Project 75I - It Begins

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Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2019 04:54

Our " customisation" brings with it the two added factors of extra cost- for the bells and whistles wanted and secondly considerable time delay as these would be "first editions". We've lost the common sense approach of yesteryear where we first acquired vanilla models then upgraded them. This would be fine if we were on track regularly replacing old tubs, but we are in a critical state where 13 of our 15 conventional subs are 30+ years old undergoing second refits! None of them including the " new" Scorpenes are AIP too, despite Pak, Malaysia, SoKo and Japan-not to mention the dragon in the ocean China, have been operating AIP subs for almost 2 decades.

Our N-sub programme for 6 desi SSNs will take at least a decade to develop and build the first ones,. SSBN boats are easier and cheaper to build. Look at Russian examples. Perhaps acquiring another 2+ modernised Akula SSGNs giving us a total of 4, would enhance our blue- water undersea capability. If we really want to augment our conventional sub capability, then acquiring at speed readily available AIP designs in a preliminary batch is the right way.

Vips
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 31 Oct 2019 22:41

After Saab, news is that the Germans have wet their salwars on the terms and conditions of the P75i contract and have withdrawn from bidding. Unless South Korea makes a good and compelling bid this contract seems ready made for the French to win. Question is if lack of meaningful competition will make them over confident and try to hoodwink us?
Last edited by Vips on 31 Oct 2019 23:20, edited 1 time in total.

nachiket
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 31 Oct 2019 22:53

More likely that it will get whittled down to a single-vendor contest which will then get cancelled (after 2 years of internal chai-biskoot in the MoD). Better that the Navy asks for withdrawal of the tender now and changes the requirements so that existing designs can make it through. Asking for unobtainium will get us nothing.

Vips
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 31 Oct 2019 23:20

It is not the technology or design that is making the vendors nervous. It is only 49% ownership in the joint venture with 100% liability for any slippages that is the root cause.I think we need to negotiate with the French for 3 additional scorpenes (with installation of our indigenous AIP) as a stop gap measure to account for the additional chai biskoot sessions that will follow.

Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 01 Nov 2019 01:50

Vips, are you sure the Germans have retreated? If so a great pity. I thought that Frau Merkel was to make a strong pitch for her U-boats during her visit.I am quite sceptical of the French winning the contest.Three factors.Scorpene leaks, promise to Oz to never give India equivalent sub-tech and the high cost of their subs.A further factor is that the Russians will never allow any of their advanced sub-launched missiles like Kalibir and B' Mos to be fitted onto any competition. The SoKo boats have significant German components with the basic design heavily borrowing from follow-on U-&boats

We should as was planned two decades ago have two lines of conventional subs , one western and one Ru. U-boats could replace the Scorpenes, perhaps a few more to end the series with 8 of 9 and a new U-boat lind to replace our 4 U-209/1500s. The Ru line a custom- designed boat to meet our unique needs based upon either the Amur which is now being built in series for the RuN or future Kalina class. The DRDO AIP system should mature within a couple of years and feature on both boats.

nachiket
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 01 Nov 2019 02:02

Vips wrote:It is not the technology or design that is making the vendors nervous. It is only 49% ownership in the joint venture with 100% liability for any slippages that is the root cause.I think we need to negotiate with the French for 3 additional scorpenes (with installation of our indigenous AIP) as a stop gap measure to account for the additional chai biskoot sessions that will follow.

No company worth its salt would agree to something like that without massively overcharging for whatever they promise to deliver. In this case the only ones who would not have a problem signing on the dotted line would be the Russians since contractual obligations don't mean anything to them anyway as we saw during the Gorshkov saga.

astal
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby astal » 01 Nov 2019 02:43

nachiket wrote:
Vips wrote:It is not the technology or design that is making the vendors nervous. It is only 49% ownership in the joint venture with 100% liability for any slippages that is the root cause.I think we need to negotiate with the French for 3 additional scorpenes (with installation of our indigenous AIP) as a stop gap measure to account for the additional chai biskoot sessions that will follow.

No company worth its salt would agree to something like that without massively overcharging for whatever they promise to deliver. In this case the only ones who would not have a problem signing on the dotted line would be the Russians since contractual obligations don't mean anything to them anyway as we saw during the Gorshkov saga.


It looks like the whole intent of P75 I is to speed up indigenous diesel sub development.The Germans had earlier provided both India and South Korea technology for the Type 209's. They may not be averse to getting their hands on some cash rather than having their customers the So Koreans have it. If the Germans are ready to play ball and provide India what is mentioned in the request, surely the French will also try to win the contract.

I hope it is a three way contest with the contract going to the best offer. If not, I believe India can build her own Diesel Subs, perhaps with some hand holding from Russia. It may take 10 years extra and we may need to buy a small number of interim Kilos or Scorpene's.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 01 Nov 2019 09:02

Philip wrote:Vips, are you sure the Germans have retreated? If so a great pity. I thought that Frau Merkel was to make a strong pitch for her U-boats during her visit.I am quite sceptical of the French winning the contest.Three factors.Scorpene leaks, promise to Oz to never give India equivalent sub-tech and the high cost of their subs.A further factor is that the Russians will never allow any of their advanced sub-launched missiles like Kalibir and B' Mos to be fitted onto any competition. The SoKo boats have significant German components with the basic design heavily borrowing from follow-on U-&boats

We should as was planned two decades ago have two lines of conventional subs , one western and one Ru. U-boats could replace the Scorpenes, perhaps a few more to end the series with 8 of 9 and a new U-boat lind to replace our 4 U-209/1500s. The Ru line a custom- designed boat to meet our unique needs based upon either the Amur which is now being built in series for the RuN or future Kalina class. The DRDO AIP system should mature within a couple of years and feature on both boats.


For 100th time Amur is not being built it is lada that is being built, Amur is export derivative based on original lada which had far too many issues and current abomination that is being built has some fixes but still stuck in limbo. As a result there is no Amur and Russia has no money to develop Kalina nor are they gonna find anyone dumb enough to fund it.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kashi » 01 Nov 2019 11:48

John wrote:Russia has no money to develop Kalina nor are they gonna find anyone dumb enough to fund it.


Philip sa'b would like that very much.

Pratyush
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 01 Nov 2019 13:16

The Germans had showcased the U 416 a few years ago. It had 12 cell vls and AIP.

Displacement was in the region of 4800 tons.

That design is quite relevant for the IN.

Don't believe that the they would exit the program without a fight.

Sweeds could as they didn't have the design. But the Germans have the design.

kit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 01 Nov 2019 17:49

nachiket wrote:
Vips wrote:It is not the technology or design that is making the vendors nervous. It is only 49% ownership in the joint venture with 100% liability for any slippages that is the root cause.I think we need to negotiate with the French for 3 additional scorpenes (with installation of our indigenous AIP) as a stop gap measure to account for the additional chai biskoot sessions that will follow.

No company worth its salt would agree to something like that without massively overcharging for whatever they promise to deliver. In this case the only ones who would not have a problem signing on the dotted line would be the Russians since contractual obligations don't mean anything to them anyway as we saw during the Gorshkov saga.


Not so., how did South Korea get the tech to build their Submarines AND sell them in the first place? It came from HDW. Now if the Koreans can do that why is that India cant? . The MOD is not stupid nor the IN. The Indian defence contracts are not an easy pick any more.

ritesh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby ritesh » 01 Nov 2019 20:01

Vips wrote:It is not the technology or design that is making the vendors nervous. It is only 49% ownership in the joint venture with 100% liability for any slippages that is the root cause.I think we need to negotiate with the French for 3 additional scorpenes (with installation of our indigenous AIP) as a stop gap measure to account for the additional chai biskoot sessions that will follow.

Reads same as in during rafale negotiations between Dassault and HAL.

nachiket
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 01 Nov 2019 22:15

kit wrote:Not so., how did South Korea get the tech to build their Submarines AND sell them in the first place? It came from HDW. Now if the Koreans can do that why is that India cant? . The MOD is not stupid nor the IN. The Indian defence contracts are not an easy pick any more.

We did not do anything with the technology. The Koreans did. Nothing to do with contractual obligations.

Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 05 Nov 2019 18:02

Because of the hullabaloo over the alleged HDW scandal the VP Singh used against Rajiv G, found years later to have no proof, we stopped production of HDW subs and asininely instead of finding an alternative sub to build, dumped the entire manufacturing eqpt. acquired at great cost and sold it for scrap.Sometimes babudom is a greater enemy than our traditional ones.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby John » 05 Nov 2019 18:46

I doubt we would have done much with U-209 even without the scandal maybe exercised the option and ordered more but still let the line rust and sold off for scrap. There was no will for domestic built submarine class from all parties involved everyone wanted to import a new class and get in on huge $$ involved.

Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2019 00:08

We would've graduated much earliet to upgraded U- boats with AIP.We were leaders in Asia then in sub- building but let even the Pakis overtake us with the Agosta-90Bs woth MESMA AIPsystems.Two+ decades on, we still haven't a single AIP sub while several in Asia do! Of course we've built our fledgling SSBNs, a great achievement but now need to rapidly acquire and build AIP ones too.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Nov 2019 08:44

Our AIP equipped SSP fleet will make even more sense K-4s. With P8s, Mh60R other Naval Aviation assets , SSP and 1 Aircraft carrier CBG we should sanitise the Northern bay of Bengal using A&N islands and East coast bases. While other SSBN can patrol other waters 2 SSBNs in Northern Bay of Bengal with K4 will always keep all.major Chinese cities in range.

Given that bases are close by , the silent SSP along with 1 or 2 SSN of ours along with Aviation and surface assets can keep the sea safe from any hostile SSN from trying to sneak in. In such a situation a silent SSP could prove deadly to more noisy SSN.

So our SSP/ SSK fleet will be used for 3 purposes

1) To defend vital ports/ bases from any hostile submarine trying to sneak in
2) To be offensive role in the Northern Arabian sea
3) To guard the Northern Bay of Bengal.

USA/UK/France has the luxury of having hostile nations very far away so do not need any SSK/SSP whereas nations in the Baltic always keep SSK/SSPs


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