Project 75I - It Begins

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Rakesh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

When will reality hit our flag officers at Naval HQ?

https://twitter.com/Defencematrix1/stat ... 593MJ19aMg ---> "Indian Navy would like to have the latest, state of the art submarine with powerful weapons, an Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system and high stealth. No one in the world has such a submarine ready," said, Andrey Baranov Director General, Rubin Design Bureau, Army 2022 exhibition, Moscow.

Russia On The Indian Navy’s Submarine Plans: “Drastic Adjustments” Are Required For The P75i Tender
https://defenceaviationpost.com/russia- ... 5i-tender/
15 Aug 2022
Pratyush
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

If no one in the world has such submarine.

Then bloody hell, design a submarine that meets the criteria and quote a price for it. Don't say that no body has such submarine.

Perhaps the Indian Navy has budgeted so much for these submarine's. So that technology is developed and India owns the IP for them.

A bad workman blaming his tools.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by pravula »

Pratyush wrote:If no one in the world has such submarine.

Then bloody hell, design a submarine that meets the criteria and quote a price for it. Don't say that no body has such submarine.

Perhaps the Indian Navy has budgeted so much for these submarine's. So that technology is developed and India owns the IP for them.

A bad workman blaming his tools.
His point was the first of this new class will have teething issues and the request is designed to penalize anyone willing to develop one.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... t/2633610/
P-75I submarine project future uncertain after Russia pulls out
Russia concerned about the implementation aspect of the P-75I submarine project. The Indian Navy has also approached the Ministry of Defence to relax some of the conditions.
Huma Siddiqui, August 17, 2022

Stating the terms and conditions stated in the Request For Proposal (RFP) for the construction of six advanced submarines under Project-75I as unrealistic, Russia too has withdrawn from the race.
Reports from Moscow quoting Andrey Baranov, Deputy Director General, Rubin Design Bureau, who was speaking at the Army 2022 expo, has said that the requirements mentioned in the RFP has demanded strict timeline and has put a lot of responsibility on the designer of the submarine. He also mentioned that since the submarine will be built in India the designer will have no control over its construction. He also mentioned that the Naval Group of France has withdrawn from the programme.
According to reports, Baranov has said that the project is good as far as design is concerned however with respect to implementation, it is not good.
Response time to the RFP extended
The response time to the RFP has been extended once again. Earlier it was until June 30 and now the deadline is December 31, 2022. The Indian Navy has also approached the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to relax certain specifications. The reason being, “due to certain specifications, some of the submarine manufacturers have become non-compliant,” explained a senior naval officer speaking on condition of anonymity.
Concerns cited by Russia
Requirements specified by the Indian Navy which wants Transfer of Technology; stealth technology; state-of-the-art submarines to be equipped with powerful missiles. And so far there is no prototype available of such a submarine in the world.
Another point highlighted is the construction to be done in India, and high penalties to be paid by the OEM in case the timelines are not met.
As has been reported by the Financial Express Online earlier, Mazgaon Docks (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) were shortlisted by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) as the Indian partners for the P-75I deal in 2020.
And in 2021, the Ministry of Defence issued RFP in July 2021 to MDL and L&T. They had 12 weeks time to respond and they are free to tie up with any of the five OEMs that were shortlisted earlier.
.....
Gautam
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Prem Kumar »

This is turning out to be like the MRFA tamasha.

Its a good opportunity for the MoD/PMO to scrap this RFP, order more Scorpenes and directly go to IDDM P76. While at it, accelerate the SSN building programme, so that we have enough subs in the water.

Never waste a crisis!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Prem Kumar wrote:This is turning out to be like the MRFA tamasha.

Its a good opportunity for the MoD/PMO to scrap this RFP, order more Scorpenes and directly go to IDDM P76. Never waste a crisis!
That's the problem, the scorpenes are more compromised than we thought, not sure the IN wants more of that line. Only way out seems to be a different one and technically superior to the scorpenes with a larger weapon capacity and better sensors.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Political messages need to read between the lines. When NaMo says we need indigenous solutions "that no one else has and don't know about" to give an advantage to the Indian forces, it means we do compromise a bit on buying ready made solutions from abroad. The P75 "i" the I is important.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

If 'I' is the key factor then why so much obfuscation in the RFP.
A question then why cant PMO/MOD/Navy Chief sit together and decide what is that the Navy wants ??diesel-electric attack subs/AIP/possible to launch SLBM(using VLS)
Only SoKo subs meets that criteria
It took a while for SoKo systems to mature to that stage.
If that's what navy wants then the should go for single vendor and buy 4 with an option of 2-4 more.
in the mean time DRDO/Kalvari/AIP system to be given time to mature with Navy on board for sequential improvements of the product and not the Arjun/MRCA tamasha's
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

RSatchi, what the Navy wants no OEM can provide. That is what Russia has stated (publicly) and what the other OEMs have conveyed (privately). So the PMO/MoD cannot make any unilateral decision, until the Navy scales back her requirements.

When the Gerald R Ford Class came out, a retired US Navy admiral stated (commenting on her long delays) that they should have not introduced a number of new technologies onto the vessel at one go. They should have focused on one or two technologies and then moved on from there. It is a similar situation with the Project 75I program. What makes the issue even worse is the Navy's insistence that the OEM will be held responsible for any delays that occur in the construction of the vessel, at an Indian Shipyard. Which OEM will agree to this thoughtlessness?

That is like me buying a plot of land, hiring an architect and builder to design a net-zero home. But then I stipulate in the contract, that my friends & family will build the home, but will penalize the builder when things go awry. Which builder will agree to this foolishness?

If the contest continues to play out with just South Korea and Spain left, one of them will obviously win. The irony is the charges that the Navy will fling at the OEM, will hurt only the Navy. The OEM winner will get a % of the contract upfront and will continue to be paid till the first delay happens. When that delay occurs (and it will), the Navy will have no boat to put out to sea and the OEM will have pocketed a good chunk of change. What can the MoD do that stage, other than huff & puff?

The services don't live in reality when they write these asinine RFIs. It is the same behaviour that exists with local maal. The only difference being that with local maal, they can throw a tantrum and get away with it. With a foreign OEM, good luck! Remember the $250 million India spent on the PAK-FA program? We have no plane and we never got the money back either. I don't know if this metric still holds true, but a new Tejas line used to cost around $250 million. The sheer stupidity.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

^^Sir if this is that rampant and well entrenched in the services, then the Executive needs to crack the whip.
This wanton behaviour needs to be stopped if the local MIC needs to nurtured and for it to flourish
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Who is going to crack the whip Sir? Rajnath Singh is a great politician. You have to be, to survive in the mental maze of Indian politics. But Rajnath Singh is not a domain expert on submarines or anything military. NaMo is equally a great politician and administrator. But the same is true when it comes to military platforms. You cannot blame them, as that is not their domain expertise.

The services therefore will continue to play the game of I-only-want-the-best, because no one is there to hold them by the scruff of their neck and yell wake up! This is why Project 75I and 114 MRFA continue to live on.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

There is one option - either South Korea or Spain should pull out. Then it will become a one vendor situation, which the MoD cannot sanction as per set rules. That will force the Navy to restart the entire contest, albeit with diluted requirements (no working AIP and penalizing the OEM for delays in Indian SYs).

Roll the dice and toss it right back at the Navy. That is the only way they will learn and they need to learn the hard way.

This thread started in Oct 2014 and the current govt started in May 2014. Eight years later and they are still at square one.

When BRF started in 1997, the Indian Army was in the quagmire of acquiring artillery guns from abroad. Decades later, lo and behold, someone found the blueprints of the Bofors FH-77B howitzer and that gave birth to Dhanush. Also see how successful our artillery program (the technical aspect) is today. What do you think are the odds that the blueprints of the 1980s HDW 209 boat is lying somewhere in the halls of Navy HQ or MoD or wherever they store such info. That would be ironic if true.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

Rakeshji me personally think that the time has come for ex-servicemen above the rank of Major-General (equivalent in other services) and willing to slug it out in political arena to be co-opted into government by the ruling party to do the cracking of the whip (along with the CDS). Why can't Gen VKS be given MoD?
Last edited by SRajesh on 18 Aug 2022 18:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

Rakesh wrote:What do you think are the odds that the blueprints of the 1980s HDW 209 boat is lying somewhere in the halls of Navy HQ or MoD or wherever they store such info. That would be ironic if true.
Aye that would be ironic indeed
But where's our Hercules to the clean the proverbial 'Augean Stables' :((
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rsatchi wrote:
Rakesh wrote:What do you think are the odds that the blueprints of the 1980s HDW 209 boat is lying somewhere in the halls of Navy HQ or MoD or wherever they store such info. That would be ironic if true.
Aye that would be ironic indeed
But where's our Hercules to the clean the proverbial 'Augean Stables' :((
I would say MD should have been able to do it , if there was remaining expertise and tooling still workable in India. But again problem being much of the " expertise " has either left the shores literally and no workable equipment worth the effort.

SK on the other hand kept building on their initial order which was similar to Indias and they built and improvised on that design. They did not stand still for 10 years and then wake up to find blue prints !!. They could now probably teach a thing or two to the original designers :mrgreen:

By the way the original HDW (indian) specs were also leaked , this time it was SA.
http://www.millenniumpost.in/german-hdw ... how-159536


Every western power had made it sure the submarine tech they sell is somehow compromised.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

one question to ask is why can't Navy build upon the Scorpene design instead of HDW? The answer is precisely why the 75 (i) is still around and a 76 has come up. Some secrets are better off the public domain i suppose. No one wants to shout from the rooftops on such very sensitive matters.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/AhmAdTipu7/status/1 ... tJKW3a-Z5A ---> KS-III Sub, The most probable candidate for Indian Navy six next generation Project 75I submarines.

ROKS Dosan Ahn Changho Deploys For The First Time
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... irst-time/
18 Aug 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

kit wrote:one question to ask is why can't Navy build upon the Scorpene design instead of HDW? The answer is precisely why the 75 (i) is still around and a 76 has come up. Some secrets are better off the public domain i suppose. No one wants to shout from the rooftops on such very sensitive matters.

But when is the P76 getting built? The P75 I is consuming all the oxygen in the room.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by vera_k »

The confounding thing about the project is that it looks like it was initially a way to save time and money. Because given enough resources, it could have been designed from the ground up and built locally in any case.

Wonder if it isn't set up as a fishing expedition to validate that nothing like this is available on reasonable terms in the market. Although, certainly is a round about way to go doing that.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:But when is the P76 getting built? The P75 I is consuming all the oxygen in the room.
In 1999, the then ABV Govt approved the 30-Year Submarine Plan which envisaged 12 imported submarines (six Project 75 and six Project 75I). The next batch of submarines (Project 76) was to take the best of both designs and create a new hybrid platform. That time frame will end in 2029 and the Navy is no where close to completion on the plan.

Unless Project 75I gets rolling, only then can Project 76 come to fruition.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Rsatchi wrote:Rakeshji me personally think that the time has come for ex-servicemen above the rank of Major-General (equivalent in other services) and willing to slug it out in political arena to be co-opted into government by the ruling party to do the cracking of the whip (along with the CDS). Why can't Gen VKS be given MoD?
No ji for me please.

Not many have the gumption of serving in politics after decades in uniform. By the time one achieves flag rank, more than three decades have passed. After that length of time ordering your subordinates around and getting your way every time, politics will come as a rude shock to them.

While Gen VK Singh might appear to be a perfect candidate for the job of Raksha Mantri, there are other factors at play. We are not privy to the inner workings of the BJP, but for whatever reason(s) he has not been given the post. Perhaps we might see him post the 2024 elections.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

P-75I submarine project future uncertain after Russia pulls out
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... t/2633610/
17 Aug 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Below is a Rahul Bedi article. Forewarned :)

But some valuable quotes from retired Admirals and the late Manohar Parrikar...

After reading the below, it is best the Indian Navy winds up her submarine arm. Led by officers who don't have an iota of a clue on what constitutes reality. Just wind down the submarine arm and stop embarrassing the nation. Those six Scorpenes can be re-assigned for tourists who have money to spend diving in deep waters. I am disappointed in these officers who write these RFIs. What planet are they on?

Navy’s ‘Unrealistic’ Expectations for Submarine Tender Will Have Operational Ramifications
https://thewire.in/security/indian-navy ... ifications
17 Aug 2022
“It is astonishing that after 14 years of deliberation by the IN and the MoD, the RfP for the SSKs incorporates unreal QRs and restrictive conditions for their manufacture,” said a retired three-star IN officer. It displays a collective lack of pragmatism and realism by both the Navy and the MoD, he added, declining to be identified.
Baranov’s blunt assessment of the IN’s proposed SSK’s ambitious design ironically echoed late defence minister Manohar Parrikar’s observations in 2015, when he jokingly, but accurately defined this perverse penchant as ‘QR Overreach*’ and one that plagued all three services. At a public function in New Delhi, with then Army Chief General Bikram Singh by his side, Parrikar had declared that at times the Indian military’s QR’s for equipment appeared to be straight out of “Marvel comic books”. The technologies it demanded were “absurd, unrealistic” and simply non-existent, Parrikar further elaborated much to General Singh’s chagrin.
*Qualitative Requirements Overreach
The P-75I RfP required the proposed SSKs to be fitted with fuel cell-based AIP systems, land attack capability, modern missiles, sensors and state-of-the-art countermeasures, all of which in keeping with Baranov’s assertions were seemingly somewhat ‘unrealistic’.

Additionally, the P-75I stands delayed by around a decade, due largely to the IN’s vacillation and the MoD’s convoluted procurement policies. In 2008, the IN had issued an RfI to five of the same submarine OEMs – barring Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries – but with the intent of importing two platforms and indigenously licence-building the remaining four.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by hnair »

Rakesh and Rsatchi, careful what we wish for! Cracking the whip etc might sound good. But remember we have a nice little pool of command people who called LCA as three-legged cheetah, wants a terribly expensive 65k CV with no defined national mission, imports Russian small arms up the wazoo, loves those phool-jari fireworks called T90s, drooling on brochures of MRFA etc.

What if those guys are the ones that make a lateral entry into politics? because it is some of these same folks who whisper “buy foreign!” to the venal and corrupt politician till now. ACMTyagi for example has no qualms signing off on that helicopter deal and would have easily made an entry into politics.

So answer is somewhere else, as the late Parrikar proved. The answer for these might be a Grand Corps approach like the French. A corps each for propulsion, chips, material sciences, marine hulls, aero frames, EW, RF, optics etc with a combination of technical(not bristle mush types alone) brass, babus with post-UPSC academic achievements and politicians who can cut through crap might work. “”MIGHT””
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Very good point hnair. I did not consider that viewpoint.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by bala »

The whole subject of requirements is an area that Services are not good at. After having dealt with so many projects and their requirements, I am of the firm belief that "good requirements" are the essence of good products. Lockheed Martin's skunk works strives to get 80% of them working during its first attempt and the remaining 20% they hone in after the first iteration. This philosophy gets LM to beat others consistently and come up with ground breaking products.

In the domain of requirements we have to recognize the following: known knowns, known unknows, unknown known, unknown unknown (made famous by Donald Rumsfeld, US Defence Secretary for W. Bush). The "known knowns" are par for the course. The "unknown known" come from interaction with others, brochures etc which the services are good at. The known unknows is getting into science fiction and is unobtanium. I would not like to venture into "unknown unknown".

After the set of requirements are fashioned, it is essential we prioritize them betting rupees behind each one of them to give a sense of phase 1, 2, 3 and so on. Then you work on each phase to realize. Within phase 1, the Elon Musk school would be throwing out things if they are not justified or just a nice to have feature. If you are LM you pick 80% of phase 1 and go about the task. Everyone, no matter their expertize, starts with a reduced set of requirements in phase 1. I don't understand how the services can come up with requirements that are impossible to deliver and not prioritized properly and even more scary is a MOD process which is so strict and asinine that the whole thing is one big joke of a process.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

All the discussion is well and good, but is it going to solve the problem of Indian Navy's gutted submarine arm. Especially when it's facing a threat from 2 seperate sources on it's own.

There comes a time when the numbers of tasks on the battlefield goes beyond the ability of defenders to fulfill. At that moment in time, nation's are defeated.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

Nairji
Thanks
Had forgottten that aspect of 'Tyag' etc.
But the question now is how to clear this impasse.
Wait for as Rakesh says single vendor situation and then reset the RFP or tweak it now before more desert??
And for option B to happen someone has to 'Bell the Cat'
But if its option A then its goodbye 75I dream of 2030!! cos mid 2023 to 2024 its election time and nothing will be done
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Which OEM is the article below pushing for?

Project-75I Submarine Acquisition: Should the Indian Navy Relax Air-Independent Propulsion Requirement?
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/ ... quisition/
30 Aug 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

This AIP requirement is something that I am unable to understand.

The kalvari is going to get a DRDO developed AIP as a part of MLU.

Why can't an AIP be developed for the P75I as well. If the technology works. Then it's straight forward to scale up and implement it on a defferent platform.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ks_sachin »

It will be more expensive to cut open a Kalvari than a P75i because will be a bigger submarine and the cost of the energy used to cut open will be more because of the Ukraine conflict..
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Foreign companies struggle to meet tech specifications of submarine plan
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 161275.cms
13 Sept 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

So already decided the winner? :)

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 3UgPTLMAYg ---> Report: Indian MoD has asked German submarine builder HDW to make two bids for P-75I – one bid to each of the two Indian SP shipyards: MDL and Larsen & Toubro, to avoid a single vendor situation.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:So already decided the winner? :)

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 3UgPTLMAYg ---> Report: Indian MoD has asked German submarine builder HDW to make two bids for P-75I – one bid to each of the two Indian SP shipyards: MDL and Larsen & Toubro, to avoid a single vendor situation.
very interesting !! ..i dare say things are coming to a conclusion
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

The German boat was always the favoured to win. They exited from the competition last year. So the requirements must have been diluted for them to re-enter the contest.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

But purely from a technical compliance matter. The South Koreans are better placed. As they have a sub with VLS in the water.

The DRDO AIP can be added to it during the construction phase or even the MLU.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:The German boat was always the favoured to win. They exited from the competition last year. So the requirements must have been diluted for them to re-enter the contest.
i guess its type 214 ., wonder if Thyssen has rectified its problems

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... 153016?amp

As an export-only design, the Type 214 lacks some of the capabilities of its parent hull, the Type 212. Chiefly among these lesser capabilities is the use of magnetic steel for the hull. The Type 212 parent uses non-magnetic steel, which significantly reduces its magnetic signature, and thus detection underwater.

Though the class is indeed capable, it is not without its detractors. Some foreign buyers have mentioned serious flaws in the design, which if true, call the Type 214’s capabilities into question.

The Hellenic Navy ordered four Type 214 hulls in the early 2000s and had a whole host of complaints. Perhaps the most serious of these was a structural imbalance in the 214’s hull which resulted in excessive rolling and pitching during rough sea conditions caused by a top-heavy design. The propeller design was allegedly loud and caused excessive cavitation. Other problems mentioned were overheating fuel cells that had an inadequate amount of output and a leaky hull.

The Republic of Korea Navy also operates nine Type 214 submarines domestically known as the Son Won-Il-class. The first of the class was manufactured in Germany, while the following eight were license-built domestically. The RoK Navy also had some similar complaints as the Hellenic Navy, principally they experienced issues with excessive cavitation caused by the propeller screw, and therefore excessive noise.

Despite the teething issues the class experienced, these problems—especially the unbalanced hull design—seem to have been addressed. Minor problems aside, the Type 214 is an attractive option for middle-weight navies that do not have the cash or operational requirements for larger designs. In fact, the 214’s smaller size would be an advantage for countries focused not on power projection, but coastal defense—which is probably why the Type 214 has enjoyed the level of success it’s had with countries like South Korea and Greece.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Kit, those issues have been resolved. This is old news.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Hiccups in Project 75(I)
https://www.spsmai.com/experts-speak/?i ... roject-75I
14 Sept 2022
It remains to be seen whether the foreign OEMs will be satisfied with whatever changes the MoD has made in the tender document and how many will respond by the December 2022 deadline.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ritesh »

It seems we are bent on reinventing the wheel over and over again. Can't we just order additional scorpene or kilos and be done with it? Aur kitna time chahiye decision lene mein?
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