Project 75I - It Begins

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Rakesh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

The liability clause reminds me of Dassault having the same complaint about HAL.

Cancel this project and just build a follow on batch of six more Scorpenes. Be done with this tamasha.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Guess the process have been too optimistic regarding TOT., only way to develop tech is to do it yourself!! ., maybe the Koreans are more accommodating and interested in collaborative efforts
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by viveks »

Interesting the Germans pulled out. Looks like their tech is for limited audiences.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

I wonder if the MoD came up with these stringent rules, just to make the Russians win :lol:

Who wants BrahMos VLS cell on Project 75I? Indian Navy.

Who is best suited - at least on paper - to mate said VLS cell onto Project 75I? Russia.

Which country will not be held liable for any screwups in manufacturing by MDL or L&T? Russia.

The Russian (Natasha) lobby is alive and well!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by sum »

The long awaited Project 75 (I) gets ground after one of the major bidders has withdrawn from the race. The Ministry of Defence in July had issued a Request for Proposal (RfP) for the construction of six conventional diesel-electric submarines (SSK) under the Make in India initiative and in collaboration with an established foreign submarine builder.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Cannot believe we plow forward with this circus even after 10-15 years of not an inch moving forward.

I have zero doubt that even in 2030 BRF Project-75I dhaaga, the same situation of potential RFP/RFQ etc will be discussed about
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by viveks »

Didn't the Germans have problems supplying the gear boxes for the INS Vikrant?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:Who wants BrahMos VLS cell on Project 75I? Indian Navy.
Was there ever a req put for VLS Brahmos or VLS cells, I don’t recall ever seeing it?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Barath »

Vips wrote:According to a Defence channel: The P75I is in for major delay if Indian govt stands by its condition that the competing submarine should be equipped with a 'proven and already working AIP'.
Wonder why the French were supposedly ruled out. Sure they don't have a proven fuel cell, but they do have a proven AIP.

MESMA is used in Pakistan's Agosta , and was designed for Scorpenes and offered to India (India preferred to wait for DRDO AIP). Huma Siddiqui says that the requirement is for an fuel cell AIP, but other sources don't necessarily.
John wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Who wants BrahMos VLS cell on Project 75I? Indian Navy.
Was there ever a req put for VLS Brahmos or VLS cells, I don’t recall ever seeing it?
The requirement was said to be for VLS

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... rines.html

Its just that since India doesn't have a lot of missiles (especially cruise missiles) that can be fired underwater, most folks assumed that it would fire the Brahmos. Of course, there were also murmurs towards a "universal" VLS , both on forums in general, and for Project 18, supposedly. (no specifics for 75i)
Last edited by Barath on 20 Aug 2021 18:27, edited 2 times in total.
Vips
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

Rakesh wrote:I wonder if the MoD came up with these stringent rules, just to make the Russians win :lol:

Who wants BrahMos VLS cell on Project 75I? Indian Navy.

Who is best suited - at least on paper - to mate said VLS cell onto Project 75I? Russia.

Which country will not be held liable for any screwups in manufacturing by MDL or L&T? Russia.

The Russian (Natasha) lobby is alive and well!
Yes.

Even if the French are awarded the contract for another Six Scorpenes with DRDO AIP, will they really be ready to offer TOT? I doubt that.

On the other hand Russians have already proposed TOT and license for as many number of Submarines that India wants if they are offered the contract under a exclusive G2G deal. Russians will be comfortable doing business only with Mazgaon Docks and that will rule out L&T getting any business defeating the strategic partner model of GOI.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

What has TOT do we actually need ?

Looking at the how long the Ka226T deal or the AK203 deal has taken place, we'll probably spend another 5 years in negotiations.

I just looked at the first page of this thread. This was in 2014 and we still haven't finalized the vendor - 7 years later. In pursuit of the unobtainium, we're jeopardizing our capabilities. Nobody has a VLS on a diesel sub, except some fancy Russian paperware. We don't have a successful strategic partner concept (and the loser will go to court and screw the deal).

We should have started our own design.

Just get 6 more Scorpenes and be done with it.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Barath wrote:The requirement was said to be for VLS

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... rines.html

Its just that since India doesn't have a lot of missiles (especially cruise missiles) that can be fired underwater, most folks assumed that it would fire the Brahmos. Of course, there were also murmurs towards a "universal" VLS , both on forums in general, and for Project 18, supposedly. (no specifics for 75i)
But that’s just opinion piece on P-75 no where does requirement ever state that in fact sub launched VLS Brahmos is no longer even being promoted by Brahmos Corp (pushing for tube launched Brahmos-m instead)
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by arvin »

I dont beleive the reasons HDW has given for withdrawl.
More to do with their reluctance to invest in better battery tech, which Navantia and Korea might offer.
I wrote before, couple of pages back, even if one vendor offers Li-ion battery tech others have to follow suit to match the endurance.
Vivek K
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vivek K »

Build your own - steal from the scorpene design and incorporate tech gained in Arihant. Don't lust for unobtainium - India needs to become stronger NOW.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

Daewoo has now clarified that their offer for a 3000 T submarine Project 75I tender incorporated the AIP technology but was to come without the VLS feature.

So Super (stretched) Kalavari is the way to go!

When the chips are down at least French have the Veto Power to support us and be of strategic value.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

You cannot fit 8 UVLS OR even 4 for that matter on any SSK without serious performance degradation. Even much larger LA class SSN carry only 12 TLAM in VLS which about the same as 4 Brahmos (factoring in the canister).

There is good reason why Russians didn't try that even with their larger Lada class SSKs (domestic Amur) even though they love to fit VLS on any dinky boats.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

John wrote:You cannot fit 8 UVLS OR even 4 for that matter on any SSK without serious performance degradation. Even much larger LA class SSN carry only 12 TLAM in VLS which about the same as 4 Brahmos (factoring in the canister).

There is good reason why Russians didn't try that even with their larger Lada class SSKs (domestic Amur) even though they love to fit VLS on any dinky boats.
The issue with the addition of VLS is added volume which in turn equals weight and the required additional volume of air that needs to be purified by the scrubbing system.

A sufficiently powerful AIP can handle the situation without any major problems. Provided the navy is prepared to pay the cost in terms of extra materials and scrubbing capacity.

But at the size of the boat being looked at while adding VLS. It makes sense to build a nuke boat. It will be within 20% cost of a conventional boat.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ritesh »

John wrote:You cannot fit 8 UVLS OR even 4 for that matter on any SSK without serious performance degradation. Even much larger LA class SSN carry only 12 TLAM in VLS which about the same as 4 Brahmos (factoring in the canister).

There is good reason why Russians didn't try that even with their larger Lada class SSKs (domestic Amur) even though they love to fit VLS on any dinky boats.
Question to gurus, can the air launch version navalised and used in ships & subs?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

You can launch missiles from torpedo tubes. Our Kilos are equipped with sub launched Club missiles. Though Brahmos will require 650mm tubes, not the normal 533mm ones. There have been pontoon launched tests of Brahmos, but I don't know if they were in VLS mode or TT mode.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

srin wrote:You can launch missiles from torpedo tubes. Our Kilos are equipped with sub launched Club missiles. Though Brahmos will require 650mm tubes, not the normal 533mm ones. There have been pontoon launched tests of Brahmos, but I don't know if they were in VLS mode or TT mode.
They are VLS launch and Brahmos Corp stopped development of sub launch vls version instead pushing Brahmos-m via torpedo tubes but willing restart development if navy wants it.

Also I don't believe Brahmos can fit in 650mm tube I think its diameter is tad bigger than that.
ritesh wrote:Question to gurus, can the air launch version navalised and used in ships & subs?
Air launched version is regular Brahmos with smaller booster and likely won't be able to reach enough speed to activate the ramjet from ship/sub or land launch. It has same diamater but shorter and weighs less.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Could this be a reason as to why Germany (TKMS) backed out of Project 75I?

Russia to benefit from India's Project 75I transfer exercise
http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2021/08/ ... oject.html
21 August 2021
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by mody »

The Koreans won't be offering 'their' VLS tubes and solution as part of the tender but would be open to incorporating DRDO developed VLS tubes, if they can be accommodated and India pays for all the design change required.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/BlackIAdder/status/ ... 66145?s=20 ---> So it's starting to feel that P75I tender might be cancelled...as I said before and I want to say again, just build more Scorpenes. Having more Scorpenes are any day better, than just having a plan for more advanced submarines. We can always figure out AIP and VLS integration later.

https://twitter.com/BlackIAdder/status/ ... 30474?s=20 ---> We already have the facilities ready and it's silly to modify existing facilities or build new ones (if L&T wins the tender) for just another six P-75I.

https://twitter.com/AdvaityaC/status/14 ... 04772?s=20 ---> The best possible way out of this drama of P-75I could possibly be by giving orders for three additional Scorpenes in short term (1-2 yrs) & then sign an Inter-Governmental agreement for six Super Scorpenes which would be larger in size in mid term (4-5 yrs). The VLS would come integrated.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

If the damn ships are not going to be fitted with VLS, then the rationale for having a separate design no longer exists.

In that case build additional Scorpene Class subs. Update the sonar and combat management system, if those systems are no longer adequate. Considering that we are still building these subs, I don't think that they are so out of date. That 3 additional subs cannot be built as is.

If the next class of nuke subs are going to be substantially different from the Arihant Class boats. Then it makes sense to design a conventional derivative with AIP along side for a new class of conventional submarine. While the continued production of Scorpene Class provides sufficient buffer to retain and build the fleet strength.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Barath »

Vips wrote: So Super (stretched) Kalavari is the way to go!

.
Why this Kalavari, Kolaveri di.

Soup song, Flop song ?

<Looks at title of thread>
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Yagnasri »

IIRC there is no SSK with Vertical Lunch Tubes anywhere in the world. Still we want it. There are very few AIPs deployed as on two day. We want that. That is ok. We want bigger ones. We want Penalty clauses on suppliers than our Indian Yards. If our Yard **** up then supplier has to pay up. Which supplier will agree for it. Even with Rafael also we had similar attempt with HAL and Rafael had a problem with that.

We need to look at ourselves very hard at least now.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Barath wrote:
Vips wrote: So Super (stretched) Kalavari is the way to go!

.
Why this Kalavari, Kolaveri di.

Soup song, Flop song ?

<Looks at title of thread>
:rotfl:
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Barath »

Yagnasri wrote:IIRC there is no SSK with Vertical Lunch Tubes anywhere in the world. Still we want it. There are very few AIPs deployed as on two day. We want that. That is ok. We want bigger ones. We want Penalty clauses on suppliers than our Indian Yards. If our Yard **** up then supplier has to pay up. Which supplier will agree for it. Even with Rafael also we had similar attempt with HAL and Rafael had a problem with that.

We need to look at ourselves very hard at least now.
Dosan Ahn Changho - has VLS and is an SSK with AIP . Fuel cells now, Lithium in later subs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Dosan_Ahn_Changho

China has a diesel electric sub with VLS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing-class_submarine

Unfortunately, there's no free lunch, let alone free vertical lunch tubes.

BTW, VLS isn't particularly new to subs, since nuclear subs have had them all the time, and they aren't that much different a beast. AIP is also pretty common. There are multiple classes of SSK subs with AIP in the world. Pakistan, China, Korea, Japan, Indonesia, and other countries have them.

Whether the extra capability is worth the extra cost, is a question that has rarely been asked or addressed or justified publicly by Indian navy or procurement ministries. So there is little argument on trade-off analysis publicly available, or even that it has been done. Of course, with AIP, you have to consider the plans and dependencies of actually doing it, and the strategic choice of technology

Asking the OEM to be responsible for quality of another company's local yard/build, though ...
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Naval Group's Propulsion Systems: AIP for Submarines

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Time to rejuvenate this thread. The AUKUS throws up interesting options for India. France could be more generous with tech sharing, even the Americans..of particular interest would the LM combat system , optronic non hull penetrating sensor suites and pumpjet propulsion
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Agreed, but please keep this thread only related to the P-75 SSK.

Anything nuclear powered related, only in this thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7110&start=1640
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

If only it was possible for the French to give Strategic relations with India more importance then its greed to make money, they would give the TOT for Barracuda SSN and its non nuclear derivative to India.

France has always fancied itself as an independent power charting its own strategic path away from too much American influence. Here is its golden chance - Lead a European group, and try to align with India as the third front in the world against the US and China group.

India should make it a no-brainer for France with another order for Rafales and sweeten the deal with order for additional Scorpenes and also Mistral LPD's to convince France and get TOT for jet engines from Safran.(France has always lost out in US led technology denial regimes. Competing business in most third world countries and china goes to Russia and cash rich markets are always captured by US with France only getting the left-overs)

News article from Toilet- Daunting questions before France.

Now France faces daunting questions on how to advance its strategic priorities in Europe and the Indo-Pacific.

"The decision could prompt a rethink in Paris about strategic partnerships with the anglosphere," said Herve Lemahieu, research director at Australia's Lowy Institute.

Since 2018, Macron has been pursuing diplomatic, military and trade ties across the Indo-Pacific, helped by France's territories of New Caledonia and French Polynesia.

It has deepened defence relations with Japan and India, with New Delhi recently buying 36 Rafale fighter jets from France.

What do experts say?
Referring to a French naval defeat in 1805 followed by a long period of British naval supremacy, Bruno Tertrais, deputy director of a Paris-based think tank termed it “a Trafalgar moment”.

"This is a clap of thunder and for many in Paris a Trafalgar moment," Tertrais, deputy director of the Foundation of Strategic Research, said on Twitter.

He warned it would "complicate the transatlantic cooperation in and about the region” and that “Beijing will benefit".

Some analysts also warned France's furious reaction could backfire. "Betrayal is the wrong language and hurts France's position in Australia; it can poison the well," said UK-based defence analyst Francis Tusa, adding France would now be more reliant on selling Rafales to secure its place in the global arms market.

Anne Cizel, a specialist in American foreign policy at the Sorbonne University in Paris, termed the row a "minor diplomatic crisis". "The United States is sending a curious message, in that it wants European allies present in the Indo-Pacific, and at the same time it is now the main rival for French submarines sales," she said.

Thomas Gomart, director of the French Institute of International Relations, added it confirms that the United States expects its allies to remain docile, and is no longer interested in consultation.

Terming it “a very big blow”, Antoine Bondaz at France's Foundation for Strategic Research said it shouldn't stop Macron from imploring European Union allies to realise the importance of ensuring free access to the Indo-Pacific and its key global shipping lanes.

Macron has repeatedly said that Europe needs to develop its own defence capabilities to be less reliant on the US. But such a vision will need the strong support of Germany, which faces political uncertainty as Chancellor Angela Merkel exits power in this month's elections.

"Paris should look for other partnerships, with Indonesia or South Korea for example," said Bondaz.

"Australia, however, remains a key partner in the South Pacific, and you can't change geography."
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Personally I am totally against a new design for this submarine.

Build the scorpion with domestic technology and scale it up.

If VLS is required, build a varient of Arihant without the nuke compartment.

All this capacity is within India. We don't have to spend so much money overseas for capacity that's available to Indian yards and companies.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Cyrano »

From: Pourquoi l’Australie a rompu le méga contrat de sous-marins avec la France

Google translated:
Drafted in 2016, signed three years later, the contract between the Australian State and Naval Group, the industrial group owned 62% by the French State and 35% by Thalès, planned to equip Canberra with twelve submarines new generation ocean-going vehicles with diesel-electric engines. Estimated initially at 32 billion euros, the contract had been reassessed to 56 billion, a surge in prices much criticized in Australia and probably not unrelated to the termination of the contract announced by Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison.

This industrial agreement, the culmination of the Franco-Australian strategic partnership, provided for a major transfer of technology and the on-site manufacture of all the submarines with 1,800 jobs at stake, or 60% of the contract value for the Australia. For Naval Group, headquartered in Cherbourg (Manche), this gave hundreds of employees years of work in perspective. The rupture will lead to compensation - the Australian press speaks of 250 million euros - but the shock is severe for the French group, whose 30% of turnover is achieved in 18 foreign countries.

Australia's turnaround "is not a change of mind but of need", argues Scott Morrison, who invokes "national security" to justify the choice of nuclear propulsion, an option that was deliberately ruled out in the contract with France to respect the NPT (nuclear non-proliferation treaty). The Australian turnaround can be explained first by the delay in the execution of the contract with Naval Group, soaring prices and internal controversies. Then by the aggravation of disputes with China, which leads Australia to want to raise its defense posture.

The third and perhaps determining factor is American pressure. The United States, driven out of Kabul on August 31, wants to tighten all its alliances against Beijing. The announcement of the "AUKUS" security pact with Australia and the United Kingdom, of which France is the loser, is timely in an attempt to reassure Washington's determination to defend its partners and its interests in the Indo-Pacific. Beijing was right, denouncing the "irresponsible" sale of submersibles, and "a cold war mentality." By choosing American submarines, nuclear moreover, and which will take a long time to build, Australia is sacrificing its immediate economic interests to line up under the American banner against China. A strategy that is not without risk.

"In good French, it is called a blow in the back", reacted the Minister of Foreign Affairs Jean-Yves Le Drian who speaks of "betrayal of confidence". "This is very bad news for respecting the word given and a serious decision in international politics", added Florence Parly, her Defense colleague. Scott Morrison tries to soften the shock inflicted on the French partner: speaking of "a difficult and disappointing decision for France", the Australian Prime Minister affirms that this one remains "a very important partner". Not sure that this consoles Paris.

French anger is aimed especially at Washington: "This unilateral, brutal, unpredictable decision resembles what Mr. Trump was doing", coldly blurted out Jean-Yves Le Drian: "This is not done between allies, it is quite unbearable". Florence Parly drives the point home: "We are lucid about the way in which the United States regards its allies". In the short term, France sees its Indo-Pacific strategy dented, but reaffirms being "a reliable partner" in a region where it has two million nationals and 7,000 soldiers. For the French ministers, the Australian decision "only reinforces the need to raise the issue of European strategic autonomy loud and clear, including in the Indo-Pacific".
India can step in an strike a deal to ease France's pain and at the same time, rework the specifics to meet Indian Navy's needs. French presidential elections are due in April 2021, Macron is under pressure from lefty parties, his handling of Covid, the pension reforms he attempted earlier, and lately from Green lobbies which are becoming a potent force these days. The French will be much more amenable to find commercial middle ground now than in the past.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Barath »

Not at the reported $90 billion AUD for 12 diesel subs without AIP/VLS/larger dia torp tubes and 50% ToT reportedly. That's 5.5 billion USD each. At those prices and for those deals, India is better off not touching the French deal with a proverbial 20 foot pole.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

^ Most Aussie deals tend be bit inflated for example they are spending over 3 billion each for there Hunter class FFG. Part of problem is everything is imported and local construction is highly expensive.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by rajsunder »

Barath wrote:Not at the reported $90 billion AUD for 12 diesel subs without AIP/VLS/larger dia torp tubes and 50% ToT reportedly. That's 5.5 billion USD each. At those prices and for those deals, India is better off not touching the French deal with a proverbial 20 foot pole.
I think it should have been $7.5 Billion Each.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

It would be interesting to see whether these subs will be locally built in Aus., it gonna way beyond the 90 billion for french subs., you need to build the whole infrastructure to build and maintain them !!

I think this deal is more political than economic considerations
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by chetak »

kit wrote:It would be interesting to see whether these subs will be locally built in Aus., it gonna way beyond the 90 billion for french subs., you need to build the whole infrastructure to build and maintain them !!

I think this deal is more political than economic considerations

It's a moot point now.


lots of very expensive french wines would have been pissed away (pun intended) in the longish lead up to this contracts' expected conclusion.

the poor frogs: more hors d'oeuvres than the hors de combat that the frogs expected as the conclusion of this aussie contract.

or was it an ambush of the catholics by the protestants........
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Barath »

rajsunder wrote:
Barath wrote:Not at the reported $90 billion AUD for 12 diesel subs without AIP/VLS/larger dia torp tubes and 50% ToT reportedly. That's 5.5 billion USD each. At those prices and for those deals, India is better off not touching the French deal with a proverbial 20 foot pole.
I think it should have been $7.5 Billion Each.
7.5 billion AUD is 5.5 billion USD
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 95138?s=20 ---> French Navy Chief holds talks with India's Chief of Naval Staff in US.
^ Hope we order couple more Kalvari to keep line busy till P-75 mess is sorted out.
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