I'm sure we can explain this away as paying hafta to one P5 member or the other Besides, it's always better to "stop re-inventing the wheel" and hope for ToT for n+1 gen instead of using the lessons learned from the previous ToT. It's just common sense.Vivek K wrote: After TOT from HDW and Scorpene, using foreign tech or equipment for the P-75I requirement will be treason. All officials that inked these previous deals must go through tax audits to identify their assets and income sources and put behind bars for looting the taxpayer.
Project 75I - It Begins
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 17441?s=20 ---> India in talks with South American nations for supplying Lithium required for strategic purposes such as the Li-Ion batteries for India's next gen P-75I submarines. Li-ion equipped submarines would be far superior to AIP equipped subs.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
If you never produce anything yourself, producing anything is like re-inventing the wheel. Every system requires sub-systems and a supply chain. If allyou do is assembly from imported components and call it as TOT licensed manufacture, what you're saying is appropriate. We call it screwdriver giri here. And so you will need a new screwdriver for every new Licensed manufacture.m_saini wrote:
I'm sure we can explain this away as paying hafta to one P5 member or the other Besides, it's always better to "stop re-inventing the wheel" and hope for ToT for n+1 gen instead of using the lessons learned from the previous ToT. It's just common sense.
When we say N+1 gen tech transfer to prevent re-inventing the wheel, we are fooling ourselves. All the licensed manufacture of Migs, Sukhois, Jags, and their engines did not teach us anything about CFD analysis or metallurgy. One has to build a foundation of these and so if it was not for the LCA, India would still be inviting Kurt Tank's grandsons for their next plane endeavor and then call it Indian.
By treating domestic development with contempt, India is looking to lose its tech edge.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
India to tap ‘Lithium Triangle’ for Lithium-ION batteries onboard Indian Navy subs.Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 17441?s=20 ---> India in talks with South American nations for supplying Lithium required for strategic purposes such as the Li-Ion batteries for India's next gen P-75I submarines. Li-ion equipped submarines would be far superior to AIP equipped subs.
Following in the footsteps of the Japanese and South Korean navies, the Indian Navy has issued a RFI seeking details of Li-ion batteries. These batteries will be fitted in all the future submarines in the Indian Navy which are being designed to use this technology.
Lithium-ion battery development is at an advanced stage with all leading global submarine manufacturers and one could guesstimate that by the end of this decade, all modern SSKs will be powered by Li-ion batteries.
“Indian submarines still do not have Air-independent Propulsion (AIP) even on the latest Kalvari class submarines. India’s DRDO is developing an indigenous fuel cell AIP system but fitment on a submarine is yet some distance away,” Indian Navy veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh tells Financial Express Online.
Financial Express Online has been reporting on India’s exploratory visits to the `Lithium Triangle’ nations (Argentina, Bolivia & Chile) to meet its target of having Electric Vehicles by 2030. And it was for this reason in 2019, the government has formed `KABIL’ consortium which has three state-owned companies: National Aluminum Company (NALCO), Hindustan Copper (HCL) and Mineral Exploration Corp Ltd., (MECL).
The Purpose of this consortium
It has been set up to help in the process of acquiring this most strategic mineral globally. This mineral is required not only for the EVs but is used in other sectors including space launchers, solar panels, mobile phones and laptops and hi-tech military platforms including submarines for the Indian Navy. KABIL will help in processing the mineral once acquired from any of the three countries in South America.
Last year, President Ram Nath Kovind had visited two out of the three ‘Lithium Triangle’ nations and the focus of talks was also on joint manufacturing and facilitating the process of acquiring the rare metal. And, the former President of Argentina Mauricio Marci, had also visited India.
Today, since there is a huge demand for the Li-on batteries and cells due to their high energy density, these are imported 100 per cent. With the ongoing standoff between India and China, the focus has now shifted on setting up R&D and Technology Development Facilities, as the government plans to manufacture the batteries and cells here locally.
While India and Bolivia are in talks about having a joint manufacturing base for the batteries, both Chile and Argentina are in talks about exploration and exports of Lithium.
Submarines of Japan & South Korea
“In March 2020, the JMSDF (Japanese Maritime Self Defence Force) became the first navy in the world to operationalise lithium-ion battery technology on submarines onboard its newest submarine, JS Ouryo, the 11th of the Soryu class submarines commissioned in March 2020. Lithium-ion batteries will also power the 12th and last of the Soryu class and the forthcoming Tiagei class, the first of which was launched in November 2020. Many more navies are expected to follow suit with the South Korean Navy’s new KSS-III submarines, currently under construction also being fitted with this technology,” says Indian Navy veteran Commodore Anil Jai Singh.
According to the former submariner, “The South Koreans are planning to go a step further than the Japanese. While the Japanese have done away with their Stirling engine based Air-independent Propulsion (AIP) system onboard the Ouryo and its successor, the South Koreans are planning to reconfigure their fuel cell AIP system to operate in conjunction with the lithium-ion batteries on board. This will greatly enhance both, the speed and the endurance of diesel-electric submarines (SSK). Most other submarine manufacturers are expected to follow suit with each of them in various stages of developing Li-ion battery systems for their respective designs.”
Availability of Lithium in the world as shown in figure, where South America holds – 19043 Kilo tonnes, North America – 7693 Kilo tonnes, Australia – 9256 Kilo tonnes, Europe – 2178 Kilo tonnes, Africa -1202 Kilo tonnes.
Use of Lithium Batteries & how will it help
According to Commodore Singh, “Li-ion batteries are already being used to power practice torpedoes and unmanned underwater vehicles but there had been a hesitation to incorporate these onboard submarines because of lingering safety concerns. The exploding Samsung -7 Note mobile telephones and the frequent fires on board the Boeing 787 aircraft were both attributed to lithium-ion batteries.”
This breakthrough technology which has begun replacing the traditional lead-acid batteries in use for over one hundred years on submarines greatly reduces the constraints on underwater speed and endurance that limits the options available for their deployment. Lead-acid batteries, because of their high discharge rates required to be charged frequently and even the most conservative operational profile underwater would still require them to be charged at least once in 48-72 hours.
“Doing top speed underwater would discharge them in about a couple of hours. Charging of batteries requires a submarine to operate its diesel generators which then charge the batteries. The diesel generators need fresh air for their operation. Hence the submarine has to expose its ‘snorkel’ mast to take in fresh air and risks detection by the enemy. This complicates the Commanding Officer’s options to attack or evade the enemy in hostile waters. Improvements in lead-acid battery technology over the years has mitigated this to some extent with the endeavour being to minimise the ‘indiscretion rate’ which is the percentage of the time a submarine is exposed in a 24-hour cycle,” he explains to Financial Express Online.
“The introduction of AIP systems which allows a submarine at economical speed to remain underwater for up to a fortnight without charging batteries has reduced indiscretion rates to a negligible value but has not appreciably enhanced the operational profile at higher speeds. Lithium-ion batteries, with their higher energy and longer lifecycle are set to change this by improving the endurance at higher speeds thus providing the submarine commander with a wider range of tactical options and will also facilitate the integration of the submarine into a network-centric force deployment over a larger area of the ocean,” he adds.
In conclusion, he says, “One of the main concerns which inhibited their deployment of submarines was the hazards of thermal runaway, fire and explosion but as development has progressed these have been addressed and the operational deployment of these on submarines is reassuring.”
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
If this is totally a domestic design then it makes no sense to have an imported P 75 IRakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 57633?s=20 ---> Report: 'Steel cutting' of Indian Navy's first nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) to take place in 2021-22. Total of 6 to be built.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Posting here a link to an article on the P75I i had penned nearly 5 months ago , do read. would love to know your thoughts on the same.
https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/a-co ... 5i-program
https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/a-co ... 5i-program
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Per a Defence AV L&T has designed a new submarine for Coastal operations.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
It is a nice encapsulation of facts known today and a good projection down the line. However, unfortunately it doesn't address the basic issue I have with this whole p75I.soumik wrote:Posting here a link to an article on the P75I i had penned nearly 5 months ago , do read. would love to know your thoughts on the same.
https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/a-co ... 5i-program
That is that it is nearly as expensive as a Khan SSN. But for a conventional boat.
I would have been happy with a conventional version of the arihant class. That would have been relatively easy to design with the experience already accumulated within the navy.
The added advantage being that no license fee has to be paid. IP would be totally Indian. Updates as per our convience. We can build as many as we want and don't have to run arround for a new design after 6 boats.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
That's a great development. If the concept is sound. They can easily scale it up to get an ocean going boat.Vips wrote:Per a Defence AV L&T has designed a new submarine for Coastal operations.
Fingers crossed.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
From Shiv Aroor's Livefist blog ...
Race Heats Up To Ready Indian AIP For Scorpene Submarines
Race Heats Up To Ready Indian AIP For Scorpene Submarines
...
Q. Naval Group has proposed for years to have the line build a few more Scorpene class for the Indian Navy. Break down for us whether these submarines would be different from the first six. Why hasn’t that proposal found a taker in the Indian Navy yet?
A. Developing a new submarine takes much more time, efforts and planning than any one anticipates. This will not only require efforts of the OEM, but also huge investment by the Indian shipyards and budgetary outgo for the Indian government. So to build upon what you have achieved incrementally is the most cost effective way to get more submarines quickly, while the P75(I) project remains the mid long term goal for the Navy.
If such a proposal is accepted by Navy/MoD, the additional submarine built will cater to the current requirement of the Navy namely AIP as well as several improvements over the present Scorpene® class. The platform can also be integrated with more advanced weapons as per the need of the customer. I may also like to add that the Kalvari class submarines have proved their worth during their operational deployment.
...
Q. Update us on Naval Group’s proposal for the P75I, which it appears may finally be making some concrete progress in the foreseeable future. How does Naval Group hope to leverage the obvious advantages of a ready manufacturing line at MDL?
A. We are honored to have received and responded to the EOI for the OEMs. The requirements of this new submarine program are much more demanding than the previous one and to our knowledge no existing sea proven submarine on the market today can fulfill them all without passing through new design and development phase.
Having already achieved very high level of indigenization during P75 project and the expertise derived from designing and constructing both latest generation of conventional and nuclear submarine of different size and tonnage, Naval Group is ready to propose a fully compliant solution with the maximum adaptation to meet requirement of Indian Navy.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The biggest reveal of the interview is the conversations on extending Scorpene production. The original contract had an options clause of 3 boats - IMHO something that should be exercised irrespective of whether we have a Project-75I or not.
If the ask to Naval Group is to create a brand new submarine, I am sure they will oblige, as long as we foot the bill!
If the ask to Naval Group is to create a brand new submarine, I am sure they will oblige, as long as we foot the bill!
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
We are looking at a situation where 4 submarine programs are to progress in parallel in broadly the same timeframe (~2025 - 2035):
SSBN - at SBC/HSL/L&T
SSN - ?
SOV - at HSL/L&T
SSK (Project-75I)
This is aside from IAC-II and much needed MCM programs.
Is this realistic?
SSBN - at SBC/HSL/L&T
SSN - ?
SOV - at HSL/L&T
SSK (Project-75I)
This is aside from IAC-II and much needed MCM programs.
Is this realistic?
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The v.high non- AIP Scorpene cost, slow construction, plus v.damaging data leaks are why the IN hasn't given extra Scorpenes the nod as yet. Also being evaluated are the 3+3 new/ refurbished Kilos ,6 subs which will come at the cost of just 3 Scorpenes. These Kilos will also be 2500km Kalibir capable while the Scorpenes can carry only 100+km Exocets. Instead of Scorpenes we should buy/ build a new line of U-boats which have a proven AIP system,superior to the French MESMA,on Paki Agostas too. These new U-boats can replace our 4 Sishumar class SSKs while a new Ru conv. sub replaces the Kilos as they retire. The N- sub programme is another matter ,where a series of SSBNs and SSNs are being built in parallel.
The evaluation of the various contendersfor the P-75I req. will be a nightmare,like the MMRCA contest and may end up as another " much ado about nothing!" Far better to quickly go in for G-2-G deals.We've done so for P-8Is,C-17s, etc.,why not subs too?
The evaluation of the various contendersfor the P-75I req. will be a nightmare,like the MMRCA contest and may end up as another " much ado about nothing!" Far better to quickly go in for G-2-G deals.We've done so for P-8Is,C-17s, etc.,why not subs too?
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
This has probably been answered on the forum before, but do we have drawings and rights to manufacture more of the Shishumar class boats? Can we make more of those akin to Dhanush 155mm guns?Philip wrote:...we should buy/ build a new line of U-boats which have a proven AIP system,superior to the French MESMA,on Paki Agostas too. These new U-boats can replace our 4 Sishumar class SSKs while a new Ru conv. sub replaces the Kilos as they retire.....
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 68832?s=20 ---> Report: France's Naval Group (ex DCNS) has outsourced procurement of certain equipment for the French Navy’s latest submarines and frigates under construction from Indian MSMEs due to high quality of work shown by them in P-75 program of Indian Navy.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Realistic Naval Plans? No. This fantasy is continuously pushed by Naval HQ in the hopes that the constant messaging will bear some fruit. Naval HQ believes that they can get everything - 65K aircraft carrier, six P-75I boats, six SSNs, additional SSBNs, phoren carrier borne fighters, etc. These naval fantasies are fueled by arm lobbies, so-called geopolitical think tanks, foreign weapons manufacturers and even some retired naval personnel. On BRF itself, this fantasy is fueled by folks who grew up on wet dreams of the teens joining the Indian Air Force or the Indian Naval Air Arm.Aditya G wrote:We are looking at a situation where 4 submarine programs are to progress in parallel in broadly the same timeframe (~2025 - 2035):
SSBN - at SBC/HSL/L&T
SSN - ?
SOV - at HSL/L&T
SSK (Project-75I)
This is aside from IAC-II and much needed MCM programs.
Is this realistic?
Not a single one of those programs will come on time, but the Navy is insisting on unobtanium platforms with unrealistic timeframes. Here is a list of all the pending projects. And since time memorial, the Army and Air Force have always got the lion share of the budget. P-75I should get sanctioned in 2021, but the rest is just a pipe dream.
https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 46976?s=20 ---> Although there are some mistakes, this is the list of pending big ticket agreements for Indian military.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/134 ... 33027?s=20 ---> DRDO's 270kw capacity AIP.
*Based on Indigenously developed PAFC (Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell) based tech.
* H and O2 are supplied to fuel cells to produce power.
Hydrogen is generated on-board by a hydrogen gen plant and O2 is supplied through LOx (Liquid Oxygen) stored in the Cryo tank. Trial completion is dated for 2021 end.
*Based on Indigenously developed PAFC (Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cell) based tech.
* H and O2 are supplied to fuel cells to produce power.
Hydrogen is generated on-board by a hydrogen gen plant and O2 is supplied through LOx (Liquid Oxygen) stored in the Cryo tank. Trial completion is dated for 2021 end.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
First of all there has to be an acknowledgement that there is a funding and procurement issue at hand for the Navy. So far this is known in the context of IAC-II, but in fact this is a wider one since there are a number of large programs coming up in parallel, each of which are critical and long pending. These include MCM, LPD/LHD, NUH, HWT Torpedo, ship borne UAV aside from Project-75I.Rakesh wrote:...they can get everything - 65K aircraft carrier, six P-75I boats, six SSNs, additional SSBNs, phoren carrier borne fighters, etc.....
The only silver lining is that in the next 2-3 years a lot of existing contracts will yield completed ships, thus freeing up capital funds for the next round of acquisition.
In the meantime PN has now set its sights on becoming a 50-ship Navy, what's more, all of this with new build platforms unlike the mostly second hand ships they are used to. I cannot help making a comparison - perhaps there is something to learn from them? Or closer home, the ICG which has successfully embarked on a massive force expansion.
PN has been able to expand on the cheap by;
- Building ships to commercial standards (Yarmook class OPV)
- Buying less capable but cheaper platforms (Chinese ships)
- Purchasing the platform and equipping it separately (ATR-72 and now Embraer jets)
Of course they have benefit of massive assistance by China.
I do not mean IN to go the PN way. However IN will have to make difficult choices - there is already some evidence of that; orders for P-8I and Ka-31 have been trimmed, while LPD program is now visualized at 2 ships instead of 4.
Aside from foregoing IAC-II altogether, the Navy will have to embrace a smaller submarine fleet or a more realistic set of requirements. What's the point of pursuing a large ocean going uber-SSK and a SSN simultaneously? Both have their place, so why not go for a cheaper SSK and leave the Brahmos firing to the SSN? Instead of pursuing Sea Guardian, buy more Herons for example.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Aditya, the only bottleneck in this entire sordid issue is Naval HQ. They can modify their requirements, but they do not want to. I-am-going-to-hold-my-breath-till-I-turn-blue-until-you-give-me-what-I-ask-for is not a strategy that is working for them, but they are still pushing it. Here are some examples;
* Naval HQ is insisting on six Project 75I Class boats, all the while the current fleet of Kilo and HDW 209 boats are aging rapidly. The Scorpene line will close next year and so will the financial wisdom of ordering additional Scorpene boats till the first Project 75I vessel enters service in the early 2030s. How many of those Kilo and HDW 209 boats will be service till the early 2030s? Acute submarine shortage, but we only want the best. We will wait for eons for the best and so will the enemy. Our enemies play very fair that way.
* Naval HQ is pushing for a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier with EMALS for quite a while now. They do not want a larger Vikrant Class vessel, because they believe it will be only a modest step up from the present Vikrant. Do they have a choice, funding wise? Their insistence on CATOBAR is surprising. If a war breaks out...what happens if that CATOBAR vessel is in refit or docked for maintenance, while their STOBAR carriers are out at sea? Will the IN be less effective as a result? And as per the Navy's own timeline, it will take 15 years from keel laying to commissioning. 15 Years. There is ZERO hope in that vessel being commissioned in 15 years. A big fat ZERO. This program has gone to the MoD for sanctioning of funds, but they were told no by the MoD. Reason - Too Expensive.
* Naval HQ has put a request for phoren carrier borne fighters. The numbers vary from 57 - 36 and is a very expensive purchase. 57 phoren carrier borne fighters will cost more than the 65K carrier. Imagine that. 36 will be quite expensive as well and it is for that reason that they want to jump on board with the IAF's 114 MRFA contest, which is another boondoggle.
And not that this matters to the decision makers in New Delhi, but points 2 and 3 gives a few folks on BRF orgasmic euphorias. 65K, EMALS, nuclear power, CATOBAR, phoren carrier borne fighter (preferably F-18SH) and China will shiver & quiver in her boots. With such an awesome capability, our naval pilots will trounce the PLAN. And in a war of high attrition against the PLAN, the IN can just borrow F-18s from the USN. So simple onlee. To counter the massive PLAN, only alliance with Amreeka can stop the Xi onslaught.
Coming back to reality...this is how illogical and unplanned procurement decisions are being made by the services. The CDS is streamlining the process and that is causing a lot of takleef at Naval and Air HQ. When the CDS wanted a relook at the 114 MRFA program...the very next day, the Air Chief came out defending the MRFA acquisition. And these above three naval programs have to compete with a host of other acquisitions + modernization programs in the Navy, Army and Air Force. But the Navy honestly believes that they can have it all. Good luck!
IMVHO....these fancy acquisitions exist for geopolitics onlee. The Joint Working Group Committees (for point 2 in particular) were setup between US and India, to display the strategic partnership between the two nations. The reality was more akin to the US trying to get India to eternally buy into the American MIC system and move away from Russia. But those working groups failed, as the Amreekis themselves have admitted. India's view of a multipolar alignment clashes with the American view.
And despite all the bonhomie, acquiring American equipment requires India to pay for that equipment. And funds are not that readily available, especially now. Same is true when equipment is acquired from the evil Russies or my philanthropic friends from La France. No country will give India anything for free, regardless of all the partnerships. I clearly remember the scare-your-knickers strategy being shamelessly played out in the Single Engine Fighter thread on BRF.
* Naval HQ is insisting on six Project 75I Class boats, all the while the current fleet of Kilo and HDW 209 boats are aging rapidly. The Scorpene line will close next year and so will the financial wisdom of ordering additional Scorpene boats till the first Project 75I vessel enters service in the early 2030s. How many of those Kilo and HDW 209 boats will be service till the early 2030s? Acute submarine shortage, but we only want the best. We will wait for eons for the best and so will the enemy. Our enemies play very fair that way.
* Naval HQ is pushing for a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier with EMALS for quite a while now. They do not want a larger Vikrant Class vessel, because they believe it will be only a modest step up from the present Vikrant. Do they have a choice, funding wise? Their insistence on CATOBAR is surprising. If a war breaks out...what happens if that CATOBAR vessel is in refit or docked for maintenance, while their STOBAR carriers are out at sea? Will the IN be less effective as a result? And as per the Navy's own timeline, it will take 15 years from keel laying to commissioning. 15 Years. There is ZERO hope in that vessel being commissioned in 15 years. A big fat ZERO. This program has gone to the MoD for sanctioning of funds, but they were told no by the MoD. Reason - Too Expensive.
* Naval HQ has put a request for phoren carrier borne fighters. The numbers vary from 57 - 36 and is a very expensive purchase. 57 phoren carrier borne fighters will cost more than the 65K carrier. Imagine that. 36 will be quite expensive as well and it is for that reason that they want to jump on board with the IAF's 114 MRFA contest, which is another boondoggle.
And not that this matters to the decision makers in New Delhi, but points 2 and 3 gives a few folks on BRF orgasmic euphorias. 65K, EMALS, nuclear power, CATOBAR, phoren carrier borne fighter (preferably F-18SH) and China will shiver & quiver in her boots. With such an awesome capability, our naval pilots will trounce the PLAN. And in a war of high attrition against the PLAN, the IN can just borrow F-18s from the USN. So simple onlee. To counter the massive PLAN, only alliance with Amreeka can stop the Xi onslaught.
Coming back to reality...this is how illogical and unplanned procurement decisions are being made by the services. The CDS is streamlining the process and that is causing a lot of takleef at Naval and Air HQ. When the CDS wanted a relook at the 114 MRFA program...the very next day, the Air Chief came out defending the MRFA acquisition. And these above three naval programs have to compete with a host of other acquisitions + modernization programs in the Navy, Army and Air Force. But the Navy honestly believes that they can have it all. Good luck!
IMVHO....these fancy acquisitions exist for geopolitics onlee. The Joint Working Group Committees (for point 2 in particular) were setup between US and India, to display the strategic partnership between the two nations. The reality was more akin to the US trying to get India to eternally buy into the American MIC system and move away from Russia. But those working groups failed, as the Amreekis themselves have admitted. India's view of a multipolar alignment clashes with the American view.
And despite all the bonhomie, acquiring American equipment requires India to pay for that equipment. And funds are not that readily available, especially now. Same is true when equipment is acquired from the evil Russies or my philanthropic friends from La France. No country will give India anything for free, regardless of all the partnerships. I clearly remember the scare-your-knickers strategy being shamelessly played out in the Single Engine Fighter thread on BRF.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Project 75I Submarines: How India Can Make The Most Out Of The Strategic Partnership Model In Defence
From this piece -
From this piece -
...This cycle must be broken.
This would require that the Indian Navy pays and owns the full IP for that particular design and sub systems, even if not exclusively. The IP ownership will ensure that we can work on the future modifications and upgrades ourselves with or without the OEM every time and will also pave the way for future sub development indigenously.
This will also provide us insurance from incidents like the costly Scorpene leaks that happened, as we could work on mitigating the effects of such sensitive info leaks ourselves.
This will be a hard bargain to drive with the OEM, but is possible in a post Covid world.
But this also requires a national consensus on the path taken. A huge upfront cost is expected for such a project if we go down the lane of paid up licensing for R&D and IP ownership for building unlimited number of submarines in future without royalties.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Need to convince the French to give us some sort of benefits/discount/freebies if we order 3 follow up Scorpenes and 36 more Rafales.
Neither the P-75i nor the MRCA 3.0 seem to be going anywhere soon and we definitely don't have the money or the time to conduct another drawn out process and add another complex system to the mess we already have.
Streamline the process and make use of the production/training/maintenance facilities we already posses for both systems
Now obviously this would mess less cutbacks and bribes so it may not be as attractive to Naval HQ and Air Chief
Neither the P-75i nor the MRCA 3.0 seem to be going anywhere soon and we definitely don't have the money or the time to conduct another drawn out process and add another complex system to the mess we already have.
Streamline the process and make use of the production/training/maintenance facilities we already posses for both systems
Now obviously this would mess less cutbacks and bribes so it may not be as attractive to Naval HQ and Air Chief
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
^^^
This further reduces the case for an Imported P75I
This further reduces the case for an Imported P75I
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Excellent points, Rakesh! Not sure if the Navy is learning some bad lessons from the IA and IAF. They were usually pragmatic & indigenous-supporting in the past, partly due to a reduced budget. But if they see truancy from the IA & IAF being rewarded, they could be forgiven for thinking "Hey, why not me?"
If I were the CDS, I'd convince RM to do the following:
1) Kill the 65K carrier wet-dream. Channel the money, if available, to any/all of the following:
a) R&D for a homegrown SSK fleet
b) Surface combatants that are better-armed, minesweepers etc
c) Fund DARPA like programs for UUVs, homegrown Sea-Guardians, SOSUS arrays, ELF equipment, blue-green lasers for submarine communications, aerostats etc. We're already seeing success with programs like SMART.
d) We should aim to have our own P8I equivalent. See if the IN can build commonality on IAF's upcoming Airbus bases AEW&C fleet. For both medium-range and long-range surveillance.
e) Induct more Dhruv-based NUH variants for utility, surveillance & ASW
f) Fund AIP tech
2) Convert 75i to 6 more Scorpene 75s, with AIP
3) Tell Brahmos Corp (& fund them) to develop a torpedo launched version for our SSK fleet. No point in building a sub around the constraints imposed by a conventional cruise missile. Its not like Brahmos is a K-4 or K-5, to build subs around it.
4) Kill 114 MRFA publicly - will send a message to IAF & IN that truancy won't be rewarded. The future is Tejas MK1, 1A, 2, TEDBF & AMCA (and the Mig-29Ks). Alongwith SU-30 MKIs & Rafales for the high end. That's a mind-boggling variety in of itself
If I were the CDS, I'd convince RM to do the following:
1) Kill the 65K carrier wet-dream. Channel the money, if available, to any/all of the following:
a) R&D for a homegrown SSK fleet
b) Surface combatants that are better-armed, minesweepers etc
c) Fund DARPA like programs for UUVs, homegrown Sea-Guardians, SOSUS arrays, ELF equipment, blue-green lasers for submarine communications, aerostats etc. We're already seeing success with programs like SMART.
d) We should aim to have our own P8I equivalent. See if the IN can build commonality on IAF's upcoming Airbus bases AEW&C fleet. For both medium-range and long-range surveillance.
e) Induct more Dhruv-based NUH variants for utility, surveillance & ASW
f) Fund AIP tech
2) Convert 75i to 6 more Scorpene 75s, with AIP
3) Tell Brahmos Corp (& fund them) to develop a torpedo launched version for our SSK fleet. No point in building a sub around the constraints imposed by a conventional cruise missile. Its not like Brahmos is a K-4 or K-5, to build subs around it.
4) Kill 114 MRFA publicly - will send a message to IAF & IN that truancy won't be rewarded. The future is Tejas MK1, 1A, 2, TEDBF & AMCA (and the Mig-29Ks). Alongwith SU-30 MKIs & Rafales for the high end. That's a mind-boggling variety in of itself
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 06914?s=20 ---> Indian Navy to undertake indigenous development of a 5MW electric propulsion motor for submarines. Likely to be used onboard P-75I submarines.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
What matters with our conv. sub procurement,assets is the weaponry they possess. An AIP system which adds UW endurance time to a conv. sub is useless if it does not have the best weapons with it. None of the western subs have anything like Klub or Kalibir. The thus far non-export MTCR version used only by the RuN.Kalibir has been a huge success in the Syrian conflict ,range being extended to a staggering 4000km! Kalibir is a9⁹vailable to us as we are MTCR members.
The Scorpenes are unable to even carry a 300km anti-ship missile like the Klub which has a Mach 3.5 terminal warhead,only subsonic 100km+ Exocets. The data leak has made it vulnerable too.The only reason for a few more,2 or 3 only, is to have a decent number in service to be able to operate them in the future with a desi component supply chain in hand.The same logic for the extra 6 Kilos,which will give us a total of 14,at least 8 to10 in good shape for another decade+ ,which will be able to carry Klub/Kalibir,BMos- NG ,Shkval,etc.
The Scorpene line should be used to build German U-boats,replacements for our 209s once Scorpenes are finished.Let me remind all that France agreed not to provide India with advanced superior sub-technology to Oz in order to win the order.
The Scorpenes are unable to even carry a 300km anti-ship missile like the Klub which has a Mach 3.5 terminal warhead,only subsonic 100km+ Exocets. The data leak has made it vulnerable too.The only reason for a few more,2 or 3 only, is to have a decent number in service to be able to operate them in the future with a desi component supply chain in hand.The same logic for the extra 6 Kilos,which will give us a total of 14,at least 8 to10 in good shape for another decade+ ,which will be able to carry Klub/Kalibir,BMos- NG ,Shkval,etc.
The Scorpene line should be used to build German U-boats,replacements for our 209s once Scorpenes are finished.Let me remind all that France agreed not to provide India with advanced superior sub-technology to Oz in order to win the order.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The IN has taken a step backwards the last decade. IMO.
The whole P75I conception was flawed. Instead, the IN experiences operating Kilo, Type-1500 and Scorpene together with DRDO labs and consultancy from Russian and French could have by now come up with an indigenous SSK design. Build it iteratively in batches of 6 with more and more indigenous content.
Similarly, Naval LCA Mk.1 is quite useful in itself as a combat capable LIFT. Easily 20 units could have been accommodated. Use the Mk1A upgrades if need be.
List goes on with ALH Mk.3/4 navalised variant along with R&D into indigenous MPA. Unlike the past decades, indigenous capabilities have been realized; no longer IN needs to seek foreign platforms in their entirety.
The whole P75I conception was flawed. Instead, the IN experiences operating Kilo, Type-1500 and Scorpene together with DRDO labs and consultancy from Russian and French could have by now come up with an indigenous SSK design. Build it iteratively in batches of 6 with more and more indigenous content.
Similarly, Naval LCA Mk.1 is quite useful in itself as a combat capable LIFT. Easily 20 units could have been accommodated. Use the Mk1A upgrades if need be.
List goes on with ALH Mk.3/4 navalised variant along with R&D into indigenous MPA. Unlike the past decades, indigenous capabilities have been realized; no longer IN needs to seek foreign platforms in their entirety.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Srai,I agree with you.The IN's top brass havd had too much interaction with the USN and have been brainwashed by them,esp. pushing large CVs yo have US naval fighters aboard.Boeing esp. want to sell all its inventory of aging stock.F-18s,F-15s now when we already have a superior Mki,Bmos capable, more Apaches,tankets,etc. It is the sub inventory that's in peril. 13 aging subs,undergoing second refits too,none AIP including the 6 new Scorpenes of which only 2 have been commissioned thus far,a 5 yr. delay. The PN have been operating AIP Agostas for over a decade.
The NLCA Mk-1 as you said could be a LIFT bird, plus giving us extra nos. to comlpement/ augment any shortfall in 29Ks. They can even be based on land,islands too, as many nations do. It would0 give the INi invaluable experience in operating the NLCA, the basic version of our future NLCA Mk-2 whatever.
Similarly,when we are building and leasing SSNs,SSGNs, with heavier payloads, our P-75I boat should've been optimised for hunter-killer ops. in the shallower waters of the IOR littorals instead of attempting to be pocket N -subs.
The NLCA Mk-1 as you said could be a LIFT bird, plus giving us extra nos. to comlpement/ augment any shortfall in 29Ks. They can even be based on land,islands too, as many nations do. It would0 give the INi invaluable experience in operating the NLCA, the basic version of our future NLCA Mk-2 whatever.
Similarly,when we are building and leasing SSNs,SSGNs, with heavier payloads, our P-75I boat should've been optimised for hunter-killer ops. in the shallower waters of the IOR littorals instead of attempting to be pocket N -subs.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Posting this selected snipet from Naval Group India Chairman Rear Admiral Rahul Shrawat interview by livefist:
"Update us on Naval Group’s proposal for the P75I, which it appears may finally be making some concrete progress in the foreseeable future. How does Naval Group hope to leverage the obvious advantages of a ready manufacturing line at MDL?
A. We are honored to have received and responded to the EOI for the OEMs. The requirements of this new submarine program are much more demanding than the previous one and to our knowledge no existing sea proven submarine on the market today can fulfill them all without passing through new design and development phase.
Having already achieved very high level of indigenization during P75 project and the expertise derived from designing and constructing both latest generation of conventional and nuclear submarine of different size and tonnage, Naval Group is ready to propose a fully compliant solution with the maximum adaptation to meet requirement of Indian Navy.
Given the strategic partnership and the mutual working experience we have developed with Indian industries and shipyards, we would definitely be happy to propose a design fully compliant with the new specifications."
This very well summarizes, whatever Navy is asking for P-75I is not available with any boat in the market especially Naval Group in action. The new features/boat will have to be developed , tested and certified. So Scorpenes for P-75I is not upto the mark with the new requirements.
"Update us on Naval Group’s proposal for the P75I, which it appears may finally be making some concrete progress in the foreseeable future. How does Naval Group hope to leverage the obvious advantages of a ready manufacturing line at MDL?
A. We are honored to have received and responded to the EOI for the OEMs. The requirements of this new submarine program are much more demanding than the previous one and to our knowledge no existing sea proven submarine on the market today can fulfill them all without passing through new design and development phase.
Having already achieved very high level of indigenization during P75 project and the expertise derived from designing and constructing both latest generation of conventional and nuclear submarine of different size and tonnage, Naval Group is ready to propose a fully compliant solution with the maximum adaptation to meet requirement of Indian Navy.
Given the strategic partnership and the mutual working experience we have developed with Indian industries and shipyards, we would definitely be happy to propose a design fully compliant with the new specifications."
This very well summarizes, whatever Navy is asking for P-75I is not available with any boat in the market especially Naval Group in action. The new features/boat will have to be developed , tested and certified. So Scorpenes for P-75I is not upto the mark with the new requirements.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The good admiral should've been asked the Q about the committment by NG to OZ NOT to give India superior sub tfch,which they did to win the OZ contract.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
they would say the same to India ., you can have a desi lemonade or starbucks , which one would you likePhilip wrote:The good admiral should've been asked the Q about the committment by NG to OZ NOT to give India superior sub tfch,which they did to win the OZ contract.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
German sausage!
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Attack class submarine - somewhat similar to Project-75I in ambition and scope. Also very controversial. However it has done a few things right:
1. The contract has been signed. No paper tiger this.
2. Based on an existing design (Barracuda) and to that extent project risk is minimized despite being a unique and world beating design.
3. Clear use case for an ocean going SSK translated to a project meant to achieve that goal.
4. Large order size (12)
1. The contract has been signed. No paper tiger this.
2. Based on an existing design (Barracuda) and to that extent project risk is minimized despite being a unique and world beating design.
3. Clear use case for an ocean going SSK translated to a project meant to achieve that goal.
4. Large order size (12)
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
The Oz sub programme is on the brink of being sunk. The review going on will in all probability deliver a verdict of scuttling the overambitious sub project. Strong warnings for our P-75I prog. too.
Some reasons.Design flaws,trying to turn a nuclear sub into a diesel one.Battery tech that would be obsolete by the time the first sub arrived. The cretinous idea of putting US tech into a French sub as they don't " talk" to each other. Finally, the cost.From $50 B Oz it kept skyrocketing to around $150 B Oz,with even that figure most likely to be surpassed. Our v.ambitious P-75I prog. must be reviewed esp. in the light of our delayed,cost-increased Scorpene non- AIP boats of which only the 3rd. is to be commissioned right now.
The IN needs large numbers of cost-effective subs for the IOR littorals.A parallel SSN programme and SSGN Akula leases will enable us to operate outside the IOR with true blue water capability. The P-75 I should concentrate on SSK ops primarily given the large number of Chink and Paki subs anticipated in the coming years. Following the OZ example would be an unmitigated disaster.
Some reasons.Design flaws,trying to turn a nuclear sub into a diesel one.Battery tech that would be obsolete by the time the first sub arrived. The cretinous idea of putting US tech into a French sub as they don't " talk" to each other. Finally, the cost.From $50 B Oz it kept skyrocketing to around $150 B Oz,with even that figure most likely to be surpassed. Our v.ambitious P-75I prog. must be reviewed esp. in the light of our delayed,cost-increased Scorpene non- AIP boats of which only the 3rd. is to be commissioned right now.
The IN needs large numbers of cost-effective subs for the IOR littorals.A parallel SSN programme and SSGN Akula leases will enable us to operate outside the IOR with true blue water capability. The P-75 I should concentrate on SSK ops primarily given the large number of Chink and Paki subs anticipated in the coming years. Following the OZ example would be an unmitigated disaster.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
Yeah review the Project 75I and buy outdated Russian junk
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
If only the peddling of Russian wares were not so blatantly shameless, there would be merit in taking this discussion forward.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
This thread started in 2014 with the name "It begins". Now in 2021 nothing happens. This in spite of the very good Defense Minister like Parrikarji. Shows how bad our systems and procedures. If this happens to Indian Navy which has the best record of development of indigenous systems.
Our sucess in missile development shows that we can achieve anything provided money and time is spent in a focus manner. That is lacking in this case. Go alone. Spend money and man power and we can get best of the systems in time. There is no other way/.
Our sucess in missile development shows that we can achieve anything provided money and time is spent in a focus manner. That is lacking in this case. Go alone. Spend money and man power and we can get best of the systems in time. There is no other way/.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
+1e+06Nihat wrote:If only the peddling of Russian wares were not so blatantly shameless, there would be merit in taking this discussion forward.
Re: Project 75I - It Begins
With the INS Karanj set the to join the navy on 10th of March, the 4th sub in sea trails, 5th in harbour trials and the last 6th Vagsheer is advanced stage of final fitment, the time to order an additional 2-3 Scorpene subs is now. Especially as the DRDO AIP unit is also coming along the new order for 2-3 subs can be planned from day 1 with the AIP unit. Some minor design changes can also be made, if required, to offset the data leak fiasco.
Maybe a design change to accommodate the Varunastra torpedo can also be considered. In future the Brahmos NG can also potentailly be launched the torpedo tubes.
Letting the assembly line idle now with the P75I still some years away from starting production, would be criminal.
Also, get the Italians to co-operate a little more on the Augusta Westland case and lift the ban on importing the Black Shark torpedoes. For 6 subs minimum 108 torpedoes would be required, assuming 18 for each sub. This would be a decent order for a struggling Italian economy.
Maybe a design change to accommodate the Varunastra torpedo can also be considered. In future the Brahmos NG can also potentailly be launched the torpedo tubes.
Letting the assembly line idle now with the P75I still some years away from starting production, would be criminal.
Also, get the Italians to co-operate a little more on the Augusta Westland case and lift the ban on importing the Black Shark torpedoes. For 6 subs minimum 108 torpedoes would be required, assuming 18 for each sub. This would be a decent order for a struggling Italian economy.