India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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jamwal
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by jamwal »

Image

Army to get 100+ 'sky strikers' for Balakot-type missions from Bengaluru
The Indian army, under emergency procurement powers has signed a contract for more than 100 explosive-laden drones — to be manufactured in Bengaluru — that are to be used as force multipliers in Balakot type of missions. It will have a range of about 100km.

The requirement for what the army calls "loitering munition" will be fulfilled by 'SkyStriker' drones to be made and supplied by Bengaluru-headquartered company Alpha Design-led joint venture (JV) involving Israeli firm Elbit Security Systems (ELSEC). The contract signed on Wednesday is worth around Rs 100 crore.
Aside from the army contract for its JV, Alpha Design has independently bagged two more defence contracts from the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the past week.

The first is for six Very High Frequency (VHF) radars. The IAF already has long-distance surveillance radars — P18 radars — that can capture targets beyond 200km procured in 1980 and 1990s. Given their age, the IAF was looking at whether it should upgrade the P18s or procure new ones at the same cost and decided to buy new ones.

Under the emergency procurement powers, the IAF issued EOIs and RFPs which got responses from four companies: defence PSU BEL and three private firms Alpha Design, Astra Microwave and Data Patterns. While all four firms met the technical requirements, Alpha emerged as the lowest bidder (L1) and bagged the Rs 200+ crore contract signed last week.

The second, also an IAF contract, is for around 60 Identification of Friend-or-Foe (IFF) systems that will be integrated with ground radars. This technology was developed by the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) under DRDO and transferred to three firms: Alpha, BEL and Data Patterns.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by jaysimha »

Mahindra defence to manufacture integrated ASW defence suite for Indian Navy
August 28, 2021 09:31 IST
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 173_1.html
Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) said that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has awarded a major contract to Mahindra Defence Systems (MDS) worth Rs 1349.95 crore.

The contract is for the manufacturing integrated anti-submarine warfare defence suite (IADS) for modern warships of Indian Navy.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by YashG »

jamwal wrote:Image

Army to get 100+ 'sky strikers' for Balakot-type missions from Bengaluru

The second, also an IAF contract, is for around 60 Identification of Friend-or-Foe (IFF) systems that will be integrated with ground radars. This technology was developed by the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) under DRDO and transferred to three firms: Alpha, BEL and Data Patterns.
[/quote]

How much do these JVs count towards indigenisation and how much of this is just screwdrivergiri? Astra-Rafael jv for SDrs and nw this elbit-alpha JV. Is this helping us absorbing this tech?

Brahmos JV did help us but what about these?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by jamwal »

These are just foreign maal being assembled in India to get locally made tag. Just like Boat, Xiaomi brands type business model. Brahmos JV had Russian scientists contributing their expertise and Indians providing bulk of finance and tech. In products like these, Indians are offering just the outlet for sale and final assembly. AFAIK. It is already a well established product which has already seen combat service,

https://elbitsystems.com/product/skystriker/
Israel’s Elbit Systems has sold Azerbaijan its latest unmanned aerial vehicle which is capable of long-range precise tactical kamikaze strikes, The Jerusalem Post has learned.
The SkyStriker drone has been described by Elbit Systems as “a silent, invisible, and surprise attacker [that] delivers the utmost in precision and reliability, providing a critical advantage in the modern battlefield.”
The fully autonomous, loitering munitions system can carry a warhead of up to 10 kilograms and has a maximum loitering time of two hours. With a maximum travel speed of 100 knots (185 kph) the SkyStriker can reach a distance of 20 km. within 6.5 minutes.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israe ... one-577053
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by jaysimha »

How to develop deep tech startups for national security
Jul 03, 2021,

Sri. Sanjay Jaju is additional secretary,
Department of Defence Production,
Ministry of Defence, and
CEO of Defence Innovation Organisation.

Sri. Mudit Narain is technology officer to the
office of the principal scientific adviser,
GoI and adviser, iDEX.



https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst


We can now reveal some of our early success stories:

☻ Tonbo Imaging based out of Bangalore, designs and builds advanced imaging and sensor systems to deal with complex battle environments.

☻ Chennai-based Big Bang Boom Solutions began their journey by winning iDEX challenges. They are now developing prototypes to ‘Prevent Illegal Usage of Drones’ & ‘See Through Armour’.

☻ Pune-based Gurutvaa is also working on design and development of Counter Drone Systems for perimeter security.

☻ Z Motion Autonomous Systems is foraying into unmanned vehicle control technologies with an intent to develop aerial systems with ammunition carrying capability.

☻ North Street Cooling Towers, Ghaziabad, has joined the IDEX platform to develop carbon fibre filament to help make rocket launchers for the Indian Army.

☻ Saif Automations, Visakhapatnam, is a marine innovation startup, developing a battery powered self-propelled Life Buoy for the Indian Navy

☻ BigCat Wireless from IIT Madras Research Park is creating wireless solutions for the forces.

☻ NoPo Nanotechnologies is a startup specialising in manufacture of Single Walled Carbon Nanotubes and could lead India into a select group of few countries with this astounding capability.

☻ 3rdiTech is a winner of the iDEX challenge and is making a 100 Megapixel camera for Aerial platforms.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by nam »

Sky Striker may be a screw driver order, however unlike DPSU, Alpha Design has a self-interest in driving the cost down to improve profits, by producing maximum number of parts locally.

It would like to bag more orders, potentially offer improved solutions to the forces to keep driving the business. They will form R&D collaboration to provide better solutions. Despite not being a perfect deal, it is a move in the right direction.

The key: give large orders to private companies and put cost pressure on them. They will innovate.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by YashG »

nam wrote:Sky Striker may be a screw driver order, however unlike DPSU, Alpha Design has a self-interest in driving the cost down to improve profits, by producing maximum number of parts locally.

It would like to bag more orders, potentially offer improved solutions to the forces to keep driving the business. They will form R&D collaboration to provide better solutions. Despite not being a perfect deal, it is a move in the right direction.

The key: give large orders to private companies and put cost pressure on them. They will innovate.
Actually private companies (sectoral ones atleast) are likely to absorb know-how. But Alpha defence is itself a 49% owned company by elbit to start with! so maybe not in this case but definitely right direction.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

YashG wrote:
nam wrote:Sky Striker may be a screw driver order, however unlike DPSU, Alpha Design has a self-interest in driving the cost down to improve profits, by producing maximum number of parts locally.

It would like to bag more orders, potentially offer improved solutions to the forces to keep driving the business. They will form R&D collaboration to provide better solutions. Despite not being a perfect deal, it is a move in the right direction.

The key: give large orders to private companies and put cost pressure on them. They will innovate.
Actually private companies (sectoral ones atleast) are likely to absorb know-how. But Alpha defence is itself a 49% owned company by elbit to start with! so maybe not in this case but definitely right direction.
IIRC, there are political connections that have pushed one company.

costs will only go up and never down.

There are defence and automotive JV's in India where the foreign tech is both islanded and ring fenced. Black boxes are pre assembled and integrated into the system.

The personnel and the development facilities are restricted from other work spaces to the extent that internet connections are from different service providers and the software resides exclusively on foreign hosted servers.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by nam »

All the deals won by Alpha Design has been based on RFP & L1. There is nothing political about it.

The change being, after being bought by Adani, Alpha Design has now got the financial backing of a large organisation to give a taste of the medicine to DPSU like BEL.

They are fundamentally quoting low with solid technical capability. This is allowing them to win the tenders.

Anyways, past couple of weeks have seen major deals being given to M&M, Zen, Alpha design & NewSpace. This should bring lot of happiness across the private ecosystem, who have been begging for orders. Will also encourage new startups in the defence areas, when they see such orders coming through.

Alpha even won the IFF deal based on CABS tech. ToT was given to Alpha, Data Pattern & BEL. This will encourage private companies to take the tech from DRDO and produce it at lower cost than DPSU.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

jamwal wrote:These are just foreign maal being assembled in India to get locally made tag. Just like Boat, Xiaomi brands type business model.
Not necessarily the final outcome. If Alpha does a good job at low cost, Elbit may outsource further work on the SkyStriker to them including assembly of some parts, final assembly etc. That too brings in future revenue and expertise beyond this deal itself. It has happened in other deals with other firms already, and Alpha itself exports some Israeli designed gear abroad under its deal with Elbit.
Brahmos JV had Russian scientists contributing their expertise and Indians providing bulk of finance and tech. In products like these, Indians are offering just the outlet for sale and final assembly. AFAIK. It is already a well established product which has already seen combat service,
Brahmos is a different kind of deal because of the amount of funding and customization required, but even this could be expanded onwards to something similar if we push for it.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

nam wrote:All the deals won by Alpha Design has been based on RFP & L1. There is nothing political about it.

The change being, after being bought by Adani, Alpha Design has now got the financial backing of a large organisation to give a taste of the medicine to DPSU like BEL.

They are fundamentally quoting low with solid technical capability. This is allowing them to win the tenders.

Anyways, past couple of weeks have seen major deals being given to M&M, Zen, Alpha design & NewSpace. This should bring lot of happiness across the private ecosystem, who have been begging for orders. Will also encourage new startups in the defence areas, when they see such orders coming through.

Alpha even won the IFF deal based on CABS tech. ToT was given to Alpha, Data Pattern & BEL. This will encourage private companies to take the tech from DRDO and produce it at lower cost than DPSU.
Agree on all points. There is no reason why a small firm like Alpha should be excluded from deals as versus BEL etc if they are fundamentally doing the same thing, at lower costs. BEL should focus more and more on working with DRDO for true know-how and joint R&D as versus trying to finagle these license production deals, which only add the DPSU's higher cost structure to a limited production run, making it more expensive for the services which have a limited budget to begin with.

The only political part of the deals is that Alpha is part owned by Elbit iirc, so of course Elbit would prefer to give its technology licensing to its own subsidiary. This would be bad for India if by taking this, BEL etc would have actually been better off, but history shows even the DPSUs rarely build upon imported tech to break IP, reverse engineer it, whereas their only true learnings come from JVs with DRDO, so they might as well let these smaller firms take up these deals or make better offers.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

chetak wrote:costs will only go up and never down.
Costs can definitely go down with more and more localization (as versus the DPSU style huge green field projects to "absorb TOT" which result in that additional cost being tacked onto an imported product).
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Vayutuvan »

Costs adjusted for inflation will go down with more production. Economies of scale.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by ramana »

chetak, these splitting hairs to boycott foreign vendors ensured that the Indian military is unarmed while politicians made money!
Indian military getting 100 armed drones is a good thing.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by YashG »

For a long time foreign defence companies were not biting the JV route so GoI increased participation to 49% from 26%. Now we should be okay that companies are biting that bullet.

Im sure if this JV instrument gathers momentum, credibility - there will be eventual absorption and acceleration of pvt sector. Also given indian JV can sell israeli wares to a lot more countries who would not buy from israel directly. Maybe this was on the mind of elbit guys too when doing the JV and production in India.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by nam »

Even if our private companies are using JV & ToT to produce in India, this creates a massive ecosystem of trained professional and tech guys, who would have cut their teeth producing top class products.

This is the key. L&T is producing 70% of K9 from local raw materials. There might be some black box tech which L&T might not have received ToT, however they are the ones testing these modules. They know the exact function of these black boxes.

L&T has the financial power to hire enough people with hardware & software knowledge to create this black box. The key is L&T wants to get the tech & improve on it. They are not waiting for some babu signing off funding papers and chai biskoot sessions. Overnight we have a alternate armor producer. How long will L&T take to absorb Arjun or T90 production if required?

BF has built an artillery portfolio within a decade. Because they want to and they could. OFB has been building artillery longer than BF.. what do they have?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Pratyush »

It's quite interesting to see comparison between OFB and a Pvt sector company.

The question I find really interesting is the autonomy available to the OFB. WRT, development of armament.

Do they have any budgetary space to develop any weapons.

What is the level of autonomy WRT, human resource management.

Absent apples to apples comparison. It is not really justified to question OFB.

Because, OFB is a tool under the MOD. If MOD as the master has been okay with the performance of the OFB to such an extent that they did not bother to reform it until now. Then the fault with the performance of OFB is with the MOD which controls it.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by jamwal »

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... stems.html

EXCLUSIVE: Indian military under target by Chinese origin surveillance systems
Alarmed over an alert by the apex security and intelligence agencies, flagging serious concerns on 'possible threat' of data loss through surveillance cameras especially Chinese origin installed at various military establishments across the country, the Indian navy headquarters has asked all its bases and units to remove this closed-circuit television (CCTV) surveillance systems.

According to internal communication, reviewed by The Week, the Integrated Defence Headquarters of Ministry of Defence (MoD), one of the market leaders in surveillance cameras is Hikvision, which has 41 per cent Chinese government holding and it is operating in India through an Indian company's collaboration. The modules of these cameras systems are supplied by the Chinese firm, however, these products are marketed as 'Made in India', MoD letter claims. And, according to an estimate, Hikvision enjoys over 35 per cent market share in India. Besides, bagging a contract to install 1.5 lakh CCTVs cameras in Delhi, the Chinese firm is believed to have supplied solutions to Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC). Moreover, it is also one of the vendors for Bharat Electronics (BEL) that works on highly sensitive and classified defence projects in India.
Mango public should boycott Chinese maal, while defence and sarkar will keep on doing full on pappi-jhappi.
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Post by Prem Kumar »

Not just that. It exposes the "Made in India" sham for what it is - do some screwdrivergiri, re-label and publicize it as "We support Atmanirbhar"
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Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:chetak, these splitting hairs to boycott foreign vendors ensured that the Indian military is unarmed while politicians made money!
Indian military getting 100 armed drones is a good thing.
no one disputing the acquisition of the drones.

just pointing out that unless the foreign country permits their JV partners to bring in high tech/cutting edge tech into the JV, the JV partner, whomsoever it may be, is dead in the water.

All weapons related tech/dual use tech are, first and foremost, the subject of negotiations and agreement between two govts. That done, suitable and likely partners are identified, financials are discussed and agreed upon, along with detailed service level performance parameters, tech, and guarantee support, spares, and repair/upgrade support.

will the loadouts on the drones come as part of the package or is that a separate deal, as I suspect it will be.

This also means that the cheeni, in addition to bringing in drones of their own, will probably sell similar drones to the pakis, and then we will have another paki /+ cheeni threat vector to contend with and defend against.

If armed drones are to be used for balakot type strikes, then a whole new dimension has just been opened up in this region with far reaching implications that will need the efforts of a lot of strategists and analysts to understand, game realistically, and think through before advising the authorities so that a viable operational doctrine can be evolved.

If the danger of "ejecting pilots being captured by the enemy and the political/national implications of the fallout thereof" is taken out of the equation then it is a game changer and the pakis are firmly back in the equation.
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Post by chetak »

Prem Kumar wrote:Not just that. It exposes the "Made in India" sham for what it is - do some screwdrivergiri, re-label and publicize it as "We support Atmanirbhar"
there is no scam or sham

the cheeni and paki steal the tech whereas Modi has devised this method to try and get the high tech to India and in a transparent way so that Indian industry can absorb, adapt, and later innovate.

what you call "screwdrivergiri" is usually an assembly from CKD kits and is a well known process that is utilized in the initial stages of production, especially where the product is of foreign origin.

A lot of the high end cars and bikes in India are from CKD kits

All you really need to make a really good AK-47 is to invest in a good metal stamping facility and get the other few odds and ends outsourced with proper QC at every stage. This is not beyond the capability of a run of the mill, mid sized, lala industrialist.

And yet, the GoI has not chosen this rip off route and that, by itself, should tell you a lot
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Vips »

Hansa-NG makes first flight.

The National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) said that the new generation HANSA (Hansa-NG), a two-seater aircraft designed and developed by it, successfully made its maiden flight of 20 minutes on Friday.

“The aircraft took off from HAL airport at 2.09pm and flew at an altitude of 4,000ft and gained a speed of 80 knots before landing,” NAL said. Test
pilot Captain Amit Dahiya, who piloted the aircraft, described the first flight as a “textbook mission” where all parameters were normal.
“The unique features of HANSA-NG are the glass cockpit with cabin comfort, high efficient digitally-controlled engine, electrically operated
flaps, long endurance, low acquisition and operating cost,” NAL said.

NAL has already received 72 letters of intent (LoIs) from various flying clubs and the aircraft, NAL said, will be certified in the next four months after which the process of induction would begin.

Friday’s flight was monitored in telemetry by senior officers and scientists from the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) and the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (Cemilac).

Shekhar C Mande, secretary, DSIR (dept of scientific and industrial research), under which NAL operates, said a private player has already been identified for series production of the aircraft.

As reported by TOI earlier, HANSA-NG was rolled out on March 31, 2021, and at the time, NAL had 30 LoIs from flying clubs for the purchase of the new aircraft.

HANSA-NG is an upgraded version of HANSA, which saw the first flight in 1993, and was certified in 2000. Between 2000 and 2007, NAL developed 12 HANSA aircraft which were delivered to flying clubs across India through the DGCA (directorate general of civil aviation). It has since logged more than 4,000 flying hours with IIT-Kanpur still flying the aircraft.

The Centre approved HANSA-NG in 2018 and NAL retro-modified HANSA-3 aircraft with a glass cockpit and got it certified by DGCA.
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Post by Pratyush »

Is HANSA NG a replacement for the Cessna 152?
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Post by jaysimha »

23 IITs To Host Research And Development Fair: Education Minister
04 September, 2021

Under the auspices of the 'Azaadi ka Amirt Mahotsav' programme, the R&D expo of all 23 IITs is slated to take place in the second half of November 2021 to commemorate the 75th year of Indian independence.
http://bweducation.businessworld.in/art ... 21-403234/
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Post by YashG »

jamwal wrote:https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... stems.html

EXCLUSIVE: Indian military under target by Chinese origin surveillance systems
Alarmed over an alert by the apex security and intelligence agencies, flagging serious concerns on 'possible threat' of data loss through surveillance cameras especially Chinese origin installed at various military establishments across the country, the Indian navy headquarters has asked all its bases and units to remove this closed-circuit television (CCTV) surveillance systems.

According to internal communication, reviewed by The Week, the Integrated Defence Headquarters of Ministry of Defence (MoD), one of the market leaders in surveillance cameras is Hikvision, which has 41 per cent Chinese government holding and it is operating in India through an Indian company's collaboration. The modules of these cameras systems are supplied by the Chinese firm, however, these products are marketed as 'Made in India', MoD letter claims. And, according to an estimate, Hikvision enjoys over 35 per cent market share in India. Besides, bagging a contract to install 1.5 lakh CCTVs cameras in Delhi, the Chinese firm is believed to have supplied solutions to Delhi Metro Rail Corporation (DMRC). Moreover, it is also one of the vendors for Bharat Electronics (BEL) that works on highly sensitive and classified defence projects in India.
Mango public should boycott Chinese maal, while defence and sarkar will keep on doing full on pappi-jhappi.
This was an alarm that could have come 5 years ago. I'm quite thankful to china to have awakened us to our own national interest. I hope the heated borders, whir us into action. Eventually this would be good for growth too.
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Post by nam »

Mashallah... look at the size of that MF radar 8)
Image
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 16800?s=20 ---> HAL says it has received interest from Philippines Coast Guard for procurement of 7 ALH Dhruv and 8 Do-228 aircraft through Government of India Line of Credit.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 52517?s=20 ---> So, HAL has begun the design & development of an amphibian/seaplane variant of the Do-228 platform.
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Post by jaysimha »

India seeks to create $5 billion worth of defence equipment by 2025, says DRDO
The aim is to fight the next war with Indian weapons, said DRDO Director General (Technology Management) Hari Babu Srivastava

Press Trust of India
September 04, 2021 08:41:13 IST


He made the remarks at the launch of Amity University's M Tech in Defence Technology course, its joint programme with the DRDO and the All India Council for Technical Education (AICTE).
https://www.firstpost.com/india/india-s ... 36731.html
https://www.amity.edu/gurugram/pdf/defe ... ochure.pdf
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Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 64453?s=20 ---> SASMOS-GKN Aerospace JV in India wins USD multi-million wiring contract from Saab for Boeing-Saab T-7A.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 57026?s=20 ---> Under the multi-year contract, FE-SIL will deliver the required wiring systems for the advanced aircraft’s aft fuselage. The first EWIS ship-set is scheduled for delivery in 2022 from FE-SIL’s Centre of Excellence for Aircraft Harnesses in Bangalore.

https://twitter.com/TejForTweet/status/ ... 21376?s=20 ---> The same JV is targetting a good chunk of work in our Tejas program. GKN recently has started paying good attention to HAL's supply chain and trying to pitch themselves in.

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Post by jamwal »

https://theprint.in/opinion/brahmastra/ ... en/731118/


Rafale, S-400 or C-295, all came from out-of-the-box thinking. India should do it more often
Recent defence deals have been successful only because they were made through unconventional means, circumventing the long and tedious procurement processes.
The genesis of the recent contracts given to Indian startups for drones by the armed forces can be traced back to a 2018 competition organised by the IAF — Mehar Baba Swarm Drone Competition. It was unique because the IAF had said the winners could bag a defence contract for swarm drones worth about Rs 100 crore.

This procurement route bypassed the conventional process of issuing Requests for Proposals (RFP), conducting trials, cost negotiation and finally contract signing. The IAF had used the Buy Indian (designed, developed and manufactured) category that was introduced in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016. This was also unconventional because the IAF was handholding the firms and extending help in raising the bar in every round.

The end result was that two of the five firms that topped the competition – Bengaluru-based NewSpace Research and Tech, and Noida-based Raphe mPhibr Pvt Ltd — bagged contracts from the Army.

While Raphe along with NewSpace got contract for swarm drones, the former also bagged two separate contracts from the Army for supplying 48 Medium Altitude Logistics Drones and one from the Navy for 10 High Endurance payload carrying drones.

Now the two manufacturers, along with three others who were part of the top five — Veda Defence Systems Pvt Ltd, Dhaksha Unmanned Systems Pvt Ltd and Flaire Unmanned Systems Pvt Ltd — will soon be competing for a larger IAF contract.

Similarly, the deals for S-400, Rafale and the C-295 were also unconventional. In the case of C-295, it will be the first time when local private industry would be making a military plane in India. The fact that the cost negotiations committee (CNC) was headed by an IAF officer, unlike a bureaucrat from the defence ministry, also added to the uniqueness of the deal. Similarly, the CNCs for both the S-400 and the Rafale were also led by IAF officers. The net result was that decisions were taken faster because the officers knew how critical the systems were.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 34155?s=20 ---> Indian shipyard GRSE has signed a MoU with France's DCNS (Naval Group) to offer high-end surface warships based on state of the art Gowind design to export market. Partnership will focus on surface shipbuilding, using design & technology assistance from French DCNS (Naval Group).

Info on the Gowind Class ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowind-class_design
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by YashG »

GRSE, Naval Group team on Gowind vessels
https://www.janes.com/amp/grse-naval-gr ... Fp1cVMwPQ2
"The memorandum of understanding (MOU) was signed in New Delhi and supports co-operation on building the French group's Gowind-class vessel for India and export markets."
Looks like just a way to dip into some orders from India. Export orders look like a bait! its just MoU right now. I'd be happy if the this collaboration will go ahead irrespective of Indian orders coming or not.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 34155?s=20 ---> Indian shipyard GRSE has signed a MoU with France's DCNS (Naval Group) to offer high-end surface warships based on state of the art Gowind design to export market. Partnership will focus on surface shipbuilding, using design & technology assistance from French DCNS (Naval Group).

Info on the Gowind Class ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gowind-class_design
The Mistrals could be useful given India's requirement for amphibious assault ships.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by venkat_kv »

Vivek K wrote:
venkat_kv wrote:
Vivek K Saar,
What you have pointed out with HF-24/Marut shows the limitations of what you are trying to propose, isn't it? My info on HF-24 is based on what was debated on the forum. It was still under powered with the orpheus engines I believe. With the Adour engines, the air force had lost interest by then and with the russians coming through the wars we had more or less become dependent on russian wares with the mig 21 coming in as the latest fighter.
Your response shows how tough it is for an Indian to think he can beat the world.

As for the Marut, you need to research about Its development a bit more. And you will see my point. Here are some key posts

From Google chacha

"By 1963 the decision had been taken to adhere to the Orpheus 703 engine as the basic powerplant of the Maruta Mk 1, but to do everything possible to increase its performance. The Orpheus 703 reheat made use of Bristol Siddeley techniques and advice, but was basically a product of HAL's Engine Division and reflects that organization's steadily growing self-sufficiency. The Orpheus 703 Reheat, as the engine is known, had a maximum rating in the 6,500 to 7,0001b class. A three-squadron batch of the just-supersonic Maruta Mkl ground attacker was built with Hindustan-made Orpheus 703R engines, with an afterburner of HAL design. The Government was unwilling to sanction Rs 5 crores to Bristol Siddeley for development of the afterburning follow-on engine to the Orpheus 703 as its power plant".

And from Rohit Vats' blog:
As for now, I produce excerpts from autobiography of Air Vice Marshal SN Roy Chowdhury. These excerpts tell you about the little know efforts made by GTRE to power HF-24 with a reheat engine and how, the obstinacy of Professor Kurt Tank and Indian members of design team at HAL, prevented this venture from reaching its logical conclusion.

Research this and see how the import lobby stopped GTRE's development of the basic Orpheus and then used the crash of the prototype to kill the development and also the HF-24 program. The crash occurred because the canopy opened on take off and did not fly away.

We have been told lies about how the Marut failed due to engine problems. Solutions were available, GTRE requested a tail section re-design which Kurt Tank and HAL would not allow (per the AVM).

Since this was a GTRE development, with its success, HAL could have exported the HF-24.
And I am not sure by what you mean by strategic partner. khan and the bear are hardly any definition of reliability if their behavior with respect to chinese India, pak India, or the syrian issues are to be seen. We obviously don't want to be seen as rent boys for these powers or fight their battles. We are following everything that we have signed in our deals, although i can't say the same for the Khan, Bear and Cheen.
You seem a little confused. Where did you come across that India needs to be "rent boys for anybody in my post?

Answer this - why does Pakistan exist today? Why did IG stop the war in '71 when Pakis were defeated in the East and it was a matter of time before they folded in the West. IAF had air superiority and Pakis had no nukes. PN was decimated and we could have struck Karachi at will by air or sea. Would Pakistan have stopped the war if they were in our position? This is what I mean by strategic partner - one that takes decisions in its interests.

And in '62 - IAF had an edge over the PLAAF - yet Nehru in his infinite wisdom did not allow the IAF to attack the Chinese troops! Sound strategy? If we won't defend ourselves, who will?

We claim to have assembled Jaguars, Migs 21s (several types), Sukhois. What did that teach us? Look at the LCA and the Marut - how much they taught us? Yes the Rafale is better than the LCA - but the LCA is close. Build your own factories (good strategy), refuse imports (good strategy). Necessity is the mother of invention!
Vivek K Saar,
With due respect, a little of your post seems to be more of a hindsight 20/20, HAL itself is a desi company, but were against the GTRE after burning engine solution? It would seem with one Indian company blocking another Indian company even though they have no core competency or a similar/superior product. But 5 crores in 1960's was a really high amount for just an engine development, (on another note maybe if we don't spend 1 or 2 billion for the hot engine section R/D or collaboration fees then we might lament the same in 20 years).

All the wars that India fought with hindsight analysis will offer solutions, but were we in the know then when the actual event took place. the 1948 kashmir Ceasefire, 1965 war ammo info regarding India and pakistan that was revealed later and the 1971 issue on the western front in hindsight can give some solutions. but do we have the same info when the actual event was taking place in the fog of war and the pressure that India had to face from then world powers and coupled with our own assesment of objectives and tactics and intel assesments.

Indian bureaucracy seem to be mostly in bean counting business where they try to make something more out of the deal atleast on paper(we can sell the same product to different countries, set up servicing for the same in the country and so on if this deal is signed). It can be more of a scenario where they didn't see the sales to other countries and the price tag didn't "justify" the expenditure.

But we atleast on BRF should be able to track these and offer atleast pointers in what can be an efficient way moving forward. I mean here we are almost 40 years after Marut, but dealing with the same issues we seem to have plane with a very good design but don't yet have the engine manufacturing in India. Marut was designed by Kurt Tank and our Tejas has been by ADA and it has led to a variety of reaserch in displays, weapons, radars, manufacturing and elsewhere. So we should keep plodding away and keep doing everything in our power to move to the secure ourselves first and foremost. If that means keeping our head down and collaborating with other Western powers for the next 5-10 years and paying them then so be it in my opinion.

We were willing to buy the F-16 if it helped us get the etch from GE. there was a report where during Trump admin GE had refused the tech satting that engine division was the only one that was making money and they can't part with it or atleast that was the usual open source info said at that time.

This is more of hedging our bets i believe rather than "how Indians think they cant beat the world so to speak". The air force needs to be brought on board if needs be and made the project manager, but this along with a billion dollars will not guarantee a working engine in x years, but might shave off y years off in research and with a bit of collaboration if needed, we could possible get there sooner. This is what i think in this scenario atleast when it comes to Tejas.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by jaysimha »

Unmanned Ground Vehicles: Augmenting Our Frontline Warriors
Brig Arvind Dhananjayan (Retd) Mon, 13 Sep 2021


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Prototype UGV Based on NAMICA: Source- drdo.gov.in

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Major Sub-Systems of MUNTRA UGV: Source- drdo.gov.in

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System Configuration of Project MUNTRA

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Daksh ROV


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Tele-operated BD 50 Dozer

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Bharat Forge’s ECAR UGV:


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Sooran UGV

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MARS UGV:

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Conceptual Diagram of UCGV:

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DRDO Roadmap for UGV Development:


hope all are inducted and operational soon

https://chanakyaforum.com/unmanned-grou ... -warriors/
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Pratyush »

Alpha defence is reporting that CVRDE 1500 HP engine is ready.

A 600 hp engine is also ready.

https://alphadefense.in/cvrde-1500-hp-engine/
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by SRajesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 52517?s=20 ---> So, HAL has begun the design & development of an amphibian/seaplane variant of the Do-228 platform.
Rakeshji
I was looking at the Specifications of Do-228 vs ShinMaywa US-2
Do-228 half the size of Shin but capable of same number of passengers.
Major difference in Max Takeoff weight Do-228:6,575 kg (14,495 lb) vs Shin:47,700 kg (105,160 lb) land take-off
Two vs Four Turboprop's
228: Range: 396 km (246 mi, 214 nmi) with 1,960 kg (4,321 lb) payload vs Shin:Range: 4,700 km (2,900 mi, 2,500 nmi)
Shinmaywa deal never happened.
If HAL do come up with Amphi variant ?? what role in the Navy or Coast Guard??
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Avinandan »

^^ conparison on Seastate level ?
I believe Shinmayva is one of the very few amphibians managing seastate 6 or 7
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Cyrano »

Newbie pooch:

UGCVs and UCAVs can be signal jammed no? Using traditional jammers or EMP?

In the case of UCAVs like Predator drones or CATS, how is signal lag managed when the craft is flying at high speeds and far away from the operator?
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