Project 75I - It Begins

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nachiket
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 01 Oct 2019 04:56

The IN has dropped the unobtainable VLS requirement now at least I hope?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 01 Oct 2019 08:07

nachiket wrote:The IN has dropped the unobtainable VLS requirement now at least I hope?

As of April 2019, the Navy still wanted land-attack cruise missile capability. AFAIK, none of the SSKs in the competition can carry a BrahMos VLS cell vertically. So it will have to be launched via the torpedo tubes.

Indian Navy kicks off Rs 50,000 crore lethal submarine project, wants 500 km strike range cruise missiles on them
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 718982.cms
06 April 2019

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 01 Oct 2019 08:58

^ Brahmos-m can fit in standard torpedo tubes but very little news regarding it this year.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Raghunathgb » 02 Oct 2019 10:25

I have a question, can the 1500 HP engine which DRDO is developing for army tank be used in Project 75 designed submarines? As I see currently scorpene uses 2 MAN engines of 1250 KW. The Bharat power pack engine defiantly delivers more power which should be sufficient for our SSK. Is that possible?

Edit : Currently Scorpene uses 2 x 1250 kW engines to recharge it's batteries. 1250 kW roughly equals 1676 HP. Considering the requirements of SSK , I think we need at least 1800 HP engine. Long time back I had heard a news on India Ukraine joint development on it. But no news afterwards.
Last edited by Raghunathgb on 02 Oct 2019 10:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 02 Oct 2019 10:38

The capacity built for the engine development will be useful for other projects but the engine might not directly be ported to the submarine.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Raghunathgb » 02 Oct 2019 10:52

Pratyush wrote:The capacity built for the engine development will be useful for other projects but the engine might not directly be ported to the submarine.


Why any particular reason ?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Oct 2019 15:07

To echo what Rakesh said, what's the point of Project 75I?

If existing Scorpenes are going to be retrofitted with AIPs (DRDO's or the French), why would we just not order 6 AIP-installed Scorpenes and just be done with it?

This is turning out to be an MMRCA style time-waste by the IN. Thought they were wiser than that.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 02 Oct 2019 15:28

Raghunathgb wrote:
Pratyush wrote:The capacity built for the engine development will be useful for other projects but the engine might not directly be ported to the submarine.


Why any particular reason ?


The size and power output of the engine along with rpm range. As marine engines typically have larger sizes and lower RPM range.

The sub will need engines in 4000 hp range. This is not the not in that range.

That's why the learning will be useful. Even if the engine might not be directly be ported.

Fast attack crafts are a seperate issue altogether.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Raghunathgb » 02 Oct 2019 18:19

Pratyush wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:
Why any particular reason ?


The sub will need engines in 4000 hp range. This is not the not in that range.



Afaik the diesel engines in SSK are only used to charge the batteries. The scorpene submarine uses two diesel engines of just 1676 HP. So i still think Bharat power pack which is rated to be around 1500-1800 HP should be good enough to power at least scorpene subs.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srin » 02 Oct 2019 19:31

Is Scorpene under-powered ? Doesn't increasing the power decrease its under-water endurance ?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesh_kimar » 02 Oct 2019 22:15

Raghunathgb wrote:Can the 1500 HP engine which DRDO is developing for army tank be used in Project 75 designed submarines?


The MAN engine used on Submarines has subtle differences from the regular product range. It's really State-of -the-art.

- The engine block is a special design, it acts as a "raft" , preventing vibrations and noise impinging on Submarine's structure.

- The valve train is very compact, maintenance friendly and high performance. They optimised it not only for higher engine performance, but it emits very less sound. It can be dismantled externally for easy maintenance, it's seperate from the block.

- The air intake and snorkel have very superior noise reduction technologies. Snorkel deployment very carefree.

- The engine is very compact for its 1250 kW power output. The Germans combined a turbocharger and a supercharger in the same package, for high fuel efficiency and high power supply in a smaller package.

- The computers and control systems are state of the art. It runs well on all regimes.

- Your suggestion to incorporate the DRDO unit on submarines is laudable, exactly what all countries were doing in the 1960s and 1970s. However, to achieve similar performance as the MAN in unit won't be easy.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesh_kimar » 02 Oct 2019 22:28

*added later.
- The engine is coupled to a special gearbox from Renk, who build this version only for MAN.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Oct 2019 10:55

It wont be easy but better to try, I think given our requirement for coastal defense, we will always need some Diesel Electric subs and cant move to a fully Nuke based Sub force.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kersi » 03 Oct 2019 13:26

I think the Scorpene class has MTU engines

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby chola » 03 Oct 2019 13:31

Prem Kumar wrote:To echo what Rakesh said, what's the point of Project 75I?

If existing Scorpenes are going to be retrofitted with AIPs (DRDO's or the French), why would we just not order 6 AIP-installed Scorpenes and just be done with it?

This is turning out to be an MMRCA style time-waste by the IN. Thought they were wiser than that.


Eh, it is the same old thing concerning proper planning. We are desi and this is just the way we are.

Look, we started off with the Type 209 just like South Korea.

So like any properly planned roadmap, the Koreans learned from der Germans their skills and techniques in building U-boats. Type 209 became the indigenous Chang Bogo I, then Chang Bogo II, then Chang Bogo III, then Type-214 equivalent AIP and finally the JangBogo with VLS. ALL with their DNA passed down from the original HDW ToT.

We, on the other hand, built the Type 209 a fine choice but accompanied by another desi specialty (corruption.) Then we clean slate everything by switching to Scorpene and starting over with French stuff. And now we wipe the board clean again(!) with another project. We obviously do not believe in building on a foundation.

So what is the point? More work and skimming opportunities for babus as we start on new round of negotiations and procurement with phoreners, that is the point!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby tandav » 03 Oct 2019 14:46

chola wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:To echo what Rakesh said, what's the point of Project 75I?

If existing Scorpenes are going to be retrofitted with AIPs (DRDO's or the French), why would we just not order 6 AIP-installed Scorpenes and just be done with it?

This is turning out to be an MMRCA style time-waste by the IN. Thought they were wiser than that.


Eh, it is the same old thing concerning proper planning. We are desi and this is just the way we are.

Look, we started off with the Type 209 just like South Korea.

So like any properly planned roadmap, the Koreans learned from der Germans their skills and techniques in building U-boats. Type 209 became the indigenous Chang Bogo I, then Chang Bogo II, then Chang Bogo III, then Type-214 equivalent AIP and finally the JangBogo with VLS. ALL with their DNA passed down from the original HDW ToT.

We, on the other hand, built the Type 209 a fine choice but accompanied by another desi specialty (corruption.) Then we clean slate everything by switching to Scorpene and starting over with French stuff. And now we wipe the board clean again(!) with another project. We obviously do not believe in building on a foundation.

So what is the point? More work and skimming opportunities for babus as we start on new round of negotiations and procurement with phoreners, that is the point!


Difference is that Korea gave HDW submarine work to Daewoo Ship Work and we gave it to a state run unit.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 06 Oct 2019 22:36

France is now proposing a new conventional submarine design which is smaller then the Barracuda and larger then Scorpene for the 75I tender.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2019 03:41

Source?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2019 03:52

Found something in this article. Some good pictures as well.

Following the commissioning of INS Khanderi, what is Naval Group’s outlook in India?
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -in-india/
03 Oct 2019

Naval Group is therefore thinking about a whole new design for the Project 75I. As Naval News learned from Naval Group officials, “it will neither be a stretched Scorpène derivative, nor a Barracuda family derivative”. French proposal for P75I could then be a new design displacing around 3,000 tons specifically adapted for Indian Navy needs.

While the Scorpène is a best seller in the 2,000 tons-category, the Barracuda design is in a league of its own, in the +5,000 tons-category. A new 3,000 tons ship could fill a gap in Naval Group products family and allow the French company to compete with the Russian Lada-class, Japanese Sōryū-class, Chinese Yuan-class or even Spanish S-80 Plus design.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 07 Oct 2019 04:06

Don't think the IN would like to be Guinea pig for a whole new design !

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 07 Oct 2019 06:15

With the French now proposing a new unproven design, Germany will be the front runner and Korea can emerge as the dark horse.Their submarine is 3000 ton class and has VLS capability.
Russia would have to offer something extra and very substantial if they want India to select Amur.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Oct 2019 10:11

kit wrote:Don't think the IN would like to be Guinea pig for a whole new design !


Could it be possible that Naval Bureau of Design has a unique design of its own already & they are just looking for expertise of a foriegn company to implement it, ironing out the kinks and integrating various systems.

They don't seem to be window shopping of various designs THEY SEEM TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 07 Oct 2019 10:22

Manish_Sharma wrote:
kit wrote:Don't think the IN would like to be Guinea pig for a whole new design !


Could it be possible that Naval Bureau of Design has a unique design of its own already & they are just looking for expertise of a foriegn company to implement it, ironing out the kinks and integrating various systems.

They don't seem to be window shopping of various designs THEY SEEM TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT.


It might be because the Navy is the user and the design bureau is theirs ? .. but when going foreign you need to take what is out there .. but a deep tech transfer collaboration can happen if the two design bureaus work together and get a derivative based on a proven design. Most likely the latter.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2019 17:59

And it looks like the IN is still very much interested in a VLS missile cell. I thought this was not doable.

South Korea's Dosan Ahn Changho Class submarine offers a VLS cell.

Image

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 07 Oct 2019 19:21

The French after thd Scorpene leaks and promise to Oz never to give India a superior sub design have torpedoed themselves. The Germans are front runners if they offer a Brahmos equipped sub.The Q is will the Russians agree as the programme is a JV and they would not like to lose out on yheir advantage of BMos and perhaps Kalibit too which would be an unbeatable offer.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 07 Oct 2019 19:31

I've mentioned this before, let's do away with this 75I entirely and invest the money for additional SSNs. We have plans for 6, we can make it 9-10 based on price of European conventional subs.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2019 01:27

I think an SSN will cost between $1-1.5B depending upon size.It will also take considerable time building them.
Conventional boats would cost 1/3 if Russian and a minimum of around 1/2 if western. We need numbers given our huge task of sanitising the IOR from the chokepoints, Gulf, bottling up the PN, cover for our CBGs and SSBNs too. The latter two best served by SSN/ SSGNs.Add to this further op patrols in the Indo- China Sea, ASEAN and Pacific waters. Fiji is in some respects akin to Mauritius and the intetests of ihe Indian diaspora
in the Asia-Pacific must be factored in.The shallow waters around our coastline are also more favourable for conv. boats.

My fear is that we are falling into the LCA trap in trying to give the 75-Is near N-boat capability. The two are akin to chalk and cheese.We do not need a large conv. boat of the size that OZ, SoKo and Japan are building as they have no N-boats. Our fleet of SSN/ SSGNs should suffice.The complexity and cost of large conventional AIP subs, plus building time would make them less cost- effective than any N-boat.Israel has effectively managed to leverage its diesel boats from Germany to have a better striking capability with two sizes of TTs. They are under 2Kt

3 to 4 leased upgraded Akula SSGNs , plus our 6 SSNs would give us the number of SSNs required as Kartik has proposed.
Last edited by Philip on 09 Oct 2019 07:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 09 Oct 2019 03:30

Rakesh wrote:And it looks like the IN is still very much interested in a VLS missile cell. I thought this was not doable.

South Korea's Dosan Ahn Changho Class submarine offers a VLS cell.

Ah, so we're still a good 10-12 years away from inducting anything then, since no such sub exists (beyond models) and the single Changho class under sea trials. But that will make it a single-vendor situation and the tender will be canceled in our finest traditions.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2019 16:22

Karthik S wrote:I've mentioned this before, let's do away with this 75I entirely and invest the money for additional SSNs. We have plans for 6, we can make it 9-10 based on price of European conventional subs.


It's not just sub numbers but new tech acquisition as well., don't mistake the leaves for the trunk !!., whichever manufacturer comes up with significant AND relevant tech stands to make billions.

P75I is last line of foreign sub acquisitions. All other tech is already on an indigenous development path.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 10 Oct 2019 18:38

I wonder why the IN + DRDO + a Foreign partner (preferably a western one), don't collaborate to make an Indiginous sub?
I had posted pics of a DRDO VLS equipped double hulled conventional sub design that India was working on.
One wonders, that if India is building Nuke subs, now going on to SSBN, why is the IN wanting to import or make in India a foreign design? I thought that the Scorpene would have been the last imported sub. A midlife upgrade there should incorporate either the DRDO or a french AIP.

The SoKo KSS-3 sub looks quite attractive, but it is still under construction and will be inducted in 2025 only.
Bear in mind, that SoKo is planning to build 2 nuclear subs, and there is a possibility that the country might actually go down the nuclear weapons route, at least a bomb in the basement kind, in response to NoKo's dadagiri.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 10 Oct 2019 18:43

Perhaps what the N subs lack comes from Russia.
India probably wants foreign collaboration to outright import those components that domestic industry does not yet make.
They will get a western partner to fill in the gaps

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 10 Oct 2019 18:49

The SoKo's sub program is worth looking at. Heavy German Influence, TOT was obtained.
Their KSS-1 subs were the HDW T209 (Chang Bo-Go class) subs. They built 9 of these, exported a few as well. (The same ones Rajiv Gandhi bought, then cancelled after 4 boats)
Their KSS-2 subs are the AIP equipped Type 214 (Sohn Won-il class), which are being built. They will have 9 of these as well.
Their KSS-3 subs (Dosan Ahn Changho class) are a domestic design with 6 VLS tubes and AIP. The lead boat was launched this year and is in sea trials. The next version of this sub the Batch II, will have 10 VLS tubes instead of 6.

Their next step is 2 N powered boats which might be the KSS-3 Batch III

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Anthony Hines » 11 Oct 2019 11:35

More the reason to have private shipbuilders take lead and work on 75I or derivatives.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 12 Oct 2019 03:58

Even SoKo is now planning to acquire N-subs. They've realised that a big fat conventional AIP boat can't replicate an N-sub. Our P-75I programme must be hastened very quickly by a quick decision and speedy acquisition of the first few units from the OEM. We can't afford another Scorpene fiasco.6 years late and millions extra in cost escalation.

Acquiring a few more N-subs from Ru on lease until our SSNs are in service must be pursued.There are a few more Akula hulls that can be modernised and delivered quickly should we wish it. AIP subs too on offer, but our 75-I boats should be slanted to a primary role of HUK ops. and not meant to be a " jack of all missions" ...and masters of none.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Oct 2019 07:53

A quick note.This thread was started in 2014, soon it will be 2020.Almost 6 years on and not even the firm technical offers from the OEMs haven't come in ! At this rate even by 2030 we'll be operating perhaps just one of two of the chosen subs and our aging Kilos may be going in for their 3rd. or 4th. refit, operating them for 50 years just like our MIG-21s.Shameful!

There is no alternative other than ordering subs from Germany or Russia of both, several built by the OEMs to replace the U-boats and Kilos.They build them cheaper too if you examine several imported weapon sysyems which we manufacture at home like Scorpense and MKIs. What we can demand is the tech. transfer for manfacturing additional units also enabling us to manufacture most key components and support infra. to enable us to maintain them with a high % of operational ability.At least 9 to 12 boats oc a type should be planned for.The first 3 built abroad at speed to bolster badly depleted numbers and the remainder at home.

We operate a grand total of 13 ancient submariners.The Scorpene design, performance leaked out is already a dated one and our 6 will not have any AIP system to boot when numerous lesser navies of much smaller navies possess like SoKo and Japan- and Pak too, collectively , a few dozen of them and have been operating AIP boats for over a decade.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby prashanth » 13 Oct 2019 10:25

kit wrote:
Karthik S wrote:I've mentioned this before, let's do away with this 75I entirely and invest the money for additional SSNs. We have plans for 6, we can make it 9-10 based on price of European conventional subs.


It's not just sub numbers but new tech acquisition as well., don't mistake the leaves for the trunk !!., whichever manufacturer comes up with significant AND relevant tech stands to make billions.

P75I is last line of foreign sub acquisitions. All other tech is already on an indigenous development path.


I had replied on this to Singha sir long time back. It is not feasible (for India) to simply choose SSNs over conventional submarines, mainly due to scarcity of nucl3ar fuel and operational costs.. SSBns take priority over SSNs. AIP or not, it may be wise for us to mass manufacture SSks and deploy in large numbers in BoB and Arabian sea, so as to create a safe environment for Arihant class to operate. This is what the China seems to have done. We have the tech already in Scorpene. AIP can come later.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srai » 13 Oct 2019 14:46

IMO, India/IN should have taken the following approach:
  • 6 x P-75
  • 3 x P-75 w/ increased indigenous content
  • 6 x P-75I
  • 3 x P-75I w/ increased indigenous content
  • 6 x Indigenous SSK
  • 6 x Improved Indigenous SSK

What’s missing in the current situation is the lack of continuity of lessons learnt through ToT and applying those to build more of the class but with the incorporation of a lot more indigenous major/minor sub-components/modules.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Oct 2019 17:47

Kilos are being built one every two years.Unless we reduce the time taken for building our subs, we will be far outstripped by China in the coming decade who would be able to devote a large part of its sub fleet for the IOR to contain India.
The 75-I decision has to be fast- fowarded, order increased to at least 9 and at least 2 to 3 subs acquired at speed from the OEM.A G-2-G decision may be required.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby astal » 14 Oct 2019 03:39

chola wrote:
Eh, it is the same old thing concerning proper planning. We are desi and this is just the way we are.

Look, we started off with the Type 209 just like South Korea.

So like any properly planned roadmap, the Koreans learned from der Germans their skills and techniques in building U-boats. Type 209 became the indigenous Chang Bogo I, then Chang Bogo II, then Chang Bogo III, then Type-214 equivalent AIP and finally the JangBogo with VLS. ALL with their DNA passed down from the original HDW ToT.

We, on the other hand, built the Type 209 a fine choice but accompanied by another desi specialty (corruption.) Then we clean slate everything by switching to Scorpene and starting over with French stuff. And now we wipe the board clean again(!) with another project. We obviously do not believe in building on a foundation.

So what is the point? More work and skimming opportunities for babus as we start on new round of negotiations and procurement with phoreners, that is the point!


Based on the requests in the current document, it looks like the Navy and Defense ministry intends to do exactly what S. Korea did, at least with the P75I. They have no further desire to purchase any other foreign diesel sub type after the P75I. It is explicitly spelled out that India must have the right to produce as many copies of the sub as it requires once the initial subs are produced, and improve upon it in the subsequent versions. The company that offers the most indigenization within a reasonable cost will win.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Oct 2019 22:44

Philip wrote:Kilos are being built one every two years.Unless we reduce the time taken for building our subs, we will be far outstripped by China in the coming decade who would be able to devote a large part of its sub fleet for the IOR to contain India.
The 75-I decision has to be fast- fowarded, order increased to at least 9 and at least 2 to 3 subs acquired at speed from the OEM.A G-2-G decision may be required.

That's not going to happen not with the customized variant they are looking for. It may be much better to order an extra few numbers of the existing scorpion or kilo by the time the p75i if finalized.


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