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Project 75I- It Begins

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Will
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 17 Jul 2015 00:11

Crikey.. I just googled for Katupalli shipyard and the pics that came up were amazing. That sure looks state of the art. Also L&T already has in house design teams. Looks like they could build the next aircraft Carrier. The second sub line should definitely go to L&T now that Pipavav is getting the Frigate order.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srin » 17 Jul 2015 09:50

JTull wrote:Why is that? How else do you build capability? Most of the space and defense production gains recently have been due to involvement of 100s of private players. If you want large independent integrators then you need to make an investment.

It is yesteryear's' philosophy that public sector enterprises get free ToTs and on the platter union-appeasing orders to guarantee delayed and over-budget deliveries, while private players must be cheapest, fastest integrators without any ToT and with extensive penalty clauses built in.


The private entity's interest is profits (technically, to make money for its shareholders). For that they have to commensurate risk, no ?
They have to have invested in the shipyard with all the assorted infrastructure (drydock, cranes etc), they have to have brought on-board people who have proven skills in ship-building. They have to build that with their capital. They have to take the risk to reap the profits.
To present an extreme example, if Infy bids for building subs locally (with the assurance that after they get the contract, they'll acquire land and build the shipyard), should they be given a chance ? I don't think so. It would be extremely risky for IN to stake its future on such risky vendors.
That's the filtering part - filter out those who are risky.

The other part is fairness. If you have multiple eligible companies, which one do you pick ? How do you decide to favor L&T over Pipavav for instance ? So there has to be an open bidding and you go for the cheaper one with better design.

Level-playing field doesn't mean just because the Govt has invested in PSU shipyard infrastructure, the private shipyards can also demand the same. Govt can invest, can set the profit margin level in PSU shipyards as its primary shareholder. Level-playing field means that private shipyards can compete with the PSU shipyard for contracts - that is all. They don't gets reservations.


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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karan M » 01 Oct 2015 19:14

srin wrote:I beg to differ.

The private shipyards (or any private manufacturing) shouldn't get anything on the platter. It is hard-nosed commercial negotiation - pure and simple.
Do they have the required facilities, working capital etc ?
Are their people skilled enough to build it and within given time-frame ?
Most important, how expensive is it to build it ?


Some private sector guys need a step ahead and on the platter whatever.. L&T and Tata SED especially. They have worked on far too many Indian def programs and deserve to be taken to the next level so they can contribute more.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 03 Oct 2015 14:11

Yes.I'm told that a major pvt. player is selling its excellent yard to another desi major for the same reason,no patronage from the GOI despite its ex. track record.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 03 Oct 2015 16:26

Philip wrote:Yes.I'm told that a major pvt. player is selling its excellent yard to another desi major for the same reason,no patronage from the GOI despite its ex. track record.


L&T ? .. too bad

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Vipul » 03 Oct 2015 20:12

I doubt L&T will sell its shipyard.Per news report L&T sold its port to the Adanis after de-linking the shipyard in Tamil Nadu.
Now that its has got the tracked howitzer deal, L&T will be even more of a serious player for manufacturing defence (and offensive) equipment.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arshyam » 03 Oct 2015 21:01

^^L&T is NOT selling the shipyard at Kattupalli. They are selling only the port operations to Adani.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby soumik » 08 Oct 2015 20:25

I just read the article by Philip in the Russian weapons thread where he says that the Indonesians are buying Kilos at the rate of 300m$/boat brought up a thought.
Should we scrap the never-ending song and dance about 75I and just buy 20 kilos with the 8Billion$ instead?
We could ask the Russians to build ten at PIPAVAV thereby imparting valuable training to the team there while Mazagon docks could partner with L&T and DRDO to develop our own SSK.
The Kilos would bring us the numbers we need for the coming decade at least thereby giving us more time to develop and build our own stuff.
What do you think?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 09 Oct 2015 09:16

^^^

If not trying to get the next "greatest" in P-75I, then why not just build more Scorpene SSKs but with more indigenous content? You can have more Indian shipyards involved for the follow-on six. ToT is already there (could get more) as well as trained manpower. Costs are known along with the build times--suppliers chain are established. Less project risk IMO.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 09 Oct 2015 11:03

I think P75I is going the Mk1->Mk1A route and it will be scorpene only. the klub can be used from TT, same as nirbhay.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gyan » 09 Oct 2015 13:28

We should concentrate only on SSNs

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kmkraoind » 09 Oct 2015 14:35

Why cant we consider non-nuclear Arihant for Project 75I. If we modify these subs for 60-day endurance, then we can squeeze space for AIP storage modules.
- We are building the hulls.
- Do not know about transmissions.
- Till our Sonors get matured, get imported one (preferably get Scropene once, albeit bigger pack).
- Till our Sonors get matured, get imported one.
- Any how optics are imported.
- Any how heavy torpedoes are imported.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prem » 09 Oct 2015 22:49

kmkraoind wrote:Why cant we consider non-nuclear Arihant for Project 75I. If we modify these subs for 60-day endurance, then we can squeeze space for AIP storage modules.
- We are building the hulls.
- Do not know about transmissions.
- Till our Sonors get matured, get imported one (preferably get Scropene once, albeit bigger pack).
- Till our Sonors get matured, get imported one.
- Any how optics are imported.
- Any how heavy torpedoes are imported.


Japanese were/are experimenting on some kind of wonder battery for their Subs as alternative to current AIP system. Arihant Hull and Nippon Battery Bal (juice/strength) may be good combination to work on.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_23370 » 09 Oct 2015 22:56

For SSK's scorpene or the similar S-80 would make logistic sense. Hopefully it can be modified to Nirbhay and Brahmos-M (if not VLS at least tubes).

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby soumik » 12 Oct 2015 19:04

http://armingindia.com/India%20May%20Ha ... ipyard.htm

Parrikar indicated that the government plans to hand over the responsibility of building six new conventional submarines for the Navy to an Indian private sector shipyard.



Interestingly, a panel set up by the Defense Ministry in October 2014 to identify Indian shipyards from among five public sector and three private sector shipyards, which can boast of the capability to build Project 75I submarines, has submitted its report in March this year recommending a few names. But a final call on the report's recommendations is yet to be taken.



As part of the new plan, India would like to continue honing the submarine building skills at the MDL by giving it orders for additional conventional submarines -- possibly three more -- by providing the vessels more technological edge such as Air Independent Propulsion, Land Attack and Advanced Stealth, features that are contemporary and the best in the world.


Interesting tidbits in that article, P75I seems to have been increased to nine SSKs now with three additional Scorpene orders for MDL.
Also interesting to note that the six new boast will be built at a private yard.(Chotta bhai will prolly bag this one)

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Oct 2015 18:19

Soumik,the Kilo route isn't appealing to the IN hell bent upon a gold-plated conventional AIP sub,though that is one sure option to augment numbers. The Scorpenes (non-AIP) are already very expensive for a conventional boat and beggar the Q,why not an N-boat instead? That's why the plan for 6 SSNs has found favour.In the confusion in trying to identify the best conv. AIP boat,no one has a clue as to which is best until they've been seen in full for a few years from now. The chaotic Oz sub tender not yet decided is worth following. That's why it is far easier to get the nod for "extras" Scorpenes than a new weapon system.

I would've liked the IN to have pursued a design for a stretched Kilo with AIP and BMos. Or acquired a few Amurs.The Kirti (?) which was languishing at Vizag at HSL for about a decade could've been used as an experimental trials boat for BMos.For a major navy like ours,we have not experimented enough with UW warfare and pursued enough by building experimental platforms.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 13 Oct 2015 18:28

What about the new Swedish submarine being developed as a successor to the Gotland ?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2015 18:36

is it funded and getting built ? I thought the swedes had to fight hard just to pry loose kockums from HDW and rehire the staff for a start.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 13 Oct 2015 18:47

yes ..seems like it is optimized for stealth from the "ground" up ..but kinda smallish in its present incarnation

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 13 Oct 2015 19:03

:mrgreen: they did kick out HDW .. actually they bolted the office and didn't let them enter literally.. the kockums tech was deemed sensitive and proprietary by the Swedish government

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 24 Oct 2015 13:20

Snippet on the Agosta from erm, Dawn

http://www.dawn.com/news/1213256/pakist ... n-the-deep

...

Well suited for Pakistan

Being a diesel-electric submarine (SSK), the Agosta 90B is well suited for the needs of the Pakistan Navy. Not only is the submarine cost-effective, it also costs a lot less than a nuclear-powered submarine. While nuclear submarines are not harmful for the crew, the cost of disposing of spent nuclear fuel is much higher and increases the operating cost manifold.

AIP-equipped submarines are much stealthier as well, while nuclear submarines have measures to reduce acoustic and magnetic signatures. The nature of the propulsion used (nuclear) makes them noisier, and more susceptible to be picked up by a variety of acoustic, magnetic and thermal sensors.

Tactically, the Agosta 90B has a distinct advantage in littoral waters, where marine life and the busy shipping lanes originating out of the Strait of Hormuz can easily camouflage the acoustic signature of the submarine.
....


Source aside, above sounds quite true, especially for the Arabian sea.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 24 Oct 2015 17:17

i guess the pump jet propelled nuclear submarines would fare better ?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_P » 24 Oct 2015 19:48


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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby jagga » 29 Oct 2015 14:02

INS Kalvari sea trials begin today: All you need to know about the attack submarine - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/explai ... n7eRg.dpuf
INS Kalvari, the first of six Scorpene diesel-electric attack submarines (SSKs) on order for the Indian Navy, will be set afloat at Mazagon Dockyard Ltd (MDL) in Mumbai on Thursday. On April 6, INS Kalvari was floated out in the presence of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. With today’s event, the sea trials of INS Kalvari will commence and are likely to continue for the next 10 months until the commissioning of the submarine. The vessel is scheduled to be commissioned in September 2016. - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/explai ... n7eRg.dpuf

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby pragnya » 11 Nov 2015 18:47

HDW shishumar class of subs have been trouble free and reliable. IIRC MDL built 2 of the subs before being terminated. it is understandable that skilled man power who were part of the production may have been lost but is it so difficult to train a new batch and build more HDW 209s based on the TOT we paid for? think of Dhanush Howitzer gun here. ofc it may need some handholding, consultation from the germans which can be paid off in addition to adding the latest sub systems and DRDO AIP. considering it would way way cheaper than a totally new sub part procured part built, isn't it wise to go this route?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 11 Nov 2015 19:38

I was talking to a veteran submariner,The sub is the way to go to dominate the IOR and deny any intruder.Surface ships will be very vulnerable to growing detection and targeting capabilities.We need at least 24+ conventional subs plus 12-15 N-subs. This is the minimum.A good way to go is for 8-10 each of German,French and Russian conventional subs ,giving us the "best of the best",while developing our own N-sub capabilities including leasing of 3-4 Akulas from Russia,until we are able to master N-sub tech,which keeps on improving year by year. After a decade of operating the 3 conventional sub variants,we can determine whether one or more sub types should replace them from around 2030.

4 more new U-boats,eventually 8 to replace the 4 U-209s,8 Scorpenes and 8-10 Kilos-with a new Ru sub type to replace them,plus a dozen+ mini-subs will be needed both fro IOR and out of IOR ops.The PLAAN is to operate around 80 new subs around 2020.It can easily send in 12+ subs into the IOR on regular patrols post 2020. Add to that the number of Paki subs,which will reach 12+ and the INwill be hard pressed to counter this that. Ideally the entire sub fleet should be doubled as a priority,are meant for the srat. deterrent,plus some SSGNs/SSNs will be required to escort CBGs and protect the SSBNs.Russia is designing/building 2 new classes of attack boats ,one meant to protect the SSBNs and the other to replace the giant carrier-killer Oscars,with the same task. ideally 36 conventional/AIP boats with 12+ N-subs should be in the inventory.This figure should be achieved by 2030.An accelerated sub acquisition programme of 2 boats/yr will do the business. MDL,HSL and a pvt. yard,perhaps even two,with one building mini/midget subs,will ensure timely delivery.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Nov 2015 22:25

^ I think the IN has IOR control in mind but with smaller numbers and more capable conventional subs - very large diesel electrics @ about 4500+ tons, hence the Japanese Soryu route is being explored. The SMX-Ocean design by DCNS might be well worth looking at as a follow on to the Scorpene. Dump the Rafale and buy some Scorpenes off the shelf followed by the development of the SMX. This would be a good route. If a second line of SSKs is desired, more Kilos should be pursued since we already have so much experience with them..

The way I see it, there are three options - 1) more scorpenes and possible larger follow on from DCNS (SMX Ocean/Barracuda), 2) more Kilos, and 3)Soryu. Don't see the point of more U boats now.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 13 Nov 2015 23:57

Project-75I should be dropped.

Extend Project-75 run by another 6 units. Instead of a piecemeal purchase of another 2 kilos, build some more in India.

That will give you two parallel SSK lines from Western and Russian ecosystem.

Bear in mind that we have to build at least 10 more nuke boats in SSN/SSB, where we can apply our full creativity. :mrgreen:

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 16 Nov 2015 20:23

Its been years since the RFP for the P-75I has been "imminent". Maybe the MOD is going to scrap it altogether or they are waiting to see from where they can get the most help towards the SSN program and accordingly award the contract thought this would limit the competition to Russia and France.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 17 Nov 2015 00:18

Purchase design for the barracuda without the nuke (smx ocean) and have it as a follow on to the scorpene when they are done making 6/8/10 or whatever number we see fit. Make it in the same shipyard and continue DCNS working with them to get this out the door. First one is made, tested and delivered from france.

Work with Russia to get a small yasen class going like the reports say. Nuclear powered.

So three class of subs going forward
Scorpene with Ocean as follow on.
Mini-Yasen with russia
Our own line of Arhiant.
Akula leases will expire, so not counting them.

Retire the HDW and Kilo in 10/12 years from now.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 18 Nov 2015 09:24

IMO, P-75I should be Scorpene-I. The absorption of Scorpene ToT needs to be built upon. Probably a better way forward than acquiring yet another "superior" foreign design, which again will take more than decade to purchase and absorb. At that rate, India will never get around to building an indigenous SSK.

Scorpene-I:
  • Get additional ToT -> SUBTICS, diesel-electric propulsion, etc.
  • Indigenous Sonar -> USHUS
  • Indigenous AIP plug
  • Indigenous integrated combat system -> replace/augment SUBTICS
  • Modified hull design with weaponry bay/tubes that fit indigenous weaponry -> Brahmos-M, Nirbhay SLCM, Varunastra torpedo, decoys

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 19 Nov 2015 13:22

Take a dekko at the offers for the OZ sub requirement. 3 major manufacturers are in the running.The Japanese with the Soryu class,HDW with a new enlarged U-216 class and the French with a new class.8-10000km range is one req. The Soryu is the largest of the lot,the German U-boat around 300ft long ,the French boat a little larger.

But here is why the Scorpene line should end after the 6 boats as France will NOT sell India its cutting edge sub tech in its offer to OZ So guys,forget about anymore future subs from France or even extending the Scorpene line. We should instead acquire the latest conventional sub designs from both Russia and Germany.Build two lines (Russian to replace the Kilos eventually and German to replace the U-boats in service)) and around 2025,decide upon a new design which incorporates the best of the three nation sub-tech that we operate.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/french-subm ... 1447756099
17, 2015 5:28 a.m. ET
ADELAIDE, Australia—The French contender in a $20 billion contest to build Australia’s next undersea fleet said it won’t offer its cutting-edge design to other nations like India bulking up their underwater capabilities,


http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/1 ... n-adelaide

Submarine bidders to speak in Adelaide
The three groups bidding to build Australia's next fleet of submarines will come together for the first time to present details of their plans in a public forum in Adelaide.

Representatives from the Japanese, German and French groups will make presentations on Tuesday at the Submarine Institute of Australia conference.

It is likely to be their final chance to speak openly about their bids before the federal government's deadline for submissions in its competitive evaluation process.

"Given bids must be submitted by November 30, the conference is set to be the last chance for the proponents to publicly state their cases ahead of this deadline," Submarine Institute of Australia executive director David Nicholls said.

If successful the French plan to build a sub called the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A, which has been designed specifically for the Australian Navy.

It is 97 metres long and uses pump jet propulsion instead of conventional propellers.

The Japanese have proposed building a submarine based on the Soryu Class subs currently in service.

German group ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems has offered less information about its proposed design but has pointed to its experience in the industry, having built 160 subs since 1960, including 120 for export.

Tuesday's conference will also hear from recently appointed Federal Defence Minister Marise Payne.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/1 ... IFBgQQL.99

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 19 Nov 2015 16:57

Posting this here as it will have a bearing upon our P-75I concept.

When OZ first opened its doors to a foreign sub for the future,the expected deal was to have been thrown into the lap of the Japanese as a vitual fait accompli by the previous govt.The idea was for OZ to have a strategic military partnership with Japan,already a part of the US's military alliance in the Asia-Pacific. Oz however has a bitter memory about the Japanese during WW2. Nevertheless,with US prodding the deal was almost in the bag. The new govt. which unexpectedly has come into power is giving a fairer chance to the OZ navy to select a sub that suits its requirements and has opened the contest to the French and Germans too. An intense UW battle is going on (pun intended) for the lucrative $20B+ deal. In some respects,this deal reminds one of the IAF's MMRCA contest,where eventually,capability of the aircraft triumphed over a "strategic partnership" with the US.

How will this deal go? Japan has little experience of exporting its milware and both the Germans and French are opening their larders with juicy offers.The French have actually said that they would give OZ their latest sub-tech which they "wouldn't give India".This is an astonishing statement which should make the IN think a 100 times before thinking about extra Scorpenes or even French N-sub tech.
The new regime may not be as hot on the Japanese as the previous regime,but the US's bias is clearly in favour of the Japanese sub,since US combat systems are supposed to be fitted onto the new subs.

In the IN P-75I context,this sub deal and OZ sub ambitions must be taken into account.At the moment there is growing bonhomie between the two nations,but will it last? The bonhomie is purely China specific. Secondly,does the IN also need such a large conventional sub type.It will certainly be noisier and cost far more than even the ultra-expensive Scorpene,which is almost twice the cost of a new 636.3 Kilo. OZ needs larger conventional subs for greater range,endurance and ability to carry extra weaponry. It cannot operate an N-sub as it has had great difficulty in operating its Collins class diesel boats with limited manpower and technical skills to maintain and support the sub fleet.

The IN has quite rightly put its future in building and leasing a number of nuclear attack boats which are needed for protecting IN CBGs,IN SSBNs and carrying out offensive patrols in the ICS,Pacific and beyond.
What the IN desperately needs are numbers. It needs large numbers of hunter-killer boats to deal with the increasing number of Paki subs.With China's audacious claim to be able to establish a blockade of India using just 10 subs,and remember that many of these will be operating out of Gwadar,one can see the dimension of the problem facing the IN and its sub fleet.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karan M » 19 Nov 2015 19:03

srai wrote:IMO, P-75I should be Scorpene-I. The absorption of Scorpene ToT needs to be built upon. Probably a better way forward than acquiring yet another "superior" foreign design, which again will take more than decade to purchase and absorb. At that rate, India will never get around to building an indigenous SSK.

Scorpene-I:
  • Get additional ToT -> SUBTICS, diesel-electric propulsion, etc.
  • Indigenous Sonar -> USHUS
  • Indigenous AIP plug
  • Indigenous integrated combat system -> replace/augment SUBTICS
  • Modified hull design with weaponry bay/tubes that fit indigenous weaponry -> Brahmos-M, Nirbhay SLCM, Varunastra torpedo, decoys


Completely agree!

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2015 08:37

All the more reason why USHUS should be on P-75I...

In underwater battle, India 'annihilates' American n-submarine
...

An operation under the high profile naval exercise MALABAR, between the navies of India, USA and Japan, featured a simulated battle to hunt and destroy each other's submarines. Locked in this match were two prowlers, the INS Sindhudhvaj (S56), a Soviet-designed EKM class of conventional submarine and the USS City of Corpus Christi (SSN705), a nuclear-powered attack submarine which functions like a fighter plane - scramble and destroy enemy submarines and ships. The crew of both the vessels were asked to hunt the other down in a general area of the Bay of Bengal, based on 'available int'. They, subsequently dived.

Hours later, as they still searched the Americans were informed that the game was over already.

Unknown, they had been marked, tailed and suitably 'annihilated' by the 533mm torpedos 'fired' by their Indian counterparts from on board the INS Sindhudhvaj. What came as a clincher to the Indian side was the tool which detected the USS Corpus Christi - the 'made in India' Ushus SONAR (Sound Navigation and Ranging) which was recently installed. "The way it happens is that the Sindhudhvaj recorded the Hydrophonic Effect (HE) - simply put, underwater noise - of the nuclear powered submarine and managed to positively identify it before locking on to it. Being an exercise what did not happen was the firing," explained a naval officer. The HE thus captured can easily slide into the elaborate database that the any navy maintains for classifying and identifying foreign submarines. A US embassy spokesperson said, "We have no information on the results to share."
...

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Yagnasri » 29 Nov 2015 08:57

Provided it is true. The US Boat is LA class. Right?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 29 Nov 2015 15:04

With India's policy of spreading the pie around dont be surprised if the Germans get the 75I deal. Most of the powers have bagged major deals aside from the Brits and even they got the Hawk deal. Now Germany may not be a permanent member of the security council but they do carry a lot of heft in Europe. These days even more than Britain and France. So dont be surprised if they get the deal if it comes about.

srai
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2015 16:56

^^^

Maybe the Chinese need to be awarded the P-75I deal. That way all 5 permanent members of the security council are in the kitty ;)

Will
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Posts: 498
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 13 Dec 2015 19:04

It was last year around this time that it was said that a committee would evaluate shipyards for the P75I and submit a report in 6-8 weeks. There was hope that things would move forward at speed given the state of the submarine arm of the IN. Was just wishful thinking. Govts may change but things remain the same. One thing for DAC to clear a slew of proposals. It means nothing. Most don't even go to the CCS for clearance for ages.Even if the CCS clears something , nothing moves. More things change , more things remain the same. :- :cry:


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