India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 20 Jun 2018 00:42

Standing Commitee on Defence Report 2018-19, March 2018

DRDO's completed and ongoing programs list makes for really interesting reading. Few if any firms have such a structure where literally all their products are to be made to a firm requirement and then forced through extensive trials till they meet requirements and are inducted, making it a firm base for developing new products. With decent funding and even more accountability and integrated program management from the services, the now increasing participation from the private sector, the basis for their continued success is well set up.

Projects taken up in 12th Plan, 2012-17 wrote:The key projects which have been taken up in the 12th FYP are:

New generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM)
Solid fuel ducted ramjet (SFDR) technology
Quick reaction surface-to-air missile (QRSAM)
Man-portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM)
ASB-Glide
Smart anti-airfield weapon (SAAW)
Kautilya
Prahaar
Akash Mk-1S
Akash NG
Anvesha
RudraM-II
Stand-off anti-tank guided missile (SANT)
Lquid fuel ramjet engine
HEAT-Abhyas
Autonomous rotary unmanned aerial vehicle ‘RUAV’-10 kg
Unmanned small airship system (USAS)
Small turbo fan engine (STFE)
IFF Mk 12th(A) system variants
Advanced towed artillery gun system (ATAGS)
500 kg preformed fragmentation bomb
1500 HP engine (National Mission)
Landing gear system for 2-Ton class UAV
BMCS for 155 mm artillery gun
Advanced Daksh platform
CBRNe platforms
Wheeled armour platform (WHAP),
ATGM for MBT Arjun Mk-II
Corner shot weapon system for pistol and UBGL
Electric gun and turret drive system (ELEGANT),
AIP system on P-75 submarines
Sonars (ALTAS, Abhay, HUMSA UG, Tushar),
supersonic missile assisted release of torpedo (SMART),
Internal RWJ system for Jaguar DARIN III upgrade aircraft,
S-band hub and ground SATCOM terminals
Himshakti (Girishakti)
EW System ‘Samudrika’
Ground based mobile ELINT station ‘Himraj’
National open air range (NOAR)
Ground based electronic counter measures against GNSS receivers‘GYPSY’
Submarine periscope
AESA radar ‘Uttam’ for LCA
Air defence fire control radar ‘Atulya'
Air defence tactical control radar
ANURouter
New operating system,
S-band digital multimedia broadcast terminal for satellite communication
MEMS packaging facility
Multi-agent robotics system (MARS)
Microwave chaff for Defence applications.



Budget wrote:

Budgetary Provisions 2.3

Projected Amount, Budget Estimates (BE), Revised Estimates (RE) and actual allocations in respect of DRDO for the last five years along with the Projections and Budget Estimate allocation for the year 2018-2019 are given in the following table:

Year
BE Proposed
BE Approved
RE Approved
MA Approved

2013-14
16483.28
10610.17
10930.17
10934.17

2014-15
18495.46
15282.92
13447.19
13716.14

2015-16
19641.56
14358.49
12491.21
13540.11

2016-17
18782.86
13593.78
13454.54
13501.00

2017-18
19935.60
14818.74
15463.25

2018-19
22203.74
17861.19

Approval of RE 2017-18 & BE 2018-19 is still awaited.

On being asked about whether the budget provided is sufficient for the plans as
envisaged by DRDO , the Ministry in written reply submitted as under:- b]'The budget of DRDO has always been around 5-6% of the Defence Budget. Keeping aside pay and allowances and other non-salary revenue expenditure, each of which essentially keeps growing every year, the amount left for R&D activities is very less (~Rs. 9000 Crore). Of this, ~Rs. 5,000 Crore is for Strategic Schemes which is unavoidable expense because DRDO has the responsibility of design, development, operation and maintenance of these projects. Another ~Rs. 1,000
Crore is for our top priority CCS programs & ~Rs. 1,300 Crore is for essential non salary revenue expenditure, leaving only ~Rs. 1,400 Crore for S&T, TD and other MM projects. Since MM has higher priority, the quantum of funds left for TD/S&T is less than ~Rs. 500 Crore. This slab (TD/S&T) actually constitutes DRDO’s efforts in blue sky research and futuristic technology which ideally is the bed-rock for any R&D
organization. DRDO needs additional funds to take up projects in futuristic areas, significant/high-cost projects. Here quantum of funds substantially needs to be increased to about Rs. 3,000 Crore. CCS projects will require another Rs. 2,000 Crore as a number of new projects are on the anvil. Hence an additional Rs. 5,000 Crore is critically required for sustained R&D efforts/output'. [/b]

2.5
During the oral evidence, on the issue of additional budget, Secretary, Defence R&D submitted as under:-
'‘The Department is thankful to you for giving this enhanced Budget. In the consecutive two years in your Report you have requested for enhanced Budget. We could get a 20 per cent jump in our Budget with respect to last year. The increase in Budget is around Rs.2000 Crore in terms of capital and about Rs.200 Crore in the revenue. Though there is an increase, we have a small request in case it could be incded in the Report.
We have LCA Programme which is coming under grants-in-aid which requires funding. As of now, we have got the orders for about 123 aircraft and also Air Force is committed to take another 201 aircraft which means, Mark-II to be designed and developed, we are in the half way through. There are some expenditures involved. We request another Rs.800 Crore under grants-in-aid. If it could be provided we will be happy.

Likewise, we are also having some strategic programme for which we need at least Rs.500 Crore civil capital. Last but not the least, another Rs.500 Crore, if it is possible, is our requirement in the stores revenue. In total about Rs.1,800Crore we will be requesting.

Before I end, I once again thank you for the continued support because of which we got the enhanced amount. We had requested about Rs.4000 Crore and we could get at least Rs.2,500Crore. That is really good. Except this small change, in case it happens, we will be very comfortable”.

Further, Defence Secretary stated in this regard as given below:"
("Sir, with respect to the mention of Rupees One Lakh crore, the more the output generation, the better will be revenue generation, a part of which will be alloted to Defence, and further to Defence Research, thereby, making it a long, time-consuming process. Hence, the said fund of Rs. One Lakh crore is the not alloted instantly.)
In comparison to Defence funding in countries such as the US, Russia, and China, our Defence R&D spending is very less. As per published data, India funding 6% on Defence R&D of the Defence Budget whilst, USA and China are spending approximately 12% and 20%, respectively on Defence R&D as compared to their Defence Budget. Vibrant economy is possible only when both saving and spending go hand in hand. Spending the tax payers money wisely is as important as saving if not more for the stimulation of growth in Defence R&D capability.

2.8
On being asked about the new projects being formulated,the Ministry in its written replies submitted as under:
-‘“Major new projects being formulated and planned to be taken up by the technology groups in next few months are:

Aeronautics:
Ghatak Aircraft Programme, Multi Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMMA)
Programme, Aerostat Platform System for Surveillance Large Size (Prahari), Rotary
UAV for Snow Cover Evaluation, High Efficiency High Temperature Turbine, Land
Attack Cruise Missile.

Armament &Combat Engineering (ACE):
Universal Armoured Recovery & Repair Vehicle (UARRV), 600 HP Engine, Landing Gear for 3T class Unmanned Aerial
Vehicle, Surveillance using Multilayer Intelligent Tracking Response Analysis ‘SUMITRA’, Wheeled Armoured Personnel Carrier for UN Mission-UN APC 8x8,Swarm Robotics, Extended Range Anti-submarine Rocket ER-ASR, TerraINT as Force Multiplier for Military Operational Planning (DHARASTRA), Mechanical Mine Layer-AT, Integrated Console for Network Surveillance.

Electronics & Communication Systems (ECS):
Internal RWR & Self Protection Jammer Pod for LCA Mk1A, Digital Active Phased Array Radar (DAPA Radar), L-Band Long Range (900 km) Phased Array Radar, Digital Active Phased Array, Data-links for Airborne Platforms, Advanced SATCOM Technologies & Systems, Next Generation Integrated EW System (ROSHINI), Estimator & Compensator Modules for Laser Weapon Systems (EsCom).

Life Sciences:
Bio Agent Detector System, Next Generation Protective Ensemble (NGPE), Next Generation CBN Defence Technologies.

Micro Electronic Devices & Computational System (MED &CoS):
Next Generation Microwave GTechnologies (NEXGEM), Multi Petaflop Computing System, GaN MMIC for applications up to X-band.

Missile and Strategic System (MSS):
Air to Surface Missile DHRUVASTRA for IAF,
Astra Mk-II, Enabling Technologies for Explosive driven High Power Microwave System (EDHPMS).

Naval System and Materials (NS&M):
High Endurance Autonomous Underwater Vehicle (HEAUV), Technology Development for SiCFiber (TDSiCF), Multi Influence Ground Mine, Chaff Payload for Naval Applications (CHAFF-N)”.

2.9 The Ministry was asked to furnish the details of the projection for Twelfth Plan in
respect of Research and Development, the Ministry supplied the following information:
The projections for Twelfth Plan vs. allocation are presented in the Table below:

(Rs. in Crore)
Year
Defence* Expenditure
Projection
Budget allocated to R&D
%age of Defence Expenditure

2012-13
181776.00
14463.66
9794.80
5.39

2013-14
203499.35
16483.28
10868.88
5.34

2014-15
222370.00
18495.46
13257.98
6.05

2015-16 *(RE)
224636.00
19641.56
13277.27
5.91

2016-17*(BE)
249099.00
18782.86
13365.30
5.37

2.10
The Ministry was asked to furnish the reasons for decline, if any , in the allocation made on Research and Development to the total Defence Budget during the Twelfth Plan period and projects which have suffered due to reduced allocation, if any, the Ministry
supplied the following information:

“The budget of DRDO over the 12th FYP period has always been around 6% of the Defence Budget. Keeping aside pay and allowances and other non-salary revenue expenditure, each of which essentially keeps growing every year, the amount left for R&D activities during the last 3 years has been progressively decreasing (Rs. 9,742.94 Crore; 9,563.26 Crore and Rs. 8,830.08 Crore respectively). Of Rs. 8,830.08 Crore (allocated in2015-16); Rs. 5,200 Crore is for Strategic Schemes which is unavoidable expense because DRDO has the responsibility of design,
development, operation and maintenance of these projects. Another Rs. 930 Crore is for our top priority CCS programs &Rs. 1,314 Crore is for essential non salary revenue expenditure, leaving only Rs. 1,386.08 Crore for S&T, TD and other MM projects.

Since MM has higher priority, the quantum of funds left for TD/S&T is less than Rs. 500 Cr. This slab (TD/S&T) actually constitutes DRDO’s efforts in blue sky research and futuristic technology which ideally is the bed-rock for any R&D organization.

DRDO needs additional funds to take up projects in futuristic areas, significant/high-cost projects. Here quantum of funds substantially needs to be increased to about Rs 3,000 Crore. Even CCS projects will require another Rs. 2,000 Crore as a number of new projects are on the anvil. Hence an additional Rs. 5,000 Crore is critically required for sustained R&D efforts/output.

The above was also presented to Standing Committee of Parliament during Apr 2016.

Effect of reduced funding vis-à-vis projections will be reflected in delay in completion of project activities which will subsequently result in a time overrun in projects”.

2.11
On being asked about the number of projects initiated by Defence Research and Development Organisation, date of initiation and the s
hare of a project/scientist/technical manpower in normal circumstances, the Ministry in written reply submitted as under:

“As per the available records, 1031 projects (excluding Special Schemes/TS/Build-up & short closed/stage closed/cancelled projects
) have been sanctioned till date at a total cost of Rs. 87,305.08 Crore (including User share). The total no. of projects sanctioned by DRDO in 12
th FYP and XIII FYP (Cost ≥ Rs 2 Crore) including cost are provided below:

Plan Period
No. of Projects
Cost of Projects(Rs in Crore)
12th FYP (2012-2017)
298
32976.88

13th FYP (2017-till date)
37
2159.26


Projects completed

The plan period also saw the completion of a number of projects viz.
Integrated Aerostat Surveillance System-Medium Size (Nakshatra)
Aerostat Platform 2000 cum (Akashdeep)
Inflatable Radome
Heavy Drop System – 16T
Enhanced Range Rocket ‘Pinaka’ Mk-II
Penetration-cum-Blast (PCB) and Thermo-baric (TB) Ammunition for 120 mm Arjun Tank
Multi Caliber Individual Weapon System (MCIWS)
Air Bursting Grenade (ABG) for Individual Weapon
46m Military Load Class (MLC-70) Modular Bridge Mountain Foot Bridge
Conversion of BMP into Tele-operated & Autonomous Vehicle
Satellite based Surveillance (SBS) and Reconnaissance System
EW Suite for Fighter Aircraft (EWSFA)
Dual Colour Missile Approach Warning System (DCMAWS) for Fighter Aircraft (Su-30 MKI)
Medium Power Radar (MPR) ‘Arudhra’
Electro-Optical Fire Control System for Naval Ships (EON-51)
Electro-Optical Sensors for Airborne Platforms (UAV & Aerostat)
Modern ESM System ‘VARUNA’
S-Band Hub and Ground SATCOM Terminals
NBC Defence Technologies
Life Support System for Services (LSSS)
MEMS Technology (MEMSTECH)
AlGaN/GaN High Electron Mobility Transistors Material and Device Development
Ku Band MPM based Transmitter for Airborne Radar
Technologies for TAC C3I Integration
Missile Launched Precision Guided Munitions (MLPGMs)
Imaging Infra Red (IIR) Seeker for Supersonic/Hypersonic Guided Missiles
ASB Glide Weapon System
Open Range Test Facility for Radar Cross-Section and Antenna Measurements (UHF to W BAND) – ORANGE
Track Extension and Rail Track Rocket Sled (RTRS) Augmentation
Advanced Torpedo Defence System ‘Maareech’
High Speed Heavy Weight Ship Launched Torpedo ‘Varunastra’
Low Frequency Dunking Sonar (LFDS), Seakeeping&Manoeuvering Basin (SMB)
Bullet Proof Jacket
Materials & Technologies for Stealth Applications (STEP) to name a few prominent ones.


Note projects already completed include S-Band Hub and Ground SATCOM, IIR seekers for supersonic/hypersonic missiles, GaN HEMTs, MLPGMS, DCMAWS!

In short, IIR seeker equipped SAM variants or A2G missiles are possible now. And we are on the way to making MMICs with GaN devices. MLPGMs available mean our SSMs & UAVs have more options.

jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 654
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jaysimha » 20 Jun 2018 11:34

I am not sure if this is posted before or not. ( MBD_if_RP)

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/ebooks/drdo-annual-report-2016/mobile/index.html#p=1
DRDO Annual Report 2016



jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 654
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby jaysimha » 20 Jun 2018 16:01

Karan M wrote:Standing Commitee on Defence Report 2018-19, March 2018

we will be highly obliged to have the link..


JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3552
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby JayS » 20 Jun 2018 16:48

jaysimha wrote:
Karan M wrote:Standing Commitee on Defence Report 2018-19, March 2018

we will be highly obliged to have the link..

Just copy paste that string in google.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 647
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Jun 2018 17:48

Karan M

I presume these are projects done - not necessarily successfully.

The MCIWS if it were a success would have been the basis of the new 7.62x51 requirement no?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 20 Jun 2018 19:12

Sachin,
The list includes mission mode projects, TD programs, infra programs and some developed by DRDO without a firm service requirement.

The majority of the items in that list (over 90%) are in service are against mission mode programs, or with firm indents/orders while others are in the process of trials. EWSFA is ready and variants are in trials, same as for DCMAWS.
That IIR seeker could well refer to the IIR seeker for Project AD.

In fact, in that entire list only a handful of items have not been publicized as having been in service - MCIWS, Aerostats. The rest are actually mission mode projects with firm orders (e.g. Varuna is now a defacto ESM system for IN) or TD/Infra programs (e.g. BMP into tele-vehicle).

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1458
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nam » 20 Jun 2018 19:22

Hence an additional Rs. 5,000 Crore is critically required for sustained R&D efforts/output


This is a no brainier investment. Investing this amount would probably save us atleast 5 times in terms of import.

We need to sort out 3 things. Funds, bleeding edge fundamental research by our univs and production capability.

DRDO needs to involve private sector and sell tech for royalty to reduce funding from central. Monetizing the tech is a good idea.Univs needs some serious cash for fundamental research.

Production, we are somewhere in the middle. It is the easiest to sort out with some strong dandha on the back and private orders.

DRDO can provide the engineering and project management capability. We will be all set out Indian Military Industrial Complex.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1458
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nam » 20 Jun 2018 19:28



It has an image of the Long Range Tracking Radar.. our BMD eyes.

AdityaM
BRFite
Posts: 1853
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby AdityaM » 20 Jun 2018 19:39

Saurav Jha has lots of images and products from DRDO report highlighted on his timeline today.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2285
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Katare » 20 Jun 2018 19:55

For what they get in budget, the results are simply outfekinstanding!!!

Our govt throws lakhs of corer of rupees on sunsidies and useless political sppeasment compared to that Rs 3000 corer is not even amount to pocket change in Jetley’s pajama.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50579
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2018 23:00

KaranM Please post a link as you have taken the trouble to post excerpts from it.


There are 3 pdfs with that name showing up in google.
Thanks, ramana


sahay
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 11 Apr 2017 19:45

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sahay » 21 Jun 2018 00:11

jaysimha wrote:
Karan M wrote:Standing Commitee on Defence Report 2018-19, March 2018

we will be highly obliged to have the link..

It is the 43rd report: http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Defe ... nce_43.pdf

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50579
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 21 Jun 2018 00:39

Thanks but that is old report for 2017 to 2018.

sahay
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 11 Apr 2017 19:45

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby sahay » 21 Jun 2018 00:54

nam wrote:It has an image of the Long Range Tracking Radar.. our BMD eyes.

That's not an image of LRTR, it is Israel's Green Pine.

PratikDas
BRFite
Posts: 1881
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 07:46
Contact:

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby PratikDas » 21 Jun 2018 05:43

@IndianDefenceRA on twitter:
Click link above for a low-res picture of the 1.6 MJ capacitor bank

Rail gun Update__
Eight firings were conducted, max muzzle velocity 1500 m/sec achieved for a mass of 8 gm. Currently 1. 6 MJ capacitor bank is set up by four 400 KJ modules.

(target is to fire a 1 kg projectile with 2000 m/s+ velocity with a capacitor bank of 10 MJ.)

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 07:27

ramana wrote:Thanks but that is old report for 2017 to 2018.


The report is from March 2018, the link is correct. Thanks sahay.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 07:31

Katare wrote:For what they get in budget, the results are simply outfekinstanding!!!

Our govt throws lakhs of corer of rupees on sunsidies and useless political sppeasment compared to that Rs 3000 corer is not even amount to pocket change in Jetley’s pajama.



I am amazed at how many products are now regularly clearing extremely demanding user trials. I am fairly certain if they were funded more liberally, even the oft quoted delays would be reduced, if not eliminated (thsts unlikely given the nature of doing completely new tech and having to change tack midstream).

manjgu
BRFite
Posts: 1569
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby manjgu » 21 Jun 2018 07:36

I hope DRDO is doing good work... i would like they indicate the status of each product ..in concept stage, development, trials , accepted, INDUCTED ( and how many units). will make me feel more at ease....

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2285
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Katare » 21 Jun 2018 07:38

You are right sir, OFB gets ~Rs 50 corer/year for R&D and still have 25% of their sales from product developed in-house. This princely some also delivered an 155mm 45 caliber artillery gun.

It’s bordering on criminal neglect!

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 07:39

Thing is if we look at the issue this means DRDO now has a core competency in certain systems with trained personnel, partners, vendors, and in house building blocks- subsystems and hardware available. Plus tge competence to build on it and make either an extension double quick ( Bharani Mk2 is derived from Aslesha) or something brand new ( eg Arudhra MPR, drawing on experience from LRTR but with completely new tech and no foreign partner for TOT for hard to master modules).

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 07:45

manjgu wrote:I hope DRDO is doing good work... i would like they indicate the status of each product ..in concept stage, development, trials , accepted, INDUCTED ( and how many units). will make me feel more at ease....


Manjgu, we will have to take the report I have quoted sbove and then do a line by line search for each item ( DRDO is abysmal at reporting its achievements, typical scientist mentality. My posts have done this sort of legwork tocollate inductions and also have induction /TD/infra/test data and so do the annual reports.
Check my post in radar thread for example.

Also, given DRDOs very limited funding, almost all of their programs are mission mode and often have some TD as part if the program. So 2014 you hear AESA rotating as a TD but by 2017, the Arudhra cleared user trials and has 8 units indented by IAF, and based on Arudhra, and Rohini (many units in service,) LLTR also clears user trials.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 07:54

See for instance, items in bold are local inductions, having cleared user trials without any major fuss.

Karan M wrote:GBMES deliveries have started & per low-key reports barely reported in the media, Divya Drishti is also operational.

Now consider the number of radars IAF has inducted, many AESA units.
37 Rohini radars LLTR
18 Israeli 2084 radars MPR
19 Thales GSM-100 LLTR
15 EL/M-2106 LLWR
21 Aslesha Mk1 LLWR
2 Aerostat radars (though one crashed)

SAM units have come with their own radars
Akash with 8 3D CAR and 16 Rajendra; some 7 squadrons more are in negotiation, BEL expects it this fiscal, thats another 21 radars. IA orders double the orderbook, so around 100 radars
Spyder with at least 3 EL/M-2106
MRSAM with EL/M-2084 (some 9 squadrons were reported)

Now local AESA units which have cleared trials
18 Ashwini LLTR
8 Arudhra MPR


Add to this the recent clearance for digitizing 16 Pechora Firing Units. Pechora radars, by virtue of their bands are anti-stealth.

Then the 5 operational IACCS and the several other which have been stood up, the operational AFNET and all sorts of comms upgrades.

I feel the focus on merely squadron numbers is misleading.

We also know five S-400 *firing units* are under negotiation.Thats another 5 batteries for high value areas & I fully expect a DRDO LRSAM to make up the rest of the numbers, because 5 batteries are laughably small for India's size. - this would be the oft quoted drdo xrsam program, yet to be fully gunded but on the roadmap. The Indo-Pak border is 3300 km & even if each S-400 is deployed near the border, huge numbers of internal Vital Points will still require LRSAM cover.

Even so the rise in IAF capabilities is huge.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 07:57

sahay wrote:
nam wrote:It has an image of the Long Range Tracking Radar.. our BMD eyes.

That's not an image of LRTR, it is Israel's Green Pine.


The DRDO LRTRs pic is in a DRDO tech focus article from several years back. Check the last page of an AESA array being tested.


manjgu
BRFite
Posts: 1569
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby manjgu » 21 Jun 2018 11:55

Karan M ... I understand your point and I did read all that u highlighted ... but as a taxpayer I can demand more transparency from a govt PSU. I dont think its too difficult to implement what i suggested. all these reports are done by DESIDOC who pride themselves on their documentation..

manjgu
BRFite
Posts: 1569
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby manjgu » 21 Jun 2018 12:00

even on the LRTR ..i know its the Green Pine. Why is it in the DRDO handbook. Did they make LRTR clones on their own or assembled more Green Pines?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 13:26

manjgu wrote:Karan M ... I understand your point and I did read all that u highlighted ... but as a taxpayer I can demand more transparency from a govt PSU. I dont think its too difficult to implement what i suggested. all these reports are done by DESIDOC who pride themselves on their documentation..


Manjgu, i actually think DRDO is transparent.. it allows guys like us to deduce where they are and where they will be. It would actually be simpler for them to just do exactly what you stated and avoid the details .. its just that they lack the proper marketing arm to do it (and the mindset to even understand how important it is.. in today's perception driven world, documenting positive achievements is not just good to have, but essential). Having said that, DESIDOC is a disaster & DRDO labs no better in contributing to their own PR.. see how many webpages remain un-updated on the main site & the shoddy DESIDOC documentation of key DRDO programs. Heck, DRDO labs could just scan their own AI/Defexpo brochures and that would be good enough.. but no, too much effort for DESIDOC.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 13:57

manjgu wrote:even on the LRTR ..i know its the Green Pine. Why is it in the DRDO handbook. Did they make LRTR clones on their own or assembled more Green Pines?


Manjgu, LRTR is not the Green Pine 1-to-1, LRTR is basically a desi variant of the Green Pine architecture. The Israelis shared the hardware design with us - and helped us make our own versions of the TX/RX modules etc. But majority of components are now sourced from within India (including hardware such as L-Band modules) and most importantly, the software which includes the signal processing and the specific modes that we implemented on the LRTR. They are now developing a follow on to the LRTR (900km-1000km class).

The biggest break through, is the Arudhra MPR - its our own complete in-house AESA with new gen TX/RX modules and several other improvements. That combined with AEW&CS radar means that DRDO has now got the basics of AESA in-house, now its all about next gen variants, and iterative improvements.

manjgu
BRFite
Posts: 1569
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby manjgu » 21 Jun 2018 14:30

good to hear our own desi effort on LRTR... i would love to see the day when our products are exported and we can squeeze other folks balls... then we have truly arrived.

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1057
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby dinesha » 21 Jun 2018 15:52

Comment section from a dated article..
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/01/ ... ssile.html

any radar engineering professional conversant with the designs, would now that the greenpine is not the lrtr. the greenpine can track targets at a lower range and only upto 3 km/sec since its 36 by 21 feet array is only partially populated with lower power mic tx/rx modules. the LRTR on the other hand is a true MW class radar. i would be very interested in knowing its true range, within a given elevation, i wouldnt be surprised if radars placed well within india could track traffic deep into pakistan as well.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15549
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2018 16:04

On LRTR from way back, from Dr VK Saraswat.

Ajai Shukla article on BMD

An untold story: how India got its missile defence
Dr Saraswat rejects reports that the LRTR in India’s ABM system is actually the Israeli Green Pine radar. He stated, "The LRTR is actually a radar built by (a DRDO laboratory) the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) in Bangalore, in collaboration with Israeli company, ELTA. It is not the Green Pine. The technology of the Green Pine may be built into this, but not even a single module of Green Pine is in (the LRTR). If we had done that, the Americans would have stopped the flow of technology to Israel."


India on way to joining exclusive BMD club , 2007

Interestingly, the crucial LRTRs used in the tests are based on the two Israeli Green Pine early-warning and fire control radars imported by India in 2001-2002.

"But we have upgraded LRTR, which is 30-40% better in target classification and identification. It can prioritize the incoming threats and track 200 targets simultaneously," said Saraswat.

LRTR has a detection range of 600 km and is capable of tracking intermediate range ballistic missiles, with velocities up to 5,000 metre per second. Incidentally, a ballistic missile can be targeted at all the three points in its parabolic trajectory — boost or launch phase, mid-course in space or terminal phase during atmospheric descent.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2231
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby abhik » 21 Jun 2018 23:38

Didn't see this posted anywhere else
In a blow to private defence firms, govt will not subsidise development of new weaponry
This was IMO much better than the "Strategic Partner" which would have only increased import/screwdrivergiri. Of course they weren't able to see through a single SP contract either till date :x

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6922
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Indranil » 22 Jun 2018 00:39

But, I am completely with L&T on this. What is this nonsense that ship building PSUs with orders which cannot even be fulfilled for the next 5 years are given more orders while L&Ts shipyard lies idle in want of orders.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1458
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby nam » 22 Jun 2018 00:49

Indranil wrote:But, I am completely with L&T on this. What is this nonsense that ship building PSUs with orders which cannot even be fulfilled for the next 5 years are given more orders while L&Ts shipyard lies idle in want of orders.


I would say, L&T should concentrate on nuke subs projects, rather than create bad blood with MoD over conventional subs. It is pointless creating another ecosytem at L&T for conventional subs, when Mazgoan docks already has the trained manpower for Scorpene.

Nuke subs are the crown jewels.

However I agree, in the domain of surface assets, they have been short changed. MoD has found a neat way of not giving orders to private sector by having a RFP send to private & DPSUs.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50579
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramana » 22 Jun 2018 01:03

Conventional sub building are low hanging grapes.
Hence the bickering.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17635
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby chetak » 22 Jun 2018 21:32

Indranil wrote:But, I am completely with L&T on this. What is this nonsense that ship building PSUs with orders which cannot even be fulfilled for the next 5 years are given more orders while L&Ts shipyard lies idle in want of orders.


just asking onlee.

what happens if a private entity, after gaining warship building expertise, decides to set up a warship building enterprise in a JV with a local firm, say in bangladesh??

we already have one parsi entrepreneur jumping around in his undies, trying to set up manufacturing plants in pakiland, every time there is a slight thaw in the Indo pak relations.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gaurav.p and 52 guests