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Project 75I - It Begins

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Singha
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 12 Nov 2017 11:20

i have extreme doubts about the quality and efficacy of the French and UK N-subs SSN and SSBNs.

they are mainly kept to retain a seat in the P5 as a 'global power' and not any independent deterrence value which anyway the 15 or so Ohio SSBNs provide + land based MinutemanIII silos.

as mere running dawgs of the great khan, I doubt their quality is anywhere at par. just look at the numbers khan churns out and the levels of investment in anything thats remotely an advantage - its a rain of $$ vs a trickle in EU.

Russi n-tech may not be as a polished and elegant as Khans but when the day of the dog dawns, they will work ... their own lives depend on it.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Nov 2017 11:09

The only Brahmos that can be carried by a conventional sub will be the NG version which is 5m long and 0.5m in dia
The regular Brahmos is an 8.4m long and 0.6m dia beast.
Scorpene's bean is 6.2 m and Draft is 5.4m

A plug with 4-6 brahmos is doable - either in a 2x3 config or a big 2m tube with three Brahmos fit in

Gagan
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Nov 2017 11:53

Either P-75 I sould be an Indian designed sub taking use of consultants or collaboration of a major sub builder
or DRDO should build a few research subs, manned by IN crews to develop and refine indigenous conventional sub building capabilities.

The Naval Design Bureau with NSTL and its computers and long swimming pool at vizag can easily design these

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby tsarkar » 13 Nov 2017 13:39

Folks, visit to a shipyard or factory is no indicator of transfer of technology. The French are mounting another PR offensive for P-75I and also trying to cover up lack of ToT earlier as well as data leak. And the US personnel visiting INS Chakra is a crappy piece of news. That too has no bearing on any French deal. And the French specifically promised the Australians that no Barracuda or Shortfin Barracuda technology would be shared with India.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 09 Dec 2017 23:24

Posting screen grabs from the Navy's video depicting line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter

Image
Image
Last edited by Gagan on 09 Dec 2017 23:56, edited 1 time in total.

Gagan
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 09 Dec 2017 23:31

The sub has both Non-AIP and AIP versions.
The AIP can possibly be the PAFC DRDO AIP, LOX tank is mentioned. AIP seems to be a plugged in section
4 cell VLS is seen (4x2 cell ?)
Less length of the conning tower as compared to the kilos, fore end tapered as on the Arihant, small hump aft of the conning tower for the VLS

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 09 Dec 2017 23:37

Reminds me of the Brahmos Advert and Amur Sub with a slight hump behind the sail

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YA9NH6H3T1Q/U ... hMos-1.jpg
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/Amur_9 ... 005_14.JPG

Aditya G
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 09 Dec 2017 23:43

Gagan, the design is clearly double hulled. Is this a surprise? I think in dimensions it's effectively a mini Arihant with VLS to suit Brahmos and Sagarika.

Gagan wrote:The sub has both Non-AIP and AIP versions.
The AIP can possibly be the PAFC DRDO AIP, LOX tank is mentioned. AIP seems to be a plugged in section
4 cell VLS is seen (4x2 cell ?)
Less length of the conning tower as compared to the kilos, fore end tapered as on the Arihant, small hump aft of the conning tower for the VLS

Gagan
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 10 Dec 2017 00:01

Austin wrote:Reminds me of the Brahmos Advert and Amur Sub with a slight hump behind the sail

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YA9NH6H3T1Q/U ... hMos-1.jpg
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/Amur_9 ... 005_14.JPG

The Amurs in these pictures have only one level. The second level is the battery compartment

This P75 i sub has 3 levels, with the bottom level being the battery compartment. A mini Arihant indeed.
Instead of the N reactor, this one has the Diesel Generator and the Diesel Gen + AIP.

They might be building this at SBC/HSL right now for all we know. Or they might start building after the Scorpenes are done at Mazgaon

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srin » 10 Dec 2017 00:06

Austin wrote:Reminds me of the Brahmos Advert and Amur Sub with a slight hump behind the sail

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YA9NH6H3T1Q/U ... hMos-1.jpg
http://bastion-karpenko.narod.ru/Amur_9 ... 005_14.JPG


Aren't Amurs single-hulled ?

Gagan
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 10 Dec 2017 01:44

NMRLs AIP
Image
Image

Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 10 Dec 2017 03:26

There were 2 significant reports in the last sev. months reg.the conv. sub issue.That we were signing an agr2deement to work with Rubin(?) on an AIP system for our future sub.

Secondly, a few months later another report said that the DRDO developed AIP module would be used for P-75Is.It indicates that a working prototype may have been created in similar fashion to the S-1 at K'pakkam which validated the N- reactor for the SSBN.

While the drgs.appear schematic, the fact that double hulls are being considered indicate perhaps some commonality with the elderly Kilos.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 10 Dec 2017 04:02

A lot of work related to the indigenous AIP program has been going for the last 8-10 years at the Ambernath Ordnance Factory near Mumbai and indeed a working prototype has been set up and demonstrated.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Bart S » 10 Dec 2017 05:04

Vips wrote:A lot of work related to the indigenous AIP program has been going for the last 8-10 years at the Ambernath Ordnance Factory near Mumbai and indeed a working prototype has been set up and demonstrated.


You are missing Philip saar's 'point' though, which is that the designs and expertise was handed over graciously by the superior Ruskies to the incapable and ignorant SDREs who cannot do anything on their own. :wink:

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 10 Dec 2017 05:30

Philip ji
There is a report that the Russian AIP was found unsatisfactory, and that DRDO will pursue their own design, which the Navy was reportedly happy with.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 10 Dec 2017 05:48

Aug 2016 GOI declined DCNS wish to pass on their AIP sub tech.IN rejected DRDO's system for the last 2 Scorpenes as it was not ready, " only in the project definition stage".Adm.Arun Prakash, former CNS agreeing with the IN,was scathing about the DRDO saying it "was full of hyperbole and exaggeration".He said that it should first build a test bed on land and after that fit it onto an old sub before it was cleared for series production.

Early 2017 a report emerged about a tie-up/ agreement with Rubin for AIP sub tech.I think it was for L&T in the context of partnership for the P-75I tender.It is an old post of mine.Last news around a month or so ago is that the DRDO system would be used for the P-75Is. No word from the IN.What has happened in the last yr. is unknown .However, there is no report of it having been fitted to any sub, essential before clearance, or that a land test bed has been successfully functioning.I think this may have happened why the GOI/ MOD is confident that by the time the sub design is chosen, the DRDO system would be OK.A long time ago I suggested fitting it onto a UW barge just as we've been testing our missiles from.But even this cannot replace a sub operating at diff. depths and conditions.

PS:Hindu Sep 2017.All 6 Scorpenes to get DRDO's AIP system during refits starting from 2023.System will be ready by then.In this context the GOI is probably confident that the Desi AIP system would've been perfected and that when P-75I construction begins it can be integrated smoothly with it.

Further Dec 2017 Force report reg.Rubin's offer , IN sub fleet and warning about our old Kilos even though they're being refitted (second refit) to fire Klub class missiles,are old and can't last forever, especially once they've passed their lifespan dates .When asked why Amur's are being offered when major Rubin orders were for upgraded Kilos, R said that it was
better suited keeping in mind our specific reqs. in the P-75I tender. Amurs had a better ventilation system amongst other features.Therefore we could see Kilos being retd. from around 2025 .The new P-75I subs will have to arrive from thereabouts.A decision must be taken in 2018 on choice of sub.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Eric Leiderman » 10 Dec 2017 08:43

The pump jet technology the french are dangling is not a big deal, For surface craft it has been in use for 60 years. It now powers fast ferries with a BHP of over 25k giving them a surface speed of 30 kts
Yes there will be differences using this model on a submarine however they will be design tweeks for stealth at the expense of speed.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 10 Dec 2017 11:26

It could be just one of the design NDB might be working on we will have to see if this get serious pursued and what is the final outcome.

Gagan
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 10 Dec 2017 21:44

They should atleast build a TD version and let Navy and DRDO run it and improve it
Add the AIP once it is available 5-7 yrs down the line.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 10 Dec 2017 21:56

The posted picture is of a prospective sub design appears to be an early effort with the hump for the Brahmos tubes. Subsequent efforts should look at making the boat hull smooth and hydrodynamic.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby viveks » 11 Dec 2017 01:16

Does anyone have any info on which agency maybe testing the oxygen generation and reprocessing systems that help the submarine stay under water for more than...15 days. I have never heard of any one talking about that. Only reactor talk.

Singha
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 11 Dec 2017 09:19

Pratyush wrote:The posted picture is of a prospective sub design appears to be an early effort with the hump for the Brahmos tubes. Subsequent efforts should look at making the boat hull smooth and hydrodynamic.


given the limitations of a SSK power plant, it might be preferable to have a prominent small hump than enlarge the entire hull to make it streamlined but incur a huge weight (and speed) penalty . the small hump will increase a bit of drag and turbulence but might be lesser of two evils.

the delta class SSBNs definitely had a long and successful service life. and they had the ugliest humps possible due to size of the R29 Sineva liquid fuel SLBMs..40t but 14.8m long


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