Project 75I - It Begins

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Pratyush
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

The Indian Navy has extended the deadline for submission of bid for this program once again. With an instance that the submarine must have an AIP in service.

A single question comes to mind with this requirement of having the AIP in service.

Is the DRDO AIP not producing sufficient power for reliable operations?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ramana »

Will wrote:This is the next awaited big ticket project. Finally cleared and the RFP should be out soon. Lets track it here. Hope it doesn't turn into another saga though in way it already kinda is...

http://idrw.org/?p=45766#more-45766

Looks like Private Shipyards are going to get a shot at this. :)
Thread was started in 2014.
So far no progress. But we will have fratricide soon.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Revolutionising the Indian Navy’s submarine fleet: Shift to Li-Ion batteries
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... s/2925525/
24 Dec 2022
The Indian Navy was looking for a technology that had the potential to improve the performance of its conventional submarines – submarines that do not carry nuclear weapons.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Prem Kumar
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Prem Kumar »

1) Navy re-orders Kalvari
2) IAF re-orders Rafale as MRFA
3) Navy re-orders 2nd Vikrant class carrier

All this will happen

Use common sense after all else has failed
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Kersi »

Prem Kumar wrote:1) Navy re-orders Kalvari
2) IAF re-orders Rafale as MRFA
3) Navy re-orders 2nd Vikrant class carrier

All this will happen

Use common sense after all else has failed
INSHAH ALLAH

TATHASTU

AMEN
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by MeshaVishwas »

I see the logic of keeping the Kalvari class assembly line going, (seeing as how casual our approach has been towards at least keeping force levels steady considering we have not ordered a single new conventional pandoobi in 15+ years)
But I am unable to find anyone else reporting this and I was actually looking forward to the highly ambitious "Strategic Partnership" model taking off.We could have created pvt sector defence giants in very very niche areas and broken PSU monopoly.
Add to that the NHQ surely would have been miffed at how clumsy Naval Group or whatever it was called earlier, was, in handling sensitive information and I thought that no way in hell that the same company gets another lucrative contract.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Well said Prem Kumar! +108 to you :)

Some common sense has finally hit Naval HQ! After years of wrangling over P-75I, they are finally re-looking at ordering additional Scorpenes. Naval Group had an offer for 2 - 3 additional Scorpenes and Naval HQ should take up that offer. End the mindless obstinance and keep the line active. Lithium Ion is the way for the IN forward and one of the Kilo boats is reportedly being retrofitted to validate this tech. There were reports of Japan being asked - yet again - to participate in Project 75I. Let them take their time with this, but don't stop the submarine line.

Now a follow-on Vikrant Class vessel is next. Please NHQ, let the common sense continue to flow :)

Not interested in influencing events in Alaska with a 65,000 ton, EMALS equipped, aircraft carrier :mrgreen:

@MeshaVishwas: This news sounds plausible, with Macron's visit to India in March. Sign a mega deal which includes Rafales for IN, additional Rafales for IAF, three more Scorpenes, wet lease the A330 MRTT, etc. For Macron, Christmas 2023 might come early. Again pertains to the view that behind the scenes, there is a lot of back room negotiations going on between France and India. These kind of decisions are not borne out of the blue.

Keep everything alive (MRFA, MRCBF, Project 75I, etc) and have chai-biscoot with everyone, but go to France for critical platforms that will be hard pressed to get from America, without strings attached.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Adm, hope you are right.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

MeshaVishwas wrote:Adm, hope you are right.
It is the logical thing to do. The only thing that is a bit concerning to me is the timing. Such a deal will invite the ire of the opposition and we are about to enter the 2024 general elections. But the Govt likely feels that they have 2024 in the bag already. This is not like your usual opposition to defence deals. The fierce opposition to the Rafale is not from India alone. It does not take a genius to figure out which foreign states are pushing RaGa and his ilk in opposing the Rafale.

Going to the numbers though, it does make sense. Just because we have six Scorpenes now, that does not mean all six can be put out to sea for operational duties. These are machines with a number of sub systems that have to work seamlessly with each other. One critical sub system failure at sea and the entire deployment could be at risk. Having six boats will translate into 3 (perhaps 4) boats available at any given time. These platforms require regular maintenance and servicing, like all machines. Getting another three more boats will translate into 4 (or 5 max) at any given time. Greater the number of boats available increases operational flexibility. That is worth its weight in gold.

This is why the IAF insisted on 75% fleet availability with the Rafale or called PBL (Performance Based Logistics) in the contract. Out of a fleet of 36 Rafales, 27 airframes have to be operationally available at all times. But all 36 cannot be available at all times. That is utopia thinking, which is never real. Thus, when the PLAAF deploys assets to the Tibetan theatrthe real question to ask is how much can the PLAAF actually put to the air at any given time. That is something defence analysts or PLAAF watchers will never know. Our Military Intelligence might have an idea, but it would be guesstimate at best.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:Well said Prem Kumar! +108 to you :)

Some common sense has finally hit Naval HQ! After years of wrangling over P-75I, they are finally re-looking at ordering additional Scorpenes. Naval Group had an offer for 2 - 3 additional Scorpenes and Naval HQ should take up that offer. End the mindless obstinance and keep the line active. Lithium Ion is the way for the IN forward and one of the Kilo boats is reportedly being retrofitted to validate this tech. There were reports of Japan being asked - yet again - to participate in Project 75I. Let them take their time with this, but don't stop the submarine line.

Now a follow-on Vikrant Class vessel is next. Please NHQ, let the common sense continue to flow :)

Not interested in influencing events in Alaska with a 65,000 ton, EMALS equipped, aircraft carrier :mrgreen:

@MeshaVishwas: This news sounds plausible, with Macron's visit to India in March. Sign a mega deal which includes Rafales for IN, additional Rafales for IAF, three more Scorpenes, wet lease the A330 MRTT, etc. For Macron, Christmas 2023 might come early. Again pertains to the view that behind the scenes, there is a lot of back room negotiations going on between France and India. These kind of decisions are not borne out of the blue.

Keep everything alive (MRFA, MRCBF, Project 75I, etc) and have chai-biscoot with everyone, but go to France for critical platforms that will be hard pressed to get from America, without strings attached.
Logic is sadly not the procurement system’s strong point (in fact it’s often the opposite)

The shopping list outlined is exactly what I have had in mind as it would solve the decades long woes of multiple arms in one go but it seems too good to be true and India isn’t prone to these kind of grouped together mega deals


That said, the cutting back of the food subsidy bill, stabilisation of oil prices and record high taxation revenues may have given the GoI some breathing room and the scope to place the down payment on a few Big Bang deals (but then it’s also the run up to an election year which typically is when all large CAPEX drains cease for a good 12-18 months)

I’ll remain skeptical but hope for something (even one of those deals) when Macron is in india
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

MeshaVishwas wrote:Indian Navy may repeat Kalveri class submarine order- Shishir Gupta(HT)

FWIW onlee.
Some analysis based on MDL SOW documents was pointing to this:



These modified subs will have Indian electronics + electric drive + li-ion batteries + AIP (?) & there could be more large & small improvements! Overall Modded Scorpene might also be able to overcome some of its leaked information (to what extent I can't say).
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by fanne »

There are rumours circulating that P75I may get scrapped in favor of Kaleveri+AIP + VLS (which will essentially be P75I). I have a different question though, the volume and space that the AIP will take, can you not put additional LI-ION battery for same volume/weight, will it store/produce similar amount of energy as the AIP? Any chemical engineers here or anyone has read anything?
If this can be achieved, you do not need AIP, you are anyway putting LI-Ion batteries for acid batteries, put extra here, and all safety concerns + solutions that apply in first case will apply here as well.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

The latest generation of Japanese submarine is following the same approach that you are thinking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taigei-class_submarine
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya_V »

The DRDO AIP here is fuel cell technology, if we have mastered the tech along with Lion batteries, imagine charging those batteries while running underwater and even better generating some oxygen for the Diesel engine, all the while the Sub is under water. This could mean the subs can run at high speed with long endurance underwater.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

fanne wrote:There are rumours circulating that P75I may get scrapped in favor of Kaleveri+AIP + VLS (which will essentially be P75I). I have a different question though, the volume and space that the AIP will take, can you not put additional LI-ION battery for same volume/weight, will it store/produce similar amount of energy as the AIP? Any chemical engineers here or anyone has read anything?
If this can be achieved, you do not need AIP, you are anyway putting LI-Ion batteries for acid batteries, put extra here, and all safety concerns + solutions that apply in first case will apply here as well.
No! Energy density of fuel cell is multiples more than Li-ion battery. So for every Kg, fuel cell will produce a lot more energy and hence way more sustenance.

https://umicore.com/en/newsroom/news/fu ... difference
For heavy mobility, Li-Ion is no match to fuel cell.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

Rakesh
any quid pro quo for Macron's early Christmas??
Lion apart, anything we could get from the Les Bleus
Barracuda design?? (not coventional short fin wala)
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by RoyG »

Makes sense to continue the Scorpene line for another 6 and in parallel go for the super k series with larger displacement and vls. Another idea I had is to use super K as template for 76alpha ssn program. Utilize the proven design and expertise and minimize the delay. We can even collaborate with the Brazilians. Maybe, just maybe, the navy is thinking in the right direction.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Cain Marko »

Seems like armed forces are getting on the right track, finally.

But I wonder...
Durust aaye, lekin der toh nahi ho chuki?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

We have some time to catch up with the PRC.

Provided we don't squander any more time.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ramana »

So shall we close this thread as P-75i is canceled?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Let official confirmation come from the Navy. As all this is just speculation at this juncture.

The P75I can still be created as an improved Kalvari.

So this thread can be used as a repository of information for that thread.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by JTull »

When IAC was available for reorder for nearly a decade they ignored it, knowing their unobtanium pipe dreams.

When Kalavari +3 options and other opportunities to reorder were there, they drooled on electric drives, AIP, Lithium batteries, VLS and other features that didn't exist as a package anywhere.

Now they're going back to what everyone knew should have been done in the first place.

As I said, IN planners are a bunch of jokers!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by RoyG »

JTull wrote:When IAC was available for reorder for nearly a decade they ignored it, knowing their unobtanium pipe dreams.

When Kalavari +3 options and other opportunities to reorder were there, they drooled on electric drives, AIP, Lithium batteries, VLS and other features that didn't exist as a package anywhere.

Now they're going back to what everyone knew should have been done in the first place.

As I said, IN planners are a bunch of jokers!
Corruption and poor planning due to state capture.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by venkat_kv »

Good news if true on the follow on order on scorpene, but seems like people blaming the MOD/IN planners for wet dreams are also planning some of their own. The decision making process is slow that we need to think if they truly went for follow on order, the new techs that people are proposing should be already ready and not in the process of testing out. So AIP and VLS for scorpene is a far fetched idea at this point from conventional wisdom.

If i had to guess it would only be a follow on order of scorpene with updates to take care of the previous leaks. lets hold our horses till the announcements are made.

Also one point that has been bugging me is that, we are going with the so called common sense as the forces have tried out every possible scenarios and let their fantasy/requirements play out before the power that be either MOD/govt have said no money or said for the budget we need tech ownership which is not forthcoming, so the forces seem to be moving local now as that is the only thing they can get.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Germany keen on govt-to-govt deal to jointly manufacture submarines
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 161464.cms
23 Feb 2023
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by arvin »

^^^
From the article, looks like South Korea's bid is facing a legal challenge from TKMS over design copy issue. Brilliant move to scuttle them in the final lap for re-entering the contest.
Its close to 10 years since this thread started, even paperwork is not in place.
Designing own submarine from scratch would have been faster. MOD tussi great ho!!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Now the bright idea has suddenly dawned like a tube light being turned on at the offices of the MoD and Naval HQ ----> perhaps we should build a few more Scorpenes, till Project 75I gets finalized. Till now, Scorpene was compromised in the submarine leak scandal.

So now they will set up a committee and have endless discussions over chai-biscoot + hot bondas.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

^^^
Be it 'Pandubbi' ya 'Hawaijehaz' ya 'vimaan vahak'
all will stuck until 2024
N after the 'Nirnayak Yudh' the final cleaning of all the Monsoon Detritus collected over the years in Lootyens will be cleared
Have a feeling post 24 things will change rapidly (pure speculation mind you but Ka karen yeh dil mange more!)
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by wig »

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 88004.html

Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders signs deal with Germany to build diesel submarines;
excerpts
Germany and India are closing in on a deal to build diesel submarines for Indian waters as Russia’s prolonged war in Ukraine has pushed
the Indian government to expand its sources of military hardware beyond its top supplier, according to a report by Bloomberg.
Thyssenkrupp AG’s marine arm and India’s Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited are likely to jointly bid for an estimated $5.2 billion project
the preliminary agreement or the memorandum of understanding will be signed in the presence of Defense Minister Boris Pistorius who arrived in New Delhi on June 5 for a two-day visit, according to German and Indian officials
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Germany, India near $5.2bn deal to build six submarines. Why is this a big deal?
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 4-amp.html
06 June 2023
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

^^^
why are we doing this and not scorpene reorder - ah! MoD babus can make more commissions by going to a new vendor. Just about every stupid move in indian defence procurement can be explained by the commissions MoD babus make.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Click bait headlines Saar. They are only bidding. Nothing confirmed as of yet.

Rumour mills are plenty on re-ordering Scorpene.

* Not happy with the French post customer service

* Boat is compromised due to the Australian Scorpene leak scandal

Regardless, Naval HQ is looking at re-ordering a few more Scorpene boats (2 - 3) to keep the line active, till the first P-75I comes on board. Hopefully that order is taken up. Would love to see the last two names (Kursura and Vagli) also revived from the earlier Foxtrot Class.

The Indian Navy also deeply appreciates their four Shishumar Class (HDW 209, Type 1500) boats. They have provided yeoman service and the German Type 214 is the next technological replacement for the Shishumar Class. If chosen, the Indian Navy will get a customized version of the Type 214, the much larger Type 216 ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_216_submarine.

Interestingly, the Pakistan Navy had zeroed in on the Type 214, till their government overturned that decision and went in for the Chinese Yuan (Type 039B) Class boat. A dumb move IMVHO, but good for us :)

Regardless of who wins the P-75I contest, the more important question is when is the Indian Navy getting modern torpedoes?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

:lol:

https://twitter.com/EkNashwar/status/16 ... 12672?s=20 ---> There are blueprints and ToT documents for Type 209 Shishumar Class gathering dust in MDL basements. A layer of Scorpene design documents added on top. With this latest set of ToT documents, we will have three layers of ToT pastry. Good enough for a pie.

https://twitter.com/MacaulaysMonkey/sta ... 37507?s=20 ---> IIRC the Scorpene deal is just build to print, with no deep ToT. Also has high import content.

https://twitter.com/EkNashwar/status/16 ... 86144?s=20 ---> MDL didn't have access to the benchmark data, but as per MDL CMD they tried to go independent in testing and benchmarking 5th Scorpene onwards. IN didn't entertain the idea.

https://twitter.com/MacaulaysMonkey/sta ... 96421?s=20 ---> Don’t blame the IN. Independent testing wouldn’t fly without the baseline data. They could of course use earlier Scorpenes, but those would be secondary at best.

https://twitter.com/EkNashwar/status/16 ... 35980?s=20 ---> Anyways this looks like another round of ToT circus. We are able to build SSBNs and multiple models of licensed submarine designs, but fail to go independent with P76. The trained staff of MDL and L&T along with existing ecosystem go to waste without any follow on orders.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/166 ... 04096?s=20 ---> After its No.1 Bestseller 'How Not To Buy Fighters', the Indian MoD is all set to unveil its next blockbuster, 'How Not To Buy Submarines'. :rotfl:

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1666 ... 55104?s=20 ---> Flash: Germany's TKMS & India's MDL sign MoU to bid for India's Submarine project under Project 75I.

Image
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Indian fanboy military sites are spinning stories again :)

TKMS & MDL to sign MoU for Dolphin-II class submarine for India’s Project-75I
https://indiandefenseanalysis.com/2023/ ... oject-75i/

The title above says Dolphin 2 Class, but the article (towards the bottom) talks about the Dakar Class, which is the next generation SSK for the Israeli Navy and will replace their Dolphin 1 Class boats. Some info on the Dakar Class if anyone is interested in having a read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakar-class_submarine

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... ar-feature
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/166 ... 04096?s=20 ---> After its No.1 Bestseller 'How Not To Buy Fighters', the Indian MoD is all set to unveil its next blockbuster, 'How Not To Buy Submarines'. :rotfl:

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1666 ... 55104?s=20 ---> Flash: Germany's TKMS & India's MDL sign MoU to bid for India's Submarine project under Project 75I....
A particularly astute wag has commented thus about the photo - "The gentleman in the light blue shirt on the left is the only one who knows what is going to happen to this project" :mrgreen:
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Kersi »

Manish_P wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/livefist/status/166 ... 04096?s=20 ---> After its No.1 Bestseller 'How Not To Buy Fighters', the Indian MoD is all set to unveil its next blockbuster, 'How Not To Buy Submarines'. :rotfl:

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1666 ... 55104?s=20 ---> Flash: Germany's TKMS & India's MDL sign MoU to bid for India's Submarine project under Project 75I....
A particularly astute wag has commented thus about the photo - "The gentleman in the light blue shirt on the left is the only one who knows what is going to happen to this project" :mrgreen:

Looks like he is smirking !!!!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

After Hanwha’s K-9 Vajra, submarines are the potential area to collaborate with India, says Kim Dae-Young, EVP
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... p-3144944/
27 June 2023
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