India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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P Chitkara
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby P Chitkara » 12 Sep 2014 10:28

Agree here. More money needs to be pumped to defense R&D to build up relevant infrastructure and human resources after inefficiencies in current system have been taken care of.

Shoestring budgets can take us only that far.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2014 11:15

Both have to go hand in hand, sequential stuff won't work in the Indian context.

From the organizational side:

You need to rapidly upscale infra, investments in defence R&D, give the govt firms more autonomy (DPSUs are infamous for being used as cushy parking spots for favored bureaucrats/politician joyrides), provide a level playing field for the private sector & also protect & nurture the SME/MSME sector which are the backbone of our MIC in many ways. The increased competition will also promote accountability & give more options.

From the coordination side:
Create either defence program clusters which are transparent, meet regularly and have accountability. Also, you need to have the services to commit to product development groups from their side, funding & also give firm commitments about product support & induction with firm orders & not use local programs as TDs for negotiating for imports.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2014 16:35

Fantastic writeup on the origins of Kanchan armor from the horses mouth, its creator.

http://www.inae.in/newsletter/artmar1.pdf

My Tryst with Indigenous Armour Development
Dr T. Balakrishna Bhat


Born little after India’s independence, as a child,
I used to imagine and feel that I owned the
whole great country. My father was a respected school headmaster who used to get respectful
salutations from members of nearly every house situated all along a seven kilometer long
path of walk to his school through hills and fields. He would reciprocate with appropriate
affectionate words without stopping his walk. It was a thrill to walk with him. My mother
would often be cheerfully singing tunes and hymns while taking care of the small farm, all
the workers, children, cows and guests with infinite patience and love. It was a great joy to do
every type of work to help her and receive her blessings. Early in the morning, every day,
father would gently wake me up by teaching me shlokas, maths, words, spellings and
grammar while sitting by my bedside even as I lay on the bed with closed eyes, and end the
day similarly at night. This process I believe gaveme many things, including a habit of not
wasting a single moment from the time one wakes upto the moment one falls asleep.

At the age of 14, I joined Sri Ramakrishna Mission Balakashram at Mangalore where the
rigorous discipline of perfectly doing all the chores along with studies toughened the mind-
body system. Here I had the chance to tutor (free)classmates and younger students, which
increased my grasp on the subject and also strengthened my self-confidence.

In 1967, I joined the B.Tech programme at IIT Madras. Here, I concentrated totally on
understanding the principles and deeper aspects rather than on securing grades. This quest
made me read a large number of books and to some extent journals available in the Institute
library where I would often sit up until it closed late in the night. After B.tech, I secured
admission with scholarship to do PhD at Washington State University, but, when I learnt that
USA had sent its 7th fleet in readiness to attack India during the Bangladesh conflict, I
changed my mind. Instead, I went to IISc Bangalore to study M.E from where DMRL
recruited me.


At DMRL, for the first six months or so, I visited
all the groups and glanced through all the
books and journals and generated hundreds of resear
ch ideas. Initially I worked on TEM and
intermetallic alloy systems. One day, Dr. V.S. Arun
achalam, who had joined as our new
director called me aside and in his characteristic
excited way asked me whether I prefer to
work on pure science and maybe hope to get a Noble
prize one day, or work on an important
development work. Because of the training at IIT, p
roud to be an engineer, I immediately
chose the latter path.

Next day Dr. Arunachalam called me to his office and excitedly explained the scattered notings in his little diary
about the Chobham armour trials shown in a hazy way in England to the visiting Chief of Army Staff and asked me if we can quickly develop and demonstrate a similar one. Though I knew nothing, I sensed that every atom in my body was excited.
First I made a quick dash to TBRL, ARDE and weapons related laboratories studying all available reports and papers to understand the nature of the threats and their operating principles and mechanisms. To find some solution, I went into a contemplative enquiry mode and scanned the rather difficult journals such as “Journal of Applied Physics” at the libraries in IISc and TIFR to look for sound principles based on which one can construct appropriate armour materials on our own ab initio. Various ideas such as Konda’s effect, deflection of shockwaves, splitting of the jets, avoiding momentum multiplication, using extremely high viscosities of glass like substances, facilitating lateral dispersal of momentum and energy, breaking up the projectiles or deflecting the proje ctiles etc. were conceived. Appropriate tailor made materials and structures were thought of. It was realized that while in most engineering materials and applications we need to maximize strength, sometimes strength and toughness, in armour we need to maximize the product of strength, ductility and the volume that participates in energy absorption. Increased speed of plastic wave and increased homogeneity of strain that accompanies it is critical. These are unique requirements. Further,it was observed that while homogeneous deformation is key for maximizing energy
absorption, inhomogeneous flow is desirable for momentum absorption such as in the case of HEAT and for turning or breaking the shots. For dissipating or absorbing shocks, layered structures should be preferred. Accordingly, many new materials and structures were conceived and made.


The first results of the trials on the HEAT rounds came within a few months and, may be for
the beginner’s luck, were truly fantastic. Soon, larger samples were made and tested at PXE
Balasore. The plates not only defeated the HEAT rounds but also withstood the KE, APDS
rounds. The round was trapped inside. To see what happened to it, the plate was brought to
DMRL. It was cut open the same night to see what actually happened to the shot. I and Dr. Arunachalam walked from Lab Quarters to DMRL at well past midnight to examine the plate from inside. To our shock, the shot was not inside, hiding, but had actually broken up to fine dust!


It was an exciting beginning. A comprehensive and confident programme thus began at
DMRL. Using a variety of starting materials such as ceramics, hard steels, tough composites, and
energetic explosives, the armour programme advanced in many directions to meet a host of
challenging requirements. Success after success came in the form of armour system for MBTArjun and its continuously improving features. For T-72 Ajeya and for T-90 the required armour technology was developed indigenously. Armour for light vehicles, helicopters and many other applications like lancer helicopter, Vijayanta tank, ICV-Abhay and Mi-17
helicopters also emerged out of the programme to meet the requirements. It gives great satisfaction and excitement to me and my research team.


More than 20,000 tonnes of various armour materials have been produced to meet the various requirements. An Armour Technology Centre has been set up in the 700 acres of land specially acquired for the purpose.

There are a few critical factors which I believe have contributed to the above successes in the tryst with indigenous armour development:
1.Full trust, support and freedom provided by the organization.
2.From the user’s side, the area of protection is one thing that is close to the heart of every member from soldier to the chief, and evokes spontaneous, deeply supportive and encouraging responses.

My heartfelt acknowledgement is to my family and wo rk related family whose unfathomabledepth of emotions, support and commitment has enabled the attainment of deeply satisfying results in my tryst with destiny in the service of the nation, which reconfirms my childhood feeling that I indeed own the whole country is correct. I also acknowledge that while something has been do ne, there is a lot more to be done and forever so.

Jai Hind

ramana
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2014 19:43

What he figured out was how to use the equation of state for his application.
A very good account of how starting from fundamentals helps come to a swift solution.

I think what really helped was his thirst to study fundas and apply them. Many people who study fundas solve problems in their mind and when it comes to application it doesn't work.

The shot ground to dust as the armor was too tough and wouldn't allow it to penetrate. In effect the compression stress wave, due to the impact, in the shot broke it up!!!!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vishvak » 12 Sep 2014 21:35

Wow, this desi R&D tech could be among the best in the world. Superb article. Another one such an article was linked on BRF a while back that was an interview with Tejas team man who set up logistic supply over 30 years. This mahAshaya did a lot of good RnD as also production runs.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2014 22:56

This also explains why the DMRL team was so happy with Kanchan and why the IA wanted it on all tanks it could be fitted, including Vijayanta. And its been upgraded further since then.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 12 Sep 2014 22:58

Hecky's follow on post.

hecky wrote:@DRDO Techfocus - August 2009
Image

---------------------------

DRDO Technology Focus Archive: Link

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby partha » 13 Sep 2014 01:23

Karan M wrote:Fantastic writeup on the origins of Kanchan armor from the horses mouth, its creator.

http://www.inae.in/newsletter/artmar1.pdf

My Tryst with Indigenous Armour Development
Dr T. Balakrishna Bhat



Indeed. It is always good to read or hear people who have worked on the projects which get discussed so passionately on this forum. I didn't know such basic research went into development of Kanchan armor. There was another good blog post link (posted by shivji many moons ago in some other thread which I have saved) by Prof Prodyut Das who worked on Kaveri engine.

What do you guys think about a separate thread to collect articles, blog posts, interviews from/of people who have worked on Indian defence projects?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 13 Sep 2014 01:43


Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 03:24

partha wrote:Indeed. It is always good to read or hear people who have worked on the projects which get discussed so passionately on this forum. I didn't know such basic research went into development of Kanchan armor. There was another good blog post link (posted by shivji many moons ago in some other thread which I have saved) by Prof Prodyut Das who worked on Kaveri engine.


IIRC Das never worked on Kaveri. He is ex HAL and dislikes ADA et al with a passion (he regards them as usurpers).

What do you guys think about a separate thread to collect articles, blog posts, interviews from/of people who have worked on Indian defence projects?


The aim of this thread was for the exact purpose - to catalog, track & document the work being done by these yeomen/women in the MIC - public or private. The hope was that folks who actually work in these orgs would also from time to time register and share some progress (non classified, public material).

Instead, every now & then, a bunch of folks who neither work for or contribute to any of these organizations come and engage in trolling based on whatever brainf@rt is going through them at the moment, "all these are morons", "XYZ is useless". These folks neither work for or help India in any manner viz defense, but are always ready to dump their brilliance on the contributions of others. And that is what is disruptive.

Its only balanced out by discussions like the one above on semiconductors.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby RoyG » 13 Sep 2014 10:58

Karan M wrote:Both have to go hand in hand, sequential stuff won't work in the Indian context.

From the organizational side:

You need to rapidly upscale infra, investments in defence R&D, give the govt firms more autonomy (DPSUs are infamous for being used as cushy parking spots for favored bureaucrats/politician joyrides), provide a level playing field for the private sector & also protect & nurture the SME/MSME sector which are the backbone of our MIC in many ways. The increased competition will also promote accountability & give more options.

From the coordination side:
Create either defence program clusters which are transparent, meet regularly and have accountability. Also, you need to have the services to commit to product development groups from their side, funding & also give firm commitments about product support & induction with firm orders & not use local programs as TDs for negotiating for imports.


This is probably the best option. Eventually, its going to be hard for the "autonomous" DPSU's to survive in such an environment. Companies like Kalyani Forge, Tata, etc. are just going to eat up all the market share eventually. That's not to say there won't be role for the public sector. Perhaps, it may be cheaper for the gov to just produce small caliber ammunition, boots, etc. but for anything more sophisticated, I don't really think they stand a chance in the long run. I can see DRDO turning into a DARPA. The last thing to go will probably be ASL and other agencies which work on strategic missile projects. Not much movement on this front from the private sector.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_19648 » 13 Sep 2014 11:51

^^ Don't think any of the above will happen anytime soon though.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby chackojoseph » 13 Sep 2014 12:11

NRao wrote:Govt should buy Indian military hardware: Ex-Army chief

everyone is falling over each other?


Gen Shankar Roychowdhury was a great proponent of Indian hardware.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 13:02

RoyG wrote:This is probably the best option. Eventually, its going to be hard for the "autonomous" DPSU's to survive in such an environment. Companies like Kalyani Forge, Tata, etc. are just going to eat up all the market share eventually. That's not to say there won't be role for the public sector. Perhaps, it may be cheaper for the gov to just produce small caliber ammunition, boots, etc. but for anything more sophisticated, I don't really think they stand a chance in the long run.


All nations continue to maintain critical Govt facilities to run their most critical classified work. Whether it be the US with Los Alamos or the US Navy maintaining its own facility to machine screws/run prop design for its subs.
In India, the DPSUs will continue to be tasked with many of the critical programs and will complement the private sector firms & compete with them. Strategic programs which require long lead time, but significant investment programs (which mean the private sector will be leery of investment as they cannot monetize fast) will continue to be run by the DPSUs. Companies like BEL, ECIL etc have huge infrastructure & at best, will be partly divested to bring in more autonomy to the board.

I can see DRDO turning into a DARPA. The last thing to go will probably be ASL and other agencies which work on strategic missile projects. Not much movement on this front from the private sector.


DRDO cannot be a DARPA because the Indian industry is nowhere near the US industry in terms of maturity and will take decades to make the transition. DRDO hence, cannot sit around and farm out programs and only focus on some bleeding edge stuff without a clear mandate on mission capable programs. In India, due to our lack of R&D & general lack of infra across the sector, DRDO, CSIR & Govt labs have to continue to do the heavy lifting in basic engineering - eg materials ( metallurgy, composites, plastics), chemicals (propellants, explosives), electronics (semiconductors, sensors) and applied engineering assistance (machinery, tooling). Without these, the private sector will go nowhere.
In an ideal world, DRDO would happily sit and do high level design, and merely farm out contracts to assorted firms for subsystems, and even designate an integrator for delivering, managing the lifecycle of the complete system. In India, there is no such thing. They have to handhold multiple organizations to develop each subsystem and component, from valves to computers and that is their mandate. This adds to cost & timelines but makes our systems relatively future proof. The other alternative is to import first & indigenize later as HAL has done with some programs, focusing only on the critical assemblies. That may speed up things in the short term, but leaves us vulnerable when systems fail or support is required over the long term.


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 16:04

Hecky, interesting, those Arjun MK2 glacis plates could be passive arrays - and the future approach is clearly laid out:
Kanchan type composite armor as backstop + intelligent Dynamic Armor vs KE (think of Ukrainian Knife ERA but activated by sensors to "cut" KE projectiles in pieces), dynamic passive armor (as on the pics) vs HEAT + Active Protection System vs HEAT & KE.
This is real cutting edge stuff. APS I presume, they will work on w/Israel. There was already a reference from a CVRDE person on the APS.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Ranjani Brow » 13 Sep 2014 16:18

Image

(posted by an Indian member on some other fora)

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 16:26

Interesting! But that could be a steel backstop as well. There doesnt appear to be sufficient separation between the array and its base as on the DPA pic. ERA Mk-2 as mentioned above is basically equal in performance to Kontakt-V.

This pic seems to be ERA: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _front.JPG
Logically, if you can include ERA effective against both KE/HEAT why rely on DPA (vs HEAT) alone, unless weight is a concern.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Suresh S » 13 Sep 2014 16:48

Karan,

thanks for posting the inspiring story of Dr Bhat. story says it all .With namo,s inauguration Hindustan ke train ne station chore dia hai ab isko devta bhe nahe rok sakte.
Jai Hind

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 13 Sep 2014 18:43

At what point in time will all this neat work be incorporated directly into a design? Are there plans for moving in such directions? (Asking).

An Arjun MK-3/4/5?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby SaiK » 13 Sep 2014 19:54

It will not! unless we have structured delivery life-cycle production model. Mil forces must accept a min number of order upon freezing specifications, +/- 10% change tolerance to specs is fine.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 20:02

NRao, thats the million $ question. If the IA seriously commits, there is no reason why we cannot have an Arjun MK3, MK4, Mk5 etc with these technologies. With the new Govt, there is no reason either why these tanks can't be built by the Mahindra's or Tata's either, while OFB focuses on the T-90s.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby rohitvats » 13 Sep 2014 20:28

Karan M wrote:NRao, thats the million $ question. If the IA seriously commits, there is no reason why we cannot have an Arjun MK3, MK4, Mk5 etc with these technologies. With the new Govt, there is no reason either why these tanks can't be built by the Mahindra's or Tata's either, while OFB focuses on the T-90s.


Million Dollar Point - Army commitment to development of new tank. With clear goals and guidelines and involvement in project management from Day 01. I don't think it would be a insurmountable challenge to have a Arjun version with auto-loader and three man crew. If that is what IA wants. Give it time and clear commitment and money and I think we can deliver by 4-5 years time-frame.

Another +ve aspect which can aid in this development is that IA is not running out of time as was the case in 1999-2000 when T-90 was inducted. Enough T-90 would be in service along with few upgraded T-72 CIA and Arjun tanks. Let the Army Chief say that next tank in it's inventory will be a home-grown product. As it is, no earth shattering tech breakthrough has happened in Tank technology. DRDO can sure deliver on this. And as a measure of reassurance, allow a private firm to manufacture it.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Ranjani Brow » 13 Sep 2014 20:37

Twitter: @Saurav Jha

One direct competitor to HAL from the domestic pvt sector and one more tank/IFV factory besides Avadi are envisaged. Interesting times ahead

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 13 Sep 2014 20:37

The idea is not to build on (what is there) but to redesign, incorporating these new techs.

So, as an example (not that I want something exact), I would like to see the Arjun tank turret become more streamlined - like that (perhaps) of the Merkeva.

The way I see things is that the building blocks are nearly there (I am sure there is some ways to go), BUT, that should not prevent a total redesign of some of the features of things like the Arjun.

A need to import to fill current gaps is fine. But there needs to be a very clear path that sketches out how this import thinking will eventually merge into a local MIC. Import *has to have* a parallel track to build these little building blocks (engines of various sizes, gun barrels, turrets, what-not).

I mean it is ridiculous that such a large consumer imports from nations where their own needs are some 1/4 that of India's!! Go figure. India should be driving the future designs, research, etc and these smaller nations should be importing from India.

OK, enough.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 21:51

Rohit, good points, instead of running around looking for some FMBT, get cracking and make a lighter Arjun variant with an autoloader. Use as much as possible from the existing design - eg. armor, FCS, transmission, suspension, tracks/roadwheels - perhaps put in a newer gun variant w/autoloader, newer compact engine, APS. Thats doable & better than starting off yet another search for a hovercraft cum tank cum death star which will again go through endless trials!!

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby rohitvats » 13 Sep 2014 22:19

Karan M wrote:Rohit, good points, instead of running around looking for some FMBT, get cracking and make a lighter Arjun variant with an autoloader. Use as much as possible from the existing design - eg. armor, FCS, transmission, suspension, tracks/roadwheels - perhaps put in a newer gun variant w/autoloader, newer compact engine, APS. Thats doable & better than starting off yet another search for a hovercraft cum tank cum death star which will again go through endless trials!!


True.

They've shown this wisdom already when IA pushed for FICV segment to be opened to private players. That is the road ahead. IA always had QC issues with HVF - even the QC pass %age of T-90s was pretty low to begin with; don't know the situation now. So, let DRDO get cracking at FMBT derived from Arjun and nominate a private partner to manufacture it. Put your money where your mouth is. Tanks are going to remain viable in our environment for a long time. And IA loves tanks. And wants load of it.

As an aside, in spite of their best effort, they cannot push for replacement of T-72 on 1-1 basis with T-90. And T-72 upgrade is not going anywhere. I won't be surprised if we see more Arjun Mk2 induction to replace oldest lot of T-72 in service.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 13 Sep 2014 22:34

hecky wrote:Twitter: @Saurav Jha

One direct competitor to HAL from the domestic pvt sector and one more tank/IFV factory besides Avadi are envisaged. Interesting times ahead

The BMP-2 are made by Ordnance Factory Medak, the tanks are made in Avadi.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 22:41

rohitvats wrote:True.

They've shown this wisdom already when IA pushed for FICV segment to be opened to private players. That is the road ahead. IA always had QC issues with HVF - even the QC pass %age of T-90s was pretty low to begin with; don't know the situation now. So, let DRDO get cracking at FMBT derived from Arjun and nominate a private partner to manufacture it. Put your money where your mouth is. Tanks are going to remain viable in our environment for a long time. And IA loves tanks. And wants load of it.

As an aside, in spite of their best effort, they cannot push for replacement of T-72 on 1-1 basis with T-90. And T-72 upgrade is not going anywhere. I won't be surprised if we see more Arjun Mk2 induction to replace oldest lot of T-72 in service.


Many "larges" of Amrut Single malt for you my friend if the above comes true!! :D

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2014 22:43

abhik wrote:
hecky wrote:Twitter: @Saurav Jha

One direct competitor to HAL from the domestic pvt sector and one more tank/IFV factory besides Avadi are envisaged. Interesting times ahead

The BMP-2 are made by Ordnance Factory Medak, the tanks are made in Avadi.


IA had also opened up the T-72 upgrade + overhaul to pvt sector - I wonder where that program went under the Saint? L&T was teaming up with Raytheon for the upgrade..

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_26622 » 14 Sep 2014 15:53

Auto-Loader is absolutely wrong way to go for following reasons (unless sane counter arguments are put forward)

1. Arjun with 3 man crew + Auto-loader will be heavier than 4 man crew Arjun. Same applies to any tank.
2. Auto-loader is a death trap, as 'exposed' ammunition will be smack in middle crew compartment -> ever wonder why Iraqi Tin cans tanks blew up spectacularly. Any penetration of crew compartment will mean instantaneous blow-up. I would not be surprised to find that Iraqi tank crews expeditiously walked away from their tin cans instead of putting up a fight.
3. Auto loader tech will be safe only if turret is unmanned >> That is a big design and operational change over current Gen tanks. Seen some developments on this front but not something which goes all the way ...

Basically, all current gen tanks with auto-loaders are unsafe as ammunition is not housed in compartments which blow outwards ( blowing the damn turret off). Unfortunately, this applies to all of our Russian sourced tin can fleet >> which we paid top $$$ and proudly keep driving around.

Why we continue to deny this 'in the face' fact is beyond comprehension. On one side we talk about valuing life aka 'supreme sacrifice' and then simply buy more death traps for our soldiers ?

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby pankajs » 14 Sep 2014 16:49

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 452470.cms

Rs 25,000 crore Navy tender only for private sector: Defence Ministry
NEW DELHI: Seeking to build capabilities of Indian private sector warship builders, the Defence Ministry has rejected the plea of a state-owned shipyard to participate in the Rs 25,000 crore project to construct four amphibious warfare vessels for the Indian Navy.

The Defence Ministry has decided that only private sector shipyards, including Pipavav, ABG and L and T, along with their foreign partners, would be allowed to take part in the Rs 25,000 crore project for building the four Landing Platform Docks, Navy sources told PTI here.

The Navy had issued tenders to these three private shipyards last year and decided to keep out Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL), saying it was building the 40,000-tonne Indigenous Aircraft Carrier and it should focus on that major project only for the moment.

However, CSL approached former Defence Minister A K Antony through the Ministry of Shipping and the deal was put on hold to consider whether the tender should be retracted or CSL could also be issued the tender and a committee under an Additional Secretary was formed to look into the matter.

The committee report was presented before the last Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) of the UPA government in February but it was decided that it would be kept on hold.

The new government decided to continue the tender in its original form and CSL will now not take part in it, the sources said, adding that the government wants to strengthen the capabilities of the private sector defence industry.

In a similar case, the Defence Ministry had rejected the plea of public sector firms to take part in a Rs 15,000 crore tender to build 56 transport aircraft for the air force and allowed only private players to take part in it.

Soon after taking over, Prime Minister Narendra Modi outlined his vision for the defence sector, saying that Indian industry, including both private and public sector, should build their capabilities for achieving self-reliance and also look towards exporting military hardware to friendly foreign countries.

The Defence Ministry has taken several steps in this direction such as scrapping of the 197 light helicopter tender under which the choppers would now be built by Indian companies only.

nash
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nash » 14 Sep 2014 17:42

^^^

this is getting better and better. :D

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby rohitvats » 14 Sep 2014 18:43

nik wrote:Auto-Loader is absolutely wrong way to go for following reasons (unless sane counter arguments are put forward)<SNIP>


How about taking a step back from the keyboard, take a deep breath and think calmly about what the other person wrote, try and figure out why of it and than passing such gyaan?

Ever heard of a tank called Leclerc? Made by our bosom buddies, the French?

Now, this tank comes with a 3-man crew and an auto-loader. Unlike the Russians, the French weren't trying to keep the size of their tank small. Compact relative to other western heavies maybe, but not like the Russians. Again, unlike the Russians, the tank comes with bustle mounted auto-loader where the ammunition is stored in a bustle towards rear of the turret.

So, the ammunition is stored in a horizontal position from where it is fed directly to the main gun. Another big advantage of this auto-loader compared to Russians is that tank can fire a UNITARY round. The desire to develop a compact design has its bearing on the auto-loader dimensions as well. And this places a limit on the length of the ammunition. Hence, Russian tank rounds are two-piece. They have the shot with secondary charge and main propellant charge. The auto-loader performs a two-step action to load the one full round into the main gun.

Two piece Russian tank ammunition: http://i.imgur.com/peaK7ON.jpg
Auto-loader in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NIaoOabF_0

Compared to this, the French tank uses a single piece or unitary round. The fact that ammunition is placed in bustle, allows for this luxury. Also, the rate of fire in this auto-loader is higher as compared to Russian one.

Schematic diagram - bustle mounted auto-loader: http://www.animeonscifi.co.uk/hosted/animarnia/Image66.gif
Auto-loader for Leclerc in action - see the large unitary rounds being loaded into the magazine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6nlvii-bP0

And the French tank uses the larger L55 main gun. The Korean K2 Panther also takes off after this design.

So, going forward, may be FMBT Arjun can sport this modification and have 3-man crew? That was the idea.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Austin » 14 Sep 2014 19:07

rohitvats wrote:Auto-loader in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NIaoOabF_0


Thats the T-72 Autoloader , The T-90 has a different arrangement which allows it to load the round and cartridge simultaneously in one single motion. The video of T-90 and other autoloader in action is in the video


rohitvats
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby rohitvats » 14 Sep 2014 19:21

Austin wrote: Thats the T-72 Autoloader , The T-90 has a different arrangement which allows it to load the round and cartridge simultaneously in one single motion. The video of T-90 and other autoloader in action is in the video


This is going OT here but final post - Are you sure, Austin?

Because fofanov has a picture and explanation of this type of autoloader for T-64 and T-80U.

Check this: Image
Link to site:http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/al-80.html

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Austin » 14 Sep 2014 20:00

Rohit you can see in the video for T-90 ( starts @ 0.44 ) it loads the round and cartidge in one go.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Victor » 14 Sep 2014 20:15

rohitvats wrote:Let the Army Chief say that next tank in it's inventory will be a home-grown product.
This is the problem. It is not for the Army Chief to decide or state, it is for his political bosses to do that. Every armyman from the jawan to general would be more than pleased to have home-grown weapons but their purse strings are held by the MoD and eventually the PMO. If you are given Rs 500 to defend your home in a mohalla full of vicious goondas, will you buy a pencil and notebook to design a baseball bat or go to the nearest store and buy it? Now if the MoD told the Army "Look, your next tank must be homegrown. Tell me what you need for that to happen", we would have better luck. We have been doing it backwards so far and it's not because we don't know better. The problem is not the Army.

rohitvats
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby rohitvats » 14 Sep 2014 20:33

Austin wrote:Rohit you can see in the video for T-90 ( starts @ 0.44 ) it loads the round and cartidge in one go.


I saw the video and the section being labeled as T-90. But same video and similar videos appear under T-80 head on YouTube.

Check these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JV7jN925sY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSzh2Ot2niY

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_22539 » 15 Sep 2014 07:28

Victor wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Let the Army Chief say that next tank in it's inventory will be a home-grown product.
This is the problem. It is not for the Army Chief to decide or state, it is for his political bosses to do that. Every armyman from the jawan to general would be more than pleased to have home-grown weapons but their purse strings are held by the MoD and eventually the PMO. If you are given Rs 500 to defend your home in a mohalla full of vicious goondas, will you buy a pencil and notebook to design a baseball bat or go to the nearest store and buy it? Now if the MoD told the Army "Look, your next tank must be homegrown. Tell me what you need for that to happen", we would have better luck. We have been doing it backwards so far and it's not because we don't know better. The problem is not the Army.


How farcical and facetious an argument you have there. Baseball bat indeed. Do our weapons come without ammunition or maintenance needs like a baseball bat? Does this foreign baseball bat come with gold plating? Does the pencil and notebook cost 100s of rupees? or does it cost a few rupees like it does in the real world? Or is the need for a baseball bat itself some fanboy lust for foreign sports equipment, while the job could easily be done by a iron rod cheaply made available?


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