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Project 75I - It Begins

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kit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 01 Feb 2018 23:40

Philip wrote:Titbit from the media.MDL is gearing itself up to have two lines to manufacture subs.What gives? Something is cooking.


2 conventional ? same or different ?

makes economic sense to have similar lines

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rishi_Tri » 02 Feb 2018 07:16

Will wrote:Its criminal that the second sub line hasn't been finalised till date. On the defence front am really disappointed with this govt. Thought they would move faster on projects and increase the defence budget. At the very least follow on orders for the scorpenes should be placed with tweaks to mitigate the signature due to the leaks. Get the French to pay for that incident.


OT but then -

In absolute orders for submarines, Arjun, Yes even I am disappointed. But this government has accomplished what was not done earlier - secured entry into MTCR, Wassenaar Arrangement, Australia Group. If exploited properly, shall help us bridge gaps wherever required, faster.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Gagan » 02 Feb 2018 09:13

I suspect and hope it is for:
1. Further orders for 3 scorpenes
2. Indian designed and built doubled hulled conventional submarine x 6 boats

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby yensoy » 02 Feb 2018 09:21

Philip wrote:Titbit from the media.MDL is gearing itself up to have two lines to manufacture subs.What gives? Something is cooking.


Is there physical space available? Something has to move out - maybe the ship assembly line?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 02 Feb 2018 09:45

yes there is no space there. all the drydocks occupy the main area and the navy is forced to park ships side by side in jettys not exactly ideal from damage control pov incase of a accident.

ideally the shipyard needs to move to navi mumbai shoreline for better expansion. I doubt more of the workers there live in South mumbai given the cost structure of the region, so they could be coming from north in long commuter rail rides to CST and Churchgate then taking a bus to work.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 02 Feb 2018 18:13

Titbit said that MDL is planning to have 2 llnes.I guess they don't want any pvt. entity like L&T to start building subs ...faster than them!

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 02 Feb 2018 18:50

MDL will have two lines instead of one lying waste for want of orders. With L&T and also Pipavav having capacity to build the submarines, i doubt it will be able to garner any meaningful numbers to keep both lines occupied/busy.
The govt will certainly strike a balance in distributing orders between the various Docks/Yards (Mumbai, Vishakapatnam) and the private Sector.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby JTull » 02 Feb 2018 21:32

2 lines at MDL will mean that L&T should get the LPD order. Otherwise, the govt will be thumbing its nose at the investment L&T has made. I'd hate to see chota bhai hold IN hostage.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby dinesh_kimar » 03 Feb 2018 15:42

^ Maybe one line for refit and maintenance of existing 209/ Scorpene so won't be parasitic of the new builds.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 04 Feb 2018 14:15

Positive dreaming is that the GOI has decided upon a crash programme to augment the sub fleet.How many of the 4 U-209s can be upgraded at all? The second line may be for that and possibly a G-2-G with the Germans as P-75I is taking aeons to approve for the procrastinators in the MOD/whoever.Kilos can't be tortured for a third refit, the oldest ones that is and we'd better start looking for their replacements right now as it will take usual IST, 3+ years to find one . No news too of the 6 SSNs.The budget doesn't show any signs of beefing up the N-sub inventory , but SSBN details are handled separately by the PMO and will not reflect in any open source info.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby JTull » 04 Feb 2018 15:18

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Maybe one line for refit and maintenance of existing 209/ Scorpene so won't be parasitic of the new builds.


Makes sense

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 10 Mar 2018 09:20

France to push for more submarines under Navy’s $8-b ‘Project 75 India’

France will be making a strong and fresh pitch for building additional submarines under the Navy’s P-75(I) or ‘Project 75 India’ programme for $8 billion after the successful induction of first Scorpene-class submarine into the Indian Navy in December last year.

Securing additional orders for French defence conglomerate Naval Group (formerly DCNS) is going to be the topmost agenda of their Defence Minister Florence Parly, who is accompanying President Emmanuel Macron in his maiden India visit starting on Saturday, sources told BusinessLine on condition of anonymity.

Parly is going to raise this issue with her Indian counterpart Nirmala Sitharaman during a meeting on Saturday after the summit-level bilateral talks between Macron and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, sources said.

Earlier in a letter to Sitharaman, the French Defence Minster had stated that commissioning of the first Scorpene submarine on December 4, 2017 by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd. in partnership with Naval Group was a “shining illustration of the exemplary nature of our technological and industrial cooperation” and that the French government and Naval Group are very keen to support the Indian Navy in making this programme a “big success”, sources said quoting the letter.

Parly also informed Sitharaman that the Naval Group has also responded favourably to the request for information (RFI), under Strategic Partnership (SP) Model, for the new P-75 (I) programme, sources added.

The P75 (I), which is a follow-on for $3.75 billion P75 or Project 75, was announced in October 2014. In 2016, the Navy issued a request for information to six global submarine makers to build six advanced submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology under the P75 (I) project.

Apart from the AIP technology, which enables the submarines to stay under water for a longer period, these proposed submarines will also have a vertical launch system. Additionally, a brand new cruise missile will be fitted as the main anti-ship missile.

Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Reliance Defence are the only two private shipyards that were short-listed to participate in the programme. They are likely to be contending for the project now under the SP policy.

Under P75 MDL and Naval Group had been engaged in making six Scorpene-class submarines under a transfer of technology arrangement since 2005. So far only the first boat – INS Kalvari – has been inducted into Navy’s fleet while two more – INS Khanderi and INS Karanj – are undergoing sea trials.

India has plans to build a fleet of 24 submarines for the navy. Currently, the Navy operates 14 conventional and two nuclear-powered submarines.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 10 Mar 2018 13:29

Was ckg out a pic of MDL, there appears to be a new large covered facility which could build subs.I think our U-209s which have some more life in them will be refitted at MDL, HSL will look after any remaining Kilo refits and repairs after completing one refit, apart from the N-subs being built .The Q is where will the 6 SSNs be built and the 75-I s? One possibility is at L& T's Katupalli yard.BAARC is closd by at Kalpakkam too, and since they are already makinv hulls for our SSBNs

Given the level of cooperation already with the SSBN programme and Akula leases it is most likely that our SSNs will share a lot of Ru tech aboard our Arihant class for the sake of commonality and cost effectiveness.
The second line of P-75I could be a German U-boat in a G-to-G deal, to keep abreast of German sub tech which we're famiar with .Perhaps a few more Scorpenes to keep MDL occupied, but after the S- leaks and Oz to get superior sub- tech than us from the French, the very expensive subs from France are at a disadvantage when compared with their German and Ru rivals.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby yensoy » 10 Mar 2018 16:03

Yeah, let's build our nuclear submarines within a kilometer of the financial district of the financial capital of our country which has as its residents around 20 million people! Where a zillion fishing boats and water taxis operate within close quarters, and where vessels of rival nations regularly cross.

No. We need a purpose built facility far away from prying eyes, as well as limiting damage in case of any accident, where we can churn out product, run experiments and control the surroundings to the fullest extent possible. When the sub is built, it should slip out of the water undetected. Somewhere down the road, say six months from that day, it should be "launched" with full band baja in the A&N islands.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2018 19:30

The strategic level
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/cove ... 2018-03-08

By Sandeep Unnithan

Last month, Mazagon Dock offered to construct three additional Scorpenes for the Indian Navy. The existing facilities at the dock will become idle by 2020 after the sixth and last Scorpene is built. There are compelling reasons why the navy would want three more submarines. The six next-generation conventional submarines of Project 75I, worth $10 billion, for which France's Naval Group that makes the Scorpenes is a contender, are at least a decade away. (It takes six years to build a submarine.) Mazagon Dock can deliver three more units at the rate of one a year after 2025. The French designer has agreed to make the 14 design changes in the three additional Scorpenes. "In the maritime domain, France has a number of things that we could use-design of a small nuclear reactor (Rubis class) for submarine and a larger reactor for carrier propulsion," says former navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 11 Mar 2018 06:14

What I've suggested may be part of the N- package in the Strat. td. However, Rubis class subs are far too small for IN SSNs.Since our principal sub weaponry is Ru, more likely that the SSNs will have an Ru flavour.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 03 Apr 2018 04:37

Mazagon Dock may bag $8-b P75I submarine project.

The $8-billion ‘Project-75 India’ programme by the Indian Navy that entails building six advanced submarines is likely to be grabbed by Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) on a nomination basis even as private sector players are grappling with lack of orders.

The decision was taken last week at a meeting chaired by the Minister of Defence Nirmala Sitharaman where it was planned that the programme, also called as P75(I), will not be rolled out under Strategic Partnership (SP) Policy in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016 as was initially decided, sources told BusinessLine.

“The Defence Ministry has now decided to withdraw the P75(I) Submarine Programme from the SP Policy that was originally mooted by former Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and award the contract on a nomination basis to MDL,” said an official, who refused to be identified.

Technically the decision comes as a positive development for French shipbuilding conglomerate Naval Group with which MDL already has partnership under transfer of technology (ToT) arrangement for the ongoing $3.75-billion ‘Project 75’ or P-75l, in which six Scorpene-class submarines are being built.

The decision is expected to sound a death knell for players like Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Reliance whose shipyards at Kattupalli and Pipavav respectively are reeling under heavy losses on account of lack of orders from the Defence Ministry, sources said.

“The private shipyards have become loss-making units with a turnover of ₹1,000 crore or less. There were expectations that the P75(I) will come to the private players under the SP policy but it seems that the plan is now shelved,” said an industry representative, who refused to be identified.

The P75(I) programme was announced in October 2014. Thereafter, in 2016 the Navy issued a request for information (RFI) to six global submarine makers seeking to build six advanced submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology, which enables the submarines to stay under water for a longer period. Besides, the proposed submarines will have a vertical launch system with a brand new cruise missile that will be used as the main anti-ship missile.

The six players which received the RFI includes — ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), SAAB (Sweden), Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard (Russia and Italy), Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (Japan).

However, in October 2017 when the Ministry was being headed by Finance and Corporate Affairs Minister Arun Jaitley the government got responses to the RFI from France, Germany, Russia and Sweden.

Subsequently, the Defence Ministry started drafting the expressions of interest (EoI) to be issued to the Indian private sector shipyards for selection of the strategic partner with the appointment of SBI Caps as advisor. The final award for these contracts were aimed at creating submarine-building capabilities in the private sector to augment the pace of production that ails the government shipyards.

However, it seems now that Minister Sitharaman has decided to undo all that. Interestingly, the decision comes within less than a month of the French President Emmanuel Macron’s visit to India. The French, according to sources, pushed for the project aggressively during the bilateral meeting between Macron and Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby srai » 03 Apr 2018 04:58

^^^
...
The decision is expected to sound a death knell for players like Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and Reliance whose shipyards at Kattupalli and Pipavav respectively are reeling under heavy losses on account of lack of orders from the Defence Ministry, sources said.

“The private shipyards have become loss-making units with a turnover of ₹1,000 crore or less. There were expectations that the P75(I) will come to the private players under the SP policy but it seems that the plan is now shelved,” said an industry representative, who refused to be identified.

Again, “lack of orders” (or continuous orders) even when the needs are many! No private player would want to be part of this.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 03 Apr 2018 05:33

We need two makers of ssk given our needs perhaps making the same model . This is routine in many strong navies

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 03 Apr 2018 13:12

Handing everything to MDL is a recipe for delays.The Scorpene programe a shining example>Late and well-over budget.By not having a pvt. player as competition,the GOI/MOD is denying the nation a better result through competition. One line can be with the DPSU and the other with a pvt. player,where L&T are better equipped than the R co.Moreover,if we go for the French subs,they are the most expensive subs of all of western manufacturers and how do they account for their statement by the French OEM,NG,to Oz,that they would never sell India anything as good as what OZ was getting in their deal?

After the Scorpene leaks,is it wise to build another 3 Scorpenes whose performance parameters are now totally exposed? The jury s out with this one.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 04 Apr 2018 02:00

Maybe something is happening on the barracuda tech for the ssn’s after Marcons visit.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby sanjaykumar » 04 Apr 2018 02:24

Stop asking uncomfortable questions, Philip.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby kit » 04 Apr 2018 03:23

Philip wrote:Handing everything to MDL is a recipe for delays.The Scorpene programe a shining example>Late and well-over budget.By not having a pvt. player as competition,the GOI/MOD is denying the nation a better result through competition. One line can be with the DPSU and the other with a pvt. player,where L&T are better equipped than the R co.Moreover,if we go for the French subs,they are the most expensive subs of all of western manufacturers and how do they account for their statement by the French OEM,NG,to Oz,that they would never sell India anything as good as what OZ was getting in their deal?

After the Scorpene leaks,is it wise to build another 3 Scorpenes whose performance parameters are now totally exposed? The jury s out with this one.


As long as the French did not sign anything to that effect , they are free to do what they want.. having said that i would look into the kockums tech as a second option if the french refuse to part with pump propulsion tech and the reactor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A26_submarine

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 13 Apr 2018 06:58

Russia invites India to build new submarine at Indian shipyards.

Russia has invited India to jointly design and build a new non-nuclear submarine on the basis of project Amur-1650, the deputy director of the federal service for military-technical cooperation, Vladimir Drozhzhov, told the media on Thursday.

"Russia has an alternative proposal for the Indian partners. It is not another project for the production of military technologies under license, but joint design and development of the submarine (what is there to design if it based on Amur-1650? Russia is try to pull the same stunt as they did with PAKFA-FGFA) and its subsequent construction at Indian shipyards in accordance with the initiative Make in India," he explained.

Drozhzhov said that in preparations for the bidding context for building a batch of non-nuclear submarines Russia had presented its proposals to the Indian side. The Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport will certainly participate in the forthcoming contest.

The Amur-1650 submarine has been finalized and certain experience gained in the process of its operation, he added.

The Indian Navy declared the intention to acquire six submarines back in 2006. Before the forthcoming bidding contest was announced (its dates had been reconsidered several times) India signed a contract with France for six diesel-electric Scorpen class submarines.

The Amur-1650 non-nuclear submarines are an export configuration of project 677 Lada, developed at the design bureau Rubin. New hull design solutions, special coating and sophisticated radio-electronics lend the submarine unsurpassed stealth capabilities. The Amur subs are armed with Club missiles (a variety of the missile system Kalibr) and have air-independent propulsion.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Apr 2018 10:45

Kalina class is due to enter service early part of the next decade.This may be on offer too.With both BMos and Nirbhay ready, design mods will be reqd. of any existing non-nuclear sub in the future to carry them whether they are from the West or East.Barring models of BMos Amurs with a plug for VLS , exg. French and German subs will require extensive redesign for the same.

The IN actually would be better off with 2 classes in both nuclear and non- nuclear boats.HUKs, primarily to destroy enemy subs and cruise missile boats, with additional land attack missiles.The latter would be larger.These apart from the SSBNs which are dedicated to the strat. deterrent and not conventional undersea warfare.Trying to find one " jack-of- all-trades" boat, which will be larger than an AIP HUK today, will compromise its capability in some manner as it will require larger (and noisier) engines
plus extra eqpt., manpower even with increased automation.As a conv. AIP boat gets larger and more expensive, the cost-effectiveness and extra capability of an N-boat becomes more attractive. The Russians are doing just ghat now after the very sophisticated and very expensive Yasen SSGNs, in building a new sub type , smaller in two versions, attack and cruise missile boats based upon the same basic platform.
Last edited by Philip on 13 Apr 2018 11:29, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 13 Apr 2018 11:08

Why focus or foreign design. Build a domestic design with domestic AIP and weapons module.

Leaverage the design experience of Arihant and the manufacturing experience from scorpean. For the SSK.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 13 Apr 2018 11:36

We don't have the full capability.ATV design is heavily supported by Ru.Domestic AIP system has still not been perfected or fitted onto a sub! Had Adm.Bhagwat's plan for two parallel sub lines for subs from east and west been executed 2 decades ago, the experience of both would've led to their successor design, a desi one by now.We now have to watch the Scorpenes intensely in the IOR littorals and evaluate their performance before embarking upon any new sub design.

The Scorpene is totally compromised and German U-boats of advanced classes than our U-209/ 1500 boats, are in service in large numbers with navies worldwide.We will be the last in the "Q" to buy them just like the attempts to dump obsolete F-16/F-18s into service.


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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Vips » 16 Apr 2018 18:55

I thought there was something of value that Russia had come up with regarding the submarine tender but all it turned out to be was some exercise in PRgiri with the Russian guy hoping to get the order.

I found the following from his interview very :rotfl:
We are better than our competitors in terms of knowledge, transfer of design technology and state of the art design technology for Indian industry.


We already have the air wing of navy , the platform it operates from and the frigates which are Russian, i hope we keep them out at least from the 75i order or else 20 years down the line we will still be saying and reading that 70% of our defence equipment is Russian.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2018 20:26

IF you speak with any Submariner of Indian Navy who served Kilo and T209 and we had few during BRF jirga you would come to know the operational record of Kilo in IN and it has fared quite well for us so much so that we have modernised it and customised it as well.

Most likely based on my own convesation with IN Sub officer they prefer to have Western and Russian design in the fleet because of unique peculiarities of each design and for opsec reasons.

Ideally we should design and build our own conventional subs but limted resources meant that we put that effort for N subs for strategic reason but in another two decade we will have our own conventional subs design in our fleet

We still have a lot of unique capabilties added via indiginisation like ESM , Sonar , TAS , Decoys and hopefully in few years our own AIP.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 16 Apr 2018 21:03

Does it make sense to invest $10B in SSKs, when we can order those many SSNs ?

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby arshyam » 16 Apr 2018 21:40

My understanding is that we need diesels for the shallower waters of the Arabian sea. Given the thermoclines and tropical temperature, SSKs can be very potent and stay hidden.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 16 Apr 2018 22:12

Russia is assisting us with the ATV programme plus leasing Akulas to us so that we can train our submariners in operating N- subs.No other nation on the planet is willing to that.Remember how the Brits initially wanted to unload their cast-off rustbuckets onto us? We then were provided with Foxtrots and Kilos by ghe Sovs.,both very capable.Remember the tale of Adm.Rickover wanting to see a Foxtrot whose design he admired.

We need both conv.AIP subs as well as N-subs.There is a good accoount how a Swedish Gotland class sub " sank" a USN CBG.It kept winning battles in exercises.One of our Kilos supposedly got the better of a USN Los Angeles class SSN in Indo- US exercises too.If the Amur's basic design and quieting is sev. times superior to a Kilo and a modified design to accommodate BMos, etc. is being offered, it is well worth taking a good hard look at the same as the sub will definitely be at least $100M cheaper than any Western sub.Current prices show that a Kilo is $200M cheaper than either a U-boat or non-AIP Scorpene today.That's a $billion+ saved for an order of 6! Money talks.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Will » 17 Apr 2018 00:44

I think a lot is going to depend on whether the French are going to help out on the SSN project and with what level of tech. It’s going to have a direct bearing on which way the P75I is going to swing. Cost wise there’s nothing to beat the Russian subs but the Amur has been no shining success. If it was just a pure conventional submarine competition the A26 would be a good bet. If I am not mistaken a senior IN official mentioned the A26 and the U214 being the most silent of the lot. But there are a lot of other factors that are going to come into play like who’s turn it is to be kept happy with a share of the pie. I think the Russian got their slice with the frigate order. But they are so used to gobbling the whole cake that they are going to start crying if they loose the P75I.

I think as a natural progression Russia is going to drift from India. India couldn’t do much when they cosyed up to the Chinese but they are crossing a red line when they begin cosying up to Pakistan.

The Russian economy is in doldrums . They are becoming totally dependent on China. The west is going to crush their economy and the worst mistake the Russians can make is loosing India as a friend. They need to understand that only defence sales don’t constitute a friendship. There are many other ways India can help the Russian economy but they don’t seem to be to interested in boosting trade and keep harping on the defence aspect.

With reports of Sitharaman’s snub to the Russians at the defence expo looks like the Russians were arrogant on her recent visit to Russia. :x

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 17 Apr 2018 04:55

Let's not speculate but the NSA to visit Moscow is an indicator that things may be drifting and need to be firmed up.It's been almost 2 yrs. now since small-fry deals like the LUH were agreed upon.Can't understand the MOD delays, not just for specific Ru deals.Once a deal is done there should be a v.short timeframe in which the final dhobi mark is given.Look how long the Rafale deal languished, LW howitzers from BAe urgently needed.Chinooks and Apaches, where are they? Even the 4 extra P-8s wanted are just extras of systems in service , like buying the last C-17.

Coming back to the P-75I, given the decades long experience of operating Ru subs very successfully, with game changing missiles lkke BMos in hand,already tested from an underwater platform a few years ago, the obvious route for the req. would be an Ru sub tailor made to the IN's needs.With the Scorpene data being leaked and its design now in the middle ages, in addition to the P-75Is which appear to be gen-purpose boats, HUK subs for the shallower waters of the Arabian Sea may be served best with new U- boats of which there are a few options.Here too our experience of the U-209s has been favourable ,
but both Western boats carry inferior Harpoon and Exocet missiles, quite inferior in almost every aspect to BMos and should be meant for the dedicated HuK role with the newer long range/ long endurance torpedoes.

The one item that is still an unknown is which AIP system
will make it.The desi system has yet to be fitted aboard a sub.We seem to have no research programmes worthy of a major navy being carried out with experimental subs.Previously F class legacy boats were being used to test our desi sonars. Sub-launched BMos could easily be sent to Ru and tested aboard any of its numerous research subs, if not from an operational sub given its a sister missile to Yakhont.

nachiket
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 24 Apr 2018 06:44

We need to decide what the new SSK's are to be primarily used for. If we need to quickly augment our small submarine fleet there is no point in waiting for some foreign design to be successfully modified by the OEM to fit Brahmos VLS cells. It will be expensive and time consuming and the sub will take a performance hit.

By the time any such sub actually gets built it is likely that the Brahmos-M will be ready. We can modify that to be fired from a torpedo tube and integrate it with existing subs. It is far more important to start our lengthy RFI-RFP-eval-L1 selection followed by negotiations process which will itself take several years even without any modifications to the basic design. Just select an existing design and start building. We already know from the Scorpene experience what our speed of building submarines is.

We can work on designing and building SSN's with VLS tubes in parallel which should be possible to do by modifying the Arihant's design.


P-75I is already resembling the MRCA fiasco. In hindsight the IAF would have been much better off had we just bought 126 M2ks back when it started. 10 years from now with no new submarines in sight we'll be thinking we should have just bought 6 more scorpene's with AIP. Of course since the Scorpene documents leaked, that is probably out of the question. But we can still do the next best thing.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Apr 2018 07:00

nachiket wrote:We need to decide what the new SSK's are to be primarily used for .

You think? Iirc the Navy's specs sheet looked like it wants an SSN clothed in a diesel... You're right this ain't happening anytime soon..

nachiket
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 24 Apr 2018 07:22

IN is asking for something that does not exist. I realize that having a few SSKs which can fire Brahmos will be extremely useful. But we don't have the luxury of time here. The choice may well be between 6 AIP equipped U-214s/Scorpenes/Kilos within the next few years or holding our heads in our hands a decade+ from now with no decision and an even more desperate situation in our sub fleet.

If we had adequate numbers of submarines right now and this was for a future acquisition it would be great. But budget constraints and our messed up procurement means that whatever RFI's we send out are for stuff we needed yesterday. Even more applicable where submarines are concerned.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 24 Apr 2018 10:50

Nacho, I endorse your viewpoint. Scorpene tech is middle-aged and data compromised.I have been saying for long that we need dedicated SSKs to deal with Paki and Chinese subs.Therefore the excellent experience with German U- boats should result in further orders for more.Also remember that in the Israeli Dolphin boats, there are two tube sizes.Our next Western origin boats should be German AIP boats which have a proven AIP system too.If the DRDO system arrives in time, use it instead.

Apart from the Western line, the IN should plan for the Kilo replacements post 2025.A Kilo sub reportedly got the better of a USN L.A. class ( Corpus Christi) sub in a Malabar exercise in recent memory.These subs however are all undergoing their second and last refit. A new ocean- going multi- purpose AIP sub with BMos and Nirbhay, cheaper than an N- sub but needed to make up numbers could begin construction post 2020.German U-boats to start immediately after the Last Scorpene is nearing completion.

Cain Marko
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Apr 2018 10:57

nachiket wrote:IN is asking for something that does not exist. I realize that having a few SSKs which can fire Brahmos will be extremely useful. But we don't have the luxury of time here. The choice may well be between 6 AIP equipped U-214s/Scorpenes/Kilos within the next few years or holding our heads in our hands a decade+ from now with no decision and an even more desperate situation in our sub fleet.

If we had adequate numbers of submarines right now and this was for a future acquisition it would be great. But budget constraints and our messed up procurement means that whatever RFI's we send out are for stuff we needed yesterday. Even more applicable where submarines are concerned.

Between the Navys sky high demands, the MODs lackadaisical process of acquisitions, and the politician's insatiable appetite for brownie points from populist measures, the security situation can only remain dire for many years to come. A soldier's nightmare.


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