Project 75I - It Begins

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chola
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 11 Jul 2018 21:26

Vips wrote:Time for reality check.
Taiwanese must be smoking something really potent to even think of buying something as critical as a submarine from a country which has not built one for itself (of its own design) and which itself relies on foreign suppliers.
The Japanese will get the contract for sure.


I don’t care who wins the contract but if someone from India is confident enough to enter a design for this competition then it is, as Trump and Pankajs would say, HUGE just HUGE!

I hope, I hope, I HOPE it is an original design. Maybe not just MDL either because there is no reason why the L&T design team can’t come up with a conventional design. I’m really looking forward to hearing more. Best story this year!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jul 2018 21:57

Vips wrote:Time for reality check.
Taiwanese must be smoking something really potent to even think of buying something as critical as a submarine from a country which has not built one for itself (of its own design) and which itself relies on foreign suppliers.
The Japanese will get the contract for sure.


Really, everyone starts at some place. Before they reach their destination.

This very thread had a post on a design of an an Indian SSK not one year ago. Which was an early design.

DRDO AIP is already in use on land. Which will be fitted to scorpean class boats during MLU.

MDL is has repeatedly stated that they can dilivever the next lot of scorpean class boats with AIP on time. As everything needed to build them is in place.

So no reason why the sub for Taiwan cannot be a derravitive of either of the two above mentioned designes.

Or a total wild card. Arihant design minus the nuke reactor. But with the diesel engine and an AIP.


So you have 3 potential Indian sub designes in contention.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakarat » 11 Jul 2018 22:33

One interesting thing in this Taiwanese competition according to the article is the Japanese entry is not by any industry but a team of retired personal from the Japanese sub industry

pankajs wrote:https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'


Currently, the preliminary designs will be accepted and reviewed before more detailed construction blueprints are completed. The Indian team has experience with the diesel submarines in service in the Indian Navy. The Japanese team reportedly includes retired engineers with previous experience working for Mistubishi on the Harushio class submarines, and large scale projects under Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby yensoy » 12 Jul 2018 06:41

Kakarat wrote:One interesting thing in this Taiwanese competition according to the article is the Japanese entry is not by any industry but a team of retired personal from the Japanese sub industry

pankajs wrote:https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3478897
Japanese, Indian teams submit designs for Taiwan's 'Indigenous Defense Submarines'


Currently, the preliminary designs will be accepted and reviewed before more detailed construction blueprints are completed. The Indian team has experience with the diesel submarines in service in the Indian Navy. The Japanese team reportedly includes retired engineers with previous experience working for Mistubishi on the Harushio class submarines, and large scale projects under Kawasaki Heavy Industries.


All these designs by "teams of retired cowboys" is because no industry wants to get blacklisted by the Chinese, at least not at the proposal submission stage. I am sure these proposals are backed up by actual companies.

Regarding Indian proposal, I doubt it is SSK/Arihant minus nuclear - mainly because one can be reasonably sure any blueprints sent to Taiwan will make its way to China. Unless we want to telegraph something to China... I am also sure Indian design wouldn't be from L&T - besides their unproven capabilities, they have too much invested in China.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 12 Jul 2018 07:50

Yeah, I think some of you may be on target. DCNS cannot directly bid for it, but Mazagoan dock probably can! :rotfl:

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 12 Jul 2018 19:14

Pratyush wrote:
Really, everyone starts at some place. Before they reach their destination.

This very thread had a post on a design of an an Indian SSK not one year ago. Which was an early design.

DRDO AIP is already in use on land. Which will be fitted to scorpean class boats during MLU.

MDL is has repeatedly stated that they can dilivever the next lot of scorpean class boats with AIP on time. As everything needed to build them is in place.

So no reason why the sub for Taiwan cannot be a derravitive of either of the two above mentioned designes.

Or a total wild card. Arihant design minus the nuke reactor. But with the diesel engine and an AIP.

So you have 3 potential Indian sub designes in contention.


Precisely my point. Why would Taiwan risk buying something based just on a design and no proven track record in terms of operation? Heck we have rejected so many systems from consideration in various competitions as they were just designs/proposals in contrast to the competing firms wares.

Having a design or a prototype and having it in active service are totally different things. If India builds something and has it in service then of course it will be taken seriously.

If India is offering a sub based on U209 design then South Korea has better chances as they have built these upgraded subs, have it in service and even offered it to Indonesia.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jul 2018 19:44

Name one sub design from a major navy that was proven in service before it's construction began and it entered service.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 12 Jul 2018 20:04

Name one country which allowed itself to be a guinea pig to validate a design from another country which has no track record of exporting a major defence system.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Jul 2018 21:32

When the Bush admin in 2000's promised it will provide Diesel electric subs it was speculated it will be U 209 subs built in India. Is it now being implemented?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jul 2018 21:52

When did the Bush Admin promise something like that? I am hearing this for the first time. Do you have a source?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 12 Jul 2018 22:23

Vips wrote:Name one country which allowed itself to be a guinea pig to validate a design from another country which has no track record of exporting a major defence system.



Then let Taiwan decide what they want. Let's not make the decision for them.

Ok.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 08:47

Even the japanese invited GTRE Kaveri to their mil air engine competition
The KSA army invited the Arjun Mk 1 for a competition

This has to be an MDL built U209 or a Scorpene (Depending if the Taiwanese prefer the Germans or the French)
I doubt if MDL has a clean sheet design - Navy Design Bureau does that, tests the out models out in vizag

BTW, the U-209 for the South Korean navy were all built in South Korea, under tech transfer. If Taiwan wants a U-209 design, they'll get it from SoKo, not MDL. MDLs current product is the license produced Scorpene

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Jul 2018 09:41

Soko is very worried about Chinese retaliation is economy and geographically they are very exposed to China, we finally get some leverage of Chinese supplies to Pakis

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby rohan1424 » 13 Jul 2018 12:15

We have already operated Russian and German origin subs and recently gone for french ones . Time has come for NDB to come up with a indigenous design incorporating best of all three with AIP module and maximum local content . If we can achieve that then it will be a significant milestone. We can then pitch this design to friendly countries like Indonesia, Vietnam,Bangladesh etc. Basically do what SoKo has done with U209.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 13 Jul 2018 12:49

Seems like the powers behind the scenes want India to be a collaborative partner with soko or the Germans to build for Taiwan.. this could very well help the p75i project by providing the economies of scale

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 16:19

Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2018 16:32

Aditya_V wrote:Soko is very worried about Chinese retaliation is economy and geographically they are very exposed to China, we finally get some leverage of Chinese supplies to Pakis


Taiwan itself is heavily dependent on Cheen’s economy with a million or more of her citizens living and working in the PRC just like SoKo. Any design in the hands of either will most likely/eventually end up in China.

But SoKo still placed THAAD and got enbargoed and Taiwan is going through with the sub and will get punished. But eventually things will be smoothed over by SoKo or Taiwanese tech transfers on things like chips or batteries. China’s rise was fueled by these deals (along with hacking of goras who are less inclined to horse trade.)

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2018 16:45

Gagan wrote:Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image


Fantastic! From which entity? MDL, L&T or a gov/defense bureau?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesha » 13 Jul 2018 17:49

Gagan wrote:Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image

Link seems to be broken..

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Jul 2018 18:14

Curious as to the design team.Probably a pvt. entity who had hoped for a P-75I order. Of the pvt. entities,only L&T have the capability having built hulls for our ATVs. There are other cos. who make significant components,less mentioned the better. Japanese designers have huge experience at building their own subs,but have considerable US components,which is fine as the US has now allowed sale of components for subs to Taiwan.
The key components however are the engines and AIP system if on offer,scopes,sonars command system and weaponry.Torpedoes from where? Unlikely that the GOI will officially sell any desi fish for fear of tickling the dragon's underbelly.So weaponry will have to come from elsewhere.European OEMs are reluctant to supply sub tech for fear of losing huge orders of commercial eqpt.The pvt. entity may have tied up however in secret with some global OEMs for supply of some eqpt. It's Taiwan's call.Cost factor may not be a problem as it is cash rich and Japan is closest to it.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 19:41

India already has two entities that can build the sub.
1. MDL
2. L&T, final assembly at SBC for the n subs.

So one wonders what is stopping an Indian designed sub with and without AIP from being built?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 13 Jul 2018 19:43

Also, the layout of this conventional sub has Arihant-esque features.
Specifically the front end sloping design and parts of the internal layout

dinesha wrote:Link seems to be broken..

Refresh the page onlee

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Jul 2018 19:55

MDL is babu.No chance of India officially supporting a Taiwanese sub requirement.HSL which refitted after a long period,a Kilo,could also do the same.After all the ATVs are being built at Vizag.

If a desi sub design was good enough,I'm sure that the IN ,which is a "builder's navy",and has taken the lead in building its own warships,would've done so. The very fact that it has invited foreign OEMs for the P-75I req. shows that our sub tech isn't mature enough for the IN's ambitious needs.Taiwan's needs are perhaps more basic as they're operating subs decades old,and are to refit these old tubs. In their context,AIP isn't required at all.A normal 45 day patrol by small silent subs,monitoring the principal PLAN's bases and Chinese ports is sufficient.They need large numbers.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Indranil » 13 Jul 2018 22:43

Gagan wrote:Line drawings of a double hulled conventional submarine, with and without AIP - India's own design
Credit to our own Aditya G from twitter
Image
Image

I remember seeing these diagrams here about a year back. It was by some DPSU.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 14 Jul 2018 09:09

How will tech mature unless it is put in production.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 14 Jul 2018 10:51

They must be having something up their sleeve.Don't forget that the U-209 sub designs secretly given to the S.Africans can be offloaded by us to anyone.
Intetesting VLS concept.The Taiwanese have their own Hsieung Feng 3 supersonic anti- ship missile.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kersi » 17 Jul 2018 11:20

Vips wrote:Name one country which allowed itself to be a guinea pig to validate a design from another country which has no track record of exporting a major defence system.


MERA BHARAT MAHAN


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