India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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Vips
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Vips »

Anadrone Systems to set up R&D centre in Odisha.

Anadrone Systems, an Odisha-based target drone manufacturer has announced setting up R&D centre for sophisticated drones in Odisha. The company’s Managing Director, Anant Bhalotia, made this commitment during the ‘Odisha Make-In-India Conclave 2022’.

The news comes as a strategic expansion move right after the company bagged the contract to supply 125 Manoeuvrable Expendable Aerial Targets (MEAT) and associated equipment worth Rs 96 crore to the Indian Army and Air Force, earlier this year.

The new R&D centre will have capabilities to develop futuristic target drones such as subsonic and supersonic targets. Its primary objective will be to become an all-encompassing destination for indigenous drones that will meet national requirements, thereby reducing the import burden on the Indian economy.

The said plant will be up and running within six months to provide drone solutions for the domestic armed forces and export requirements. The new set-up will simultaneously incur revenue for the state as well as will offer diverse employment opportunities to the people of Odisha.

Commenting on the objective behind the announcement, Bhalotia said, “With this new plant, our effort is to become the leading partner to the defence forces in its test and evaluation of sophisticated weapons and systems, and to maximise indigenisation..”

Bhalotia also lauded the Government of Odisha for encouraging entrepreneurs and promoting the indigenous defence manufacturing sector in their state. Anadrone Systems has been manufacturing drones for a decade and their recent collaboration with the UK-based defence-tech company has enabled the manufacturer to be the force behind the validation and induction of various SAM, AAM, Radars & other weapons to the Ministry of Defence.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

VinodTK
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by VinodTK »

DRDO didn’t achieve all objectives in 20 projects, listed them successful: CAG
Some of these ‘mission mode’ projects were declared successful by DRDO but taken up again as new ones to realise the unachieved objectives of the projects closed earlier, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) said in the report tabled in Parliament on Wednesday.
‘Mission mode’ projects refer to high-priority DRDO projects based on specific user requirements with a fixed deadline for their completion, and pivot on technologies already available, proven and accessible within India or from abroad at short notice.
CAG said in 119 of the 178 projects, the original time schedule could not be adhered to; in 49 cases, the additional time taken was more than 100% of the original time-frame, and the overall delays ranged from 16% to 500%, with time extension sought on multiple occasions.

“Time overruns in completion of MM (multi mission) projects, where technologies are either available or easily accessible, defeat the purpose of taking them up as MM projects,” CAG said. The report said despite such projects having a very high outcome certainty due to ready availability of underlying technology, there were considerable delays in initiation and sanction by DRDO.

There were also projects, worth hundreds of crores, that were declared successful but fell short of parameters. “Out of 86 projects declared successful during 2010-2019, in 20 projects involving an expenditure of ₹1,074.67 crore, one or more key objective(s)/parameter(s) was/were not achieved,” the report said.

CAG added that instead of seeking time extension to achieve the objectives, these projects were closed as successful. It said DRDO took up 15 projects worth ₹516.61 crore to accomplish the unachieved objectives of projects closed earlier after declaring them successful.


The report touched upon inefficiencies in planning while flagging concerns about inadequate monitoring by DRDO.
“The inefficiencies in overall project management have resulted in several instances of cost overruns, over-assessment of anticipated benefits of projects, and delay in submission of closure reports.”

Other issues highlighted in the report included delay in productionisation of successful projects, and lack of synergy between DRDO and the services, which resulted in divergent views on qualitative requirements, deliverables and outcome of user trials. “This affected the overall success rate of the MM projects,” CAG added.

If the CAG findings are true the responsible DRDO officers should criminally prosecuted for defrauding the nation and their benefits / pensions terminated.
Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Then nothing will get developed in this country apart from low risk screwdriver tech. In most cases reqmts are world class and subsystem providers from both pvt and public sectors struggle to match reqmts, till 2-3 iterations are completed. CAG doesn't look into the tech aspect all. It's been a good game. Set crazy reqmts which domestic industry struggles to meet. Set high indigenization benchmarks. Get the product stuck in endless trials. Then claim it didn't meet timelines. Push for emergency import or a screwdrivered foreign product as Make in India.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by RoyG »

Karan M wrote:Then nothing will get developed in this country apart from low risk screwdriver tech. In most cases reqmts are world class and subsystem providers from both pvt and public sectors struggle to match reqmts, till 2-3 iterations are completed. CAG doesn't look into the tech aspect all. It's been a good game. Set crazy reqmts which domestic industry struggles to meet. Set high indigenization benchmarks. Get the product stuck in endless trials. Then claim it didn't meet timelines. Push for emergency import or a screwdrivered foreign product as Make in India.
Exactly what I've been saying. The game is rigged from the beginning. This is why they lobbied for emergency procurement clause. They need to open a new channel to continue the abuse.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

A lot of the babu lobby is also involved in this game. It's no coincidence this CAG report is released to time with the attempt by the same lobby to wrest the DRDO Chiefs dual responsibilities away from him claiming it will lead to better efficiency etc. One of theirs is to pick up that SA slot now or it will be given to some figurehead from the pvt sector whose task is to open up the lucrative procurement bonanza to the screwdriver Make in India programs. All we've done in that case is move the screwdriver from the DPSUs to the pvt sector with the willing collaboration of those who oppose the above technologically complex programs claiming they don't deliver on time etc.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiat ... 2022-12-13
Traditionally, the DRDO chief has held the post of secretary-R&D in addition to the post of scientific advisor to the defence minister. The Prime minister’s Office (PMO) is spearheading the change, which is aimed at achieving better efficiency and ease of functioning of the DRDO. However, some believe it’s an attempt by the ‘IAS lobby’ to take control of the premier defence research agency and maintain its supremacy in MoD.

“Bifurcating the post of DRDO chairman and secretary-R&D appears to be the need of the hour as the DRDO’s track record of meeting project deadlines has not been up to the mark. With lesser responsibility, the DRDO chairman will be able to devote more time and energy on defence programmes,” said a senior MoD official, adding that the success of any defence project depends on finance, utilisation of manpower and efficient movement of file within the bureaucracy.


Here's what these CAG jokers and their supporters don't realize, or wish to obfuscate, even when a mission mode program runs into heavy winds and gets delayed, the real benefit is in the follow on programs which turn out well, unless they too are sought to be sabotaged by endless trials. That's because the mission mode programs develop technology that develops what is existing further to demanding requirements and also fixes the production aspect. Mere tech availability is not production readiness or a service viable supply chain.

For instance thanks to the Astra now you've VLSRSAM, NGARM, QRSAM, Akash 1S and other programs which all benefit from the original program. None of these would be around if you'd just screwdrivered an imported AAM like R77 or ASRAAM Meteor or whatever.

What our new "give the pvt sector everything", scrap DRDO lobby now wants to do is sabotage this effort which has literally taken decades to build and get right. It will sabotage the attempt to develop subsystem level competence at multiple small scale DRDO partners in the pvt sector and the DPSUs who actually do things as versus land sweetheart deals with imported tech from abroad. The big guys are all involved in the latter.

The Mission Mode programs are being targeted with specific reference as they stand on the way of screwdriver Make in India assembly programs like the K-9 and others which don't result in IP transfer or significant benefits to local industry.

Sadly, the lobby has already succeeded in ensuring crucial desi programs don't get funded on time or enough and then turn around and say, look, delays.

The DRDO budget is *abysmal* given the tasks expected of them, a joke by worldwide standards. Even with PPP etc factored in, it doesn't meet our needs across key programs. Delays are a given given the constraints they have been literally forced to manage with.


Then there is this Govts inability or unwillingness to spend on defence given it's electoral requirements/social welfare/ mindset /priorities. They want to move as much cost to the pvt sector under Make 2. This is nothing but screwdriver Giri as there is no incentive for pvt sector to pick up programs and do R&D without assured orders.

The Pvt industry wants to be funded for Make 1, but there is noone around to audit their claims. And they prefer it that way. Our pvt drone industry currently is but Aliexpress and Alibababa per one gent who had a chance to look at some of the so called "innovations" being touted as efficient. Look at DEFSYS and how it was thriving till it got caught up in a prior UPA deals shenanigans. The entire UPA ecosystem just changed it's name, creating an image of being pvt sector innovators .

Now the DRDO head will lose a lot of access to the RM as his position as SA to RM will also be lost. This will further move the needle to disassociating the R&D aspect from our MIC.


Tejas Mk1A deal was delayed to the point of absurdity to save funds. No funds were released till it was almost at the verge of supplier walk away. Then the Tejas Mk2 was delayed. AMCA is yet to be funded. DRDO budget has remained all but static, considering inflation and supply issues, program complexity increases, lack of available infra.

And all that's occurred is moving the needle from an all powerful DPSU lobby to a pvt lobby now, both of whom just want easy assured orders and will do very little core R&D. The core programs where the much vaunted pvt sector like Tata and BF are involved show how hard making stuff really is. Look at ATAGS, endless trials. No orders yet. And IA was lobbying for ATHOS claiming price.

For a Govt that came in claiming it would change things, they've been played like a fiddle by the very set of folks who ran the setup all these years. For every one step they take forward, another backward when it comes to MIC devpt.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by VinodTK »

Karan M wrote:
For a Govt that came in claiming it would change things, they've been played like a fiddle by the very set of folks who ran the setup all these years. For every one step they take forward, another backward when it comes to MIC devpt.
+100%
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

I agree to remove the DRDO chief as Scientific Advisor to the RM.
Most DRDO chiefs are engineers and far removed from Science.

The early SA were good as they came from a Science background.

THE PMO chairs the three science panels: ISRO, BARC, and DRDO. for the last few years.
They see the quality of the discussion.

Not everything that DRDO does is state-of-the-art cutting-edge.
They took five years to come up with a camouflage covering for frontline use.
And invoke OSA to cut off reviews.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

KaranM Do we have link to that CAG report?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramdas »

From what I read the DRDO chief (Dr. Samir Kamat) currently does not hold the position of scientific advisor to RM (Dr. Sateesh Reddy holds that as of now). What the IAS babus are trying to grab from the DRDO chief is the position of secretary-R&D. Hopefully, they fail: a person without an active engineering background would be ill suited for such a post at such a level. The scientific advisor to the RM should be from a DRDO background as is currently the case, even if the post remains different from that of DRDO chief. The recent CAG report (like most CAG reports) appears to be nitpicking by accountants who have no understanding of what R&D entails.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

Do you have link to the CAG report?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by csaurabh »

Karan M wrote:Then nothing will get developed in this country apart from low risk screwdriver tech. In most cases reqmts are world class and subsystem providers from both pvt and public sectors struggle to match reqmts, till 2-3 iterations are completed. CAG doesn't look into the tech aspect all. It's been a good game. Set crazy reqmts which domestic industry struggles to meet. Set high indigenization benchmarks. Get the product stuck in endless trials. Then claim it didn't meet timelines. Push for emergency import or a screwdrivered foreign product as Make in India.
Exactly, this CAG auditor and associated fools don't seem to realize that you cannot fix strict costs or timeline requirements for products under development. Imported products which are already developed can be fixed at specific costs and timelines- now, when they are already developed. During their development process they would have incurred much more expenses and delays, infact much more than DRDO.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by YashG »

When products that go into induction, teams involved in developing, prototyping and testing should be given a monetary benefit proportional to the size of the initial contract. The only problem will be to fix up contributions - which isnt a big deal. But this would mean that teams that work on the projects have a skin in the game to defend the project till its induction.

If our defence scientists, researchers make some extra moolah, i will be happy - they deserve it. Lots of pvt sector folks make a lot more. This would be nothing for their desh seva.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Gyan »

I have a feeling that this is a step towards increasing involvement of Pvt sector in R&D. DRDO will no longer have sole claim to R&D funds.

DRDO also has some inexplicable delays in projects Eg Nirbhay & Rustom-2.

Indian Pvt sector has 100+ flying designs of UAVs, compare that to HAL NRUV program, dead in water since 2008

Tonbo thermal imagers are better screw driven than BEL relabelling.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

ramana wrote:I agree to remove the DRDO chief as Scientific Advisor to the RM.
Most DRDO chiefs are engineers and far removed from Science.

The early SA were good as they came from a Science background.
Come on sir, the DRDO chief deals with applied science and has hands on awareness of the topic. The SA to the RM needs to be a qualified individual, not some pie in the sky academic or one with vested interests from the prvt sector interested in pushing his agenda on the ministry. The DRDO is the only organization in India that is handling a core technology roadmap. Not a single DPSU or large prvt firm is interested in end to end subsystem development, in fact its the small ones doing real innovation with DRDO's assistance or funding. The DRDO is also the only one handling the effort of making every widget possible inhouse. Left to the rest we would be importing even screws and calling it local. That's what was done by the DPSU earlier & is now being done by many in the pvt sector now while they tout their privilge and access to the GOI.
THE PMO chairs the three science panels: ISRO, BARC, and DRDO. for the last few years.
They see the quality of the discussion.
What quality of discussion can the PMO judge R sir, if the Indian bureaucracy is staffed with generalists. Plus where are these discussions hosted for the public to evaluate and judge the quality. The PMO itself is completely opaque. We dont even have MOD AR released anymore. What kind of transparency and quality of discussions are we expected to observe if the PMO itself is not sharing any information on what its plans are. The data on the other hand speaks for itself. Funds allocated to R&D are all but flat. The defence budget likewise, with capex limited. Programs like Agniveer are introduced without adequate discussion of pros & cons, especially for technical personnel. Gen PR Shankar has posted an entire series on it. At what point is the public expected to stand up and say, more transparency would be appreciated. The whole situation is beyond bizarre given our threat perception, yet defense is taken for granted. Am not even sure at this point whether we are even at parity wrt Pak in key areas, let alone dominance in a two front scenario.
Not everything that DRDO does is state-of-the-art cutting-edge.
They took five years to come up with a camouflage covering for frontline use.
And invoke OSA to cut off reviews.
Which camouflage covering and of which kind is the question. Multispectral camouflage is where a handful of firms specialize in it.
DRDO or for that matter any scientific R&D agency has not received its due both under this Govt or ones past. R&D is regarded as an avoidable expense. Meanwhile PRC, US, west take it as core to their advancement.

If you dont invest in R&D then you will not get any equipment or advancement let alone state of the art gear. In fact its surprising that they are running these programs on the skeleton budget that they do get. Flip side, delays, rob peter to pay paul sort of issues.

We are investing the absolute bare minimum in defence and are now defanging the one unit which stood steadfast against imports all this while by removing that organizations access to the RM.

Now all we will have is a set of orgs whose heads have to jump through hoops to get access to the RM.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

csaurabh wrote:
Karan M wrote:Then nothing will get developed in this country apart from low risk screwdriver tech. In most cases reqmts are world class and subsystem providers from both pvt and public sectors struggle to match reqmts, till 2-3 iterations are completed. CAG doesn't look into the tech aspect all. It's been a good game. Set crazy reqmts which domestic industry struggles to meet. Set high indigenization benchmarks. Get the product stuck in endless trials. Then claim it didn't meet timelines. Push for emergency import or a screwdrivered foreign product as Make in India.
Exactly, this CAG auditor and associated fools don't seem to realize that you cannot fix strict costs or timeline requirements for products under development. Imported products which are already developed can be fixed at specific costs and timelines- now, when they are already developed. During their development process they would have incurred much more expenses and delays, infact much more than DRDO.
Exactly & its a good game to rig the game against DRDO & all the associated small scale pvt & other contributors whom DRDO farms out iterative subsystem development to. Now, the big ticket private firms will bag lucrative contracts with zero transparency about what exactly was their local contribution and where & how they got their technology from.

I have been looking far & wide for data on several such "desi" pvt firms and their contracts.

No CAG audit, no Govt report on how much of their hardware is actually local, who are the suppliers. All a black hole. And these chaps talk about efficiency and transparency.

The biggest risk is that it will kill long term subsystem development. Multiple DRDO programs use common subsystems and modules from a handful of suppliers which they are always seeking to increase, so that even 1-2 programs cancelled by services/whimsy/budget/sqr etc still dont affect the modules from going into production.

Now we will have a dozen screwdriver models in play, each with zero commonality & dependent on build to print.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Gyan wrote:I have a feeling that this is a step towards increasing involvement of Pvt sector in R&D. DRDO will no longer have sole claim to R&D funds.

DRDO also has some inexplicable delays in projects Eg Nirbhay & Rustom-2.

Indian Pvt sector has 100+ flying designs of UAVs, compare that to HAL NRUV program, dead in water since 2008

Tonbo thermal imagers are better screw driven than BEL relabelling.
The Indian pvt sectors's 100's of flying designs of UAVs are full of parts, mostly procured from Ali this and Ali that. Literally no part is local. They've no interest or fiscal incentive to make it locally either.

As to Tonbo's thermal imagers, apart from their casing & software, what exactly is local? Where is their sourcing from. Mostly imported parts. Fact, only BEL sponsored an academic program along with DRDO to make a basic thermal matrix in India. Everyone else is importing their hardware from France, Israel & the US.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

A 2012 article on UVW development by DRDO

Link: Underwater Might

By T.S. Subramanian.
Underwater might
T.S. SUBRAMANIAN
Print edition : March 23, 2012

S.V. Rangarajan, Director, NSTL.-BY SPECIAL ARRANGEMENT

The DRDO's triad of laboratories supply the Indian Navy with high-potential weapons systems.

The 52 laboratories of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) spread across India have a high-potential but low-profile Trimurti, specialising in naval systems, among them the Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL) in Visakhapatnam, the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL) in Kochi, and the Naval Materials Research Laboratory (NMRL) at Ambernath, 60 km from Mumbai. I describe them as Brahma, Vishnu and Siva [the triad of Hindu gods], said S.V. Rangarajan, Director, NSTL.

The NSTL, situated in the foothills of the Eastern Ghats, is the only laboratory in the country to develop underwater weapons such as torpedoes and mines, their associated fire control systems, and decoys to seduce enemy torpedoes. It also develops stealth technology, produces autonomous underwater vehicles (AUVs) and conducts research in hydro-dynamics. The NPOL develops sonars, surveillance and underwater communication systems and counter-measures. The NMRL has come up with non-skid, anti-corrosion and fire-retardant paints, smart coating and fuel cells. It pursues research in protective technologies, marine materials, energy science, polymers and ceramics. While the NPOL is Brahma, the perceiver, and the NMRL the protector, we are Siva, the destroyer, declared Rangarajan, filling the room with his gentle humour. He predicted that future wars would be fought at sea and underwater. But while most of the underwater technology was not available in the marketplace, he said India had made significant progress, with an indigenous grip in the field. Our base is strong, he said.

Scientists of the NSTL work in a harsh atmosphere as they work underwater, which is about 850 times heavier than air. The technology of developing torpedoes is much more complex than building missiles because torpedoes have to speed underwater where the resistance is far higher than in the air. Besides, Rangarajan said, torpedoes are an amalgam of difficult disciplines: they include electro-chemistry, structural engineering, mechatronics, signal processing, real-time software, embedded systems, transduction and sensing, acoustics, gyroscopes, inertial navigation and guidance systems, and warheads.

The NSTL has developed both light-water torpedoes (LWTs), named TAL, and heavy-weight torpedoes (HWTs), named Takshak and Varunastra. Takshak has two versions, a submarine-launched variant with wire guidance and a ship-launched one with autonomous guidance. Varunastra is an advanced version of the ship-launched HWT. Under development is a torpedo called Shakti with thermal propulsion, which can generate 500 kilowatt of power and rev up the engine within a second. Thermal propulsion is a challenging technology, said Rangarajan. It is a totally indigenous effort. We have already consolidated several technologies in its development. Only the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia had torpedoes with thermal propulsion when we took up the challenge.

The LWT is 2-3 metres long, weighs 200 kg to 300 kg and packs 50 kg of explosives. It can be launched from ships and helicopters. When a helicopter releases the LWT, the latter drops down with the help of a parachute, which gets detached when the torpedo hits the water. TAL has a speed of 33 knots an hour and can operate at a maximum depth of 540 m. It is under production by Bharat Dynamics Limited, Hyderabad, for the Navy.

The Advanced LWT (ALWT) is currently under design and will be in production in 2015-16. In Takshak, which is an anti-submarine system, the wire is the medium of communication between the torpedo and the firing ship. If the wire breaks, Takshak would become an autonomous torpedo like its ship-launched variant. It can travel up to a distance of 40 km for taking out submarines and can operate up to a depth of 400 m.

Varunastra, which is ready for trials by the Navy, weighs more than one tonne and contains 250 kg of explosives. It travels at a speed of 40 knots an hour, going in circles and bobbing up and down to attack targets. K. Sudhakar, Principal Associate Director, NSTL, called the torpedo's homing device, located in its front portion, its eyes and ears as it detects and tracks the target. Its guidance system enables it to take the optimum path towards the target, and its onboard computer guides its rudder's navigation towards the target. The warhead has a proximity fuse, with the blast occurring about 8 m from the target. The torpedo should have its own intelligence to reject the decoy and go towards the target, Sudhakar said. Besides, torpedoes should be water-tight. Development of a torpedo takes 10 to 15 years. It has to go through several sea trials. We started out in this field 25 years ago. No torpedo technology is available in the open market, he added.


Image

A TORPEDO DEVELOPED by the NSTL, being tested in mid-sea.-C.V. SUBRAHMANYAM

Decoys are mini-torpedoes that seduce and mislead torpedoes coming from enemy craft so that naval vessels can get away, explained N. Raghavarao, senior scientist. The NSTL has developed a submarine-launched decoy. The Navy has inducted this decoy into service. The NSTL and the NPOL are working on another decoy called Mareech. The NSTL is developing Mohini, a rocket-launched anti-sonar decoy.

Mines in underwater warfare are lethal and cost-effective weapons. Capable of detecting targets, they can be launched from ships, submarines and air. They can stay underwater in sleep mode for several months and, on sensing magnetic, acoustic and pressure signatures, wake up to detonate. The NSTL has delivered processor-based ground (that is, seabed) mine to the Navy, says S.M. Bhave, a senior scientist. It has developed moored mines, which will hang at certain depths in the sea.

A big programme under way at the NSTL is the building of an AUV. Manu Korulla, scientist, called the AUVs a new class of intelligent underwater vehicles, which will operate without human supervision to carry out survey, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. The AUV can be configured to drop and hunt for mines, lift underwater bodies, do counter-communication measures and change course on sensing obstacles. It will have cameras, sonars and image processors. We know the technology to develop various sizes of AUVs for various applications, Korulla said.

C.D. Malleswar, a senior scientist, said the laboratory had developed Panchendriya, a submarine-based fire-control system (FCS), which has been inducted into the Navy's Vela class of submarines. The FCS receives information from the boat's sonar on the target's bearing and presets the torpedoes for destroying the enemy craft. The NSTL has supplied three helicopter-based FCSs for torpedoes to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. We have received production orders for seven FCSs for the integrated anti-submarine war complex, Malleswar said. The NSTL has gargantuan facilities. There is a big hall with several state-of-the-art CNC [Computer Numerical Control] machines. R.V.S. Subrahmanyam, scientist, said the components used in torpedoes, mines and decoys were machined in CNC machines. This is elite class work, he said, showing a component where the clearance between a rotor and its cowl was just 0.5 mm.

The NSTL's High Speed Towing Tank is a huge building enclosing a water channel that is 500 m long, 8 m wide and 8 m deep. It holds 32,000 tonnes of water. NSTL scientists tow models of ships and submarines at high speed in the channel to study the resistance offered to them by water, the resultant drag, and the power required to overcome the resistance. We study the resistance offered by water so that we can design the hull of these bodies more efficiently, said P.K. Panigrahi, a senior scientist.

Another big facility is a cavitation tunnel. Here water is pumped on to a propeller to create flow conditions for the blades to study the phenomenon of bubbles formation. Amazing is the sea-keeping and manoeuvring basin, an artificial lake with a roof, which is under construction. Four giant borewells will pump 240 lakh litres of water over three months to form the lake, which will be 135 m long, 37 m broad and 5 m deep. Here, waves will be generated to study their impact on the seaworthiness and agility of vessels.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Neela »

Karan M wrote:
Gyan wrote:I have a feeling that this is a step towards increasing involvement of Pvt sector in R&D. DRDO will no longer have sole claim to R&D funds.

DRDO also has some inexplicable delays in projects Eg Nirbhay & Rustom-2.

Indian Pvt sector has 100+ flying designs of UAVs, compare that to HAL NRUV program, dead in water since 2008

Tonbo thermal imagers are better screw driven than BEL relabelling.
The Indian pvt sectors's 100's of flying designs of UAVs are full of parts, mostly procured from Ali this and Ali that. Literally no part is local. They've no interest or fiscal incentive to make it locally either.

As to Tonbo's thermal imagers, apart from their casing & software, what exactly is local? Where is their sourcing from. Mostly imported parts. Fact, only BEL sponsored an academic program along with DRDO to make a basic thermal matrix in India. Everyone else is importing their hardware from France, Israel & the US.
Karan, Its a hard choice for companies. P&L , investor pressure, forecast etc are defined targets which as a company they have to work towards. R&D , pilots, prototypes for are notoriously known for cost overruns, delays, re-spins etc.
Take the case of Tonbo. They have investor funding. I would assume the investors would have put in $50-$100M or so. They will need to see the money back based on Tonbo's product portfolio and they'd know what will succeed. Otherwise , no one will put in the money. You can only go up the value chain so much for a company like Tonbo. Assemblies, market diversification based on existing products, control software etc are low hanging fruits but when productized, starts generating revenue. Investors are happy.
They do not have the capital to invest in CMOS imaging sensors . They will have go to DRDO, ISRO, SCL, and forge a partnership at an appropriate time to get the core IP ownership. That time comes when you have
(a) govt incentivizing them
(b) competition eating into market share.
(c) surplus from P&L.

Unlike China, where the banks lend huge amounts to companies and fully backed by the government, we are in a much more restrictive setup where bank NPAs are political. We are left with private investors primarily.
I have very little idea about how much investment you would need for an in house IR imaging chip portfolio for Tonbo's products. I am guessing more than $50 million and upwards maybe? Their investors need to know if DRDO, SCL can produce it and then assess the risk factor and must also be willing to wait for 4-5 years.

I believe though that the tide is turning slowly. Private investor funding is reaching $50 million ranges. Sad to see that majority of it go to fintechs but some portions go to space, engines for UAVs etc. It is happening. We are in the early evolutionary stage.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Cyrano »

FWIW.. is there a published list of all approved projects somewhere?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Gyan »

DPSUs and even some DRDO products like Brahmos & Barak-8 are relabelled imports. BEL thermal imager are also imports with less input then Tonbo

To set up thermal imager “sensor” & other associated electronics manufacturing line around $ 1 Billion is required.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Prasad »

While commercial compulsions necessitate taking the difficult approach, we also have to appreciate companies like Bellatrix who spent years before coming up with a product. They had TDF funding from drdo and worked silently and today have a range of products. And given that there seems to be extensive moves underway to clip the wings of the Sec DDR&D by god knows who (we all know who), combined with the ridiculously low budgetary & personnel allocation towards DRDO, we should all be really really concerned.

Even IDDM can be gamed given that criterion is blanket % of indian content without audit of what % of core of a system is actually IDDM. This is a dangeous loophole that many a system can be pushed through. We've seen Make-2/Buy Indian already being used this way.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Larry Walker »

I saw a news article today where IN will buy C-295 MPA instead of more P-8I Neptunes - apparently budget constraints. What really bewilders me is that even for a fraction of a capability gap - like between Athos and Dhanush - there will be so much hype to ensure that we buy the costlier Athos. But where there is a quantum difference in capabilities and firepower like in this case - we will moan about budget and try to live with the less effective but cheaper option. If IN had about 30 P-8I's deployed in BoB and IO - then it would be game up for PLAN - plus along with Su30-MKI carrying extended range Brahmos IN could have dominated Malacca and Sundas straits
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Prasad »

Navy wants Predators. Those things cost a 100mn each. Navy's budget is paper thin already.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

Tech Dev Fund DRDO

https://tdf.drdo.gov.in/
Vayutuvan
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Vayutuvan »

ramana wrote:Tech Dev Fund DRDO

https://tdf.drdo.gov.in/
The industry has to be owned and controlled by Indian Citizen.
Hmm. Does that mean OCI owned companies are ineligible? That is my interpretation. What about a company registered in India but owned by OCIs? or an India based Trust?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Gyan wrote:DPSUs and even some DRDO products like Brahmos & Barak-8 are relabelled imports. BEL thermal imager are also imports with less input then Tonbo

To set up thermal imager “sensor” & other associated electronics manufacturing line around $ 1 Billion is required.
Brahmos is heavily Indianized. Bar it's propulsion literally everything is Indian or being made Indian. It's C3I, TELs are all Indian designed and made inhouse. Brahmos 2 /NG in devpt are going to be entirely Indian sourced.

MRSAM again your claims are off. Only the IN LRSAM has a very high import content. IAF and IA MRSAM both have C3I and TELs as Indian, and the critical dual propulsion motor and actuation as Indian. The radars have TRMs made in India and for the IA MRSAM even the radar is made in India. Heck, I am no fan of the MRSAM but have to acknowledge they've gone to significant lengths to make as many systems locally as possible, given this program was clearly foisted on them.

As to BEL thermal imagers etc, they even release the % by import by value etc for their products at an overall level. When has any pvt firm done so. You've also neatly sidestepped the fact BEL is sponsoring local R&D at IISc.

If you want to support the pvt sector that's one thing, but let's not make inaccurate claims.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Vayutuvan wrote:
ramana wrote:Tech Dev Fund DRDO

https://tdf.drdo.gov.in/
The industry has to be owned and controlled by Indian Citizen.
Hmm. Does that mean OCI owned companies are ineligible? That is my interpretation. What about a company registered in India but owned by OCIs? or an India based Trust?
It might be worth contacting DRDO directly. They've sponsored joint ventures with Israel for critical tech. Might extend that on case by case basis elsewhere too.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

Please contact them directly.

On page 4 it says

The startup must be owned and controlled by a Resident Indian citizen with a shareholding
of at least 51%
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Vayutuvan »

OK. Will do. As of now, no requirements for what we do.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Look at the DRDO and services long term roadmap. If your proposals align with them, even better. Even if not give it a try.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by csaurabh »

^ I would recommend against that approach. Generally, DRDO scientists have a policy not to entertain unauthorized proposals.
The general rule is that you don't contact them, they contact you.
TDF is different because it is a scheme in which you can apply against a specific project.
Having received both TDF grant and purchase from DRDO, I would say that the sale/purchase procedure works much better (even though the purchase is not technically supposed to be for technology development, it is used for that purpose anyway ).
TDF grant has onerous conditions and requires much more coordination.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by jaysimha »

MINISTRY OF DEFENCE - YEAR END REVIEW 2022

• Development & national security go hand-in-hand – The twin objectives in focus in MoD’s push for Aatmanirbharta in Defence

• New India powered by indigenous ecosystem; INS Vikrant, LCH ‘Prachand’ and other new acquisitions strengthen the might of the Armed Forces

• Record rise of defence exports – Emergence of Indian companies on global stage

•‘AGNIPATH’ rolled out to build a youthful, tech-savvy & future-ready Armed Forces – Agniveers to begin training from January 2023

•Thrust on border infrastructure development continues
------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted On: 17 DEC 2022 10:51AM by PIB Delhi

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1884353
ramana
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

Pratyush
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Pratyush »

Looking at the picture of the device. A question comes to mind. The wing appears to be a single unit that will pivot to glide position post launch.

During the pivot, will the wing not generate assymetric lift during deployment to the glide position?

How will that effect the release envelope of the munition?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by YashG »

Awarding of contract to Sagar Defence for USVs is also a news that has not surface much. I think this is a very important milestone as well.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ashishvikas »

PM Narendra Modi will dedicate the new #HAL Helicopter plant at Tumakuru (Karnataka) to the nation on February 13th.

#IADN

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/161 ... 7avbg&s=19

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Vips »

Swan Energy draws up big plans for Reliance Naval.
“It is a good asset and has been run efficiently and smoothly. It has a 2-million square feet workshop. It has the largest drydock in India. And there’s enough available area to almost double the whole set-up and make it the best engineering centre in India,” mentioned Paresh Merchant, director, Swan Energy.

The versatility of the asset, in line with him, is along with taking up ship restore work or oil and fuel vessel work. “One could also look at manufacturing containers, wagons or retrofitting of tanks,” he added. The firm is already in talks with the Indian Navy, Oil and Natural Gas Corporation and Indian Coast Guard to revive the present contracts on the shipyard, Merchant mentioned. As RNEL went out of business, the promoters have been unable to ship the above-mentioned contracts. However, it did ship two oil rigs to ONGC even when it went out of business.

Swan Energy plans to make use of the ability to bag worldwide orders because the shipyard was additionally certified for the upkeep of the Fifth and the Seventh Fleet of the US Navy. Currently, the corporate is in discussions with the coast guard, which is in the hunt for a jetty. Executives mentioned if the talks fructify, the coast guard may very well be utilizing Swan’s facility.

RNEL, previously Pipavav Shipyard, has a 720-metre sea entrance and 685-metre outfit quay, making it one of many largest dry docks on the planet. “Other than L&T’s Kattupalli Shipyard, there are no other private yards in the country. From 2014 to 2020, not many naval defence contracts have been awarded. But now, as India looks to become a major defence manufacturing hub, we expect orders to start coming in,” added Vivek Merchant, venture supervisor, Swan Energy.

The shipyard initially had two moist basins – one roughly 680-m lengthy and 65-m large and the opposite about 680-m lengthy and 60-m large. The first was subsequently transformed right into a dry dock 662-m lengthy and 65-m large. A dry dock is an space drained of water to permit for the inspection and restore of a ship’s hull.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Vayutuvan »

csaurabh wrote:TDF grant has onerous conditions and requires much more coordination.
We are not interested in funding.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

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