India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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Vips
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 18 Mar 2020 21:27

OFB exports its newly developed 52-calibre barrels to Bofors.

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which is celebrating its 219th foundation day on Wednesday, has exported its newly developed 52-calibre barrel for 155 mm artillery guns to Bofors Test Center, its chairman Hari Mohan said.

He said that OFB has exported two 52-calibre barrels to Swedish arms manufacturer Bofors AB, from which it had imported 155 mm howitzer guns in the mid-80s.

"We have made a prototype which is truck-chassis mounted," Mohan told newspersons here. In the last 14-15 years, the OFB has done "immense progress" in the field of high-calibre barrels, be it for tanks, medium and heavy artillery guns, and the barrel of Dhanush artillary gun has been indigenously developed, he said.

"Now we are embarking upon a barrel further increasing it to 52-calibre. The range of 155 mm Dhanush gun is 38 km. The Bofors gun barrel is 39-calibre, while that of Dhanush is 45-calibre," he said.

Mohan said the OFB has already designed and manufactured 52-calibre barrel, an important component of a full-fledged gun, and mounted one on a truck."We have exported these to Bofors and 52-calibre barrels have been taken by its test centre, which is using these for validation of 155 mm ammunitions being developed by global OEMs," he said.

More than 150 rounds of shells have been fired from these 52-calibre barrels, he said. "The barrel is behaving better than expected and the Bofors Test Center is extremely happy," he said. Apart from the barrel, Bofors is also taking the breech mechanism and muzzle brakes and all the three are being used, he said on Tuesday.

"We indigenously developed the technology for 155mm/52-calibre barrels and exported these to Bofors Test Center," OFB chairman
said. He said the OFB, which had initially handed over six Dhanush artillery guns to the Indian Army, will, in a few weeks, supply another six
such guns.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 20 Mar 2020 06:36

HAPP coming up with new project.

The Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project (HAPP), a defence establishment here, is poised to start a new FSAPDS (Fin Stabilised Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) ammunition hardware project code-named ‘mango.’

The infrastructure for the new project is being created on the premises of HAPP that has so far manufactured ammunition hardware 120mm FSAPDS for Arjun tank among other products. Currently, the 125mm FSAPDS meant for firing with Depth of Penetration of 515 to 550 mm through T-72A and T-90S Bhishma tank barrels is undergoing trials. The product was developed through in-house Research and Development activities, Yadvendra Somra, General Manager, HAPP, told media persons on the sidelines of the photo exhibition conducted on Wednesday as part of Ordnance Factories' Day celebration.

As for the FSAPDS ‘mango’ project, the new ammunition hardware with additional lethal features will be manufactured from the next financial year, Mr. Somra said.

A new indent has been placed by the Indian Navy for manufacture of 800 units of RGB (Rocket Guided Bomb) 60 anti-submarine rockets per year. The RGB 60 with extended range was also developed in-house in collaboration with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratory at Pune. The production will commence in four months, Mr. Somra said.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2020 15:57

Russia is making Svinets rounds for its own T-series tanks and we are stuck with 1986 DOI "Mango" with a DOP of around 550 odd mm, because the tank gun on our T-90s can't handle anything more, and the IA is busy buying more of the aforesaid T-90s. The reliance on expensive ATGMs as tank killers is something even the rich westerners don't do, but hey, here we are.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2020 19:11

Standing Committee on Defence, March 2020

Akash Weapon System (AWS) has gone through various flight trials.

Phase-1 (Till 2007), which was focused on development of Weapon System has seen nearly 67 flight trials to prove the Akash Missile Capability (AMC).

In phase-2 (2007-2016) nearly 43 flight trials were conducted, which consists of User Evaluation Trials, Post Induction Trials, User Exploitation Trials.

Recently, Indian Air Force has conducted trials in Suryalanka (October-2018), where Akash Weapon System has participated along with other Weapon Systems and 5 out of 5 successful target interceptions were demonstrated.

Lakshya is a Pilotless Target Aircraft (PTA) designed and developed by DRDO, that is used to test fire Surface-to-Air and Air-to-Air Missiles. This is being used regularly by DRDO and Armed Forces.

During these trials, Akash Weapon System performance was best among all participating Weapon Systems.

“Vayu-Shakti” trials were conducted by Indian Air Force in February 2019 at Pokharan Range and final demonstration on 16th February 2019 which was witnessed by all VIP dignitaries, where Akash Weapon System was deployed in war like scenario for 10 continuous days.

During these trials, complete Weapon System capabilities were demonstrated to Chiefs of Armed Forces along with other VIPs and 4 out of 4 successful interceptions of target were achieved. It was live telecast on National News along with live feed on internet platforms.


25 II. Flight trial Details of ASTRA (Sukhoi): Astra is the first BVR (Beyond Visual Range) Air-to-Air Missile developed by DRDO.

The Platform for Weapon System is Sukhoi SU-30 MKI. Astra Weapon System has completed the development trials successfully in September 2019 from Air Force Station (AFS), Kalai Konda (KKD) at Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur. Banshee (Pilotless Test Aircraft) designed and developed by DRDO was used as target for trials.

A few development and user trials were carried out for different ranges to validate the required performance criteria.

Indian Air Force (IAF) has accepted the System for induction.

The development of the Akash and Astra Weapon Systems (AWS) has established base for various critical technologies in the country. These would be of immense use in boosting the Defence Capabilities of the Nation.

The following are the salient features:  Induction of Akash Air Defence System (AADS) in Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian Army (IA) has strengthened the National Air Defence Grid (ADG) to target hostile intruding Aircraft(s). In the process of developing Akash, DRDO has evolved numerous technologies that will help in further developing more potent Surface-to-Air Guided Missiles.

In the course of development of Akash Weapon System, DRDO has established a technological base in the country, where multiple systems were produced by different Public Sector Undertakings (PSUs) along with Private Industries and more than 100 Micro Small Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) with lead integrator delivering as a single Weapon System to Users.

Astra is a very potent Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Missile in the 100 km range class with good Electronic Counter Counter Measure (ECCM). Installation of Astra on Su-30 greatly enhances the operational capabilities of Su-30 Aircraft(s). The Missile will also be integrated on other fighters of IAF in due course.

Improved version of Astra with enhanced-kill-range and no-escape-zone are now under development.

Fructification of these Missiles will help IAF to use indigenous Air-to-Air- Missiles with higher stand-off.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 20 Mar 2020 19:15

Indian Army

$3.36 Billion of orders domestically
Indigenization8. The Ministry of Defence informed the Committee that during the year 2018-19 and current year 2019-20 (upto 31.12.2019), out of the total 22 contracts signed, 12 contracts were signed with the Indian vendors for capital procurement of defence equipment such as bullet proof jackets, electronic fuses, Light Strike Vehicles, FAT, EW System, TI Sights, Bridges for Indian Army.

The expenditure on Capital acquisitions for Army during 2018-19 and 2019-20, on indigenous contracts was Rs. 16,896.59 crore and Rs. 8,366.63 crore (upto December,2019) respectively.

The Committee note that after completion of three quarters of 2019-20, only Rs. 8,366.63 crore had been spent on indigenous procurement which is only about half of the FY 2018-19.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby mody » 21 Mar 2020 14:45

Karan M wrote:Russia is making Svinets rounds for its own T-series tanks and we are stuck with 1986 DOI "Mango" with a DOP of around 550 odd mm, because the tank gun on our T-90s can't handle anything more, and the IA is busy buying more of the aforesaid T-90s. The reliance on expensive ATGMs as tank killers is something even the rich westerners don't do, but hey, here we are.



I guess thats probably becuase the Russians shafted us by not parting with the technology to make the T90 barrels, as part of the ToT and we fell back on making barrels as per the old T72 tech. The older tech barrels cannot take newer rounds and hence we alos import the Russian Mango round in the thousands. The current effort seems to be develop our own slightly imrpoved version of the Mango round.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Mar 2020 03:31

The T-90S barrels cannot take higher pressure rounds. Neither the imports or those locally made.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby mody » 23 Mar 2020 13:30

Karan M wrote:The T-90S barrels cannot take higher pressure rounds. Neither the imports or those locally made.


The Russian's are using the new ammo with the 2A46M5 gun with the T72B3/B3M upgrade program.

Even our T72s are supposed to be upgraded with the domestically made V92S2 engines. We need to upgrade the gun, fire control software, ballistic computer and ammunition on our T90S tanks.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby kit » 23 Mar 2020 17:44

This is probably a good time to go shopping for foreign technology companies, what about aircraft engine manufacturers ?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby arvin » 23 Mar 2020 17:58

Ask EUROJET to set up manufacturing in India for EJ200. Will eliminate the dependency on F414.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby VKumar » 23 Mar 2020 21:34

Yes, indeed lets buy some key defence technologies starting with a jet engine.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 24 Mar 2020 01:39

The Kalyanis and Adanis are in a look out to buy mode but no matter how much we are ready to invest for buying, the respective governments abroad will never allow anybody to lay their hands on critical technology.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 24 Mar 2020 06:13

India today newsmen were given exclusive exposure to the LCH.

https://www.indiatoday.in/programme/bat ... 2020-03-22

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby agupta » 26 Mar 2020 03:58

This doesnt engender much sympathy from me. Notice how conveniently this table has no row for "Costs" ? No mention of SG&A costs or %ages. Its actually quite common for companies to finance their normal operations with Debt or Commercial paper ... and Debt/Equity ratio is a very common metric used to judge management effectiveness.

Quick Google search shows HALs D/E < 0.5 and substantially smaller than say Tata Motors. Not an expert, but I've seen ~1.0 or higher to be quite common for large (publicly-held) aerospace companies

The gravy train of having captive customers whose orders and funds could be had "in time" but deliverables staggered over 10 yrs after payment, while collecting "Ratna" awards for paying high dividends has ended; professional management ( forced by privatization & corporatization) is the need of the hour. Part of this transition will be to move away from an "industrial MNREGA" type setup to an agile distributed but well-trained, well-hired and highly productive workforce and management.

We accept quietly that a Su-30 produced "fully indigenously from raw materials" is STILL much more expensive than a Russian one with a 3X cost advantage AFTER a production run that should've been sufficient to amortize any initial CAPEX investments...would love to see someone dig thru' that one !

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2020 04:38

Agupta ji,

I am going to bite this time.

1. Last time you insinuated that LCH must have some deficiencies and that is why no orders are being placed. I asked you to name one and got no reply. Could you find a problem? Because I talked to Rudra pilots and forget having problems, they love it! LCH is SIGNIFICANTLY better attack heli than Rudra.

2. Now you have moved to a new suggestion: just take the loans and manufacture those LCHs for God knows when the GoI will place orders! Right now, ordered ALHs are waiting on tarmac for payment and delivery. Add LCHs to that lot? Any precedent that you can show where companies you know are doing that. For example, did Dassault start building Rafales for IAF as soon as it won the MMRCA competition? Has Tata started building Kestrels?

3. Per unit costs of 128 Rafales to be assembled from SKDs and CKDs from Reliance was much more expensive than per unit cost of 36 Rafales built at Dassault. Why? Reliance is the paragon of private industry in India!

Yes, HAL has problems of a DPSU. But, please don't assign fault where there is none. HAL's rotary division is really doing well, both in developing new products and keeping up production schedules of received orders.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby agupta » 26 Mar 2020 04:53

Good :)

First an apology - my "reply" was meant to respond to a different post of yours with the HAL revenues table - not the LCH link. Sorry not sure what I screwed up. (Broadsword, March 17)

So clarifications - never meant to link Debt to LCH production. You'll see earlier writings my respect for the Rotorcraft division; its the HAL Aircraft Div that I lack confidence in. Taking on Debt for funding normal ops incl. R&D is normal business practice. I agree no-one will launch serial production without an order.

You're conflating (LCH) Product design deficiencies vs. Project & Procurement related issues. I have never said or believed there are issues with LCH PRODUCT. We have allusions to DPP-related milestones (whatever that means) from HVT/Twitter (an HAL employee) and an "exhortation" from the IAF Chief asking to get some value-chain aspects of done so orders can be processed. So clearly there seem to be some items missing ...that have nothing to do with LCH the flying machine at least, if not the complete weapon system.

So I would LOVE to get a factual and open understanding of WHY LCH orders are not forthcoming ? Has HAL hit and delivered on all project deliverables, DPP expectations (non-trivial) that they committed to ? What exactly is the hold-up ? I for one, don't believe the gap has anything to do with the Apache delivery - as I understand it, they have different niches/roles and are to be seen as independent procurement efforts on separate tracks.

Optically and morale wise - it sucks of course; but I take HAL's very strong silence as evidence of either (a) Heli division's values (good) or (b) some delivery gap or (c) some of both. Because HAL has had stinky public leaks with much weaker positions

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2020 05:37

HAL cannot do anything if the country does not have the will to buy desi products on priority. Money has to be made available for Apaches first. Not in parallel, but first for Apache. After that if money remains, then may be more Apaches, otherwise may be some LCH. If you leave the lip service aside this is truth! The cost of 15 LCH's is less than 5 Apaches. We have signed for 30+ Apaches already.

LCH's full flight envelop has been tested and certified. The only thing that is untested is ATGMs. And that is not HAL's problem. It will integrate ANY ATGM that GoI, Army asks it to. Right now, the ask is to get Helina onboard. LCH as a platform is ready whenever the weapon is ready. Rudras have already fired it. Helina and Nag kept struggling with the sensors. I cannot tell you about the step motherly treatment that Nag has faced in this open forum. I can tell you this much what Nag will clear this year in summer, is yet to be matched by any imported maal which is IIR-based. By the way Nag is developed by RCI which is the same agency which can develop a Shakti ASAT missile in 3 years from conception to test firing whose end game is IIR-based. So, you be the judge. Enough said on a public forum.

I mean think about it. It has all the tried and tested rotables and LRUs. It has better vibration qualities than the Dhruv. This latest Dhruv crash was a testament to its crash worthy design. What am I missing?

Hari Nair is here. And there is nobody else closer to the machine. You can ask anybody around you for a problem with LCH. Post it here. Deejay is here. Raghuk is here. Aaap pucho toh sahi!!! You have assumed something must be wrong!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 26 Mar 2020 06:03

agupta orders have to come from GOI.
As IR said the priority is to get the Apaches.
Could be LCH will be ordered to set up the factory production at a low rate.
But COVID related expenditures are a damper.
What I hear is there is a queue amongst helicopter pilots to get to Apache flights.

Hope similar zeal is shown for LCH.

One question for hari saar:
What is the vibration level in the LCH for the pilot?

One of my college mates told me about pilot attrition due to vibration in helicopter stream.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 26 Mar 2020 13:43

agupta wrote:We accept quietly that a Su-30 produced "fully indigenously from raw materials" is STILL much more expensive than a Russian one with a 3X cost advantage AFTER a production run that should've been sufficient to amortize any initial CAPEX investments...would love to see someone dig thru' that one !


The part in bold is mistaken. We made only some 60 odd Su-30s in Phase 4. All the rest were CKD/SKD or Phase 3 (SKD w/some indigenization). The investment in localization will eventually pay off in spares and long term sustainment.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Picklu » 30 Mar 2020 01:38

It is not just Apaches. Be it Rafales or S400, it appears that the P5 have the first right on our defense capex.

Not sure what's the critical short coming for which we are held by our curlies. Because, it is hard to believe that all politicians from all sides of the spectrum are equally traitor and corrupt.

So, it must be some kind of strategic compulsion to pay "hafta" in the guise of defense capex. No other sane explanation.


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