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India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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ArjunPandit
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Nov 2017 01:00

TATA/TASL is certainly growing in the organic fashion, unlike adani and ambani who are airdropped in this industry. Ambani still bought pipavav..
Approach followed by TATA/TASL will certainly give long term good results.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 18 Nov 2017 01:55

What is organic in buying out a foreign firms design and license assembling it per se? Its just the same old which our DPSUs used to do. Nothing special in that approach.
TASL's work on MRSAM, BMD C3I though is different and involves its own IP.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 18 Nov 2017 02:17

I would say TATAs are punchin way below their weight. By now they should have acquired good number of small/medium mfg companies overseas. But all they are doing is scredrivergiri, mainly through offsets. In fact they should have been in Tier1 suppliers for LCA. I was rather disappointing with TASL for mission out on it. Also in last decade 2 OEMs were sold in Eurpe for a few hundred million each. Could have been picked up by Indian cos. Tatas have good brand name. Would have been easier for them.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Nov 2017 02:31

^^JayS & KaranM, your comments are on absolute terms and I agree with them, however, my point was only related to them as compared to other biggies. Their risk aversion, is understandable in light of volatile indian govt policies.
PS: This is where i think the tacit civil military compartmentalization in our society harms us.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 18 Nov 2017 04:50

JayS et al, All foreign aerospace majors everywhere were founded by visionary technocrats whose names are still preserved in those company names: Loughead, Boeing, McDonnell, Douglas, Northrop, Grumman,(most worked together in Lockheed in 1920s) Dassault,Mikoyan and Gurevich et al.

No aerospace company was founded by a conglomerate just interested in 15% giri or nameless bureaucrats.
So where the engineers with mojo willing to create great companies and enterprises?

UB is willing to mentor a drone company for a parcel delivery business. Wont find a better opportunity than that.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 18 Nov 2017 05:08

^^ When you attain a certain size being risk averse is more of a negative then being a virtue. Investing a couple of hundred million in aggressively building your presence in a sunrise industry (in India) would have not hurt them no matter how volatile the government policies were.
Look at L&T they invested a huge amount and it is now slowly paying back with large Naval platform orders being offered to Pipavav and them, they also got the K9 thunder contract.
Full credit to Bharat Forge and Baba Kalyani who took a challenge invested his personal money, acquired a plant from Austria and built a gun which is already a world record holder.
Its almost criminal being the size of TATA, having captive defence business (having orders for its trucks every year) and still being a bit player in the overall sweepstakes.

I hope Mukesh Ambani aggressively ventures into defence equipment manufacturing domain. The same good for nothing babus of DPSU will deliver on time every time under him.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 18 Nov 2017 08:58

X-post...
JayS wrote:Rakesh, the cost of second line is 1250Cr or so, which is HAL's share and 50% of total cost (rest 25% from IAF and 25% from IN). That 130Cr figure is a typo. Missed one Zero.

nachiket wrote:LCA is different because its ADA's baby?


To some extent, Yes. Thought its been reduced to a large extent now. HAL does not have ownership of the design. Even if they want to expedite they need SOP frozen first. If you read CAG report, one big reason for delays in first production line set up was because ADA kept changing SOPs for LSPs. There are huge differences among the LSPs. The changes in turn were dictated by the ever changing requirements. How do you set up a production line for ever changing SOP..? HAL does have its own money but no ownership of LCA. Where they have full ownership of projects they went ahead and invested own money. For LCH they even went ahead with Limited series production despite no orders. Orders came later. For second LCA line where HAL's 50% share was 1250Cr, they had to wait for MoD's approval (HAL has only a limited financial autonomy owing to its Navaratna status, and this was beyond that limit. Elsewhere they have invested 500-600Cr of own money on projects like HTT-40, HTFE/HTSE/ LCA/LUH, as that's within HAL governing body's power). MoD sat on the proposal for over a year. Not its cleared and HAL has already set up second line (setting up an assembly line is not a big deal, just a big hall and bunch of jigs/fixtures/machines are needed. What is more challenging is to get supply chain rolling and skilled man power to man the new stations and keep the cost of expansion reasonable so the unit cost don't shoot up too much).

On the other hand is ADA which has the ownership but no money of its own to commit. Neither it have any statutory authority or control over other involved organizations. This issue has been raised/discussed ever since LCA was conceived and ADA was in concept stage, in early 1983-84 time period. The program management model is flawed. Only until in 2006 that there was a combined governing body to steer LCA was formed. IAF/ADA/HAL seat together in it and its chaired by RM. They have quarterly or monthly meetings. So all the stake holders at the top are aware of all the decisions and why they have taken.

But now it seems HAL might be more keen to take LCA's ownership. MK1A is basically HAL's baby which got approved against ADA's MK2 proposal. IMO LCA can be completely transferred to HAL, even the MK2 version. ADA can focus on AMCA/Ghatak. As such majority of LCA's subsystems are actually designed by HAL. It will should not be a big deal for them to take the project over completely. We need to do away with this misplaced Responsibility-Authority-Accountability model.



and...

JayS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:RBE 2 AA from Thales --> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/active-e ... rbe2-radar
RBE 2 AA from Thales --> https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/defau ... bat_ok.pdf

EL/M-2052 from Elta --> http://www.iai.co.il/2013/34481-34455-e ... s-ELM.aspx
EL/M-2052 from Elta --> http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/7/41417.pdf

Like I said earlier, have multiple component programs going for similar systems. Radar + Engine to start off with. Mitigates risk, enjoy the advantages (and disadvantages) of both systems. Learn from them and develop/fine-tune your own components.

Kaveri --> F404/F414 + M88
Uttam --> EL/M-2052 + RBE 2 AA

Have Thales, Elta, GE, Snecma-Safran partner with public and/or private institutions. I prefer the latter and this is where Chola's idea can come to frutition. Have private/public firms invest in doing screwdrivergiri on components, but not on an entire plane. You can learn a lot more on a component (micro - laser vision focus) that just doing assembly on a plane (macro - no focus, all over the map, zero learning). You want to revolutionize the aviation industry? Start on small albeit absolutely-must-have components.

Rope in IITs and other educational institutions if you need to. We don't have a lack of brainpower in India. Rather than have newly-minted IITs graduates go abroad, give them "valuable" employment in Indian organisations with comparable pay + benefit packages like their Western counterparts. Lot cheaper than SEF (no sarcasm intended) and that investment has payoffs. Think long term, not short term and asinine solutions like SEF acquisition.

SEF acquisition does not mitigate risk vis-à-vis Tejas Mk1A or Mk2, it does the exact opposite.


Rakesh saar, its important to keep the program at low-risk and realistic. More components in the system only add to more variables and more places/chances of failures. More may not be better always. Rahter that experimenting too much on single jet, it would be more prudent to spread out diversification over other jets in the fleet. Elta is already coming on Jaguar. Thales on Rafale. We do not need all of these on LCA at the same time. Same goes with engine. Run science projects with all these things on flight test LCA articles by all means, but operational fleet needs to be robust and necessarily with least number of variables possible to keep reliability and maintainability at reasonable levels.

Let me say this one more time - Its not the technology what we really need "ToT" in, but its the Program Management/Systems Engineering. Once we get that right, technology development will follow. LCA is one project which got rather prompt funding (in Indian context, relatively speaking), we developed key technologies in record time. Where we screwed up is the program management, despite all stake holders seating together and driving the program. The kind of changes that has happened in LCA requirements, do not happen anywhere else in the world. Even this Mk1 to MK1A kind of knee jerk decisions do not happen.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2017 21:43

One more interesting item:
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=173539

In consonance with Government of India’s ‘Make in India’ Policy; Indian Navy on 15th November 2017, has concluded a contract with Tata Power Strategic Engineering Division for supply of Portable Diver Detection Sonar (PDDS) under the ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ category. This is the second contract to be signed by the Indian Navy under the ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ category to boost Government of India’s Defence indigenisation effort. The maiden contract under this category was also signed earlier this year by the Indian Navy for supply of Surface Surveillance Radar for IN warships.

Portable Diver Detection Sonar would be manufactured by Tata Power SED in India at their facility at Bengaluru with Transfer of Technology from DSIT Israel. Induction of weapons and sensors under ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ category, is one the numerous measures being taken by the Indian Navy to boost indigenisation for ensuring a self reliant Navy, in line with the Government of India’s ‘Make in India’ initiative. Induction of Portable Diver Detection Sonar would further enhance Indian Navy’s Underwater Surveillance Capability in the field of Low Intensity Maritime Operations. Procurement of these sonars for utilisation onboard ships is being undertaken by the Indian Navy to augment countermeasures against asymmetric threats.


So along with Terma SSRs at Tata ASL, now PDS at TATA SED, plus thermal sights earlier with a MSME, the days of TOT only to designated DPSU are gone. If the easy license assemble and claim profits route is no longer there, BEL et al will have to look more and more towards proper design and development.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 23 Nov 2017 22:26

After supersonic success of BrahMos, DRDO to make its booster motor in Indi.

After successfully launching the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet, the Indian scientists are now working on making the missile more indigenous.

The scientists from High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) who have worked on high energy materials in BrahMos stated that they will be developing the booster motor of BrahMos ingenuously at HEMRL.

PK Mehta, director general (Armament and Combat Engineering) DRDO said, "All the missile program of the country has some connection with Pune's HEMRL as in every missile, the high energy material is used."

"In case of BrahMos missile, HEMRL has played key role when it comes to use of high energy material. So far, the booster motor used in BrahMos is being supplied by our joint venture partner Russia. However, now the booster motor is going to be developed in the country. The development of the booster motor is being worked out at HEMRL. Once it is done, BrahMos will have the large indigenous component," Mehta added.

Brahmos, the supersonic cruise missile was tested for the first time from a Sukhoi-30MKI jet on Wednesday.

"The BrahMos missile so far was being fire tested from land and naval platform. Now it has been fired successfully from SU-30 platform also. After the successful test from air platform, the effective range of the missile has increased. Now the missile can be fire with pinpoint accuracy from nearly 250 to 300 kilometers away from the target," Mehta said.

When asked about the policy on high energy materials being worked by the government, Mehta said, "It is a white paper primary to do with strategic material which country needs. The government wants to ensure that it wants to keep the resources intact and if the need arises they can be imported and made available."

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 23 Nov 2017 22:43

Excellent news! I hope they replicate the same for all critical defence stores and subsystems!

When asked about the policy on high energy materials being worked by the government, Mehta said, "It is a white paper primary to do with strategic material which country needs. The government wants to ensure that it wants to keep the resources intact and if the need arises they can be imported and made available."

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 25 Nov 2017 09:30

http://www.aviation-defence-universe.co ... iant-leap/

A great article on Alpha and items ordered from them so far.

600 CNR for IA IFVs. 1000 T-72 TIFCS, 960 odd BMP TI sights and so forth.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Anoop » 28 Nov 2017 09:40

Perspective from the Armed Forces.

http://bharatshakti.in/leadership-in-the-defence-industry-of-india/

Trustworthiness. The defence forces expect the industry to deliver on their promises. They are used to having everything done “in time.” Inordinate or unexplained delays are not “military-like.” If you have promised them the skies, then you have to provide it. Military leaders have to repose faith in the leaders of other pillars of country and that faith cannot be betrayed, even if the industry has to face temporary financial setbacks. Realism and professional candor are appreciated in this relationship.


From the military's perspective, it is easy to see how repeated delays and excuses can put them off....they are culturally groomed to deliver and excuses are not tolerated. Something to think about.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Nov 2017 10:18

Anoop wrote:Perspective from the Armed Forces.

http://bharatshakti.in/leadership-in-the-defence-industry-of-india/

Trustworthiness. The defence forces expect the industry to deliver on their promises. They are used to having everything done “in time.” Inordinate or unexplained delays are not “military-like.” If you have promised them the skies, then you have to provide it. Military leaders have to repose faith in the leaders of other pillars of country and that faith cannot be betrayed, even if the industry has to face temporary financial setbacks. Realism and professional candor are appreciated in this relationship.


From the military's perspective, it is easy to see how repeated delays and excuses can put them off....they are culturally groomed to deliver and excuses are not tolerated. Something to think about.


Armed forces, army in particular, release the most vague and amorphous RFIs. How many procurement exercises have failed because of poorly thought out specifications. Take the example of milti calibre rifles where the technical specifications were ridiculous. When the RFI says the recoil of the gun should be manageable, it does not specify the metrics around which it should be, say the recoil impulse defined in a figure, or muzzle rise defined in terms of angular distance covered. Often you would see noise levels and muzzle blast effects undefined. These vague specifications leave a lot in the hands of the testing team and the manufacturers are left at the mercy of the establishment, whether or not they will get a chance to demonstrate refined product that would please the testing committee or even if they do, would the product fit within their commercial bid. And don't forget corruption. Armed forces are just as corrupt as the civilian world, even more so, because they can get away with the veil of secrecy. I have seen enough veterans complaint about it for me to come to this conclusion.

US armed forces do a lot of this stuff, but they also fund some of these crazy programs. Weapons development is expensive and risky business fraught with geopolitical restrictions and often pushing the boundaries of science and engineering.
The armed forces will never admit their mistakes, because the customer is always right.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby deejay » 28 Nov 2017 10:40

Read the DPP Thakur ji. Each and every RFI/RFP are vetted by multiple agencies and not just an Armed Forces exercise.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby A Sharma » 01 Dec 2017 20:28

DRDO Newsletter Dec 2017

DRDO conducts Successful Flight Trial of ‘Nirbhay’ Sub-Sonic Cruise Missile
R&DE (E) develops Blast Containment Enclosure
DRDO Tests Guided Bomb
DMRL Develops and Indigenizes speciality Aluminium Alloys for Advanced Defence Systems

Special section on The Airborne Early warning and Control System (AEW&C)

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 01 Dec 2017 20:41

A Sharma wrote:DRDO Newsletter Dec 2017

DRDO conducts Successful Flight Trial of ‘Nirbhay’ Sub-Sonic Cruise Missile
R&DE (E) develops Blast Containment Enclosure
DRDO Tests Guided Bomb
DMRL Develops and Indigenizes speciality Aluminium Alloys for Advanced Defence Systems

Special section on The Airborne Early warning and Control System (AEW&C)

Also
The “50 Men Solar heated Oxygenated
Shelter for High Altitude Areas (HAA)”
brought cheers to our jawans fighting
battles in the snow clad areas.

The shelter, 24 m x 7 m, is self
sustainable as it utilizes solar energy
for heating and power generation. The
extra heat energy harvested during day
time is stored in the PCM for use during
evening hours. For power generation
10 solar panels of 200 watts have
been installed along with lithium ion
batteries for storing this power.
The shelter is having provision for
20 persons in the sitting room and for
32 persons in the two dormitories. All
these rooms have separate sensors
and controllers for oxygen and Carbon
dioxide. Besides this shelter has
indirect heating system, heat traced
plumbing system to prevent freezing
of water in the pipes, state-of-the-art
oxygen concentrator, cylinder filling
system, DG set as a backup and sewage
treatment plant.



The guided bomb released from the aircraft and guided through
precision navigation system, reached the targets at more than 70 km range
with high accuracies.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2017 22:14

And LSP of 40 ATAGs approved.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Kashi » 02 Dec 2017 07:15

Pardon my ignorance but what exactly is a Limited Series Production?

ramana
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 02 Dec 2017 07:28

Just before full factory production is started, a small.order to setup the machines etc.

Dhanush also had a LSP.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 05 Dec 2017 04:54

India’s Homemade Specialty Alloy to Drastically Cut BrahMos Cost.

Indian defense scientists consider it a major achievement, as the BrahMos missile utilizes five different grades of wrought aluminum alloys in eight different semi-product forms, which are developed in nine different heat treatment conditions.
New Delhi (Sputnik) — India has developed its own specialty aluminum alloy that is being used to construct critical parts of the BhraMos missile — the world's first and only supersonic cruise missile. The state-own Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) locally developed the alloy that was earlier imported from Russia.

This is crucial to the development and capacity enhancement of the BhraMos missile, as the manufacturers hope to make substantial cost savings with the locally developed alloy that is being used for the construction of the fuel tank and airframe of the missile.

"The series production of aluminum alloy intensive F3 section, i.e., the major load bearing section of the BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile, using indigenous materials has begun at a fabrication plant in Mumbai. The indigenous production of aluminum alloys has resulted in substantial cost savings," a DRDO official said.

"A majority of these different grades of alloys are located in the F3 section, which comprises fuel tanks and airframe," DRDO added.

The indigenous material was developed through collaboration between the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), a DRDO wing and BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited (BAPL), Hyderabad. The Russian team of NPOM, a joint venture partner for BrahMos, has approved the production processes and the quality control procedures of the alloy.
Earlier this month, DRDO had also announced the development of a solid propellant booster used to achieve supersonic speeds in the cruise stage of the BrahMos.

The BrahMos missile has been jointly developed by Russian and Indian scientists and is the world's first and only supersonic cruise missile. It is a precision strike weapon for the Indian armed forces that can be fitted in ships, mobile launchers, submarines and aircraft against land and sea targets.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rakesh » 07 Dec 2017 05:29

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/938459126631247875 --> India's first indigenously developed infra-red free electron laser is operational in a 60 metre shielded tunnel at RRCAT, Indore. RRCAT is a part of the Department of Atomic Energy.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/938460579940900864 --> Incidentally RRCAT has also developed a prototype laser designator unit that can be used for guiding anti-tank misses that can be fired from MBT main guns i.e CLGMs.*

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/938465952357744641 --> The laser source has a pure permanent magnet undulator with a 50 mm period and an injector LINAC system capable of delivering an electron beam in the 15-25 MeV range.

*Cannon-launched Laser Guided Missile [CLGM]


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2017 08:47

Can some kind soul post the recent report that Arjun is on verge of induction as CLGM is readg for trials etc.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Dec 2017 09:15

Karan M wrote:Can some kind soul post the recent report that Arjun is on verge of induction as CLGM is readg for trials etc.


Is it?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2017 09:59

We can hope no sir..
I am merely asking for the report, IIRC it was HT and mentioned Arjun Mk2 on verge of induction etc.
Basically LAHAT did not work, so DRDO missile is now ready.
At least 124+114 (?) Arjuns will get inducted.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Nitesh » 07 Dec 2017 14:04

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 954646.cms

While information is not available on whether India is developing microwave weapons, DRDO tested a 1KW laser weapon system mounted on a truck at Chitradurga in Karnataka towards August end. “The laser beam hit a target located 250 metres away,” an official said. “It took 36 seconds for it to make a hole in the metal sheet.” The test was conducted in the presence of then defence minister Arun Jaitley, the person said.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 13 Dec 2017 06:14

Aerospace industry eyes biz worth Rs 12,500 cr.

On Tuesday, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) offered the aerospace vendors that feed its aircraft assembly lines a tantalising glimpse of major business opportunities ahead, adding up to some Rs 12,500 crore.

HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju told a gathering of the company’s vendors in Bengaluru that they would soon participate in building 100 trainer aircraft — the indigenously designed Hindustan Turbo Trainer–40 (HTT-40). In addition, the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), of which the Indian Air Force is committed to buying 187 pieces, is nearing certification.

“Given our large number of platforms with the Indian defence forces, we remain committed to increase the scope of work to our vendors to ensure success of our programmes. HAL is looking to produce 100 basic trainer aircraft HTT-40 soon, once spin tests are completed in the coming months. In the rotary wing segment, our efforts are on to achieve basic certification of LUH by the middle of 2018”, said Raju.

In 2013, then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne wrote to the defence minister stating that the HTT-40 would cost Rs 59.31 crore in 2018, and escalate by 2020 to Rs 64.77 crore. That letter was intended to scuttle the HTT-40 project as too expensive, and make a case for importing more Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainers from Switzerland. (An investigation needs to be carried out on the conduct of Browne to see if he was just pulling out these wild figures to favor Pilatus)

Now, however, it has emerged that HAL will build the HTT-40 for an affordable Rs 45 crore apiece. With the defence ministry having already approved the procurement of 106 indigenous trainers for the IAF, this would translate into business worth about Rs 5,000 crore for the aerospace sector.

HAL has managed to develop the indigenous trainer for a frugal Rs 450 crore, employing internal company funds, Raju told Business Standard in July. An additional Rs 120 crore will go on establishing the HTT-40 manufacturing line.

Separately, the manufacture of 187 LUHs, each costing an estimated Rs 40 crore according to internal HAL estimations, will generate business worth Rs 7,500 crore for the aerospace industry.

HAL says indigenisation levels in these platforms would be as high as 80 per cent, given that many imported components, sub-systems and systems would be progressively manufactured in India under transfer of technology. That means Rs 2,500 crore would flow abroad to global original equipment manufacturers (OEMs). Even so, Indian aerospace vendors, for the most part micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) that depend almost entirely on government orders, see the remaining Rs 10,000 crore as a significant opportunity.

Business is also expected to flow from a separate acquisition of 197 Kamov-226T light helicopters, which Russian helicopter manufacturer, Kamov, will initially supply ready-built, and then transfer technology to progressively manufacture in HAL.

In manufacturing aircraft like the Jaguar, Sukhoi-30MKI and the Hawk trainer, HAL had monopolised most of the manufacturing work, relying on very little outsourcing. More recently, the manufacture of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has seen HAL assume the role of “systems integrator”, with a significant percentage of the supply chain outsourced to private aerospace industry. In the future, HAL envisages functioning exclusively as a systems integrator, with a private industry supply chain feeding in components, sub-systems, systems and even major assemblies like the forward, middle and rear fuselage.
Last edited by Indranil on 13 Dec 2017 11:58, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: I am struggling very hard to not warn you for baseless insinuation of an ex-chief. You are new, so I am letting you go with a reprimand. But this was very close. I have struck off your offensive addition.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Dec 2017 11:45

Vips- the LUH in the Link has foldable rotor wings, any idea if they are automatic, would be grat for ALH and LUH Navy.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 13 Dec 2017 19:41

Indranilji with all due respect: Fact is wildly fictitious and ad hoc figures were mentioned to make the Pilatus an obvious choice. As far as making baseless allegations is concerned i am sure before the AW101 helicopter scam came into the public knowledge any similar post involving ex air force chief Tyagi being involved in the scam would have been treated with a similar caution by you. Events in the AW 101 case and the subsequent charge sheet by CBI against Tyagi have proved otherwise.The face that someone occupied a high place does not mean that he did not do nothing wrong.
Unless there is an investigation how will facts emerge?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 14 Dec 2017 05:26

It is very clear that IAF did not want HTT-40 and tried every thing to stop it. This included stalling delivery of engine to writing to the MoD with inflated costs, to glorifying the Pilatus, HTT-40's competitor.

But the Air chief wrote to MoD on behalf of the IAF. It was IAF's evaluation. You are assigning graft charges on him without any proof whatsoever.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 14 Dec 2017 07:14

Indranil wrote:It is very clear that IAF did not want HTT-40 and tried every thing to stop it. This included stalling delivery of engine to writing to the MoD with inflated costs, to glorifying the Pilatus, HTT-40's competitor.

But the Air chief wrote to MoD on behalf of the IAF. It was IAF's evaluation. You are assigning graft charges on him without any proof whatsoever.


I have not assigned graft charges just mentioned that an enquiry needs to be conducted. You are treating a suggestion of enquiry almost as a blasphemy. Again how can you produce proof of graft if no enquiry is conducted?

If air force chief Browne lied then his conduct is not excusable because he "acted on behalf of air force". You yourself have now mentioned that they tried every trick in the book to favour Pilatus. While the initial batch of Pilatus was bought as an emergency stop gap measure and was justified , why was the Air Force wilfully lying to buy even more number of Pilatus knowing it could very well sabotage the HTT 40 program?

BTW i did more research since my initial post and have read report that the Scam tainted UPA II government (Which used Tyagi to buy AW101 helicopters) made Browne ambassador to Finland immediately after his retirement. Just an FYI.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby shiv » 14 Dec 2017 07:49

Vips wrote:Again how can you produce proof of graft if no enquiry is conducted?

Anyone can allege graft against anyone else and then demand enquiry. Here you allege the graft and want an enquiry. Allegations such as those could be defamation. I say that what you said was defamation and you need to be sued for that. Please produce some kind of supportive evidence that graft has occurred, or else you are defaming an IAF chief.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Rakesh » 14 Dec 2017 08:33

DRDO DG defends high imports of military equipment
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-dr ... nt-2567497

Defending high imports of military, defence equipments, DRDO Director General SK Mishra on Wednesday said unfortunately we are living in a neighbourhood of most dangerous terrorist country in the world. There are many reasons for it and one is that we are living in neighbourhood of most dangerous terrorist country in the world, another is that there are 19 weather models which are possible, out of which we have 13 in India ranging from -55 degree Celsius to +55 degree Celsius, 100 degree humidity on sea to mountains where also humidity is high, different terrains, dessert. So our requirements are different and adverse, which means we have to source from variety of suppliers to be prepared to wage a war, he said replying to a query on why India still has high imports even decades after Independence. The combination of all this plus our history of a importing country makes us very vulnerable to this kind of import-export business, Mishra said. He was talking about "Role of DRDO in making India a world class defence hub" in a session at Global Partnership Summit. The DRDO Chief said we have a fund available for research and development of new technologies with a corpus of around Rs 1000 crore.

One can apply for it but there are only few applications. It should be a practical idea, i.e an idea which can be converted into a product. The problem is we do not have many applicants for it, he said talking about a severe shortage of entrepreneurs in defence related fields. In a presentation earlier, he said according to Mckinsey, it is expected that India's defence system requirement for next five years is around $150 billion. Indian manufacturing sector must capture a large portion of this domestic defence requirement for achieving self-reliance and enter into export market. He said they have managed to reduce the delivery time of equipments, ie the whole process of conceptualising and implementing from 20-25 years earlier to now 3-5 years. But, still there is demand to bring it down further. Till now, DRDO's total portfolio cleared for production stands at Rs 2.56 lakh crore. Mishra is also CEO and MD of BrahMos Aerospace, a joint venture between India and Russia. In November, the Indian Air Force became the first one in the world to successful test an air version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. The missile is a nuclear capable short-range supersonic cruise missile that can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vips » 14 Dec 2017 10:12

DRDO Develops 250 KW high-power Silver Oxide-Zinc Torpedo Batteries.

DRDO has developed 250 KWs Silver Oxide Zinc (AgOZn), both primary and secondary batteries for propulsion of heavy weight torpedo Varunastra

The current density required for a high-powered battery is of the order of 200 mA/cm2. This demands usage of a large amount of silver per ampere hour, a major part of which remains unrealised. To achieve the high battery voltage, a large number of cells need to be connected in series. These complexities often result into generation of high heat during discharging of the battery. By the end of the discharge, internal heat generated in the cells leads to the situation where the electrolyte starts boiling. This results in spillage of electrolyte and resistance drop in battery. High temperature generated internally affects battery's life cycle and its separators also. This requires working out of cell design, active material characterisation, and optimal use of separator material. DRDO has developed a 250 kW secondary battery consisting of zinc as anode, silver oxide as cathode, and potassium hydroxide as electrolyte. lt delivers 400 V on load at a discharge current of625 A for a short duration of 5 min.

The battery, which is used for heavyweight torpedo propulsion, will enhance the propulsion characteristics of the weapon. This will help in increasing the speed of torpedoes due to increased power from the present 100 kW to 250 kW, almost within the same space.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2017 12:50

Quoting Thakur:
Armed forces, army in particular, release the most vague and amorphous RFIs. How many procurement exercises have failed because of poorly thought out specifications.


I give a personal experience. A kinsman,intl consultant with an enviable proven track record,on a visit a few yrs. ago ,discussed with moi in depth how we could patriotically deliver something really worthwhile for the forces. Families have service backgrounds from WW1,2 AVSMs against the Pakis,etc.We zeroed in onto a particular item which we didn't possess and which we wanted to obtain/develop according to some sources. This was available with a firang (Western not Rus! :rotfl: ) OEM,leader in this tech,well known to him as he had done some work for them before.We then subsequently met a top desi entity,which employed former multi-starred service offrs. and specialists, who knew the family and were assisting the services obtaining high-tech items from abroad.A new co. was established,with an MOU signed with the desi outfit,as sole rights for India was obtained from the OEM,etc. Appointments made with end-users in Lutyens' Bagh for offeringthis item which would've been used in many applications.A team flew down incl. friangi experts.Meetings were also held across the country with the leading DPSU/Pvt. sector entities who could produce the same.Full TOT was being offered.

The presentation at Lutyens' Bagh was an education. It was like explaining the virtues of the latest smart phone to men used to operating 1950's black bakelite handsets! Performance stats; "Is that so?" was the kind of half-sceptical Col. Blimp reaction (remember Omar Sharif in McKenna's Gold?).
The local entities were all very keen on what was being offered ,but said that unless it was in the specs of the system,"no can do".Chicken and egg situ. In the wake of reports of so many scams,both true and false,those in uniform are wary of being too enthu about recommending something.Look at the fate of ACM Tyagi.So for 18 months and some good money spent-not for any backhanders,but establishment costs and liaison work,the end result was zilch.In fact nothing was asked for and nothing was given.We've wound up the co. and told the OEM,"..forget about India".Possibly in a decade's time we might get a call again,but by then we may have taken our boarding cards to the hereafter!

The sad fact is that there is a dearth of well-qualified technical experts in the MOD who can understand mil-tech.Secondly some of those that know something don't keep abreast enough of tech. developments across the globe. Can't blame them to much too,as file pushing is the principal work of those in govt. service.Where do they have time to scour the info globe for what's latest? It is those in uniform who do and make requests and wear themselves down trying to explain the reasons for the acquisition and the virtues of one system against another. DRDO boffins,while knowledgeable,all want to develop the same locally if possible and often make tall claims reg. performance,costs and timely delivery.That's why any decision that eventually gets through the labyrinth of the MOD and CCS deserves a medal in itself! And if it actually ordered after being selected and passed by the CCS,an out of turn promotion should be the reward!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 14 Dec 2017 22:11

Deejay, Did you go to the global partnership summit where the DRDO gent spoke?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby PratikDas » 15 Dec 2017 08:55

Swarajya Mag: Defence Ministry Undergoing Major Shakeup

Sitharaman: Union Minister Nirmala Sitharaman said on Thursday that a major "shakeup" is being given to the Defence Ministry to speed up various acquisition projects, ensure transparency and clear backlogs for key programmes. She also said the government is seriously examining functioning of around 39 ordnance factories and possible ways to boost their productivity including through joining of hands by the private sector. Sitharaman said the efforts are on to ensure that the defence acquisition council (DAC) clears all the backlog relating to various procurements by 31 December, emphasising that speeding up of decision making process has been one of her focus areas. Sitharaman, who assumed charge of the Defence Ministry in September, also said ensuring transparency is a major priority area for her. "The biggest compliance issue which we are definitely 100 per cent following is to have greater transparency, put everything in the public domain and make sure that every decision stands up to the principle of accountability," she said.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby deejay » 15 Dec 2017 10:38

ramana wrote:Deejay, Did you go to the global partnership summit where the DRDO gent spoke?


No Sir. I am cursing my luck.


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