India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

[Prasad]

Dear friends. I was awarded as first prize winner in "DRDO Dare to Dream contest". The award ceremony was held on 15th Oct during the 41st DRDO Directors Conference. This news article describes the event.

https://www.opindia.com/2019/10/coas-bi ... onference/

you can see a bit of the awards ceremony in this news clip

Congrats !

[csaurabh]

You should register your company if you haven't yet. You are listed as an individual on DRDO's site.

It is registered. At the time of application we had not yet received dipp status, hence individual.

[Indranil]

Congratulations and consolations. You and I are in the same boat (of entrepreneurship).

[jaysimha]

https://www.cecri.res.in/

CSIR CECRI - Central Electrochemical Research Institute



I got the link of the video, however I am unable to play in my computer now.
Others may please check

[Abhibhushan]

CSIR-CECRI

the video works on IPAD PRO.

[Karan M]

At the bottom, likely the first image of the enhanced LRTR.

[Karan M]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 712660.cms

Frequency selective radome designed by a scholar, with prior experience from NAL. Plans to work with DRDO to take up further programs.

[kit]

At the bottom, likely the first image of the enhanced LRTR.

Source and larger pic please

[nam]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/trichy/nit-t-scholars-radome-design-tops-drdo-contest/articleshow/71712660.cms

Frequency selective radome designed by a scholar, with prior experience from NAL. Plans to work with DRDO to take up further programs.

I wonder if such a concept can be used on the aircraft body itself, to allow it let through EM and then be absorbed by materials under the first layer. Or have a top layer made of material similar to aircraft cone, to allow through all frequencies and be absorbed by a layer below.

Problem with stealth has always been that you don't have strong enough material to build a aircraft body.

[Indranil]

Structural and cost restrictions apply.

[Atmavik]

Thank you guys. It is a milestone in my journey as an aerospace entrepreneur.

Congrats!! we are all rooting for you.

[VinodTK]

Extremely good show on Indian Radar history and the future, lot of good information by Dr. V K Saraswat

[ramana]

Photo catalog of DRDO products:

https://www.drdo.gov.in/products?combin ... tle&page=0

[Karan M]

https://imrmedia.in/current-issue.php#767
Bhabha Kavach BPJ Meets NIJ III Standards

Public sector undertaking Mishra Dhatu Nigam (MIDHANI) and Bhabha Atomic Research Centre have together developed Bhabha Kavach – a bullet proof jacket – at the request of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). The OFB was asked by the Central Armed Police Forces (CAPFs) under the ministry of home affairs to develop and provide bulletproof jackets that offer greater protection than those used by the Army.

Firing trials of Bhabha Kavach carried out at Gujarat Forensic Science University have validated that the jacket meets US National Institute of Justice (NIJ) Level III standards, which guarantees protection against 7.62 mm NATO-standard bullets. NIJ's next Level IV includes protection against armour-piercing rounds.

The challenge was to develop a jacket that weighed less than 9.5 kg and could stop steel-jacketed, 7.62-mm NATO-standard bullets. This was intended to protect CAPF personnel from 7.62 mm bullets fired from AK-47 rifles – the chosen weapon of militants from Kashmir to Bastar.

CAPFs like the Central Reserve Police Force, Border Security Force, Indo-Tibet Border Police, and Sashastra Seema Bal, which secure the towns and cities of Kashmir, are exposed to AK-47 bullets. In 2016-17, in consultation with the CAPFs, the Bureau of Police Research & Development laid down specifications for a heavier jacket with NIJ Level III protection.

The OFB claims the weight specifications have been met. Bhabha Kavach weighs 9.2 kg, 300 gm lighter than the requirements.

OFB officials say Bhabha Kavach is built from layers of "high-density, high-tenacity polyethelene, which are thermo-sealed" by MIDHANI. This means the layers are fused together at high temperature. This forms a thick, hard armour plate, which is then sprayed with BARC's carbon nanomaterial. Soaking into the layers of the plate, the nanomaterial instils the toughness and tenacity needed to slow down and trap a bullet as it passes through the plate.

Each Bharat Kavach has four hard armour plates, which protect the wearer from the front, back, and either side. BARC has transferred the carbon nanomaterial technology to the OFB.

The CAPFs have projected a combined initial requirement of 100,000 jackets. Once it receives a supply order, OFB says it will deliver 10,000 jackets per month. This can be ramped up, based on order volumes. The OFB is also exploring export markets for the Bhabha Kavach, including Nepal, Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia.

[srai]

^^^
Any specific reason BARC doing R&D for BPJ? Bit odd.

[agupta]

^^^
Any specific reason BARC doing R&D for BPJ? Bit odd.

+1

And MIDHANI doing HDPE ??? Or did they just loan someone a heat treatment cell ?

I call DDM... hopefully something genuine IS happening

[ramana]

^^^
Any specific reason BARC doing R&D for BPJ? Bit odd.

Looks like the carbon nano material infusion in the layered plastic.. Basically its four contured sheets and formed into a jacket. And its NATO level 4 protection.

And note it's for 7.62x51mm. AK 47 is less energetic with 7.62x39mm.

[Karan M]

^^^
Any specific reason BARC doing R&D for BPJ? Bit odd.

Nothing odd. They constantly take R&D projects in allied fields as their research is often interdisciplinary. The LCA MMRs gimbal assembly is from BARC-ECIL.

[Karan M]

^^^
Any specific reason BARC doing R&D for BPJ? Bit odd.

+1

And MIDHANI doing HDPE ??? Or did they just loan someone a heat treatment cell ?

I call DDM... hopefully something genuine IS happening

No DDM here. It's a fairly straightforward report. Five minutes on any search engine
Original:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/07/ ... t.html?m=1

Other reports
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 7.ece/amp/
From 2017
https://m.facebook.com/TeamINDRA/photos ... 754279775/

[Rahul M]

Don't go by the name of the research org to guess what it does. BARC is a research institute like any other and not limited to atomics only.

[tsarkar]

^^^
Any specific reason BARC doing R&D for BPJ? Bit odd.

They’re among the best Material Research organizations in India, given that nuclear research requires special materials to be developed and produced from a scratch

[agupta]

+1

And MIDHANI doing HDPE ??? Or did they just loan someone a heat treatment cell ?

I call DDM... hopefully something genuine IS happening

No DDM here. It's a fairly straightforward report. Five minutes on any search engine
Original:
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/07/ ... t.html?m=1

Other reports
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 7.ece/amp/
From 2017
https://m.facebook.com/TeamINDRA/photos ... 754279775/

Thanks, Karan.... the Hindu report was very useful. Mea culpa - was too lazy to go dig.

BARC's material and lasers expertise is well known... my point was about the HDPE angle; even the Hindu report points out the Boron-based ceramics which again is known current/conventional technology and makes sense for Midhani's involvement given their previous contributions to Kanchan etc. The pic shows again a conventional concept - ceramic inserts in a sleeve... which perhaps has additional CNT coatings for toughness and wear protection (?). Its only the blogs talking about HDPE...which I would love to know more about.

[Karan M]

Basically HDPE sounds very similar to Dynema, which has been a Kevlar alternative, and around for a while. Its impervious to moisture (relatively) compared to Zylon and other alternatives. OFB was importing HDPE for its vests. These reports note up to 8 round stoppage (quite decent) and technology was developed locally (not import, assemble).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... an-kevlar/
https://sputniknews.com/amp/military/20 ... oof-vests/
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 173888.cms

BARC (search for kavach):
http://www.barc.gov.in/presentations/fddir17.pdf (TOT to Midhani)
http://www.barc.gov.in/presentations/fddir18.pdf (10 units made, tested)

[kit]

https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-india-needs-foreign-talent-to-indigenize-defence-equipment-11573408472457.html

Maybe he has a point, India has talent but sure can use friendly advise and consultation ... especially in jet engine development

[csaurabh]

India doesn''t produce any high end fibre. Not Carbon fiber nor aramids nor HDPE.
These are typically imported from companies like Teijin (Japan )

Tales about Midhani making carbon fibre and such like have been circulating for years. I have talked to people actually working in the company and they said that it is mostly hype, they can barely do metallurgy let alone fibre production.

It may be possible that they are doing some processing using fibres and resins to make BPJs , but that just makes them users of the raw material not producers.

[Karan M]

Why would Midhani make carbon fiber? They are a metals company. The fiber maker was supposed to be Kemrock in Gujarat.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemrock

BARC could have developed the tech to infuse CNT into the HDPE. They also make a point about being very experienced in Boron use, and manufacture. Are the hard plates being made in India?

[kit]

India doesn''t produce any high end fibre. Not Carbon fiber nor aramids nor HDPE.
These are typically imported from companies like Teijin (Japan )

Tales about Midhani making carbon fibre and such like have been circulating for years. I have talked to people actually working in the company and they said that it is mostly hype, they can barely do metallurgy let alone fibre production.

It may be possible that they are doing some processing using fibres and resins to make BPJs , but that just makes them users of the raw material not producers.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/indl-goods/svs/paper-/-wood-/-glass/-plastic/-marbles/kalam-commissions-indias-first-carbon-fibre-factory/articleshow/5909846.cms?from=mdr

Reliance makes HDPE ?

[Prasad]

Karan
Midhani is working with ISRO to make T800 class CC. Maraging steel replacement for launch vehicles. No word on progress so far.

[Varoon Shekhar]

Didn't NAL develop indigenous know-how in carbon fibre production many years ago? Or did I misread. . also i remember reading back in the 80s that DRDO together with a CSIR lab( NPL?) created the carbon composite heat shield. Perhaps what they mean was that they designed and fabricated it, not produced the fibre(?)

[Karan M]

Prasad, that's encouraging. If ISRO is involved, there is a solid funding stream and good likelihood of success.

[Karan M]

Didn't NAL develop indigenous know-how in carbon fibre production many years ago? Or did I misread. . also i remember reading back in the 80s that DRDO together with a CSIR lab( NPL?) created the carbon composite heat shield. Perhaps what they mean was that they designed and fabricated it, not produced the fibre(?)

That was the Kemrock project.

[Karan M]

India doesn''t produce any high end fibre. Not Carbon fiber nor aramids nor HDPE.
These are typically imported from companies like Teijin (Japan )

Tales about Midhani making carbon fibre and such like have been circulating for years. I have talked to people actually working in the company and they said that it is mostly hype, they can barely do metallurgy let alone fibre production.

It may be possible that they are doing some processing using fibres and resins to make BPJs , but that just makes them users of the raw material not producers.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/indl-goods/svs/paper-/-wood-/-glass/-plastic/-marbles/kalam-commissions-indias-first-carbon-fibre-factory/articleshow/5909846.cms?from=mdr

Reliance makes HDPE ?

Reliance purchased Kemrock which was making Carbon fiber.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... bre-market

Reliance Industries has acquired the assets of Gujarat-based Kemrock Industries & Exports Ltd. which will allow the company to manufacture composites including carbon fibre, a material whose global sales are expected to double by 2020.

Kemrock ran out of funds and was auctioned off to Reliance.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.economic ... 393617.cms

[Indranil]

Karan
Midhani is working with ISRO to make T800 class CC. Maraging steel replacement for launch vehicles. No word on progress so far.

This is very interesting news to me.

I knew that DRDO was interested in this for obvious reasons. But ISRO was not, because the technology had not matured to the level where making stages of the size that ISRO wanted was possible (except for PS4).

I trust your information and am genuinely happy to know this.

[csaurabh]

Reliance Kemrock's carbon fiber mfg is still not operational as of September. It was discussed in INCCOM conference which I attended.
Btw Kemrock's technology was developed by NAL. What I have heard is that the process works but it is not cost effective.

Carbon composite heat shields are made in India ( by ISRO, DRDO ). The raw materials are not.

[Varoon Shekhar]

So was Kemrock's capacity lying idle since the plant was commissioned in 2010( with tech from NAL). And it didn't produce anything between 2010-2018 for DRDO, ISRO et al?

[wig]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 59684.html

DRDO grants free patent access to boost indigenous production

To boost indigenous production and give a fillip to the ‘Make in India’ policy, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has decided to grant the Indian industry free access to patents held for technologies developed by it.
A new policy formulated by the DRDO recently states that no licence fee or royalty will be applicable on the use of Indian patents held by the research agency. There are hundreds of such patents covering missile technology, aeronautics, naval systems, life sciences, armaments, combat engineering, electronics and communication material.

[csaurabh]

I haven't ever heard of Kemrock producing Carbon fibre in large quantities. At least no composite manufacturer I know uses them.
Also to be noted that BPJs would probably need high grade phenolic resins, which are not made in India either.

What is meant by Midhani making BPJ is probably that they take the sheets of HDPE , infuse the resin, do heat treatment etc. in the manner prescribed by BARC/DRDO/etc. Composite equivalent of screw-drivering. Midhani makes official statements from time to time that they are going to manufacture fibre, but it is all hot air. very overhyped company, whatever they have achieved is mainly due to technology transfer from ISRO, not their own research.

[csaurabh]

DISC 3 challenges announced at Defconnect

https://inc42.com/buzz/govt-launches-de ... nnovation/

Defence minister Rajnath Singh, on November 11, announced the third phase of Defence India Startup Challenge (DISC), which is a part of Innovations for Defence Excellence (iDEX), to boost innovation in the defence sector.

iDEX aims to recognise and harness talent among the Indian youth, MSMEs, startups and fast emerging private sector, Rajnath Singh added while speaking at the event.

Through this programme, the government plans to cut down on defence spending and utilise Indian talent by encouraging startups and small and medium enterprises (SMEs) to come up with innovative solutions for the challenges faced by armed forces.

Related Article: Govt Launches Defence India Startup Challenge To Close Ranks With Indian Startups, Disrupt Sector

The government is currently seeking approval for INR 500 Cr to fund 250 startups and find 50 innovations in the next five years, said Subhash Chandra, secretary of the department of defence production.

Out of the total number of applications the government receives, it will shortlist approximately 28. The selected startups and businesses will have to work on solving three challenges from defence forces — Army, Navy and Air Force.

DISC is a joint initiative between the Department of Industrial Policy and Promotion (DIPP), Atal Innovation Mission and the Defence Innovation Organisation. Meanwhile, iDEX was announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi during the DefExpo held in April 2018.

The first phase of DISC was launched in August 2018. The selected startups were awarded up to INR 1.5 Cr in the form of grants, equity, debt and other relevant structures. In addition, the government also incubated and mentored these startups. The winners included Individual Protection System, See Through Armour and Carbon Fibre Winding, among others.

The second phase of the challenge was launched in January 2019. The second edition was launched four problem statements, for which each participant had to present a solution. The winner from this batch included GPS Anti Jam Device, Data Analytics for Air Trajectory, Illegal usage of Drones and RADAR – IQ Signal Generator.

In the previous phases, 28 startups were shortlisted. These startups got the grants for prototype development and possible commercialisation

We were finalists in this contest last year but didn't win. We will apply again this year.

[Karan M]

I haven't ever heard of Kemrock producing Carbon fibre in large quantities. At least no composite manufacturer I know uses them.
Also to be noted that BPJs would probably need high grade phenolic resins, which are not made in India either.

Well, if the company was in financial straits and has only been procured recently by Reliance, how will its process be either cost-effective or widely used. Both often (not always) go hand-in-hand. Even a relatively cost-effective process, may often need economy of scale for the company to offer it widely, and yet make a profit. Otherwise it will run a loss and go into debt, and be financially non-viable. The important part is the process works and if the manpower has not been lost, Reliance's support may be enough to make a difference.

What is meant by Midhani making BPJ is probably that they take the sheets of HDPE , infuse the resin, do heat treatment etc. in the manner prescribed by BARC/DRDO/etc. Composite equivalent of screw-drivering. Midhani makes official statements from time to time that they are going to manufacture fibre, but it is all hot air. very overhyped company, whatever they have achieved is mainly due to technology transfer from ISRO, not their own research.

This is not "screw-drivering". Screw drivering is CKD/SKD assembly, the items come in kit form and all you do is just put them together without even processing the raw materials and adding any sort of significant value, this is manufacturing with partly imported raw materials, not cent per cent indigenous but still a substantial step up from merely importing complete HDPE body armor and merely sewing it into jackets like other manufacturers have done so far in India. We have been so far, merely importing Dyneema, Kevlar, Boron hard plates from Du Pont etc, sewing them into jackets.

Midhani's existence/work predates its association with ISRO, and includes many items being made purely for defense and strategic sectors, with programs going on with DRDO and other orgs beyond ISRO. They serve a very useful aim as a strategic niche player for bulk (not lab) manufacture of key alloys and materials which purely commercial, corporate arms of private/public sector companies will not touch because of the fear of sanctions/legal issues as those that occurred in 1999. This limited focus requires substantial funding even so, to maintain capex and the capability beyond commercial success and they have been struggling with that for a long while because of GOI's challenges regarding funding of strat programs.

[JayS]

I haven't ever heard of Kemrock producing Carbon fibre in large quantities. At least no composite manufacturer I know uses them.
Also to be noted that BPJs would probably need high grade phenolic resins, which are not made in India either.

Well, if the company was in financial straits and has only been procured recently by Reliance, how will its process be either cost-effective or widely used. Both often (not always) go hand-in-hand. Even a relatively cost-effective process, may often need economy of scale for the company to offer it widely, and yet make a profit. Otherwise it will run a loss and go into debt, and be financially non-viable. The important part is the process works and if the manpower has not been lost, Reliance's support may be enough to make a difference.

Reliance's support it not the only thing here (if I understand correctly you mean the monetary support). Theoretically speaking,It is but natural for Reliance to diversify in this field given their background in Petrochemicals and in textile. Add to that Mota Bhai's ability to mobilise capital (money and political), Reliance is well placed to become a major global supplier in Carbon Fibre and pre-preg sheets manufacturing, if they can leverage their inhouse technical expertise and capability to scale up.

But the big question is of Market. To prime the pump, GOI needs to provide the initial volume for a few years. Reliance can then foray in the global supply chain from there. Future prospects are good on paper. They would hold a monopoly on Indian market for time to come as entry barrier to this business is rather high and with one powerful player in the field, hardly anyone will want to compete.