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Project 75I - It Begins

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Austin
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 21 Oct 2017 20:22

Japan, Spain Out of Race to Construct Six Diesel-Electric Subs for India

The Indian Navy issued a request for information (RFI) on July 19 to six global firms including Japan’s Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, as well as Spain’s Navantia. They were to respond by October 15, 2017 but the Spanish and Japanese firms did not do so. The firms from Russia, France, Germany, and Sweden are now left in the competition for the project.

"The Indian Navy had asked in its document to provide operational details of the proven product. So, the companies from Japan & Spain do not qualify for the project," Commodore Ranjit B Rai (retired), Indian Navy told Sputnik.


Commodore Anil Jai Singh, former Indian Navy officer and vice president of Indian Maritime Foundation told Sputnik that India’s strategic partnership model, which stipulates the transfer of technology (ToT), has not gone down well with Japan, unlike other friendly countries.


The Indian Navy is expected to issue the request for proposal for the project only after 2019 and if everything goes according to plan, it will take another seven to eight years for the submarines to be finally available to the Indian Navy.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 21 Oct 2017 20:27

The Spanish variant of the Scorp. had a major design flaw mentioned some time ago.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 22 Oct 2017 04:42

All of Germany's submarines are currently down
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/ ... ntly-down/

The U-33, U-34 and U-36 submarines are seen at the
Eckerfoerde German Navy base Oct. 10, 2016.
Morris MacMatzen/Getty Images)


Image

srai
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srai » 22 Oct 2017 07:53

Cybaru wrote:^^^
Why does a seller care how we use our subs! All they care for is either making money or sharing their cost burden. When was the last time Sony didn't sell you a play-station because you should study more?? :)

Defense export is different matter than consumer electronics. The exporters US, EU, Russia, etc all have their own conditions for usage, maintenance, training, and other treaties. No one gives the importer "free-use". There are always conditions and threats of sanctions in order to force compliance. Import creates a cycle of dependency that is hard to break out of.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 23 Oct 2017 03:00

Saab eyes smaller, larger versions of A26 submarine design in hunt for export orders
https://twitter.com/R_Wall/status/903156093974695936

Image

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kashi » 23 Oct 2017 06:25

Austin wrote:"The Indian Navy had asked in its document to provide operational details of the proven product. So, the companies from Japan & Spain do not qualify for the project," Commodore Ranjit B Rai (retired), Indian Navy told Sputnik.


What does "provide operational details of the proven product." mean and why companies from Japan and Spain do nto qualify?

srai
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srai » 23 Oct 2017 06:28

Kashi wrote:
Austin wrote:"The Indian Navy had asked in its document to provide operational details of the proven product. So, the companies from Japan & Spain do not qualify for the project," Commodore Ranjit B Rai (retired), Indian Navy told Sputnik.


What does "provide operational details of the proven product." mean and why companies from Japan and Spain do nto qualify?


:rotfl:

No boats on offer (or being talked about) would qualify under the "operational details of the proven product" stipulation :wink: All are more or less new SSKs under development.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 23 Oct 2017 08:29

Only the Japanese and Russians have a proven product. (Philip saar, take a bow !!!!!!!!)
If the Germans were asked to display a proven product, they would be unable to do so either, all their 6 U-212s are non-functional.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Bart S » 23 Oct 2017 08:47

Gagan wrote:Only the Japanese and Russians have a proven product. (Philip saar, take a bow !!!!!!!!)
If the Germans were asked to display a proven product, they would be unable to do so either, all their 6 U-212s are non-functional.


The German subs are non-functional because they are all in repairs or overhaul (that is delayed by lack of spares reserves due to cost cutting), and not because the product itself is flawed (as is the case with the Spanish version of the French sub). An important distinction to make.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srin » 23 Oct 2017 09:03

The P75I is same as P75, there is no "I" component in this. Given that this is in RFI stage still and it has all hallmarks of MMRCA, we still have time to design a more localized Scorpene or reverse-engineer a Kilo and get it in production before the deal concludes.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 23 Oct 2017 09:07

I am surprised that the Germans don't have any U-209s in service.
For a nation that size, they have a fleet of 6 subs !

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Bart S » 23 Oct 2017 09:48

Gagan wrote:I am surprised that the Germans don't have any U-209s in service.
For a nation that size, they have a fleet of 6 subs !


The U209 was always a downscaled (but still potent) export model.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 23 Oct 2017 11:58

Egypt have just bought new U-209s.I ckd the cost of the variants.Strangely all U-boats are supposedly within $50M diff,around $550M+ a sub.Israeli Dolphins are more expensive with spl. features,actual costs not know as Germany is subsiding them for Issrael.Some say that they cost near $1B.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Sanjiv » 23 Oct 2017 12:29

South Korea has 7 U214s in service

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 23 Oct 2017 16:46

The Koreans have mastered building U209 and U214 and won an export order worth $1.1 billion from Indonesian Navy for 3 Upgraded version (1400 tons) of U209 submarines beating the French, Russian , Turkish and German competition who were in the fray with the original U209/214!!!

It has also built and inducted in its Navy 1800 ton derivative of U214 with AIP with capability to stay underwater for 2 Weeks.

It has now started work on 3000 ton submarine which will have vertical launch capabilities and equipped with AIP.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 23 Oct 2017 18:24

I am surprised South Korea is not aggressively bidding for selling the upgraded U209 to other countries. Having delivered 3 subs to Indonesia it has established its credentials and at $350 Million a pop it can easily compete and even beat the Kilo in securing export orders.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 23 Oct 2017 19:25

The Germans have agreed to sell 3 additional Dolphins to Israel for close to $1 BN each :roll: :roll: :roll:. On the other hand looks like the Aussies have been taken for a royal ride with the shortfin barradcuda unless their ultimate aim is to convert some of the boats into nuke Barracudas. The German offer was half of what they are paying for the Shortfin.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Chinmay » 23 Oct 2017 20:32

Will wrote:The Germans have agreed to sell 3 additional Dolphins to Israel for close to $1 BN each :roll: :roll: :roll:. On the other hand looks like the Aussies have been taken for a royal ride with the shortfin barradcuda unless their ultimate aim is to convert some of the boats into nuke Barracudas. The German offer was half of what they are paying for the Shortfin.


The new Dolphins will cost somewhere between 1.7- 2 billion for 3 submarines. See Here. Additionally, those subs are subsidised by the Germans.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 23 Oct 2017 20:40

The way south korea built its sub building capabilities, to eventually branch out into customizing the designs it built, and now to building its own designs. This is the exact route that nations need to take.
India should have never stopped after building those U209s, but I have to complement the netas and babus who royally effed up everything.
These guys have been bribetakers par excellence - but will not think twice and scuttle domestic capabilities at the drop of the hat. Why would they not, it gave them more excuse to import in the future too no?

WRT Defence Ministers - some of the great lords we've had, OMG! They did everything they could to destroy India's Mil-Industrial complex by delaying, scuttling important programs. Makes one wonder, why they were sent to be Defence Ministers? Perhaps to reign in the Military and use procurement to fill the coffers via bribes

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 23 Oct 2017 20:44

The Germans subsidized the Dolphins, because their companies had supplied equipment to Iraq, which helped improve Saddam Hussain's missiles. Those missiles rained down on Israel.
Israel made it a point to remind Helmut Kohl, the then Chancellor about this, and Germany gave the first 2 subs free, and gave 50% off on the 3rd.
The second line of 3 subs was paid in full by Israel.
Helmut Kohl gave a grant to revive the sub building industry and had them build the Dolphin first series off of that

It is believed that the Israelis deploy a few cruise missile based 200 KT warheads on these subs.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Bart S » 23 Oct 2017 21:29

Vips wrote:I am surprised South Korea is not aggressively bidding for selling the upgraded U209 to other countries. Having delivered 3 subs to Indonesia it has established its credentials and at $350 Million a pop it can easily compete and even beat the Kilo in securing export orders.


What is the fully local component of the South Korean version? Do they still buy the control/automation subsystems from the Germans? Weapons systems? What about the MTU diesel engines that reportedly are way ahead of any other alternatives (there are only a couple of alternatives, French and Russian basically).

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 24 Oct 2017 01:11

Per Wikipedia, the power source is MTU Diesel Engine and Siemens electric motor.
It is surprising Germany is allowing Korea to compete for Submarine orders and it is losing business as happened with contract to supply for the Indonesian Navy.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Thakur_B » 24 Oct 2017 07:06

Philip ji will go home and sacrifice a black goat to the statue of Rodina, his prayers have been answered :rotfl: . This competition is for the Russians to lose.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 24 Oct 2017 07:34

There is a strong affinity for Russian boats in the Indian sub community. With the Navy wanting a BrahMos plug, expect a 90% probability that Project 75I will be an Amur boat with a DRDO AIP plug.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 24 Oct 2017 18:25

What about a U-214? Or even a U-216?
I won't discount the abilities of the Germans, or the depth of India's pockets

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 24 Oct 2017 18:49

We will need to placate the Russians and throw some orders their way to get other hot items not available from anywhere else.So if the FGFA contract does not happen we will buy Russian submarines or additional MIG/SU.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 25 Oct 2017 02:08

With Prime Minister Abe winning a resounding re-election, the Soryu could be back in the mix. Don't shoot me ok, I am allowed to dream :)

Japan: Indian Navy's best partner
http://www.asianage.com/opinion/oped/25 ... rtner.html

Asian Age is not allowing me to do cut-and-paste. Sorry.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2017 10:31

OZ's new boats to be should be called instead "Short-changed Barracudas" instead! Liek ous Scorpenes,with the sting in the tail (price),so too have the wizrads of Oz got taken to the cleaners. Already there are growing voices in Oz pointing out the flaws in the deal. Anyway,we need a boat that is firstly superior to our Kilos,which are still excellent boats being built and bought worldiwde,and if Amur claims that this boat has better quieting and sonar detection sev. times more than Kilos,also coming in at least around a Kilo-2s price,it will stand a good chance odf being selected esp. as whichever boat wins,the AIP system will be that of the DRDO. Either a BMos plug or the swift development of BMos-L ,which can be fired from the tubes added to the boat as unique armament not to be available on other rival boats would make it a no-contesto.

Here is a v.good report on Russian sensors other than sonar,which one sees feature don Ru N-subs in particular. The Akulas have them but signiificantly,our Chakra dos not have them and has her tubed for decoys also plated.These can be seen above the main tubes at the bow.
Incidentally Sov. subs use silver anodes at the base of the screw which also has small strakes/fins meant to counter wake homing torpedoes.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... onar-soks/
How the Soviet Union Snooped Waters for Enemy Subs—Without Sonar
Newly declassified documents show that even the most secretive submarines leaves a trail.

USS Simon Bolivar in 1991.
U.S. Navy
In the late 1980s, the Soviet Union claimed a feat many military experts thought impossible. K-147, a Victor-class nuclear-powered attack submarine, secretly followed the trail of a U.S. boomer (most likely the USS Simon Bolivar) in an underwater game of chase that continued for six days.

U.S. observers at the time thought the Soviets lacked the tech for effective sonar, at least in comparison to the capabilities of the U.S. and its NATO allies. Now, a newly declassified CIA report shows how hunter submarines like the K-147 went on secret missions to track American subs without using sonar at all.

The CIA's Directorate of Science & Technology produced the report on Soviet Antisubmarine Warfare Capability in 1972, but it was declassified only this summer. Even forty-five years on, lines, paragraphs, and even whole pages are redacted. A lengthy portion about Soviet technology under development gives details never previously revealed about devices with no Western equivalents. While NATO were concentrating almost all their efforts on sonar, the Russians created something else entirely.

WHY SONAR IS KING

Seawater blocks radio waves. So radar, while effective on the surface, is useless underwater. Sound waves, on the other hand, travel better through water than they do through air, and as early as WWI they were put to work finding submarines.

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Sonar comes in two basic types. There's active sonar, which sends out 'pings' that are reflected by the target, making it an underwater version of radar. Passive sonar, on the other hand, is based on sensitive listening devices that can pick up sound from a sub's engines or propeller—and unlike active sonar, it does not give away your position. Depending on conditions, sonar can find a submarine from many miles away and in any direction.

The U.S. and its allies developed sophisticated sonar systems, which soon became so effective that other methods of detection were left behind or forgotten. For decades, non-acoustic methods were considered inferior for being limited in range and reliability compared to sonar. "It is unlikely any of these methods will enable detection of submarines at long ranges," concludes a 1974 intelligence report.

In the USSR, it was a different story. The Soviets were hampered by primitive electronics and struggled to make sonar work at all. So instead they developed other weirdly clever means of submarine detection.

ENTER SOKS

On such method highlighted in the report is the Soviet's mysterious SOKS, which stands for "System Obnarujenia Kilvaternovo Sleda" or "wake object detection system." This device, fitted to Russian attack submarines, tracks the wake a submarine leaves behind. SOKS is actually visible in photos of Russian subs as a series of spikes and cups mounted on external fins.

The Soviet claim of following subs without sonar sounded like typical Russian bluster, but without knowing how (or whether) SOKS worked, a realistic assessment was impossible. The Pentagon has classified this entire area of research and scientists simply didn't talk about it. Rumors out of Russia about SOKS have been inconsistent and often contradictory, with some saying SOKS measured changes in water density, or detected radiation, or even used a laser sensor.

What the West knew for sure was that SOKS gear first appeared on K-14, a November-class sub, in 1969. Since then, subsequent versions with codenames like Colossus, Toucan, and Bullfinch have appeared on every new generation of Soviet and Russian attack submarines, including the current Akula and forthcoming Yasen class.

According to these newly declassified documents, the old rumors were accurate in one way – the Soviets did not develop just one device, but several. One instrument picked up "activation radionuclides," a faint trail left by the radiation from the sub's onboard nuclear power plant. Another tool was a "gamma ray spectrometer" that detects trace amounts of radioactive elements in seawater.

"The Soviets had reportedly had success detecting their own nuclear submarines [several words redacted] with such a system," the document says.

The report also describes how submarines leave behind a cocktail of chemicals in their wake. Sacrificial anodes that prevent corrosion leave a trail of zinc in the water. Minute particles of nickel flake off the pipes circulating seawater to cool the reactor. The system that makes oxygen for the crew leaves behind hydrogen that's still detectable when dissolved in seawater. Together these chemical traces may measure only a few tenths of a part per billion, but sophisticated equipment can find them.

And as you'd expect, a nuclear reactor also leaves behind tons of heat. According to the report, a large nuclear submarine requires "several thousand gallons of coolant a minute". This water, used to take heat from the reactor, may be 10 degrees Celsius warmer than the surrounding seawater, creating a change in the water's refractive index—a change that's detectable with an optical interference system.
And the Soviets did exactly that.

"A localization system based on this technique, capable of detecting wakes up to several hours after the passage of a submarine, could theoretically be built now," says the report, though it was not known for sure if the Russians had done so.

*(some years ago it was revealed that the US/West had alllegedly developed a sat sysetm of detecting sub wakes on the surface of the ocean from space.No idea what's happened since).

SEPARATING FACT FROM FICTION

While many of these techniques had been suggested before, there was no indication of which ones were theoretical and which ones were actually used.

"This report lends a lot of credibility to submarine detection systems that many still believe are little more than myths," defense analyst Jacob Gunnarson told Popular Mechanics. Previously, a 1994 U.S. study found it doubtful whether submarine wakes could be detected, stating that "whether or not hydrodynamic phenomena are exploitable is open to question."

"THIS REPORT LENDS A LOT OF CREDIBILITY TO SUBMARINE DETECTION SYSTEMS THAT MANY STILL BELIEVE ARE LITTLE MORE THAN MYTHS."
The sensors would not simply say "here is a sub," but would generate a stream of numerical data. Picking out the signature of a submarine from the background noise in the data takes some computing power, and the report notes that, in the 70s, the Soviets were far behind in this area. These days the Russians can acquire commercial machines thousands of times more powerful than any they had then, and that may have given SOKS a major boost.

The report shows that even in 1972 intelligence agencies were aware of how U.S. subs might be tracked. Countermeasures surely would have been put in place since then, such as reducing the chemical and radioactive trails, which is probably why it took 45 years for this document to be brought to light.

What Makes Submarines So Quiet?
Still, new versions of these technologies are far more capable than their water-snooping forebears. Recent scientific papers suggest the Chinese are now investigating new submarine tech, and even the U.S. Navy and DARPA have started to take an interest in wake tracking, suggesting that the tech isn't quite as inferior as previously thought.

Whether Russians can still stealthily follow submarines, or if the U.S. found a way to foil them, is impossible to know. We'll probably have to wait another 45 years for the [heavily redacted] answe

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2017 10:42

How good the Kilo-2 is,displayed its tricks recently in the Meditt. launching Kalibir missiles at ISIS and avoiding detection from wetsern naval forces.
http://www.news.com.au/technology/a-rus ... 1c36006ac0
A Russian submarine’s recent antics have revived a Cold War fear
A TENSE chase through the Mediterranean has revealed how rattled the US and NATO were by a cheeky Russian ploy.

Jamie Seidel
News Corp Australia NetworkOCTOBER 24, 2017
The High-Tech Hunt for Russian Submarines

THE Russian submarine did exactly what it was built to do.
And that’s what has NATO worried.
The diesel-engined attack submarine Krasnodar crept through the blue waters of the Mediterranean towards the Black Sea. This was to become its new home.
But, on the way, it had a mission to do.
NATO knew the new submarine was passing by. And new submarines are items of keen interest.
How noisy is it? What are its unique sound signatures? How long can its batteries last? Does it carry any new equipment?
Several specialist NATO anti-submarine frigates were following, determined to find out. The nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush put its sea-scanning Seahawk helicopters to the task. As was a flight of new P-8 Poseidon sub-hunting aircraft based in Italy.

The anti-submarine frigate HMS Somerset keeps company with the modified Kilo-class submarine Krasnodar as it made its way to Syria. NATO was keen to observe the submarine's fighting potential, and may have been given a more surprising demonstration than it expected. Picture: Royal Navy
The anti-submarine frigate HMS Somerset keeps company with the modified Kilo-class submarine Krasnodar as it made its way to Syria. NATO was keen to observe the submarine's fighting potential, and may have been given a more surprising demonstration than it expected. Picture: Royal NavySource:Supplied
But the Russians weren’t going to play. The submarine had travelled on the surface — in plain sight — through the North Sea from Russia’s northern naval bases. A succession of NATO warships — including Britain’s HMS Somerset — kept a watchful eye on it, waiting for it to submerge.
It didn’t.
At least not until it reached Libya, where Russia’s Defence Ministry abruptly warned international airlines that it would be taking part in military exercises off the coast.
It was part of a sales-pitch to Egypt, and others, who are in the market for modern — quiet — conventionally powered submarines.
Then, out of the blue on May 29, a series of cruise missiles tore through the air towards targets around Syria’s besieged city of Palmyra.
They were Russian.
They came from the Krasnodar.
This changed everything.
It also posed a troubling question: who was hunting whom?
A screen capture of Russian Ministry of Defence footage claiming to show the submarine Krasnodar launching a cruise missile, while submerged, at targets in Syria earlier this year.
A screen capture of Russian Ministry of Defence footage claiming to show the submarine Krasnodar launching a cruise missile, while submerged, at targets in Syria earlier this year.Source:Supplied
GOING OFF-SCRIPT
Naval analyst and historian Dr Alexander Clarke says the cruise missile strike didn’t go to the usual Russian playscript.
At first it was a familiar game of cat-and mouse. The Russian submarine tried — but not too hard — to keep invisible. The US and NATO subhunters tried — but not too hard — to keep it in their sights.
Neither side wants to reveal all the tricks they have up their sleeve.
Then Krasnodar launched its cruise missiles at targets in Syria.
A screen capture of Russian Ministry of Defence footage purporting to show cruise missiles from the submarine Krasnodar striking targets near Palmyra, Syria, earlier this year.

“The Russians have usually ‘cheated’ in exercises with prearranged midpoint missile guidance updates from a ground unit, a surface ship, or a helicopter. This time it didn’t happen, which means she must have received far more accurate data. With all the world watching, the Russians must have been very sure that the everything would work.” Dr Clarke says.
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“More importantly, Krasnodar didn’t surface to communicate or to fire, which again has become fairly common practice over the last ten or fifteen years.”
Put simply, Krasnodar was operating on a warlike footing.
The submarine was trying to remain unseen. It was exposing itself — and its missiles — as little as possible to reduce the chances of detection.

But Krasnodar — and the Russian frigate Admiral Essen — was being observed.
The NATO frigate HMS Somerset and the Wildcat helicopter it carries reportedly moved up to see what was going on.
“However, the Russian commander is likely one of their newer breed, younger, slightly more aggressive, confident in his boat and crew,” Dr Clarke says.

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“Would he perhaps have been tempted to do some turnaround as fair game? This is what we are now hearing rumours about.”
Exactly what that “turnaround” was is unknown.
Did Krasnodar ‘vanish’? Did it make successful mock attack runs on NATO warships? Did it perhaps sit silent before surprising unsuspecting NATO ships with a loud sonar ‘ping’?
An anti-submarine MH-60S Sea Hawk helicopter from the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77) during a replenishment-at-sea in the Mediterranean Sea on June 21. It is likely to have been involved in the hunt for Krasnodar. Picture: US NAVY

The new phase of a deadly old Cold War game appears to have lasted for several weeks.
Notably, the game of cat-and-mouse was still panning out when a Syrian jet fighter was shot down by the USS George H.W. Bush’s F/A-18 aircraft on June 18.
Moscow threatened to shoot down US fighter aircraft in retaliation.
Five days later, the submerged Krasnodar fired another salvo of cruise missiles into Syria.
The USS George H.W. Bush was moving through waters south of Cyprus in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time.
“They were flexing their muscles,” Rear Admiral Kenneth Whitesell, commander of the USS Bush strike group, told the Wall Street Journal. He added that the launch was watched by a French frigate and US Navy aerial surveillance.
But had the hunters become the hunted?
“If everything had gone as normal it would not be getting any attention, but if Krasnodar did manage to pull some tricks …” Dr Clarke says.
Another view, taken by a Royal Navy helicopter, of the Krasnodar as it moved through the English Channel earlier this year. Picture: Royal Navy

RENEWED CAPABILITY
The Russian Kilo-class submarine is nothing new. It’s been around in some form or another since the 1980s.
But Krasnodar represents a significant evolution.
Moscow’s keen to export them for desperately needed hard currency, given the swath of sanctions that have been applied against the country since it invaded Crimea in 2014.
As such, it’s marketing Krasnodar and the submarines of its class as the quietest in the world.
Russian state media claims the submarine “was dubbed ‘black hole’ by NATO.”
“That’s twaddle,” says Dr Clarke. “But it’s probably the quietest Kilo, and all powered down running just on batteries in the noisy Mediterranean, that could start to cause worry — even for NATO.”
Dr Clarke says the design of Krasnodar is interesting, and appears to be very successful.
“And the Russians will not only build more for themselves, they’ll probably be building similar vessels for others. Vietnam, Algeria, India and Iran will all be interested in that capability ... and you can be sure China wants to match it.”
“With the likes of Krasnodar now having cruise missile capability, they are pretty much the kingpin of Russia’s sea denial/anti-access forces ... a mobile minefield which is also capable of precision strike. It’s what Australia wanted from the Collins class, Japan from the Soryu’s and Israel from the Dolphins. The difference is Russia seems to have got it and are confident enough to flaunt it.”
Russia plans to build 12 of the new ‘Yasen’ class of nuclear attack submarine.

And the Russians are building two other new designs.
Both are nuclear powered.
The Borei class are Russia’s new generation of ballistic missile submarines — the cornerstone and most survivable part of its nuclear arsenal.
The hunter class, called the Yasen, is intended to destroy US aircraft carriers like USS George H.W. Bush.
And the Wall Street Journal speculates one of these — the Kazan — may have secretly shadowed the USS George H.W. Bush and Britain’s newest aircraft carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth, during August exercises in the North Atlantic.
If true that presents a major step back towards the level of submarine activity that was a feature of the Cold War.
“This is something which Western navies, already visibly showing the strain of years of both constant high operation tempos and budget cuts, might find breaks them,” Dr Clarke says.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Manish_P » 25 Oct 2017 11:02

Philip wrote:How good the Kilo-2 is,displayed its tricks recently in the Meditt. launching Kalibir missiles at ISIS and avoiding detection from wetsern naval forces.


and did they do it ?

From the article...

The submarine had travelled on the surface — in plain sight — through the North Sea from Russia’s northern naval bases. A succession of NATO warships — including Britain’s HMS Somerset — kept a watchful eye on it, waiting for it to submerge.
:)

The Russian submarine tried — but not too hard — to keep invisible. The US and NATO subhunters tried — but not too hard — to keep it in their sights.
:D

The submarine was trying to remain unseen. It was exposing itself — and its missiles — as little as possible to reduce the chances of detection.
But Krasnodar — and the Russian frigate Admiral Essen — was being observed. The NATO frigate HMS Somerset and the Wildcat helicopter it carries reportedly moved up to see what was going on.
:lol:

Five days later, the submerged Krasnodar fired another salvo of cruise missiles into Syria.
The USS George H.W. Bush was moving through waters south of Cyprus in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time.
“They were flexing their muscles,” Rear Admiral Kenneth Whitesell, commander of the USS Bush strike group, told the Wall Street Journal. He added that the launch was watched by a French frigate and US Navy aerial surveillance.
:rotfl:

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2017 21:38

It performed a few tricks and a public demo of its capabilities where even western journos were invited aboard an RU warship to watch the missile launches from two Kilos!

Had it been an RU -NATO spat you can bet your last euro that the RU subs would have never been seen on the surface.This was a demo to the global community of the capabilities of the RU navy.They did the biz and Kilos played an important part in the conflict.There are zilch NATO conv. subs that have the 2000+ land attack capabilities of the Kilo.They do not even have the 300km range of MTCR range restricted Klubs that we possess which one is sure in swift time will have their range similarly extended now that the MTCR does not apply to
us.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 25 Oct 2017 22:01

Rakesh wrote:With Prime Minister Abe winning a resounding re-election, the Soryu could be back in the mix. Don't shoot me ok, I am allowed to dream :)

Japan: Indian Navy's best partner
http://www.asianage.com/opinion/oped/25 ... rtner.html

Asian Age is not allowing me to do cut-and-paste. Sorry.


Japan is certain to make a comeback if the "mother ? " of all sub deals goes the way of MRCA and boils down to a G to G direct acquisition !!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 25 Oct 2017 22:10

Philip wrote:Cost factor and other performance reqs. being almost equal will be the deciding factor. The performance key will be AIP/silencing. What weapons the boats will carry another key factor.The IN appear to want the boat to be the "poor man's N-sub" despite possessing N-boats! This will push up the price significantly.I feel that we should trim our PMNS reqs. somewhat since we already operate and plan to build more N-boats.The P-75Is should be very capable HUK boats,able to prosecute both AIP conv. subs as well as N-boats,armed with a variety/options of anti-sub weaponry (ASW Klub,long-endurance and WG ASW torpedoes,Shkval rocket torpedoes and other Klub/BMos-L tube-launched variants),depending upon the mission. In an exercise some months ago,an IN Kilo reportedly got the better of a USN LA class N-sub.That speaks for itself.We need around 18-24 + conv. AIP boats in the inventory and around 18 N-subs (6 SSBNs,6-8 SSNs and 4+ SSGNs).The Chinese will have 80+ and the Pakis 12+ post 2020.The IN will need to sanitise the IOR and have permanent sub patrols in the ICS to counter any Chin mischief. The no. of Chinese bases in the IOR planned and existing is only increasing. Therefor numbers of subs is critical,why the P-75I must also come in at reasonable cost.

The foll. report on Qs being asked about the OZ mega-sub acquisition from DCNS is worth reading esp. for the In that it does ntot suffer similar pitfalls.
The Qs mainly about the proposed "pump-jet" tech for non-N boats.years ago the Sovs. also tried a pump-jet syetm on a Kilo sub but it was never replicated.

Questions surround Australia's new submarine fleet's ultra-stealth propulsion technology
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-19/n ... ed/9058858
Xcpt:
Experiments 'went nowhere'

Defence analyst Andrew Davies of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute said pump jets were designed to be used in nuclear submarines, not the conventionally powered boats Australia would use.

Explained: Australia's submarine requirements

With the winning bidder for Australia's next fleet of submarines announced, attention turns to how DCNS will meet Australia's high endurance requirements.
"There is a real question about how you marry a pump-jet with a conventional submarine," he told AM.
"The couple of experiments over the years that countries have done where they tried to put a pump jet on conventional submarines went nowhere."
"It's tempting to think this was example of an engineer thinking in public," he said of Mr Billig's comments.


some one did point out that pump jet propulsion requires much higher sustained power supply than by conventional means? .. a larger sub with pump jet propulsion will almost certainly need a nuke reactor !! :mrgreen: ..wont be too surprised if the Aussies were taken for a ride by the french who will most likely propose adding a nuke reactor that will double the price for each sub :D

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arvin » 25 Oct 2017 22:40

Rakesh wrote:With Prime Minister Abe winning a resounding re-election, the Soryu could be back in the mix. Don't shoot me ok, I am allowed to dream :)

Japan: Indian Navy's best partner
http://www.asianage.com/opinion/oped/25 ... rtner.html

Asian Age is not allowing me to do cut-and-paste. Sorry.


Seems progress of US2 planes deal.
Doubt it is for subs. I feel Russia will win this one.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 26 Oct 2017 01:00

Gagan wrote:What about a U-214? Or even a U-216?
I won't discount the abilities of the Germans, or the depth of India's pockets


There was talk that the German AIP tech was what the IN really wants.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 26 Oct 2017 01:04

For Soryu, per reports earlier any talk of technology transfer will be the deal beaker. Japanese are interested only if it is a G2G deal.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 26 Oct 2017 02:26

Vips wrote:For Soryu, per reports earlier any talk of technology transfer will be the deal beaker. Japanese are interested only if it is a G2G deal.


That doesn't make sense for us. Perhaps we can just acquire the LIBs for whatever we make. That is the unique bit that's impressive, everything else is probably same same.

We should court everyone that makes LIBs and work towards certifying them for marine applications. Panasonic/Tesla should be on top of the list to acquire 1 MW worth of cells per year. That's all we need at the moment.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 26 Oct 2017 04:12

Cybaru wrote:
Vips wrote:For Soryu, per reports earlier any talk of technology transfer will be the deal beaker. Japanese are interested only if it is a G2G deal.


That doesn't make sense for us. Perhaps we can just acquire the LIBs for whatever we make. That is the unique bit that's impressive, everything else is probably same same.

We should court everyone that makes LIBs and work towards certifying them for marine applications. Panasonic/Tesla should be on top of the list to acquire 1 MW worth of cells per year. That's all we need at the moment.


dont know if thats so simple as certifying tesla s Li b tech for subs !!!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 26 Oct 2017 06:08

It's not easy after speaking to some in the know, but doable.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 26 Oct 2017 12:03

Germ. AIP tech: That may've been earlier .The last report on AIP said that since the DRDO AIP system was making excellent progress,all P-75I subs would have the DRDO module.However,a few months before,there was another report saying that the DRDO and Ru were discussing AIP collaboration.Only those with access to "red tape" will know the true current picture. What we must avoid though is becoming yet again the last in line to acquire wetsern sub tech. Malaysia have been using Scorpenes for many years now ,Pak French MESMA AIPs on their Agosta 90-Bs and SoKo and others have been operating more advanced German U-boats (212,214) for over a decade now.Little point in us acquiring the same tech now in its "middle age".

Secondly,none of the western/German boats possess LRCM capability like Ru Kilo-2s,with Kalibir missiles with ranges of 2000km+None have even supersonic anti-ship missiles with 300km range like Klubs (supersonic terminal homing warhead) or BMos. Even sub-sonic Exocets and sub-Harpoons have ranges of not more than 200 KM. Therefore any designs NOT possessing these capabilities would be looked at as inferior by the IN esp. after the Syrian spat where Kilos have been happily launching Kalibirs ad nauseum against ISIS with pin point accuracy.

PS:Germany and Israel sign a $2.3B deal for just 3 subs.These subs are also supposedly subsidised by Germany and some estimates are closer to $1B as the actual cost of each.One could get 3 Kilo-2s for that price.The swift signing of the deal is also meant to deter further investigations.criticism of the scandal hit deal for earlier subs,traced back right to Bibi's table.By this signing Bibi hopes to avoid further investigation into his role in the same.The British dropped an SFO investigation into BAe bribes for the Saudis for mil aircraft. The govt. simply said that it would be detrimentla to the clsoe ties it was having with the nation in Q! The same tactic may be used by Bibi and co. in this case too.

https://guardian.ng/news/world/israel-g ... netanyahu/
Israel, Germany sign submarine deal: Netanyahu


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