Project 75I - It Begins

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Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 10 Jun 2018 08:39

Scorpene costs exorbitant when compared with other boats.Low indigenisation of type.Key components imported, spares expensive.
Design now dated and data leaked, thus the subs are badly compromised.Desi AIP has to be proven US, preferably on another sub.We should use it on one of the U-boats, the oldest perhaps for trials and induction .

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 10 Jun 2018 13:16

saar scorpene atleast is a known devil .... starting on another imported design will be as costly and 2X the time. to an extent all foreign OEM data is compromised but we have to live with it and develop our tactics around it.

we can look to fit more locally made kit into this next lot.

a totally indigenous sub is not feasible unless we make the really high value systems inhouse - the propulsion plant, the generators, the torpedoes, the integrated combat system , the 7 bladed propeller and all the masts. this will happen if PMO orders a run of 24 subs across 2-3 yards in tranches as the original P75I plan envisaged. 6 here and 3 there will not bring economy of scale.

the propeller on SSNs is always kept covered and machining and designing it is the epitome of the samurai sword makers craft.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 10 Jun 2018 17:48

The Scorpene data leak was different.2 factors.One data leak compromising its key characteristics and high cost for our non- AIP subs, even when compared with costs oc the latest German AIP boats.We must look beyond the Scorpene and plan for a successor series from the West along with a parallel line for the Kilo successor which could be farmed out to put. industry.The upgraded Kilos will last us upto 2030 max.,along with the U- 209s which also need an upgrade fast to similarly survive.There may be a problem with extending the life of the first two which were built in Germany as these are single-hulled boats unlike the double-hulled Kilos.

A G-2-G deal with the Germans the best option for Scorpene follow-on subs, as their AIP is also superior to the French Mesma.In fact Pak which already uses Mesma for its Agosta 90-Bs, is acquiring Chinese Yuan class subs with Stirling Engine AIP systems.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakarat » 10 Jun 2018 19:35

The Scorpene's characteristics are going to change once we incorporate the desi AIP and more indigenous stuff, we can bargain more with the french due to the data leak. The Desi AIP can be proven only when its used and its never going to be proven unless its fitted on a sub. Its time we start an indigenous sub program and should not go for foreign design after P-71i.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jun 2018 09:46

Having Aldready invested in the scorpene and Alh route where we keep investing in it for another 20 years till we own the design. This is what the South Koreans did over 30 years to the HDW's. But is requires strategic thinking and Nationalistic bureaucrats.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 11 Jun 2018 10:24

Singha wrote:saar scorpene atleast is a known devil ....


The question to ask is how much of this known devil is know to us and then to other devils around.

The Scorpene data leak was very serious and it is still unclear what is known about the leaks and unknown aspect of it , the navy was kneee deep into it hence they could not cancel the project as it would have affects the already depleting fleet.

There are other issues with Scorpene including 5 years delay in the program and it still have issues with its torpedoes and older ones getting integrated as temporary measure , The best missile available for it is the Exocet !

MOD last said it would go further with Scorpene program and has stalled any further purchase of Scorpene

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 596727.ece

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 11 Jun 2018 16:54

Start G-to-g negotiations with Germany for U- boats asap.
Later on a second line of Kilo replacements with the latest Ru AIP sub.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 11 Jun 2018 23:38

They are probably building a double hulled Indiginous design, both with and without AIP versions

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 12 Jun 2018 08:14

single hull is fine for our tropical conditions. will maximise internal space and simplify the design and placement of gear.

even the 688i class SSNs that routinely operate in arctic ice are single hull but a strong sail.

Image

Image

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesha » 12 Jun 2018 17:09

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... 5-2030.pdf
Indian naval Indigenisation PLAN(INIP) 2015-2030 posted in other thread has this to say about the NMRL's AIP program

3.10 Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) Solutions for Submarines.
Indian Navy is also exploring AIP solutions for powering submarines as it
offers considerable tactical flexibility. Operational considerations like low
noise, shallow water capability, size and manoeuvrability issues have
garnered Navy’s interest in non-nuclear AIP solutions. Indigenous
competence in this field is at a very nascent stage and is required to be
built up to the range of 225 to 250 KW for retrofitment on the existing
submarines/ incorporation in the new design
s.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 12 Jun 2018 21:17

^^
http://164.100.47.193/lsscommittee/Defe ... nce_43.pdf

As per this doc presented in lok sabha in march 2018, DRDO AIP is being executed as 3 sub-projects:

1.) Land Based Prototype for AIP with completion date of june 2018.
2.) Marinised Engineered AIP Energy Module (MAREEM) to be done by Aug 2020.
3.) System Definition & Engineering of DRDO AIP System on P - 75 Submarines and Development of Deliverable LOX System by june 2018.

Things do look like it is in advanced stage.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesha » 16 Jun 2018 20:16

Mr Sanjay Mitra is the Defence Secretary of India and belongs to the 1982 batch of the Indian Administrative Service. In the past, He has been the Chief Secretary of the Indian state of West Bengal and Secretary, Ministry of Road Transport & Highways in the Government of India. Delhi Defence Review’s Chandrashekhar Bhattacharyya caught up with Mr Mitra to discuss issues of current interest in the Indian defence sector.

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2018/ ... jay-mitra/
CB: The Strategic Partnership (SP) policy was ostensibly introduced to create system integrators in the private sector. Recent reports however suggest that what was meant to be the first project to be executed under the SP policy, i.e the Navy’s Project 75I, has instead been allotted to a DPSU. Can you confirm the same, and what would you like to say to reassure private majors who have invested significantly in shipbuilding capacity, if this indeed be the case?

SM: The SP model was introduced in four sectors as mentioned in chapter VII of DPP 2016. The construction of conventional Submarine under the Project 75 (I) is one of the projects identified to be progressed under the SP model. The process of obtaining the response to RFI from the OEMs of the Submarine builders has been completed and the Issue of Expression of Interest, as the next stage of the process, is being formulated. As enshrined in the SP Model, the strategic partnership seeks to enhance indigenous defence manufacturing capabilities through the private sector over and above the existing production base in the country. Keeping this broad objective in view, MOD may consider the role of DPSUs/OFB at the appropriate stage(s) keeping in view the order book position, capacity and price competitiveness. MOD is fully committed to implement the SP Model in full spirit to align itself with “Make in India” initiative of the Government.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakkaji » 17 Jun 2018 08:53

^^
What does all this mean? Are they going to give the order for P75i to the Private Sector or not? :-?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 17 Jun 2018 09:15

Going to a PSU. No private player.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 17 Jun 2018 10:14

That will also keep DPSU workforce happy, specially with election round the corner.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakkaji » 21 Jun 2018 06:41

Posting with caveat that the story is by Manu Pubby:

L&T opposes plan to give submarine project to Mazagon Dock

New Delhi: With the government considering a proposal to move a Rs 60,000-crore project to build submarines to the public sector on a nomination basis, India’s top shipbuilder Larsen and Toubro has sought the Niti Aayog’s intervention, asking that it be reserved for the private industry as per the original plans.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Eric Leiderman » 01 Jul 2018 21:03

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... programme/

An excellent article on the choices India has for 75I also touches on the Australian choice wrt the short fin Baracuda

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesha » 04 Jul 2018 13:10

With on-time delivery, L&T stakes claim to build warships and submarines
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/07/ ... im-to.html

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 06 Jul 2018 11:25


Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 06 Jul 2018 11:47

Oz subs are prihibitively expensive almost as much as an N-sub.They're an attempt to shove into a larger conv. boat N-sub capability.Futile as an N-sub has almost limitless endurance, far superior speed and power for all onboard systems plus greater weaponry.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 06 Jul 2018 20:23


^^ I hope we have learnt our lessons about Russian assurance of 'technology transfer' and 'joint design' from the FGFA and T90 saga. We should not fall for the same scam again and again.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Jul 2018 09:20

Vips wrote:

^^ I hope we have learnt our lessons about Russian assurance of 'technology transfer' and 'joint design' from the FGFA and T90 saga. We should not fall for the same scam again and again.



I agree partially, I see an opportunity here if the selected partner is L&T for ToT and not PSU shipyards. They have helped on ATV with success and we can tap on for our desi SSN as well.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 07 Jul 2018 09:35

If we can do one design for SSN and SSK, adopted from the Arihant SSBN, I am all for it.

The Russian angle scares me though. I agree with Vips. FGFA, T-90 (and let me add Vikramaditya and MiG-29K) are bad memories that refuse to go away.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakarat » 07 Jul 2018 12:36

The Russians gave us the BrahMos and helped us in the nuclear sub, T-90 was always only license building and not IP transfer like what they are suggesting for Submarine design. FGFA was also the Russian frontline so one can expect their unwillingness to part away many of the systems. Here they are offering joint development for only the Indian requirement and could be one of the existing designs getting adopted to Indian requirement, but India getting any design IPO in the field of submarine will always be helpful to us. Ones we have a design with know how and know why we can always come up with new iterations with Indian or western sub systems.

India gained a lot of experience while designing and building the Type 209 but lost most of it thanks to our political establishment. Even today if we can make our one design based on the 209 design documents we posses even if its just a Cheap, simple, rugged and silent design it would be good for us. If we have 10 to 12 of these simple cheap subs and also giving 5-6 to Vietnamese will give headaches to china

The Indian 209s based design and the Russian JV design will give us enough experience to design super duper designs in the future and can also be helpful in designing silent SSNs

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 08 Jul 2018 16:41

Kakarat wrote:The Russians gave us the BrahMos and helped us in the nuclear sub, T-90 was always only license building and not IP transfer like what they are suggesting for Submarine design. FGFA was also the Russian frontline so one can expect their unwillingness to part away many of the systems.


Brahmos is a Joint Venture and they still not allowing us to sell the missiles to other friendly countries. T-90 they went back on the agreement to give TOT on making the barrel. If the FGFA was frontline and too critical for them then why did they expect us to finance it and why initially agree to do the TOT? Nuclear Sub technology was given after we gave them a huge amount under different pretext like the 3 fold cost escalation on the Vikramaditya.

Bottom line we need to have watertight agreement and clauses with Russia and other countries when it comes to TOT. Nobody is going to part with it easily.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakarat » 08 Jul 2018 18:07

Vips wrote:
Kakarat wrote:The Russians gave us the BrahMos and helped us in the nuclear sub, T-90 was always only license building and not IP transfer like what they are suggesting for Submarine design. FGFA was also the Russian frontline so one can expect their unwillingness to part away many of the systems.


Brahmos is a Joint Venture and they still not allowing us to sell the missiles to other friendly countries. T-90 they went back on the agreement to give TOT on making the barrel. If the FGFA was frontline and too critical for them then why did they expect us to finance it and why initially agree to do the TOT? Nuclear Sub technology was given after we gave them a huge amount under different pretext like the 3 fold cost escalation on the Vikramaditya.

Bottom line we need to have watertight agreement and clauses with Russia and other countries when it comes to TOT. Nobody is going to part with it easily.


On Brahmos a friendly country for you may not be a friendly to them and we ourself are not that aggressive on exporting it

On T-90 the agreement was loose at many ends, I know a little bit more on it which I dont want to share

Your question on FGFA is valid if we have signed an agreement on co development before PAK-FA started flying but not after thy have 10 flying prototypes and close to serial production. We started talking on it in 2007 and now in 2018 we are still talking. If you want designs of a developed aircraft you will have to pay premium. It is not co-development anymore but customisation, its going to be just Su-57MKI

On Nuclear sub are you expecting them to give it free? No one else is going to give it the first place. In comparison just see US they want 1000s of agreement for just selling their weapons to us and even after that they wont give you tech for even a simple pistol

Yes we need a watertight agreement and make sure they provide us the tech we need. I would always favor a joint development of sub rather than buying a foreign design with the restriction on the numbers you can build, once we get a design IP then we can always develop better ones

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 08 Jul 2018 18:46

Then develop technology at home. Because if you keep on looking at foreign partner you will keep on getting robbed.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 08 Jul 2018 20:01

^^ Vietnam is friendly country for both India and Russia, still Russia is not giving clearance.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 09 Jul 2018 02:25

Rakesh wrote:Going to a PSU. No private player.


This is what happens when you play musical chairs with an important ministry like defence. Every time a defence minister changes , the new one takes a year to understand the ropes and then decides to change everything. Where does it leave the country? As far as defence goes this govt has been as bad as AK Anthony’s decade long rule,which is saying something.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 09 Jul 2018 09:04

Vips wrote:^^ Vietnam is friendly country for both India and Russia, still Russia is not giving clearance.

Brahmos competes with Yakhont so most countries friendly with both nations will go for latter since it’s cheaper price and comes with Russian incentives. For example Russia offered Bastion (Yakhont based coastal defense) to Vietnam.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 09 Jul 2018 18:00

Russia has offered but Vietnam again requested India to supply them Brahmos.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 09 Jul 2018 18:43

Can't agree more with KKarat.No free lunch for anything!
But BMos exports to non MTCR regime nations pose some problems and since it is a JV ,potential buyers may have diff. " friendship" levels with the 2 JV partners.However, I read somewhere that both sides had agreed upon sales to around 6 to 8 nations.Is there a production problem responsible fof the delay in exports? The Indian armed forces can't seem to get enough.With the air-launched version on the brink of mass production, our demand will only skyrocket .Perhaps another production facility is needed, as BMos- NG (smaller version) and BMos- H are also on the anvil.

Perhaps the Yakhont does not have as many variants ( like BMos) why Vietnam wants our missile. Russia has a range of various missiles for its requirements other than the Yakhont/ BMos which we do not have and thus do not need so many variants of Yakhont.Kalibir has been a monumental success and Putin's new missiles in the making ard top priority. Until our needs are met exporys will have to wait if these buyers want a specific model developed by the BMos JV , since the missile ( BMos) is not being produced in Russia.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2018 15:10

Bhell .. what do ya all know! And here we are all dickering about which foreign sub design to choose! This bid obviously is for a diesel-electric sub.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'

The Indian team has experience with the diesel submarines in service in the Indian Navy.

Can't be anyone else but MDL.

Do they have the IP for Scorpene or are they pitching a mod U-209? What do ya folks think?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby tsarkar » 11 Jul 2018 16:46

pankajs wrote:Do they have the IP for Scorpene or are they pitching a mod U-209? What do ya folks think?

Irrespective of whether they do or dont or are a front for French & Germans, this will be a great fingering of the Dragon on its supply to Pakistan.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 11 Jul 2018 17:17

pankajs wrote:Bhell .. what do ya all know! And here we are all dickering about which foreign sub design to choose! This bid obviously is for a diesel-electric sub.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'

The Indian team has experience with the diesel submarines in service in the Indian Navy.

Can't be anyone else but MDL.

Do they have the IP for Scorpene or are they pitching a mod U-209? What do ya folks think?


Holy crap! MDL got exporting rights to the U-209 or the Scorpene? Or even better, they have incorporated what they learnt into a brand new design?!

This would be so great if selected and built. Not just as a funger in the lizard’s eye but a real advancement in our MIC capability!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2018 17:22

tsarkar wrote:
pankajs wrote:Do they have the IP for Scorpene or are they pitching a mod U-209? What do ya folks think?

Irrespective of whether they do or dont or are a front for French & Germans, this will be a great fingering of the Dragon on its supply to Pakistan.

Exactly my thoughts!

Even if the Indian team doesn't win, and frankly I have very little no hope, the signal is unambiguous. You duck around in our neighborhood and we will do the same in yours. Today our capabilities don't count but tomorrow they will and that will complicate your security in your backyard.
Last edited by pankajs on 11 Jul 2018 17:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jul 2018 17:24

pankajs wrote:Bhell .. what do ya all know! And here we are all dickering about which foreign sub design to choose! This bid obviously is for a diesel-electric sub.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'

The Indian team has experience with the diesel submarines in service in the Indian Navy.

Can't be anyone else but MDL.

Do they have the IP for Scorpene or are they pitching a mod U-209? What do ya folks think?



This is what they mean by Chirag tale andhera.

Or darkness under the oil lamp. For Hindi challenged folks.

He he he.

On a serious note, I will not be surprised if it is a clean sheet design.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 11 Jul 2018 17:37

Pratyush wrote:
pankajs wrote:Bhell .. what do ya all know! And here we are all dickering about which foreign sub design to choose! This bid obviously is for a diesel-electric sub.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'


Can't be anyone else but MDL.

Do they have the IP for Scorpene or are they pitching a mod U-209? What do ya folks think?



This is what they mean by Chirag tale andhera.

Or darkness under the oil lamp. For Hindi challenged folks.

He he he.

On a serious note, I will not be surprised if it is a clean sheet design.


India should build precisely 8 diesel subs with AIP for Taiwan :mrgreen: .. maybe in a spanking new
facility that builds the 75 I s .. interesting .. that could give economies of scale .. 14 subs !

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby pankajs » 11 Jul 2018 17:43

chola wrote:Holy crap! MDL got exporting rights to the U-209 or the Scorpene? Or even better, they have incorporated what they learnt into a brand new design?!

This would be so great if selected and built. Not just as a funger in the lizard’s eye but a real advancement in our MIC capability!

Maybe one reason why MDL is back in contention for the new select and L&T is mighty bissed.

IIRC, U-209 did come with license for local production which was never used because of the scandal that followed. My be they are re-activating that license incorporating the learning from building Scorpene and design of Arihant. Plus Scorpene and Arihant would have allowed MDL to build relationship with vendors.

Perhaps I am being too optimistic but if this speculation is right that this is Huge HUGE!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 11 Jul 2018 18:42

Time for reality check.
Taiwanese must be smoking something really potent to even think of buying something as critical as a submarine from a country which has not built one for itself (of its own design) and which itself relies on foreign suppliers.
The Japanese will get the contract for sure.


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