by Indian Army for
induction. During this year, maiden high
altitude HDS trial was successfully carried
out in April 2015 at Leh which demonstrated
a unique capability of dropping heavy
payload in high altitude for the first time in
India. Before this trial, DRDO successfully
completed performance evaluation by
conducting 5 User Assisted Technical Trials
(UATTs) including one high altitude (HA)
simulated trial at Rajasthan in February
2015.


Can they use this for air dropping Howitzers in the mountains?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 08 Apr 2016 23:40

ramana wrote:Somebody explain this para of the report:-

New Family of Munitions: Six types of
munitions are being designed and developed
by DRDO viz. Nipun, Vibhav, Vishal, Parth,
Prachand and Ulka to improve the existing
munitions and enhance its performance
. User
Assisted Technical Trials (UATT) of Soft Target
Blast Munition ‘NIPUN’
has been completed
and the system has been offered for User
trials. Lethality trials with new main body
assembly and desert trials of Anti-Tank Point
Attack Munition ‘VIBHAV’
have been carried
out. Dynamic trials with BMP/ AFV, explosive
train trials and desert trials of Anti-Tank Bar
Munition ‘VISHAL’
have been conducted
successfully. Moulding trials of Jumping
Fragmentation Munition ‘ULKA’
is under
progress. User demo trials of Directional
Fragmentation Module ‘PARTH’
have been
completed and field trials are in progress.


There highlighted the descriptions of the six new types of munitions. The descriptions give their intended use and the sentences give status.


There is too much jargon and it is still not clear, as to what are these munitions? For instance, is VIBHAV an RPG or air dropped top attack anti tank munition loaded into a warhead or bomb?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2016 01:52

My understanding is this is a program to create a series of new mines and warheads to replace existing mines and warheads used by IA with smart rounds or more effective ones.

New Family of Munitions: Six types of
munitions are being designed and developed
by DRDO viz. Nipun, Vibhav, Vishal, Parth,
Prachand and Ulka to improve the existing
munitions and enhance its performance. User
Assisted Technical Trials (UATT) of Soft Target
Blast Munition ‘NIPUN’ has been completed
and the system has been offered for User
trials.


Soft targets = vehicles, troops etc. So basically a bomb which can be deployed by troops or it could be deployed as part of existing weaponry.

Lethality trials with new main body
assembly and desert trials of Anti-Tank Point
Attack Munition ‘VIBHAV’ have been carried
out.


This could be very well some sort of smart mine to take out tanks. Note point attack, anti tank. Think explosive charge projectile.

Dynamic trials with BMP/ AFV, explosive
train trials and desert trials of Anti-Tank Bar
Munition ‘VISHAL’ have been conducted
successfully.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L9_Bar_Mine

Moulding trials of Jumping
Fragmentation Munition ‘ULKA’ is under
progress.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_mine

User demo trials of Directional
Fragmentation Module ‘PARTH’ have been
completed and field trials are in progress.


Could be a claymore type unit.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 09 Apr 2016 03:15

Pimpri Chinchwad: Intravenous fluid that does not freeze even at -15°C, useful in Siachen, has been developed by pharmaceutical public sector unit Hindustan Antibiotics Limited (HAL).

Four years after the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) approached the public sector drug manufacturer, the company has also developed three products which will be useful for treatment in case of a nuclear emergency.

Speaking to TOI, KV Varkey, managing director of HAL, said, "DRDO approached the company in 2011 with its wishlist of 15 products out of which we have been successful in developing four."


Siachen is the highest military base in the world at an altitude above 6,000 metres where the temperature comes down to -15 degrees celsius and even lower.In any emergency involving human lives, doctors find it difficult to provide immediate medical treatment because intravenous (IV) fluids and injectables are in a solid form, Varkey said. They can be melted with great difficulty and precious time is lost in the process, he added.He said it was an India-specific problem as there is no military base at such high altitudes anywhere in the world. "The volume of business is too small to attract big pharma companies.

But HAL has developed a glycerin-based product which prevents freezing. Glycerin formulation extracts fluid out of injured tissues in the brain and lungs thus reducing edema and improving oxygenation," Varkey said.Another expert in HAL said ,"Normal saline will freeze at Siachen base due to the very low temperatures. But we have developed the gylcerated formulation containing saline which remains in liquid state at very low temperatures, which can be administered to the injured soldiers quickly and save lives.


Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 720736.cms

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 14 Apr 2016 18:56

A superb new video by DRDO of their accomplishments with some mouthwatering slow-mo videos of Pinaka and such, along with perhaps the first video/pics of ATAGS.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=videoplay.jsp&vn=video/DRDO-Defexpo.mp4

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 14 Apr 2016 20:15

Arun Menon wrote:A superb new video by DRDO of their accomplishments with some mouthwatering slow-mo videos of Pinaka and such, along with perhaps the first video/pics of ATAGS.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=videoplay.jsp&vn=video/DRDO-Defexpo.mp4


A lot of stock footage unrelated to DRDO stuff was also used, so cant really if it was the ATAGS.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 14 Apr 2016 20:19

Did anybody notice new DRDO programme for MPA based on C-295 in the video? Can I take credit for being the first to point out? :rotfl:

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 14 Apr 2016 20:26

Also there is no indication that XR-5 based NVG production has been started by BEL. Our total requirement of NVGs for all types of security services would be something like 300,000 units. And around 100,000 thermal imagers. The procurement being spread over 5 years. But rather than this immediate essential purchase we will order imported Brahmos, useless SPGs, junk SMGs or even Apaches but our infantry is still mostly incapable of fighting at night.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby titash » 15 Apr 2016 02:52

Arun Menon wrote:A superb new video by DRDO of their accomplishments with some mouthwatering slow-mo videos of Pinaka and such, along with perhaps the first video/pics of ATAGS.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=videoplay.jsp&vn=video/DRDO-Defexpo.mp4


Awesome find. Arun Menon. Major weapons systems on the cusp of induction...Varunastra finally ready, Astra & Pinaka Mk2 almost there. Hopefully there are going to be many Akash type mass production successes in the next 2-3 years.

If I remember correctly, the navy only ordered 25 of the LWTs that were productionized a few years back. Anyone know why? Are they waiting for the A-244S stocks to reach end-of-life? Or perhaps its because our surface units mostly use HWTs and the Varunastra might see a long production run.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vipul » 15 Apr 2016 04:37

HAL Chairman on its production plans.

How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India?
The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings. If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year. So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.

Has there been progress on the Light Combat Helicopter?
As a platform, the LCH has passed all requirements. It is now a viable platform and depending on the weapons requirement by the Army, the Air Force or another country, we will integrate them. Two countries have expressed keenness in the product and we would approach them shortly. We have got clearance from the government to export the choppers a few months ago.

What is the progress in setting up a new helicopter facility for engines?
We are looking at a joint venture company to be formed with Turbomeca and are trying to locate a place to build a facility in Goa. This will be for work on the Shakti and 2B2 engines. We are looking to close this in not more than 60 days by choosing a place that suits us.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 15 Apr 2016 05:29

Gyan wrote:Did anybody notice new DRDO programme for MPA based on C-295 in the video? Can I take credit for being the first to point out? :rotfl:



I did notice that, but forgot to mention it (I posted the video some time after I actually saw it), but since you were the first to mention it, the credit is certainly yours :D

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 15 Apr 2016 08:49

It is good know that HAL is finally thinking of setting up a building in which the fake JV engine Shakti might be assembled only after 10 years of agreement and 15 years of imports. Wonder when will they enter into JV to indigenise the seat covers of ALH?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prem Kumar » 15 Apr 2016 09:38

Karan: could VIBHAV be an air-dropped sensor-fuzed-munition?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Austin » 15 Apr 2016 12:10

Vipul wrote:So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.


Thats the most interesting part , as most of Tejas work can be done by Pvt player and HAL can just be system integrator ... so this make Pvt participation in Tejas program in a very big way.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 15 Apr 2016 12:58

Austin wrote:
Vipul wrote:So, we are looking for capacity augmentation with these private players. We are looking at a concept in which HAL is an integrator that has some 20% (of total) work in the hangers. The remaining 80% of work can be off loaded to the industry. If a private company for example is setting up a shop for composites manufacturing, it will be assured for business for many years.


Thats the most interesting part , as most of Tejas work can be done by Pvt player and HAL can just be system integrator ... so this make Pvt participation in Tejas program in a very big way.


HAL is saying that inspite of funds allocated in 2001, we did not construct even the building for setting up the assembly lines of LCA. Now let us spray perfume over the turd and outsource 80% to Pvt Sector. HAL management will simply act as a Gate keeper for the hafta. I say go the whole hog, transfer the whole LCA line to pvt sector, and give 10 awards to HAL for every One LCA produced by pvt sector.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 15 Apr 2016 13:01

Arun Menon wrote:
Gyan wrote:Did anybody notice new DRDO programme for MPA based on C-295 in the video? Can I take credit for being the first to point out? :rotfl:



I did notice that, but forgot to mention it (I posted the video some time after I actually saw it), but since you were the first to mention it, the credit is certainly yours :D


Ok, we will have a Indus Water treaty, you get 20% to do all the work but will not be able to use it and I get 80% credit but will whine all the time about all my hardwork in locating the information till end of time. :rotfl:

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 15 Apr 2016 13:33

HAL Chairman on its production plans.

What is the progress in setting up a new helicopter facility for engines?
We are looking at a joint venture company to be formed with Turbomeca and are trying to locate a place to build a facility in Goa. This will be for work on the Shakti and 2B2 engines. We are looking to close this in not more than 60 days by choosing a place that suits us.


Whats the hurry, a couple of decades here or there, do not matter.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 15 Apr 2016 14:21

Gyan wrote:Wonder when will they enter into JV to indigenise the seat covers of ALH?


You may or may not know this, but the DID actually mention seats as part of indegenization in a JV once. I forgot which product it was. So, really, the jokes on you. They are one step ahead. :D

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 15 Apr 2016 22:50

ALH seats are imported from Germany. I hope and wish HAL can laugh at me by indgenising 90% components of ALH unlike the present situation wherein 90% components are imported.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22605 » 15 Apr 2016 23:15

Do you expect HAL to make seats? How many suppliers in India make aviation grade seats? Before you spew your venom on HAL, try doing some research. HAL has the design for a helicopter with insane high altitude performance and one which is the best in its class by some margin. Except for the engines(which are license produced) and some avionics LRUs which are just not available in the country, the core of the Helicopter, the rotors and gearbox(probably the only one of its kind) are indigenous. HAL can make seats, seat covers, fabric etc etc but please tell me which aircraft manufacturer makes those things? Any manufacturer would choose the cheapest and proven option and in this case it happens to be a foreign supplier. If there were a local alternative HAL would surely have gone with it but as things stand we don't have one and private players if they are really honest and interested should invest on these low hanging fruits but they won't because it doesn't make financial sense to them given the low numbers and high certification costs. So stop your constant anti HAL rants and read up before posting.
Cheers!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 15 Apr 2016 23:18

Raghu, wasn't Genser contracted to design the seats? Are they from Martin Baker?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 16 Apr 2016 06:05

raghuk wrote:Do you expect HAL to make seats? How many suppliers in India make aviation grade seats? Before you spew your venom on HAL, try doing some research. HAL has the design for a helicopter with insane high altitude performance and one which is the best in its class by some margin. Except for the engines(which are license produced) and some avionics LRUs which are just not available in the country, the core of the Helicopter, the rotors and gearbox(probably the only one of its kind) are indigenous. HAL can make seats, seat covers, fabric etc etc but please tell me which aircraft manufacturer makes those things? Any manufacturer would choose the cheapest and proven option and in this case it happens to be a foreign supplier. If there were a local alternative HAL would surely have gone with it but as things stand we don't have one and private players if they are really honest and interested should invest on these low hanging fruits but they won't because it doesn't make financial sense to them given the low numbers and high certification costs. So stop your constant anti HAL rants and read up before posting.
Cheers!


Please don't get disheartened by persistent criticism. There are more and more people appreciating what DRDO, HAL, etc. have been doing all these years. The are many of us who appreciate the good work done.

Regarding the seats, I could have sworn that they are locally made nowadays (at least for one product). I guess I am wrong. Are any of these aviation grade seats made in India?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby putnanja » 16 Apr 2016 06:08

Many people expect everything to be 100% indigenous. Reality is that unless there is big volume, its going to be hugely expensive. Helicopter seats, aircraft seats are not like car seats. They need to be capable of sustaining at least 16G impact (thats for civil aircraft) and they need to be certified by relevant agencies. And for 50-100 seats per year?? Whether its car manufaturer or aircraft manufacturer, most big names are essentially integrators. At least 60-70% of various subsystems are by different vendors. Even in case of Airbus or Boeing, avionics, radars, seats, galleys, landing gears, communication equipment, engines etc are all done by various private companies. Many such vendors supply to both Boeing and Airbus as they have volume and costs go down. Even for aircraft seat manufacturers, there are not that many companies in the world. In case of Boeing and Airbus, I believe even the FCS are developed by other companies, not by themselves.

Unless we can build an ecosystem, and have sufficient orders to make it commercially viable, no one will do that. Look at Arjun, people say its very expensive. Thats because we don't have economies of scale. Same will happen to LCA if we try to indeginize every single part.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 16 Apr 2016 07:00

Asking why HAL does not manufacture seats only reveals the ignorance of the person who has the rant. I think we like discussing aviation but too many people cannot see the difference between aviation and cottage industries like the wooden toys produced in Channapatna near Bangalore, or Bankura pottery.

Martin Baker is the world's leading manufacturer of ejection and crashworthy seats

That apart:

Anyone who has done international travel from the 1970s to today might recall what airline seats used to be like "back then" and what they are like now. This is largely because of a few companies that dominate the scene.
Please see this:
RECARO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recaro
RECARO GmbH & Co. KG, commonly known as Recaro, is a German company based in Kirchheim unter Teck in the vicinity of Stuttgart, known for their automobile bucket seats. The company can produce OEM racing-style seats for mainstream manufacturers. RECARO GmbH & Co. KG is part of the Recaro Group.

The Recaro Holding as parent company of the Recaro Group owns the Recaro brand and the independently operating companies of the Recaro Group:


Recaro also manufactures seats for airliners; demand has grown, with output reaching 70,000 seats in 2010, so Recaro plans to increase capacity.[4] In 2010, Recaro developed a slimline seat for airlines in conjunction with Lufthansa; Lufthansa have ordered 32000, and other airlines have ordered a further 6000.[5] Other significant customers include Air France, KLM, United Airlines, American Airlines, Croatia Airlines, JetBlue Airways, AirTran Airways, Qantas and Air New Zealand.

Recaro's primary competitors in the airline seating business include Acro Aircraft Seating, Zodiac Seats U.S., Zodiac Seats France, Aviointeriors, BE Aerospace, Expliseat, and Thompson Aero Seating.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 16 Apr 2016 07:15

Seat technology itself is changing because of space requirements and new materials. This stuff is not sanctioned and the companies working on this and researching all the time produce the best and cheapest seats. It makes perfect sense to import. It is another matter that we would, if it was necessary, have a "seat development research program" but I would have thought making engines or silicon chips has greater priority in India

1: "back then seat"
Image
2. Modern seat
Image

Modern seats are slimmer, lighter, take up less space and either allow fuel savings or allow more seats/more passengers per flight.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vasu raya » 16 Apr 2016 20:40

Arun Menon wrote:A superb new video by DRDO of their accomplishments with some mouthwatering slow-mo videos of Pinaka and such, along with perhaps the first video/pics of ATAGS.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=videoplay.jsp&vn=video/DRDO-Defexpo.mp4


The nifty design of the stair climbing robot could go as a base for the Daksh ROV instead of the current golf cart chassis

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 16 Apr 2016 22:45

Hal is definitely the best in the world. They neither make seats and nor the engines nor the assembly line for LCA inspite of money allocated 15 years ago. While claiming credit for design and development of ALH done by MBB.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 16 Apr 2016 23:03

^^ Yeah sure. How much will you try to run down HALs efforts?

Gp Capt (Retd) Hari Nair VM, has been associated with the Dhruv (ALH) programme since 1992 and has commanded a combined Chetak-Cheetah unit in the Western sector. He formed and commanded the Sarang Helicopter Display Team comprising Dhruv helicopters, during 2003-2005. He joined Flight Ops (RW), HAL in 2009 and has clocked over 6,000 hours of accident or incident-free flight hours. He currently test-flies the Light Combat Helicopter as well.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/02/ ... -hand.html

The following paper by HAL's Group Captain (Retd) Hari Nair is to be presented at the Aero India 2013 seminar this week.

Whereas today one is not aware of the imperatives that influenced the drafting of the staff requirements in the late Seventies, or the decision of the Negotiations Committee in accepting the recommendations of MBB in the early Eighties, the fact remains that some of the futuristic design options put forth by MBB were initially resounding failures. The project that was supposed to have progressed smoothly under the tutelage of advanced German technology, instead stumbled badly to almost a point of no-return and required extreme effort by our indigenous teams to recover, re-develop from basic design stages and optimise for production.

It would also appear that MBB had either over-estimated their capabilities or perhaps had even attempted to experiment the feasibility of some of these concepts at the cost of our project.

9. Abrupt Departure of MBB. During 1994-95, MBB’s involvement in design consultancy of the project abruptly ceased as their contract had expired and was not renewed for any further period. This period was crucial, as flights of the first prototypes were well underway and all the design related problems were showing up on test-benches, Ground Test Vehicle (GTV) and on the prototypes.

The project to develop the MGB was sub-contracted by MBB to ZF (Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen), Germany, a drive-train specialist that had previous aviation experience limited to developing and building gear boxes for the smaller MBB’s BK-117 and Bo-105 helicopters.

Initially ZF’s MGBs stubbornly refused to improve despite various efforts and this threatened to bring the whole project literally and figuratively to a grinding halt. After MBB (and ZF) left, it took our dedicated in-house transmission team many years of sweat and hard work, to recover the situation by going back to the drawing board, experiment with several remedial measures and introduce numerous modifications, so as to gradually bring the MGB to production standard. Obviously, this caused severe delays in the project.

Based on MBB’s recommendations, it had been decided to introduce a new high-tech three-axis vibration damping system to attenuate main rotor vibrations. There are four ARIS (Anti Resonance Isolation System) dampers and the MGB is mounted on these to isolate vibrations developed by the main rotor from the fuselage. Like the MGB, the initial ARIS design by MBB was another spectacular failure. All four ARIS failed halfway through the first flight itself and on return, all the four ARIS’s composite diaphragms were found cracked. Like the MGB, the ARIS proved to be another extremely difficult design failure to correct. Despite initial modifications, the ARIS springs used to routinely fail within 10 hours of flight. Again after MBB left, it was another herculean task again taken on by our in-house vibration analyses group to re-design, experiment and gradually bring the ARIS to a standard suited for production aircraft.

(b) Subsequently, it was learnt that MBB had worked in parallel on another version of vibration isolators and had installed a simpler two-axis SARIB vibration dampers on their Tiger attack helicopter, which uses a main rotor similar to the ALH. During an informal interaction many years later with MBB’s then chief designer for ALH in India, he candidly indicated to this author that the ARIS in his opinion was not an easy concept to implement and should not have been used for a first-time project like the ALH. Here it would appear that there was an attempt by MBB to experiment with an uncertain high-risk design option on our project.

Also, MBB either over-estimated their capabilities to implement all of these or had perhaps also attempted to experiment on some of these concepts at the cost of the ALH project. The fact is that there were severe delays to the project mainly attributable to severe problems in some of the new concepts being implemented and at certain points in time, the nature of some of the failures had even threatened to derail the project altogether. The lesson is thus quite clear – even with good design consultancy, limit the number of new concepts being implemented, especially for a first-time project.

21. Accountability of Design Consultant. The abrupt departure of MBB during 1994-95 was due to non-renewal of contract and this was at the time when flight testing had picked up and all the problems related to some of the new concepts being implemented, especially the MGB, ARIS and increase in Empty Weight had clearly manifested. HAL designers, with no previous experience were now suddenly required to tackle these issues, which led to further delays. Ideally, MBB should have been held accountable and asked to stay on to rectify these difficult design deficiencies. They could have been contracted to stay on, until the design was successfully transferred to the regular production line. The extension contract document could have been structured to include these aspects and also progressively reduce their involvement as the project matured towards production.

Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 16 Apr 2016 23:52

Indigenous Commanders Sight for Arjun Mk2. Replaces the Elbit COAPS used for initial trials. As predicted the DRDO stabilized sight development has worked. :D

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LJi-fFgihys/ ... BSight.jpg

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 16 Apr 2016 23:57

Product improvement
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b_rOKdqCuP4/ ... eels-1.jpg
Aluminium wheels on T-72 saved 1T of weight, improved speed to double.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DvT10SSJ_vg/ ... eels-2.jpg
Arjun MK2s grenade launchers - note they can be rotated. With the IRDE developed anti laser, thermal smoke grenades, they have a clear intent
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KPa3FtKh2B4/ ... Mounts.jpg

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 17 Apr 2016 00:14

Image

IA Shatrujeet Exercise.

deejay
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby deejay » 17 Apr 2016 07:54

Karan M wrote:Indigenous Commanders Sight for Arjun Mk2. Replaces the Elbit COAPS used for initial trials. As predicted the DRDO stabilized sight development has worked. :D

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LJi-fFgihys/ ... BSight.jpg


Karan, I think even Tonbo makes similar products. Is this some earlier DRDO initiative or was Tonbo alternative not considered / overlooked for this?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Gyan » 17 Apr 2016 10:07

CAG report gives details that MBB was contracted for R&D + setting up production line of ALH. Once the progamme was near completion HAL grabbed it's management as super lucrative stage of ordering sub components was reached. Thereafter they delayed it by 10 years like all their current non-efforts. I can only run down HAL "efforts" if they make any. HAL is like pre-liberalization MTNL-BSNL, constant self praise about every small step while being patently incompetent.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 17 Apr 2016 11:20

Your interpretation of CAG report apart, there is a clear report on MBBs antics by someone involved in the program. Lets not come with such claims to attack HAL when the facts are different. There is a lot HAL can do to improve but lets go by real issues.

Indranil
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 18 Apr 2016 21:51

Gyan wrote:CAG report gives details that MBB was contracted for R&D + setting up production line of ALH. Once the progamme was near completion HAL grabbed it's management as super lucrative stage of ordering sub components was reached. Thereafter they delayed it by 10 years like all their current non-efforts. I can only run down HAL "efforts" if they make any. HAL is like pre-liberalization MTNL-BSNL, constant self praise about every small step while being patently incompetent.

There is a lot of information on the evolution of Dhruv on BRF from its conception as a world beating helicopter (as you rightly said by MBB), followed by hurdles faced, followed by MBBs exit, followed by the work at HAL, delays and triumphs. There are lots of lessons to learn as well which have been discussed by very eminent people attached to the project or monitoring the project. If you are interested, please read up.

At the moment, it you sound really hollow. Asking why HAL doesn't build seats for Dhruv is quite laughable. Saying that HAL took MBB's credit for Dhruv is similarly very poorly informed. If it was the case MBB would be jumping and down, right? Why don't we see so?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 18 Apr 2016 22:09

Gyan wrote:HAL is saying that inspite of funds allocated in 2001, we did not construct even the building for setting up the assembly lines of LCA. Now let us spray perfume over the turd and outsource 80% to Pvt Sector. HAL management will simply act as a Gate keeper for the hafta. I say go the whole hog, transfer the whole LCA line to pvt sector, and give 10 awards to HAL for every One LCA produced by pvt sector.

So the the production standard was fixed in 2011, and HAL should have set up a production line in 2001. That's very deep logic! By the way, you would be surprised to know that all modern "assembly lines" are used to "assemble" completed parts which are outsourced to a wide variety of vendors.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_23694 » 18 Apr 2016 22:22

By the way, you would be surprised to know that all modern "assembly lines" are used to "assemble" completed parts which are outsourced to a wide variety of vendors.

Which unfortunately HAL learnt just recently. Airbus / Boeing / LM all have vendors like Tata/Mahindra and all, NOT SURE if HAL has with any of these big players. For ex. Airbus has chosen Tata as a contractor for C-295 [not JV].

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 18 Apr 2016 22:39

deejay wrote:
Karan M wrote:Indigenous Commanders Sight for Arjun Mk2. Replaces the Elbit COAPS used for initial trials. As predicted the DRDO stabilized sight development has worked. :D

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LJi-fFgihys/ ... BSight.jpg


Karan, I think even Tonbo makes similar products. Is this some earlier DRDO initiative or was Tonbo alternative not considered / overlooked for this?


I think with Mk2 IRDE/DRDO erred on the side of caution and took tried and tested, "proven" partner which was Elbit to develop their local sights of which this latest one is a derivative. One of Tonbo's sights looks very similar to the sight on the RCWS (remote gun on turret)... but not sure.
The Tonbo guys do have some tenders open with IA/IN - hopefully those work out! And then DRDO will be less risk averse in partnering with them.


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