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Project 75I - It Begins

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Karthik S
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 25 Aug 2017 13:38

Philip wrote:3-4 Akulas will make acquiring Soryus unnecessary. Ideally at least 4 Akulas should be acquired,since their lease/acquisition cost is very attractive when compared with a large AIP boat.These boats cost almost $1B,when an Akula,which is 4-5 times larger and carries more than double the weaponload costs only around $1.5B max.Even cheaper would be acquiring Amur/Lada subs to replace Kilos which would cost around $400M at the most.We'd be able to get atr least two of this class for just one Soryu,or U-216S that SPore is getting.Extending the Scorpene run for upgraded boats would seem an answer,but the Scorpene data leak in Oz has had a devastating effect on the sub's future

Indo-Japanese def. relationship should be based upon a jt. strategy rather than simply buying one's milware.Perhaps buying a few US-2s for the IN/CG may suffice as a gesture,as we need amphibs and could stretch the budget to buy these v.costly birds.


Phillip sir, could you tell us why Russia is backing Pakis after Trump's recent remarks.

Philip
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 25 Aug 2017 13:44

Russia baiting the US after the US has imposed such asinine sanctions against Russia,expelling its diplomats,etc.It wants to stir the pot.Read the post about the mil. "coup" that's seems to have taken place in the US.where Trump's advisers,mostly ex-mil generals,etc.,are calling the shots on for. policy now.Russia too has interests in Afghanistan and is waiting to pay back the US for its "interference"when it intervened in the country at the behest of the then Afghan regime.It is a diff. situ for India,which has to play the Afghan card v.crefuly.Replacing Pak as Uncle Sam's ever-ready "rent boy" would be an utter catastrophe for Indian strategy,diplomacy.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Marten » 25 Aug 2017 13:50

Can someone please explain how Kockums vs Soryu works out price wise? Soryu appears to be $550mn per news reports. Wouldn't the Swedish boats be cheaper?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 25 Aug 2017 14:01

Hard to say cost wise between the two boats. Cause I am not really sure that kockums boat is a real design. Whereas the soryu is atleast in service with one navy. So the cost should be well known for soryu.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Aug 2017 18:02

:lol:

Rodina lover is really in a panic.

First Navy wants only 3000 tons so a 4000 ton Soryu is a no no.

Let's have nuke fuelled 9000 ton Akulas, instead since they will be cheaper to run than 4000 ton Diesel -Li On subs. :rotfl:

Oh and the classic argument, since Navy wants 3000 ton Diesel Submarine let's give them 1000 ton Natasha Amur submarines. Hmmm so solid.

Money must go to Fatherland Russia, even if their miserable submarines blow up in dock, hic hic where is my Stolichnaya?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 25 Aug 2017 18:26

#strongmove to have a few sailors standing on the hydroplanes off the conning tower.

for the likes of france, the SSKs are just export cash cows , they rely on SSNs.
for the likes of sweden, again they know russia will roadkill them in ww3, their lives depend on nato n-protection in a serious war, SSKs are cash cows like the gripen for local tech, jobs etc.
russia uses kilo only for black sea fleet to beat up the local goons. and it has backup, lots of it.

only Japan relies on its SSK fleet seriously because it has to. I would run with Soryu on this one. you need the guy whose life depends on it. they will afford as much attention as the USN gives to its SSN program.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Aug 2017 03:51

From the same link, in torpedo section, could it be a typo where speed is mentioned as 130km/h and range as 50 km? Could it be other way around as speed 50 and range 130?

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/03/03/soryu-class-submarines-japan/amp/

Type 89 is a wire-guided torpedo with active and passive homing modes. It has a maximum speed of 130km/h and can engage targets within the range of 50km. The torpedo can carry a warhead of 267kg.

Russian with Shkval manage 10 km range only at 200 km/h

Manish_Sharma
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Aug 2017 22:26

Ok found it:

. Specifications
Length 6,250 mm (20.51 ft)
Diameter 533 mm (21 in)
Operational
range
27 nautical miles (50 km) at 40 knots (74 km/h), 21 nautical miles (39 km) at 55 knots (102 km/h)
Speed 55 knots (102 km/h) maximum possibly 70 knots (130 km/h)
Guidance
system
active and passive homing modes
Launch
platform
submarine
It is a wire-guided torpedo that features both active and passive homing modes. Compared to Mk-48 (ADCAP) torpedo, it is slightly longer (6.25 m to 5.79 m) and heavier (1,760 kg to 1,676 kg), but has a smaller warhead (267 kg to 295 kg). However, it can be used at a greater depth (900 m vs. 800 m for the Mk-48).

A succeeding design is in development under the development name of "G-RX6".


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_89_torpedo

Karthik S
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 13 Sep 2017 18:17

Any possibility Soryu deal can be sealed during Abe's visit now?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Sep 2017 18:23

:cry:
Nope not a word upto now.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 13 Sep 2017 20:18

Karthik S wrote:Any possibility Soryu deal can be sealed during Abe's visit now?


Saar its a tender like MRCA where all parameters will be evaluated for 6 contenders. Only RFI floated till now. Expecting babus to do summer trials in pokran, winter trails in Leh and rainy trials in cherrapunji.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2017 16:25

If Soryu does not come through for whatever reason, Saab's A26 is the next choice IMHO...

Saab to pitch A26 for Indian submarine tender
https://www.stratpost.com/saab-to-pitch ... ne-tender/

SAAB unveils A26 Super Stealth 'Ghost Submarine'
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/09 ... ealth.html

Saab expands its A26 Submarine offer with now Three Variants to choose from
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... -from.html

Image

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prem » 18 Oct 2017 02:25

SAAb have one 4000 Tons Version

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 18 Oct 2017 02:26

^^^ I believe the 4000 ton is the Oceanic (ER) variant.

Prem
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prem » 18 Oct 2017 02:28

Good part can be desperate Sweden will finance it at ..10% interest for 30 years.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby tsarkar » 18 Oct 2017 12:32

https://www.stratpost.com/indian-submar ... test-four/

The Japanese did not submit their proposal for the RFP. Not surprising since they want to zealously safeguard their technology, as well as US components like Fire Control Systems and Sonars common with US nuclear submarines under ITAR restrictions.

The Spanish S-80 has serious design deficiencies.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby sum » 18 Oct 2017 14:16

And thus ends BRF wet dream of a IN Soryu

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 18 Oct 2017 14:16

I'd stick to latest kilo. Am not very confident on reliability of Scandinavian countries.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Austin » 18 Oct 2017 14:22

S-80 is a good choice it is just a overgrown Scorpene design with better capabilities good for logistics

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby chola » 18 Oct 2017 14:41

If getting a SSK is such a pain in the arse and at such high prices from firangis then we’d be better off going Unkil’s way with an all-nuclear sub fleet.

Right now, we own the SSN capabilities through Arihant and its coming variants. We don’t with any SSK.

A SSK is most useful if you have a comparatively weaker navy like NoKo or Cheen vis a vis USN/Jap/ROK who operates in YOUR littoral.

No one is going to operate in India’s green water, not Pakistan, not Cheen. There is no need for SSKs.

We can and do dominate our waters like the USN therefore like them we are better served facing our foes in blue water with SSNs than with SSKs on our coast.

It is one thing to build SSKs if we already have the capacity. But paying some phoren firm through the nose for an inferior class of submarine makes no sense. Rather spend that money on our nuke program.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 18 Oct 2017 19:26

The germans are probably going to win this one
The U-212/214 MKIed will win

If the IN wants a 4000 ton varient, the Germans have the U-216 conceptspecially targeted to India, Canada

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 18 Oct 2017 19:44

The enlarged 3-4K western conv. AIP boats cost a bomb.
The "Kilo-2" as the Russians are now calling their latest variant launching 2000km range Kalibir missiles frequently at the jihadis,still costs no more than around $350M a pop.This is a steal when Scorpenes twice as expensive carry puny Exocets of just 50+km!

We do however need numbers and boats like the Kilo,perhaps Amur too are reqd. for littoral warfare as Paki and Chin subs do carry sub-launched missiles with at least a 150-200km range.The Chinese have made great strides in their missile dev. and are selling their wares to the Pakis too.

We can't afford an all nuclear navy like the USN.The best solution is what Russia is doing, a combo of both conv. and N-boats.What we do need are a few more SSGNs Akulas,with a heavy missile payload.The former USN SSBNs like the Ohio class can carry up to 150 Tomahawks! I would contemplate just as the Russians are doing ,building two new classes based upon the same platform.One an SSBN and the other an attack Sub or even a multi-role SSGN. Each silo on the Arihant SSGN variant could theoretically carry 3 Kalibir type LRCMs with a 2000+KM range.Like the Akulas,each Sub could have a payload of 40+ missiles and torpedoes.

An SSGN variant of the Aridhaman+ could carry 24 LRCMs plus 24+ torpedo tube launched weapons.However for each such N-Sub we would be able to acquire at least 5-6 conv. boats.A balance has to be struck whereby we possess at least 36-40+ subs of all types.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 18 Oct 2017 19:54

PS:The German U-boats for Israel with two sizes of tubes ,larger ones for launching nuclear tipped LRCMs ,is another option that should be seriously looked at.I feel we need two conv. sub lines eventually to replace all Kilos and U-boats,one from the west and the other from the east,and two N-sub lines.Akulas are on lease so it doesn't add to prod. stress at home.One conv. Sub line in the pvt.. sector the other at MDL after the Scorpenes are all delivered.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 18 Oct 2017 23:00

The A26 at $550 mil a pop seems attractive. I wouldnt say the Sweds are unreliable. Even at the time of Bofors they were ready to tech transfer. It was our govt in all its wisdom that pulled the plug. They might be more willing as far as tech transfer goes too. There is a need to keep the MDL line active. 3 additiinal modified scorpenes should be ordered.The U214 has been around for a long time and mite be getting dated. Though the U216 or 218 could be considered. Is the condition that the competing design should have at least one submarine already built still valud?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Vips » 19 Oct 2017 08:27

What is the cost of the A26 Oceanic variant and the U216? Kilo 2 at $350 Million is a good option, question is how reliable are they in terms of their availability for active duty versus occupying parking space in the harbour.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 19 Oct 2017 08:31

Not a single U216 is built. Hard to determine cost. Not a single A26 submarine exists either. Again hard to determine cost. And costs in projects of this nature, tend to spiral way out of control. On that respect, the Soryu was great. Nine are already in service.

We have 50+ years of experience in Russian boats with the first Kalvari arriving in 1967. Please, no more Russian maal.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 19 Oct 2017 09:34

Karthik S wrote:I'd stick to latest kilo. Am not very confident on reliability of Scandinavian countries.

I am not worried about the reliability of Scandinavian countries. What I am concerned about is their ability to deliver what is advertised. Saab's web presence on the A26 submarine is eerily similar to the Gripen E. Full of empty promises and the moon. The A26 appears to be a great boat, if what Saab advertises becomes reality. See below....kudos to their marketing department. I am victim to brochuritis :)

A26 - THE DISRUPTOR
http://saab.com/naval/Submarines-and-Wa ... rines/A26/

GRIPEN - THE SMART FIGHTER
http://saab.com/region/india/gripen/

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 19 Oct 2017 13:41

Well the U218 is being built for Singapore so is the A26 for the swedish navy. The way our tenders go these boats will probably be in service in half a dozen countries beforewe decide. Looks like its going to be between the U214 and the A26. Dont see the IN going in for the scorpene . Nothing much to additionally learn there. Looks like the Russians will be paid off with the SSN project. Unless the French offer some serious tech for the SSN I think they are out of the running and will be given orders for 3 aditional modified Scorpenes.

And you are right Rakesh. Saab broucheres are good. Maybe DRDO can use their marketing agency :twisted:
Last edited by Will on 19 Oct 2017 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srai » 19 Oct 2017 16:43

Will wrote:... Looks like its going to be between the U214 and the A26. Dont see the IN going in for the scorpene . Nothing much to additionally learn there. Looms like the Russisns will be paid of with the SSN project. Unless the French offer some serious tech for the SSN I think they are out of the running and will be given orders for 3 aditional modified Scorpenes.

...


IMO, it would have been better to order an indigenous (70%) follow-on Scorpene SSKs. Lot more ToT and Indian firms supplying components and customized Indian weapons/sensors/C2. Lessons learnt and built upon. That is what seems to be missing.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 19 Oct 2017 22:36

Will wrote:Well the U218 is being built for Singapore so is the A26 for the swedish navy. The way our tenders go these boats will probably be in service in half a dozen countries beforewe decide. Looks like its going to be between the U214 and the A26. Dont see the IN going in for the scorpene . Nothing much to additionally learn there. Looks like the Russians will be paid off with the SSN project. Unless the French offer some serious tech for the SSN I think they are out of the running and will be given orders for 3 aditional modified Scorpenes.

And you are right Rakesh. Saab broucheres are good. Maybe DRDO can use their marketing agency :twisted:

Will, I checked the U218 cost via wiki. The SG Navy bought two of them for €1.6 billion (nearly $1.9 billion USD). At that price, the MoD Babu who has to put his seal of approval on the deal, will get an asthma attack (and collapse in his chair) when he sees that price. At nearly $900 million a boat, you will paying through your nose. Again through wiki, a pair of A26 boats for the Swedish Navy cost 8.2 billion SEK (US$ 958 million). That is under $500 million a boat. Great deal, but that is the local price. The foreign price will be higher...a lot higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A26_submarine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_218SG_submarine

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 19 Oct 2017 23:15

yeah the never ending learning mode continues...we learn and in parallel the state of art advances ... always tantalisingly out of reach, with vague promises of 'full TOT' if we pay some more ...

only those who went indigenous cut this gordian knot

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Sanjiv » 19 Oct 2017 23:17

That is not the cost of the 218 on the Singapore Navy Site it is a billion for 2 but that is a quote from a German industrial source
Singapore has a defence budget on 10 billion to spend 4 billion over 6-7 years would be a lot
The Singapore Navy has tried the Swedish subs in the past and purchased the German ones
Going for the cheapest tender and not spending enough is what has landed in this mess
Had we spent the 10 million to develop the Orpheus the HF 24 would have a success
Had we bought the Leopard 2 in 1980 rather than the T-72
We would not have been in the Arjun mess
Singapore with no real enemies spends 3% of GDP on defence
We with active threats all over spend less than 2% on defense and less than one % of GDP on R&D
The Chinese annual increase in R&D is more than our budget

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 19 Oct 2017 23:22

Singha wrote:yeah the never ending learning mode continues...we learn and in parallel the state of art advances ... always tantalisingly out of reach, with vague promises of 'full TOT' if we pay some more ...

only those who went indigenous cut this gordian knot



Singha ji! Missing you, Marten, Bose and others since GDF and nukkads went away.

Yeah, that’s why I rather spend money on our Arihant follow-ons. Those belong to us and I see no particular reason why we need to pay someone a shitload for SSKs when we can build SSNs.

Like the USN, IN will not be defending meekly in waters next to our coastline but would be meeting the enemy in blue water.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 19 Oct 2017 23:36

Agree with above posters. Make only SSN that we manufacture locally. Add 6 more scorpenes with AIP and call it a day. Adding a new line gets us nothing spectacular.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Ankit Desai » 20 Oct 2017 08:56

4 contenders left in fray for India's mega submarine project after Japan, Spain opt out

Sources said four ship-builders, Naval Group-DCNS (France), ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau (Russia) and Saab Kockums (Sweden) had responded to the initial RFI (request for information) issued by the Indian Navy for the conventional submarine programme called Project-75 (India).


Mitsubishi-Kawasaki Heavy Industries combine (Japan) and Navantia (Spain), however, failed to do before the deadline ended on Monday.


-Ankit

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby pkudva » 20 Oct 2017 09:03

Soryu would have been welcome. But the Way MOD works makes vendors nervous.

While Evaluation Wish India considers the Idle Time which MDL will have post the completion of scorpene, TOT Issues, the vast capability of Pvt sector & technical requirements while the submarine which will roll out in late 2020's provided concluded in 2019.
Future will be governed by ASW Capability considering the aggressive expansion of China & Ltd financial resources available in India.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 20 Oct 2017 11:55

Cost factor and other performance reqs. being almost equal will be the deciding factor. The performance key will be AIP/silencing. What weapons the boats will carry another key factor.The IN appear to want the boat to be the "poor man's N-sub" despite possessing N-boats! This will push up the price significantly.I feel that we should trim our PMNS reqs. somewhat since we already operate and plan to build more N-boats.The P-75Is should be very capable HUK boats,able to prosecute both AIP conv. subs as well as N-boats,armed with a variety/options of anti-sub weaponry (ASW Klub,long-endurance and WG ASW torpedoes,Shkval rocket torpedoes and other Klub/BMos-L tube-launched variants),depending upon the mission. In an exercise some months ago,an IN Kilo reportedly got the better of a USN LA class N-sub.That speaks for itself.We need around 18-24 + conv. AIP boats in the inventory and around 18 N-subs (6 SSBNs,6-8 SSNs and 4+ SSGNs).The Chinese will have 80+ and the Pakis 12+ post 2020.The IN will need to sanitise the IOR and have permanent sub patrols in the ICS to counter any Chin mischief. The no. of Chinese bases in the IOR planned and existing is only increasing. Therefor numbers of subs is critical,why the P-75I must also come in at reasonable cost.

The foll. report on Qs being asked about the OZ mega-sub acquisition from DCNS is worth reading esp. for the In that it does ntot suffer similar pitfalls.
The Qs mainly about the proposed "pump-jet" tech for non-N boats.years ago the Sovs. also tried a pump-jet syetm on a Kilo sub but it was never replicated.

Questions surround Australia's new submarine fleet's ultra-stealth propulsion technology
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-19/n ... ed/9058858
Xcpt:
Experiments 'went nowhere'

Defence analyst Andrew Davies of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute said pump jets were designed to be used in nuclear submarines, not the conventionally powered boats Australia would use.

Explained: Australia's submarine requirements

With the winning bidder for Australia's next fleet of submarines announced, attention turns to how DCNS will meet Australia's high endurance requirements.
"There is a real question about how you marry a pump-jet with a conventional submarine," he told AM.
"The couple of experiments over the years that countries have done where they tried to put a pump jet on conventional submarines went nowhere."
"It's tempting to think this was example of an engineer thinking in public," he said of Mr Billig's comments.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby darshhan » 20 Oct 2017 13:33

Cybaru wrote:Agree with above posters. Make only SSN that we manufacture locally. Add 6 more scorpenes with AIP and call it a day. Adding a new line gets us nothing spectacular.


Agree. Plus a fleet of Unamanned Underwater Vehicles(UUVs) of various capabilities should be the way forward for Indian Navy.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Oct 2017 19:01

I think the Arabian sea has a shallow shelf for about 100km from the coastline, so we will always need a combo of relatively small SSK's and some SSN for Blue water Navy operations along SSBN's for strategic detterence. Me thinks the reason the Japanese did not respond is probably the Saryu class is too big for our SSK needs.

We need SSK for brown water operations.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 20 Oct 2017 23:15

^^^
Why does a seller care how we use our subs! All they care for is either making money or sharing their cost burden. When was the last time Sony didn't sell you a play-station because you should study more?? :)


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