India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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Sagar G
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 06 Feb 2015 18:32

Karan M wrote:Singha, veteran status indeed.

Meanwhile, Vishal Thapar is plugging OIS-AT on his twitter timeline. The link
http://armingindia.com/lead04-02-15.htm

Some big whoppers there. Sample :mrgreen:


Oh come on Karan M give that guy a break, "he is a smart businessman who is trying to fill in a niche" :P :lol:

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 06 Feb 2015 19:22

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 2h 2 hours ago

I had told the good folks at DRDO to get ready for a major propaganda war the moment the Chander episode happened.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2015 19:36

Sagar G wrote:As happened previously in Dr. Chander fiasco if Modi and Parikkar choose to play dumbass then they will only give our presstitutes a chance to throw mud on our establishments which isn't hard given the low level of knowledge about these things among aam junta but seeing pant wetting on BRF is a bit unexpected. Said this Parikkar has a lot of distance to cover w.r.t. being a DM worthy of being in that position, till now he hasn't impressed me and I have (maybe had) lot of expectations from him and so does many from our defence scientific community.


Who on BRF had pant wetting etc? Speaking for myself, just a sense of disappointment at the consistent missteps by Parrikar. Exercising self censorship on some of his other recent statements which don't paint him in a positive light either. The TNN article may be lacking in details/mistaken but its not by Pandit and probably some local stringer. Might well be possible he acted the way he did.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2015 19:47

Sagar G wrote:
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 2h 2 hours ago

I had told the good folks at DRDO to get ready for a major propaganda war the moment the Chander episode happened.


That propaganda war has been underway for a long time now. Ever since the agency linked tech to offsets.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2015 19:48

Sagar G wrote:
Karan M wrote:Singha, veteran status indeed.

Meanwhile, Vishal Thapar is plugging OIS-AT on his twitter timeline. The link
http://armingindia.com/lead04-02-15.htm

Some big whoppers there. Sample :mrgreen:


Oh come on Karan M give that guy a break, "he is a smart businessman who is trying to fill in a niche" :P :lol:


Unique business model saar. Without any factory shactory and such old school things.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 06 Feb 2015 19:49

Karan M wrote:Who on BRF had pant wetting etc? Speaking for myself, just a sense of disappointment at the consistent missteps by Parrikar. Exercising self censorship on some of his other recent statements which don't paint him in a positive light either. The TNN article may be lacking in details/mistaken but its not by Pandit and probably some local stringer. Might well be possible he acted the way he did.


It's possible that he went to stalls and asked a few questions regarding why is so and so, which cannot be faulted but the article is definitely blowing it out of proportions and painting his behaviour as some kind of public rebuttal. The tone of the article is a dead give away. But yes, him along with Modi has taken some missteps which were very much avoidable.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 06 Feb 2015 19:58

Lets see saar. One doesnt go to stalls and harangue the folks there. Lets just say his recent behaviour has been belying the amount of hopes one has on this new dispensation. We will all be happy as matter of fact for the opposite to be true.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 06 Feb 2015 20:02

The mishandling of Dr. Chander hasn't gone down well in the establishment and there is anger in the ranks, all in all a bad thing. Lets hope and pray things get better soon.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby ramdas » 06 Feb 2015 20:39

Hear that Dr. R. K. Gupta's transfer has been put on hold. Hope that with this, this cycle of action and reaction is put to an end. The fewer the changes in the setup at ASL, the better:it has after all, been successful and one does not try to change what is working.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby dinesha » 06 Feb 2015 20:42

Invisible planes next on DRDO's radar, thanks to Sage Bharadwaj? http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 644_1.html
Prabhu, a former head of the central government's National
Informatics Centre, claimed that the formulae for the alloy has
been sourced from Bharadwaj's book 'Brihad Viman Shastra' and
could make even planes invisible, because it absorbed 80 percent
of the light.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby hnair » 06 Feb 2015 21:31

Karan M, the ISRO case did not become a "target of opportunity" ops, until the media mismanagement by Kerala state government and then later by dilli, made it so. NPA types and their stories of "Surya" seem to be just re-entry decoys for the actual action :( The current Kerala CM has a HUGE part*, in magnifying what was a horny cop's eyes for a Male women into a deadly fiasco that affected even MOM's trajectory!

It is hard to believe that a new administration is not given a primer by the wise old men of dilli, despite the lessons learnt. The H-class **MUST** be shielded with MRSAMs and PDVs, if need be. For they are more valuable than "political leadership" at this point in history

ramanaji, I did not respond to your answer (Drona) in nukkad, because these topics are too raw to talk it out like in a college cafe :(

______
*by condoning a certain newspaper that is subservient to his interests (going against the the then sitting CM) go ape on senior scientists of LPSC, who could not defend their names. People who should not be visible, got named and shamed by that malayalam newspaper, because they were defenseless. Only Nambi defended himself vigorously, after the initial shock. But not so with others. One can see a few figures from that dark period, walking around like empty shells even after 20 years

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Feb 2015 22:58

Karan M wrote:Are sir, please dont saab me. Dont deserve that.

In Indian defense R&D you do.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 07 Feb 2015 02:52

Matri sir - thanks for the kind words.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby negi » 09 Feb 2015 18:51

Why is Dr. Avinash Chander's termination of contract a fiasco ? He had finished his full term service , beyond that everything has to be on T&M basis and on merit, I think we Indians have a bad habit of making demi gods out of mortals and placing them on too high a pedestal it applies to both Dr. Chander or even Parikkar . Indian DPSUs at a mid to high level are becoming nice cozy place for a safe job under the MOD with good retirement benefits, with so many young people joining the DPSUs every year and slow career growth it makes sense the seniors be moved out if things move too slow , good stable organizations should not become dependent on 1-2 star performers , look at the services the service chiefs have a fixed tenure because they can only serve till a certain age it does not matter if one is a PVC awardee or just a AVSM recipient , good organizations produce leaders in numbers high enough to not get dependent on just a few who hang around until eternity and have their names included in every project irrespective of their contribution. Indian scientific and defence establishment need to be de-governmentalized in that sense. Experts and SMEs can always provide their services as consultants post-retirement and if they are good enough their services will be sought by the DPSUs on adhoc basis .

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 09 Feb 2015 19:06

Its not about his termination - that's the GOI's prerogative, but how it was done. It was a pretty clumsily handled affair, and unnecessarily dragging his name through the mud "xyx sacked" etc etc..that part & the slagging of his org is what would demotivate his team/s & clearly it did do so.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Singha » 09 Feb 2015 19:18

imo F G H class should go dark and off the grid. there is no need to keep naming them and making public figures out of them.

in SF units sometimes the place of action is not mentioned or fudged in gallantry awards, likewise no need to make merit and award lists public , just reward them very handsomely with cash awards for the work done and keep it quiet.

for example I believe the BARC exercises far greater dark ops than similar senior figures in DRDO. we dont have any indication in public domain who in barc works on weapons projects.

the public face for dealing with MSM etc should be 3 levels down from the top in E class. kind of like sending E-boats to skirmish with enemy units while Bismark, prinz Eugen and Tirpitz sail quietly through the greenland gap into the north atlantic.


some will not like it, some will want to be public stars, then clearly classified projects is not for them......from E class itself the ones who are willing to drop off the grid should be identified and the rest reassigned to other productive non-classified work like food laboratories and such.

Such is the nature of the game.

also the media needs to be kicked out of balasore and not given any form of access to top scientists. there is no need to grant interviews unless a particular message need to be sent out and then keep it brief.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby negi » 09 Feb 2015 19:58

Karan M wrote:Its not about his termination - that's the GOI's prerogative, but how it was done. It was a pretty clumsily handled affair, and unnecessarily dragging his name through the mud "xyx sacked" etc etc..that part & the slagging of his org is what would demotivate his team/s & clearly it did do so.

That is the media side of things, all high top echelons of Govt. institutions are infested with khabrilals they leak such stuff selectively at an appropriate time for various reasons . Be it V K Singh's letter to the PMO which was supposed to be kept a secret or even Dr. Chander's termination they were leaked selectively and in latter's case even before the letter reached Dr Chander himself . Obviously Parrikar should make an example out of these moles who leak such stuff to media but I am still not sure as to how Dr. Chander's termination of contract was wrong unless it was a case like Adm Bhagwat's termination when latter rubbed GF in a wrong way, remember DPSUs are as egoistic as any Govt. organization if Dr. Chander was having too much control despite him being retired a lot of fat kats in DRDO might not have been happy about it , in our desh even good people sieze to be productive when their egos are trampled upon and here we are talking about DPSUs a DM has then no choice but to keep the DPSU happy .

Media just played the story and executed a hit job, no where was any question raised about Dr. Chander's credentials or his ability . More than anything else it could be lifafa team's ploy to create infighting and confusion in the administration over nothing.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby geeth » 09 Feb 2015 20:34

DRDO is an organisation where the performing/non performing ratio doesn't even match the standard 20/80 ratio. After you become Scientist E the maska maro exercise start from right earnest. Smart ones do it even before that. There is much more politics amongst scientists than even amongst the politicians. The politicians at least tend to protect each other (for a price ofcourse). But some of the scientists are.outright silly minded, have bloated egos, vengeful towards colleagues and would sell their souls. Such characters often reach the top, with whom the politico-babu gang are comfortable. A scientist who is good in his field is often happy with his work and is interested in pursuit of knowledge which alone thrills them. Many of Them often turn out to be bad administrators. This often gets exploited by less capable ones who more often than not invest their time in developing contacts with the.powers that be..this is the general case and is an observation standing at the periphery..There could always be exceptions and such organisations have flourished.

Being Govt organisations, lower echelons are often unable to take up their problems because their bosses are the biggest impediments and everything has to go through these bosses. Many of them are harassed and some of them give at certain level depending on their stamina. Some other continue without doing much work (salary is good now a days).
Many of my classmates are in DRDO and sister organisations. Even I got selected to ADE. Mine was first batch from which recruitment specific to LCA was done. I didn't join..of the rest one has reached a very senior post I heard.. Rest retired or continue at various levels.

Overall, if the work culture changes for the better, we can expect dramatic results.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby NRao » 09 Feb 2015 20:46

India wants transformative technology from US

Ahead of the next round of talks with the US on defence cooperation this month, India said on Monday it will like to acquire technologies which are "transformative and unique" that can give it the edge over others.

Admitting that the four projects identified under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) might appear "not very unique", a senior Defence Ministry official today said both countries will eventually graduate to a more sophisticated level.

"Something very fundamental to DTTI is that whatever we do, as far as India is concerned, we would like those technologies to be transformative and unique," G Mohan Kumar, Secretary (Defence Production) told reporters here.

He said under DTTI, India is looking for technolgies which "can give us an edge".

During US President Barack Obama's visit, the two countries had identified four "pathfinder projects" under DTTI while agreeing on a working group on aircraft carrier technology and for designing and development of jet engine technology.

"There are so many types of technology. Aircraft carrier technology, jet engine technology where the country can be given an edge," Kumar added.

He said the whole process is "demand driver" and forces will decide what meets their futuristic requirements.

The official noted that both the countries are in a new area of bilateral cooperation as they never had the opportunity of co-production and co-development.

"This entire process is evolving and basic procedures are being paved out. And in the process we have identified some of the technologies where we can be partners," he said.

Kumar stressed that DTTI is a "very young framework" and it will take sometime to evolve into something very mature

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 09 Feb 2015 23:55

negi wrote:
Karan M wrote:Its not about his termination - that's the GOI's prerogative, but how it was done. It was a pretty clumsily handled affair, and unnecessarily dragging his name through the mud "xyx sacked" etc etc..that part & the slagging of his org is what would demotivate his team/s & clearly it did do so.

That is the media side of things, all high top echelons of Govt. institutions are infested with khabrilals they leak such stuff selectively at an appropriate time for various reasons . Be it V K Singh's letter to the PMO which was supposed to be kept a secret or even Dr. Chander's termination they were leaked selectively and in latter's case even before the letter reached Dr Chander himself . Obviously Parrikar should make an example out of these moles who leak such stuff to media but I am still not sure as to how Dr. Chander's termination of contract was wrong unless it was a case like Adm Bhagwat's termination when latter rubbed GF in a wrong way, remember DPSUs are as egoistic as any Govt. organization if Dr. Chander was having too much control despite him being retired a lot of fat kats in DRDO might not have been happy about it , in our desh even good people sieze to be productive when their egos are trampled upon and here we are talking about DPSUs a DM has then no choice but to keep the DPSU happy .

Media just played the story and executed a hit job, no where was any question raised about Dr. Chander's credentials or his ability . More than anything else it could be lifafa team's ploy to create infighting and confusion in the administration over nothing.


thats the thing. media executed a hit job but parrikar/GOIs behavior in the whole mess was not above board either. he/they could have just said a no comments and killed the controversy. DM did three things which are just not done at this level.

one, first messing up the message - i didnt know, got to know from TV to hey, i did know and took the decision
second, he is too old etc, implying his lack of capability while the ISRO head was on contract etc at same age level
third, making barbed comments at time of A-5 success (good, so what, more is required) and then saying chander came in/was appointed by shady means by UPA. just came across as very petty.

all three events when seen together (and add the Panaji incident to it) show a the DM as somebody who doesn't really understand who is what but is just throwing his weight around.

media didn't to be fair, play up even a fraction of what it could have & the leaks on the AC incident were clearly orchestrated by high up to tar chanders rep & to his credit, the man didn't even speak up much in his own defence and let sleeping dogs lie.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Feb 2015 00:02

geeth wrote:DRDO is an organisation where the performing/non performing ratio doesn't even match the standard 20/80 ratio. After you become Scientist E the maska maro exercise start from right earnest. Smart ones do it even before that. There is much more politics amongst scientists than even amongst the politicians. The politicians at least tend to protect each other (for a price ofcourse). But some of the scientists are.outright silly minded, have bloated egos, vengeful towards colleagues and would sell their souls. Such characters often reach the top, with whom the politico-babu gang are comfortable. A scientist who is good in his field is often happy with his work and is interested in pursuit of knowledge which alone thrills them. Many of Them often turn out to be bad administrators. This often gets exploited by less capable ones who more often than not invest their time in developing contacts with the.powers that be..this is the general case and is an observation standing at the periphery..There could always be exceptions and such organisations have flourished.

Being Govt organisations, lower echelons are often unable to take up their problems because their bosses are the biggest impediments and everything has to go through these bosses. Many of them are harassed and some of them give at certain level depending on their stamina. Some other continue without doing much work (salary is good now a days).
Many of my classmates are in DRDO and sister organisations. Even I got selected to ADE. Mine was first batch from which recruitment specific to LCA was done. I didn't join..of the rest one has reached a very senior post I heard.. Rest retired or continue at various levels.

Overall, if the work culture changes for the better, we can expect dramatic results.


thing is there are good labs / programs which have built up core competence and regular delivery and some where chalta hain/politicking is very evident. in recent years, past decade, the regular impetus of programs and some hard nosed leadership from saraswat and chander both elevated the missile cluster to a very focused group and also had several others become more mission oriented.
nobody's game that all these orgs can stand to be more agile and get things done even better etc but from GOI what we have seen is these are its step children. some budgets are allocated, and work goes on, but imports are the big thing.

defence minister is more of a defence acquisition minister.

in such a milieu , we really need to focus on getting the good better and weeding out the bad. has to be done behind the scenes, no controversies so that the good dont get demoralized. the constant media attacks and complete indifference by GOI hasn't gone unnoticed.
same as some services folks really take it hard when GOI mandarins appear to be against/or taking sides against them.

the missile cluster all said & done, is truly performing, GOI should have managed things better then letting politicking get out of control.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Feb 2015 00:23

Singha wrote:imo F G H class should go dark and off the grid. there is no need to keep naming them and making public figures out of them.

in SF units sometimes the place of action is not mentioned or fudged in gallantry awards, likewise no need to make merit and award lists public , just reward them very handsomely with cash awards for the work done and keep it quiet.

for example I believe the BARC exercises far greater dark ops than similar senior figures in DRDO. we dont have any indication in public domain who in barc works on weapons projects.

the public face for dealing with MSM etc should be 3 levels down from the top in E class. kind of like sending E-boats to skirmish with enemy units while Bismark, prinz Eugen and Tirpitz sail quietly through the greenland gap into the north atlantic.


some will not like it, some will want to be public stars, then clearly classified projects is not for them......from E class itself the ones who are willing to drop off the grid should be identified and the rest reassigned to other productive non-classified work like food laboratories and such.

Such is the nature of the game.

also the media needs to be kicked out of balasore and not given any form of access to top scientists. there is no need to grant interviews unless a particular message need to be sent out and then keep it brief.


singha agree completely.

you see what you say was the history of the IGMP , various electronics programs etc.

you remember how hard it was to even get a single news clip on some of our missiles etc?

then the media attacks orchestrated by UPA insiders/arms vendors got out control.

in particular stinker dupatta's hatchet job carried out by that grade A tw!t aroor who would gladly do anything to get ahead.

DRDO expected MOD would speak out on its behalf. instead they got silence.

it was then they realized that the UPA establishment was "in" on this game & was using the media to trim DRDO et al's feathers. no coincidence that things became so bad, that then SA publicly asked for funds at Aero India. The same CAS who incidentally would figure in Siachen Track-2, cutting Akash squadron orders to 2 squadrons (from 30, to 8 and then 2) and the AW imbroglio, went on to publicly ask that funds for domestic R&D should be curtailed.

so when VKS came in, he realized this was a war of perception & decided to heck with it, DRDO would be open about all it did.
it went a long way in countering the vested propaganda that Indian R&D were only doing reverse engineering, were good for nothing people etc but it also revealed a lot of stuff which should not have been revealed.

our BMD program for instance was DRDO's crown jewel. it should have not been talked about. imagine if this had been secretly tested and deployed with no TSP or PRC folks publicly aware. even with spies, they would have been unsure. our protective capabilities would have been enhanced 10x, with the limited number of nukes TSP fields neutralized or at least countered to a degree in secrecy.

instead it was made public, since MOD would not openly defend the DRDO & a gent who went onto become a state leader was part & parcel of the efforts to use the media for the UPA's own needs. certain elements in the the services were egged on & the media routinely started publishing vituperative leaks so saraswat & co decided to go the whole hog, be as public as possible and invite the brass, media to all the tests.

what should have been/could have been a cutting edge, black ops program with a huge strategic gain became public.

It happened much the same way with VK Singh. Same organization used to attack him and used for coup this, coup that. again UPA insiders who wanted him out.

In the same manner, a lot of stuff which is open know was best left with only top line details in secrecy.

Instead, since the MOD was at loggerheads with its own people, playing & picking favorites, national objectives suffered. All this happened while modern day Neros MMS and St looked the other way.

Unfortunately, the BJP which was expected to be more aware of these things has jumped into this snakepit with both feet in & no clue. On the plus side, Jaitley increased funding. But..he also demonstrated how firmly he was in the grips of babu speak when he said the org was funded ok all this time. As if..
One month in, and already being more MOD than required, speakign the same language of his predecessors.

The BJP govt is inheriting organizations which feel targeted by their own people & filled with people who expect a bit more support at least.

not radical changes perhaps but the occasional "We are with you sort of sentiment" that the soldier on the border is overjoyed with, when some bigwig appears and lends an ear to his concerns. that sort of support percolates down.

hard nosed decisions about tech cells, coop with services, long term funding & planning. instead, we have reports of the DM going to arms shows and asking qns which should be addressed by him with far more seriousness.

so far, the new DM does not seem to have got that.

yelling at people and browbeating them is one thing, but that won't improve things. institution building after what they have been through over the past decade is not going to be easy. but that is exactly why the BJP et al were elected. i for one, expect more of them & hope they get things done. otherwise, OIS types will continue to make hay.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby negi » 10 Feb 2015 09:32

Karan there are two ways to look at what DM did or said , one he could have been nice and more sophisticated but that would not have changed what he thought about the whole thing other way to look at things is Parrikar being Parrikar is known to be blunt and even crass , India and it's DPSUs need someone who can crack a whip and get the job done . Ever wondered why only the services are seemingly more efficient than other government bodies ? Wahan dande ke neeche kaam hota hai right from a jawan to General everyone is held accountable , you slip for a day and you get rapped on the wrists and humiliated in front of your peers . The only countries which had entire MIL complex under the state control and made enough stuff all in house were likes of Germany and USSR and they managed that by being very hard task masters , India has their setup but laid back attitude of a bay area start up as if we have likes of LM and NG working on our projects so we never move beyond prototype stage . I see nothing wrong with DM's comment about Agni 5 , we need more we need a 10-15k range ICBM. For last decade or two I have seen DMs cut the ribbon say nice things about DRDO our platforms but nothing has changed , it has always been too little too late . If someone right now calls spade a spade even if it were demoralizing to some so be it , sentiments do not matter at least not to those with a level head. What matters is how much budget DRDO gets in coming fiscal that will be a true indicator of what DM actually thinks or wants , everything else is a distraction.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 10 Feb 2015 14:00

negi, the issue is straightforward. in every org there will be the chalta hain types and others, who get things done. for the latter, every bit of praise, respect etc matters. they will do what they can within the constraints of the system and soak up the rubbish due to others as well. what the politicians have to do is reform the system and give such people a chance to thrive & weed out the others. instead, they salt the area with their own favorites, impose all sorts of restrictive rules and regulations etc.

as regards services being more efficient, simple answer is yes versus the average civilian establishment, but lets be objective. not all Govt orgs compare (eg technocratic or medical systems with the entire military sort of setup) or even otherwise. without opening a can of worms, 1999 showed us upfront the limitations of our current structure. all that top down system achieved was casualties en masse till there was a course correction from within. YO's of that time freely acknowledge it. and why was that? the GOI in 1999 was in the air over lahore bus trip and wanted things to be hunky dory. brass picked up on that perception.
the point is these are all systemic issues. blaming the orgs for what the politicians have constrained them for & then played favorites with (musical chairs as IA Chief f.e.) shows the game. True reform is not wanted or required. political loyalty is uppermost.

In this mess, people who work their butts off in the GOI deserve frank support.
Parrikar has not done that. if he is known to be blunt or crass then he needs to do more than just being blunt or crass. you don't as the head of the RM start throwing your weight around at subordinates who can't tell you what they think right back. chander, kalam etc simply put are guys who proved themselves in their respective fields and you don't throw them under the bus, just because hey you can. its not done.
politics has to be kept apart from administration. in the past decade, we had UPA fiddling again and again, with institutions of repute and making mockeries of them by fiddling within. DRDO/ISRO were not spared either, but were mostly safe albeit with budgetary restrictions as import mafia was in full flow.

last thing required is one more person coming in at the top and then without even understanding what is what, start off the commentary with a TRP driven media in tow. as much as you can say about him being crass or whatever, none of that excuses him going to a defense show and throwing his weight around. ministers who take things seriously dont do that. it reminds me, not in a positive way, of a young turk from the congress with a steel plant haranguing scientists about why the LCA was required at aero india, with the media around. per him, f16s or whatever could be imported and that was that. all this, sends the wrong messages & not just that, shows a complete lack of objectivity because if you are asking these questions at some random place, you aren't bothered to dig into them when you should be.
agni-5 statement was not about being blunt, it was being plainly petty. when the nation achieves something of this magnitude, he could have made an anodyne statement and moved on. after all he had "won", getting rid of chander and all. instead, he chose to use the media to be barbed. some of the other stuff that has not made it into press is not really positive either. he just comes across as somebody with big ambitions who wants good PR and quickly, and all these details are something he just wants to push through.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby srai » 11 Feb 2015 07:10


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Prem » 12 Feb 2015 00:45

The KALI 5000
[youtube]2gv2QNYNPGI&spfreload=1[/youtube]

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby member_23370 » 12 Feb 2015 02:10

That video is fake and not Kali.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby putnanja » 14 Feb 2015 23:20

Video of AEW&C system developed by DRDO.. no internal coverage though, just of the aircraft in flight.

Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C)

India’s home-grown, medium, airborne surveillance system, AEW&C India, is getting ready to go operational into the Indian Air force this year. The Indian AEW&C mission system and the Brazilian EMB‐145 platform aircraft have been combined optimally to provide a highly effective and efficient force multiplier system for the Indian Armed force.

The AEW&C India has been equipped with highly versatile active array Radar system, Identification friend or foe system, ELINT, COMINT systems, along with multiple combination of ‘C’-Band& SATCOM ‘Ku’-Band voice and Data Links, UHF/VHF/HF communications, & Self Protection Systems - in order to enhance mission capabilities, add redundancies to foolproof operations, and implant self‐protection against missile attacks from ground as compared with its contemporaries on same Embraer aircraft elsewhere in the world. Not to be let down on flight endurance, AEW&C India uniquely carries an In‐Flight Refuelling (IFR) system, should there be a need for extended operations.

The lightweight jet is capable of operation from almost any air airfield. More importantly, the network‐centric sensor system enables joint battle management from air, land and sea. Towards this ground systems are available to enable the operators to plan the mission, communicate the complete information from the aircraft to the command and control centres via multiple data links. A comprehensive training station is available to train the operators on all the aspects of the mission on the ground. A automated test equipment system also is available which enables trouble shooting at LRU level.
While India has caught up with the rest of the World in adopting the Active Electronically Steering Array (AESA) Antenna for its radar; the two building-block components of the radar, the Transmit-Receive Multi-Module (TRMM) and the teflon-clad ultra light Antenna Panel are notable Indian innovations in the radar sub-system. These are developed by CABS and with a joint patent along with M/s Astra Microwave, Hyderabad for TRMM. The most important outcome of the efforts is the realisation of a system that is both operation-efficient and cost-effective.

Development Flight Trials to prove the various sub-systems of AEW&C India vis-a-vis the Operational Requirements will come to a close very shortly. A brief confirmatory User Trials will precede induction tow of these systems into the Air Force during this year.

Crafting of the AEW&C India into a versatile military machine meant a decade of development sweating for its five work‐centres: LRDE, DARE, DLRL, DEAL and CABS with CABS as a nodal agency, with several private and public sector partners in India along with M/s EMBRAER of Brazil. Currently though the system is customised for the Indian Air force, the AEW&C India can fine tuned to any specific user‐oriented early warning product through appropriate programming/software which can be defined by the user.

Many countries are evincing keen interest in the AEW&C system and discussions are in progress for export of this system.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2015 19:44

BEL head interview. Apparently, there is now an Ellora Mk2.
___________________
The major orders executed during 2013-14 for our defence and civilian customers include Akash Missile Systems (army and air force), passive night vision devices (PNVDs), low level light weight radars, missile warning system (MWS), hull mounted sonars, ship-borne EW systems, central acquisition radars, coastal surveillance system and electronic voting machine. In the current financial year, BEL expects top-line growth of eight to 10 per cent with several new orders in the pipeline.

What are the operational highlights in 2014-15 so far?
The company has registered a turnover of around Rs 4,000 crore up to the end of the third quarter and will be able to achieve the planned turnover for the year. The major deliveries executed so far are passive night vision devices (PNVD), Schilka upgrade, 3D-tactical control radar (3D-TCR), low level light weight radar (LLLWR), missile approach warning system, laser range finder, akash weapon system, central acquisition radar (CAR), Ellora Mk II, Sanket ‘S’ and HUMSA 3G.

The major highlights of the year are handing over of the first 3D Tactical Control Radar (3D-TCR), a state-of-the-art, medium-range air surveillance and tracking radar and an upgraded Schilka air defence system to the Indian Army.

How does BEL’s order book look like?
The order book of the company on 1 December 2014 was around Rs 22,500 crore. The order book comprises major programmes like Akash missile systems for the IAF and the army, battlefield surveillance system, command information decision support system, fire control systems, passive night vision devices and some of the new generation radars, sonars and electronic warfare systems.

http://www.forceindia.net/ByInvitationBEL_SKSharma.aspx


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2015 08:34

MI2Watch: Opto-electronics on Samtel radar; 100 Sukhois now flying with desi MFDs - Dr Anantha Krishnan M, OneIndia/Tarmak

AFS Yelahanka (Bengaluru), Feb 16: Samtel Avionics is among the few companies that got on to the Make in India wagon almost a decade ago, before such a concentrated campaign was launched in the country. Samtel's MoU with the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), a DRDO lab in Bengaluru way back in 2004, set the pace for the company to get into the Make in India mode, delivering home-grown products.

In a freewheeling interview ahead of the 10th edition of Aero India, set to begin at AFS Yelahanka on February 18, Puneet Kaura, Executive Director, Samtel Avionics, told OneIndia that the MoU with DARE opened up new avenues for the company.

"The MoU was to develop indigenous technologies to facilitate production of rugged multifunction displays (MFDs) in India. This technology was successfully deployed on Su-30 MKIs under the Samtel-HAL JV. Later, we formed a JV with HAL to address the avionics requirements including Test Benches and Systems for all HAL star platforms - both fixed and rotary wing," Puneet said.

An early bird to Make in India concept

"Today over 100 sets of MFDs have been delivered by Samtel-HAL JV for induction on Su-30 MKIs are already flying. Sicne 2007, Samtel has successfully teamed up with global players such as Honeywell, Curtiss-Wright, and General Dynamics Canada and became part of their global supply chain aso as to manufacture their products in India for their international customers," Puneet added.

He said while the government is stressing upon Indian companies to begin exporting to global customers now, Samtel has already been doing the exercise for many years.

"We are the sole source for Honeywell worldwide for avionics equipment for their General Aviation range in the US. These displays have been in serial production for many years with the supplies going regularly to Honeywell for integration," Puneet added.

Over the years, Samtel has developed a range of products under the aegis of DRDO, using the indigenous ruggedisation technology. "Samtel and DRDO have been able to indigenously develop the technology to ruggedize Bare AMLCD COTS panel to withstand harsh avionics environment by maintaining high level of optical and functional performance of these displays during the operation.

The technology developed over an exigent five-year long development and qualification journey, is not product specific, and can be laterally deployed on any fixed or rotary platform," he said.

Turnover to touch Rs 200 crore

Puneet, one of the youngest and visible faces in India's aerospace and defence, admitted that the gestation periods are very longer in this sector.

"Even though we started in 2004, our supplies to HAL began only in October 2010. The first full year of revenue was 2010-11, when we had a turnover of Rs 50 crore. Total consolidated growth in last five years has been 400per cent, with the turnover projected to grow to 200 crore in 2015-16," he said.

At the AeroIndia exhibition, Puneet said that the company would aim to showcase a range of its star MFDs products and advanced avionics systems for military and non-military market.

"Focusing on the Make in India theme, we plan to demonstrate our competencies and our synergies with leading Indian and international players, which underscores our strength to deliver in accordance with global standards. Our booth will provide an insight into Samtel's ‘Push and Pull' strategy of partnering with global system integrators which leverages our joint strengths to cater to the Indian and international markets," he added.

New areas on Samtel's radar

Puneet said Samtel has already moved forward from being a display manufacturing company to a multiple-product, high-end technology company.

"One area of growth which will be the future focus of Samtel is opto-electronics. We have a very strong division in opto-electronics, where there is a lot of traction. We are also developing competency in Ruggedised Military Electronics - which is going to be a major focus area in the coming few years," he said.

He said the BTP (Built-to-Print) activities are also expected to drive the business into the future.

"We have also developed and supplied Automated Test Equipment (ATEs) to IAF, and as there is a huge demand in this domain, we are building capabilities in this as well. Our partnership with General Dynamics Canada is for co-production and co-marketing of products for military and ground market, for armoured and commercial vehicles - a relatively new area for Samtel," he added.

Products for Indian armed forces

* Samtel-HAL JV has supplied approximately 100 sets of multifunction displays to HAL which are currently flying on Su-30 MKI aircraft.
* Samtel HAL Display Systems has received the PO for supply of MFD for LCH from HAL (MCSRDC). Post development phase, there is a requirement of supplying around 750 MFDs for LCH.
* After the successful integration on LCH, Samtel says an opportunity might arise to integrate the same MFD on ALH, thus replacing the imported MFDs.
* Samtel has supplied 3ATI units to BEL for the Tarang programme. These units are meant for radar and missile warning receiver systems which will be integrated on many platforms such as Su-30 MKI, MIG 29, Jaguar, Tejas, IL-76 and MI-25.
* Supplied 19" rugged displays to BEL for the Battlefield Surveillance System (BSS) for Indian Army. These displays were required inside the command and control shelters to display a variety of information.
* Received the PO from CVRDE for Arjun Main Battle Tank's (Mk II) Commander Sight Displays. These displays would be integrated with Arjun MBT Mk II (124 Tanks) and Futuristic Main Battle Tank (124 tanks).

Products to be exhibited at Aero India 2015

* NVIS compatible Multifunction Displays
* Airborne indicators with inbuilt graphics
* Ruggedised land and naval Naval displays
* Large area, high definition ruggedised airborne displays
* Airborne Panel PC
* Wearable and hand-held displays
* Products for armoured vehicles by Samtel & General Dynamics Canada
* Live demo of TopOwl® Helmet-Mounted Sight & Display by Samtel Thales Avionics

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vaibhav.n » 17 Feb 2015 10:28

I am worried with the UAV space with Rustom's. According to the figures in the DRDO Brochure, both are not at par with their peers. for all of us, knowing the IA & IAF which happen to be the largest UAV operators will demand some parity between platforms. The Rustom-1 is in Searcher class and sports similar dimensions, has a marginal increase in speed and altitude but without Ground/Airborne Data Relays could lack endurance which the new Searcher Mk3 variants increases to 18hrs. Payload capability is also lesser. Considering that most new raisings would have to happen in the Searcher class otherwise we will be very late to catch up!!

The Empty Weight is also twice at 720Kgs for Rustom-1. Can someone inquire more at the show?

IAI has the Super Heron HF to offer now with a mission radius in excess of 1000 Kms with Satcom Links and Multi Sensor Payloads for High Altitude Ops.


Super Heron HF Technical Data:

Maximum takeoff weight (MTOW): 1,450 kg
Payload weight: Up to 450 kg
Endurance: Up to 45 hours
Mission radius LOS: 250 km
Mission radius with ADR or GDR: 350 km
Mission radius with SATCOM: > 1,000 km
Altitude ceiling: > 30,000 ft
Loiter speed: 60-80 kTAS
Max speed: >150 kTAS

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Sagar G » 17 Feb 2015 21:29

vaibhav.n wrote:I am worried with the UAV space with Rustom's. According to the figures in the DRDO Brochure, both are not at par with their peers. for all of us, knowing the IA & IAF which happen to be the largest UAV operators will demand some parity between platforms.


If you look properly then their is more than enough parity between Rustom 1 and it's competitors. IIRC Rustom 1 was only meant to be a test platform of technologies for Rustom 2. During testing impressed by the formers capabilities it was decided that it will be converted into a project in itself and inducted. So I guess there is some sort of understanding between DRDO and the interested parties regarding what they want in Rustom 1 and it being our baby we can upgrade it whenever and whatsoever way we want.

vaibhav.n wrote:The Rustom-1 is in Searcher class and sports similar dimensions, has a marginal increase in speed and altitude but without Ground/Airborne Data Relays could lack endurance which the new Searcher Mk3 variants increases to 18hrs. Payload capability is also lesser. Considering that most new raisings would have to happen in the Searcher class otherwise we will be very late to catch up!!


I don't understand how come Ground/Airborne Data Relays have any connection with endurance ??? I thought that endurance of an aircraft is related with aerodynamic characteristic, fuel capacity, payload and engine performance. Rustom 1 has an endurance of (from Tech Focus Feb 13)

MALE UAV has an endurance of 12-15 hr and can fly at speeds of up to 250 km/hr. It can attain a maximum altitude of 6500 m and has a flying range of 250 km.


The operational ceiling has been raised to 26,000 ft. i.e. approx. 8 Km.

The difference in payload capability is a mere 25 Kg and I don't know what war winning payload can the searcher mk.3 carry with that extra 25 Kg. If you know then please share.

vaibhav.n wrote:The Empty Weight is also twice at 720Kgs for Rustom-1. Can someone inquire more at the show?


This is something where I admit we have to "catch up" but I think the difference in weight might be due to use of composites by IAI and the lack of it by DRDO and a la LCA type over engineering. But this is our first attempt at making a MALE class of UAV so I find it unfair to compare it with mk.3 of a furreign company. The furreing company product isn't our design, we won't be able to make changes to it as we wish, adds no technical knowledge to indigenous industry and creates no job besides sucking up FE.

Seeing how "overweight" Rustom 1 is, I think the future versions will be more capable once composites are used and the over engineered parts are improved. Reduction in weight will also improve the payload capability as well as endurance. So a lot of scope for improvement which we can do as and when we want.

vaibhav.n wrote: IAI has the Super Heron HF to offer now with a mission radius in excess of 1000 Kms with Satcom Links and Multi Sensor Payloads for High Altitude Ops.

Super Heron HF Technical Data:

Maximum takeoff weight (MTOW): 1,450 kg
Payload weight: Up to 450 kg
Endurance: Up to 45 hours
Mission radius LOS: 250 km
Mission radius with ADR or GDR: 350 km
Mission radius with SATCOM: > 1,000 km
Altitude ceiling: > 30,000 ft
Loiter speed: 60-80 kTAS
Max speed: >150 kTAS


Yawn !!! Rustom 2 has a satcom link and also multi sensor capable, the feb 13 tech focus is very informative.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 18 Feb 2015 03:11

Rustom-1 should be ok - its in the same class as the Searchers and with a mix of local/imported payloads will be competitive.

Rustom -2, I would surmise LSP and then variants/improved versions for SP. The Super Herons or Eitan etc - are they even available for export?

ADE is interesting in that via the Nishant, Lakshya it gained enough experience to build the Nirbhay. Now with multiple programs underway, its capabilities in that arena will also improve. LGB and other PGM programs most likely. So per se, getting a perfect Rustom out of the door is not the only thing these programs are for & there are going to be very important spinoffs elsewhere.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 18 Feb 2015 03:20

Vaibhav wrote:The Rustom-1 is in Searcher class and sports similar dimensions, has a marginal increase in speed and altitude but without Ground/Airborne Data Relays could lack endurance which the new Searcher Mk3 variants increases to 18hrs. Payload capability is also lesser. Considering that most new raisings would have to happen in the Searcher class otherwise we will be very late to catch up!!


The only data relays which can possibly increase endurance are SATCOM, NLOS datalinks. Those are of better use for a Rustom-2.
As regards data relays otherwise, the Rustom program has made us quite competitive.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CU_kurXCs7g/U ... LE-UAV.JPG
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MFxkJJHV7aM/U ... LE-UAV.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KjGcN9Emab0/U ... al+UAV.JPG

What ADE is doing for Rustom 2 or rather, needs to do yet

- weight optimization
- advanced autonomous software - particularly automated TO and Land (right now we are limited to manual take off and land)
- advanced payloads (services want the whole gamut of advanced stuff; compact, lightweight payloads requires further investments in miniaturization and minimizing power and cooling limited to these small platforms)

Rustom 2 should be a decent alternative to the hugely expensive Herons even in its first version if the IA/IAF/IN choose to take it. Right now, our big issue is that we can only import a fraction of our requirements and even peacetime attrition is an issue.
Wartime will be far worse. Expect UAVs to be targeted all the time. So having a huge stock of UAVs will help.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby vaibhav.n » 18 Feb 2015 12:25

Karan,

A weight reduction exercise could result in increased endurance or payload, but AFAIK both the Rustom's are already all composite airframes. Could be done you could weigh in, I dunno enough here. They can even go back to Zephyr Aerospace which has a larger variant. ATOL, IIRC has been demonstrated.

http://zephyr-aerospace.in/images/pdf/1A.pdf

The all composite Rustom-1 based on the Rutan Long-EZ home built aircraft design and powered by 160-hp Lycoming engine has flown 30 time and logged 34 hrs. Rustom 1 has flown at an altitude of 20,000-ft and demonstrated an endurance of 5-hr. At the request of the Indian Army, the endurance is being stepped up to 8 to 10-hr. The aircraft cruises at 80-kt to 100-kt and has a max speed of 190-kt in a dive. Presently, the aircraft needs to be externally piloted during take-off and landing. The Army has asked for autonomous take-off and landing (ATOL) capability, which the ADE is working on, both for Rustom-1 and Rustom-2.


Fact is the IA/IAF can always pull a Arjun/LCA on the Rustom and demand parity in performance. So far, IA has however expressed interest for 7 Rustom UAV Troops (We don't know which variant).

India, on its part, has also set the indigenous ball rolling. After Nishant and Lakshya drones, DRDO is developing the `Rustom' MALE drones, with the Army keen to induct seven `troops' of them.


Rustom 2 will have enough time to mature, IA has been regularly inducting Herons and is under no pressure at a SATA Regiment level (which has 1 Troop of 8 Herons each). By my count IA should have between 8-9 Heron Troops for it Corps. The Tactical/Mini UAV space is what will heat up and the Israelis won't lie over and play dead. Infact, they have already put their best foot forward with the Make-in-India thing. I had earlier posted about the same for IA inducting Searcher Class UAV's with their Arty Bde's. These two areas will see maximum growth and need to be addressed as such.

As reported by TOI earlier, Army is also going in for two more `troops' (8 birds each) of advanced Heron UAVs for Rs 1,118 crore


Army also wants to induct man-portable `mini' and `micro' UAVs for short-range surveillance and NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) detection in the battlefield. Army, in fact, wants to induct these miniature spy drones right down to the battalion-level by 2017.


IIRC, Heron TP/Eitan is an armed version with hardpoints and a 1ton payload. Super Heron is an Multi Sensor Recce variant both have been lined up for export. Yes, the price differential would be crucial here as newer Herons have cost us ~50 crores/Airframe and locally developed Electro-Optical Pods and COMINT/SAR can go a long way in reducing the bill.

Link:
Rustom 1
Rustum 1 Pic
Indian Army Heron UAV
IAI & Alpha to produce Bird's eye 650 in India

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Suraj » 18 Feb 2015 13:51

Political thrust in this area:
PM promises steps to boost defence manufacturing sector
Inaugurating the 10th 'Aero India' show here, the Prime Minister said while the country needs to increase its defence preparedness and modernise its forces due to security challenges that were well known, it should aim to manufacture 70 per cent of military hardware domestically in next five years and remove the tag of being number one importer of defence equipment.

Stressing that developing domestic defence industry "is at the heart of the 'Make in India' programme", he said, "We will build an industry that will have room for everyone - public sector, private sector and foreign firms".

"From sellers, foreign firms must turn into strategic partners. We need their technology, skills, systems integration and manufacturing strength," he said.

He said the foreign players can use India as part of their global supply chain and India's frugal but sophisticated manufacturing and engineering services sectors can help reduce costs.

Also India can be a base for export to third countries, especially because of its growing defence partnerships in Asia and beyond, he said.

He said the government was reforming defence procurement policies and procedures.

"There would be a clear preference for equipment manufactured in India. Our procurement procedures will ensure simplicity, accountability and speedy decision making," he said.

Modi noted that his government has raised the permitted level of Foreign Direct Investment to 49 per cent and this can go higher, if the project brings state-of-the art technology.

"We have permitted investments up to 24 per cent by Foreign Institutional Investments. And, there is no longer a need to have a single Indian investor with at least a 51 per cent stake. Industrial licensing requirements have been eliminated for a number of items. Where it is needed, the process has been simplified," he said.

"We have to equip ourselves for the needs of the future, where technology will play a major role. As a nation of one billion people, we also have huge requirements for managing internal security," he said.

The Prime Minister said that effort is on to expand the role of private sector, even for major platforms.

Full Text: Modi's speech on domestic production at Aero India 2015

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Karan M » 18 Feb 2015 15:24

Some good pics here

Image

Image

Image

Image


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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Postby Vipul » 19 Feb 2015 18:11

[url=http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/hal-hands-over-brahmos-missile-integrated-su-30-to-iaf/articleshow/46298984.cms?imageid=41593113#slide11]HAL hands over BrahMos missile integrated Su-30 to IAF

HAL today handed over the first supersonic cruise missile BrahMos integrated Su-30 fighters to the Indian Air Force, making the aircraft a "very lethal" weapon delivery platform.

"Su-30 has become a very lethal weapon delivery platform with the successful integration of Brahmos supersonic cruise missile," HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju told reporters.

HAL has completed Brahmos integration with all the analysis being done by its internal design team, Raju said before the handing over at "Aero India 2015" air show, now on at the IAF air base at Yelahanka on the city outskirts.

Raju said HAL has provided a cost effective indigenous solution to BAPL ( BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited).

"This is a proud moment for HAL.The successful completion of the first Su-30 aircraft integrated with BrahMos missile shows the synergy between DRDO, HAL and IAF. We are hopeful of rolling out the second aircraft in a record time", he said at the event.

The Flight Clearance Certificate was handed over by Dr K Tamilmani,Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Director General (Aeronautics), to Air Marshal S B P Sinha, Deputy Chief of Air Staff. The Aircraft Acceptance Certificate was handed over by A M Raja Kannu, DG, (Aeronautical Quality Assurance) to Air Marshal Sukhchain Singh.

HAL said it took up the programme as "an indigenous challenge" at its Nasik division in 2010 and overcame several difficulties due to limited design data of Su-30 MKI. It received approval in January 2011 and order for integration was obtained from BAPL in January 2014.

BrahMos missile, an India-Russia joint venture, is a two-stage supersonic cruise missile with a 290-km range for destroying high value and strategic installation.

Speaking to reporters earlier, Raju also said HAL had handed over last month the first overhauled Su-30 MKI aircraft to IAF from its newly set up Nashik facility made with an investment of over Rs 2,000 crore. With this facility, HAL has developed capacities and capabilities to support Su-30 fleet for next 30 to 40 years, Raju said. This is only one of its kind facility in the world and has significant export prospect since nearly 10 countries operate Su-30 fleet, he added.


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