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Project 75I- It Begins

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Singha
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 07 May 2016 07:26

I dont think one can simply reverse engineer a product like Su27 or a high class marine diesel.
its purchase of production machinery , covert licenses and full manufacturing tot for $$$ while overtly decrying their human rights record

EU/US construction and machine tools sector has made a fortune in the chinese infra buildout.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Yagnasri » 07 May 2016 07:54

It is just like west support to Nazis before the war. But is all thing of the past. We need to look at what we can do about it. The SSK-ing of Arihant hull seems to be a nice idea. Like IAF we simply have too many types if we go with present manner.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 07 May 2016 16:44

If L&T is the supplier and MDL/HSL/SBC is the integrator, and a mix of indian, western and roosi origin component suppliers can be found, an indeginious P75I is possible.
India has constructed U-209s, Scorpenes, Arihant class aleady.
Still want to do screwdrivergiri on a videshi design?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Kersi D » 11 May 2016 13:09

Gagan wrote:If L&T is the supplier and MDL/HSL/SBC is the integrator, and a mix of indian, western and roosi origin component suppliers can be found, an indeginious P75I is possible.
India has constructed U-209s, Scorpenes, Arihant class aleady.
Still want to do screwdrivergiri on a videshi design?


My suggestion is to do both
Go to phorner, my choice German, and make 6+ subs under licence
Design and develop our own SSK. Perhap we can take the Arihant hull in toto and replace all the internals.

If we trust the Germans, I do not trust anybody, we can take their expertise to convert Arihant SSBM into a Naya Arihant SSK

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Austin » 12 May 2016 19:14

The Built for Israel Dolphin class sub from HDW looks good as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xrsOmBfQhU

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 18 May 2016 01:28

Image

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_23370 » 18 May 2016 01:54

So I guess ours in AM-2000 model. It would be great if they could use this as template and add the DRDO AIP plug in and 2 2m tubes from Arihant (but shorter) for Brahmos-M and Nirbhay in P-75I.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 18 May 2016 08:36

The dolphin is the largest of the U209 family @ 2200 tons.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 18 May 2016 23:06

How will Kalvari class support special ops?

Does our present fleet support special ops?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Kakkaji » 29 May 2016 08:45

I think this prepares the ground for a follow-on order of the Scorpenes to be built at MDL:

Navy waits for subs, Parrikar opens yard

New Delhi, May 28: Defence minister Manohar Parrikar today opened a new yard in Mumbai to build submarines but official sloth, charges of corruption and a revision of policy continue to make the navy desperate for boats that are being lost faster than they can be made.

The new submarine workshop that defence public sector Mazagaon Docks Limited (MDL) has added to its facilities was meant for a "second line" of submarines. It was envisaged as a "30-year submarine building plan" that was adopted by the navy in 1997.

The building yard that was inaugurated by Parrikar today has facilities to build five submarines concurrently, an MDL spokesperson said.

The second line of submarines was meant to be an advancement over the first line. The project was called P75i. These submarines were to be made at the MDL's new workshop. The P75i submarines were to be equipped with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP), a new compartment of machinery that would enable them to stay submerged longer than the boats the navy has in its fleet currently.

Five months back, however, the ministry had asked a committee headed by a senior naval officer to identify shipyards that could make the P75i submarines. The committee shortlisted seven without committing to giving the order to any one of them. The shortlist includes at least two in the private sector - Larsen and Toubro and Pipavav (that now belongs to Reliance). The private sector has alleged that the public sector, especially MDL, has an unfair advantage.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_29341 » 29 May 2016 09:59

I think the question is more about what we want to achieve with P75I. If the need is for faster build and augmentation of the Green water force then the Scorpene is the right choice.
However my understanding of the P75I was a different class of vessel - Longer range (over 22,000 KM), larger size (4000T), Advanced Propulsion and Sonar System among others. Intention through this project was to gain access to technologies (such as antimagnetic steel) that we did not have currently. Hence the new class.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 29 May 2016 12:00

The new facility

Image

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Austin » 25 Jun 2016 20:33

Type 212A Class Patrol Submarine


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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 13 Apr 2017 21:44

Wonder if this one is dead. Submarines should have been the priority of this govt and should have been cleared in the 1st year itself. There have been recent reports of no Private company being willing to take up the SSN project. So where does it leave the P75I? Will the IN be left with just 6 scorpenes in the not to distant future? If the govt is using the P75I as bait for help on the SSN its one thing. But the IN cant wait indefinitely before its submarine force levels begin to dip below Pakistan's, forget China. China isn't even in our sights where submarines are concerned.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 29 Apr 2017 19:18

I think that DRDO with L&T and Indian Navy should build a Indian designed Diesel Electric sub with components sourced from India and abroad, fitted with DRDOs AIP.
Build one such sub as a technology demonstrator at SBC Vizag without AIP, and another one with AIP, and let DRDO and IN operate it for a few years

Indian Sonar, Indian Torpedos and missiles (if it has to be armed), Imported DIesel Engine (?Germany), gearbox from Walchandnagar (they build the gearbox for the Arihant Class). Most of the internal electronics can be indian.
Like the LCA, this will capitalize on the now existing support system built up for the Scorpenes

It is high time India did this too. Puny nations like Sweden have built DE subs for decades now.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 01 May 2017 10:03

I wonder how the new sub building facility will be utilized in the absence of new order for submarine's.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 01 May 2017 13:01

One fact is v.clear,there are two types of navies.Those with N-subs and those without them. The latter category are the ones who want large conventional subs with AIP,etc.,etc. to perform more onerous blue-water tasks/ops that are usually done by N-subs.But no matter how advanced they are,they will always be inferior to a true N-boat which will be much faster,possessing unlimited range,a 90+ day endurance,and can carry a more comprehensive weapons package. Wise nations however also possess smaller conventional boats for coastal/littoral requirements,where these smaller boats can take on N-boats just as one of our Kilos did during an Indo-US exercise. These smaller boats can be fielded in larger numbers and are particularly useful for sanitising chokepoints and operating in marine environments where their size and stealth make them less vulnerable than a alrger n-boat.

A compromise of sorts can exist by arming these diesel boats with AIP systems and a limited number of advanced missiles like BMos,Klub,Shkval,etc.,to increase their lethality. Each nation will have to decide for itself what size and what "bang" comes with the boat. The IN is tasked with a huge area of ocean,within the IOR let alone without ,and therefore needs quantity as well as quality. Pak is hetting 8 new Chinese AIP boats in addition to its 4 Agosta-90B AIP subs obtained from France and built at home. They will pose a significant threat to our seaboards and island territories.Assisted by the PLAN's own subs, some based at Gwadar,we will have ranged against us in the IOR on a permanent basis at least 16 subs in the not so far off future,both nuclear and conventional. No large CV with EMALS and other bells and whistles will be able to handle such a diversely deployed sub threat! If the ION does not possess at least 36 subs,12 nuclear,we will be in great danger of suffering severe losses in the maritime sphere ,which will affect our ability to trade and obtain supplies of petro products from the Gulf.

P-75I will atke aeons of years to fructify.Acquiring subs from the west and east any-which-way asap must be the most urgent priority of the IN,as well as deciding upon the large req. of ASW/MR helos.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 01 May 2017 14:21

With project 75i taking time, it makes sense to go for 3additiknal scorpene

Pratyush wrote:I wonder how the new sub building facility will be utilized in the absence of new order for submarine's.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 01 May 2017 16:18

Since startup INS-vishal and startup Indian-SSN have got seed funding of few crores from VC(MOD), it becomes apparent that startup diesel SSK will not even be called for a ppt talk by the main investor (navy).

I think there will never be a purely Indian designed diesel submarine although we have the capability
to do it.
A clean slate SSK is atleast 7-10 years away even if people working on it are under an
success or siberia type management and work starts today. With our SSK fleet in dire straits
it makes sense to keep churning out scorpenes and replenish the fleet since the supply chain is well oiled.
A new design will bring with it new challenges and money, effort and manpower will have to be
spent on solving it and we are not sure if we would be able to surpass the best in the world
with decades of experience under their belt in acoustic suppression technology.
WIth advances in battery technology a diesel engine itself might become obsolete in a sub by 2030.

Integrating the DRDO AIP with scorpene itself is a small project and the resulting sub will be a new class
in itself. What I see is progressive indegenization of scorpene with more and more Indian
equipment and customizations. With crores spent on a new ship yard for scorpene and also on AIP,
I see an order book beyond the 6 + 3.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 01 May 2017 17:18

I don't know if the diesel engine will be obsolete.
But taking a cue from the new gen battery operated cars, they have a very small petrol engine, whose job is to just recharge the battery and help extend the range a bit. The cars still run on battery power.

Even if battery storage becomes really good, it is going to remain inadequate to power a sub with 60 odd inhabitants for a few weeks, leave alone a month. AIP is here to stay for the next 30-40 yrs.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 01 May 2017 17:24

Philip wrote:P-75I will atke aeons of years to fructify.Acquiring subs from the west and east any-which-way asap must be the most urgent priority of the IN,as well as deciding upon the large req. of ASW/MR helos.

Philip-ji
This exact excuse has been trotted out by the armed forces on virtually every project.
I don't know why, but the senior brass is hell bent on styming domestic development by government owned DRDO.

I think the lentils are black onlee, the top brass is compromised surely. Their rubbing shoulders with the MOD babus and the New Delhi-Raksha Mantralaya/arms agent environment is bad for the forces.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby chola » 01 May 2017 19:20

Gagan wrote:
Philip wrote:P-75I will atke aeons of years to fructify.Acquiring subs from the west and east any-which-way asap must be the most urgent priority of the IN,as well as deciding upon the large req. of ASW/MR helos.

Philip-ji
This exact excuse has been trotted out by the armed forces on virtually every project.
I don't know why, but the senior brass is hell bent on styming domestic development by government owned DRDO.

I think the lentils are black onlee, the top brass is compromised surely. Their rubbing shoulders with the MOD babus and the New Delhi-Raksha Mantralaya/arms agent environment is bad for the forces.



The India under immediate threat so we must have bestest phoren maal here and now is the bane of our drive for a domestic military-industrial-complex.

Seriously, instead of phucking quaking under our lungis we take a look at the shitty, third rate opposition we have arrayed against us.

TSP, three war all wins. Conventionally we dominate them with whatever have.

Cheen, look at the satellite map of the lizard at night. The half of cheen next to bharat is black as midnight. Barely any people and even less military assets. On top of which the chini military had not fought a war in 40 years and is full of phucking single little emperors whose whole family lines will die out if any one of them gets toasted in a hot war.

Who else? Sri Lanka? Nepal? Bangladesh? You kidding me? Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu had blessed us with a singularly weak neighborhood. But we don't act like it out of dhoti shivering.

Build our own chit. We have time because contrary to the chickenshit among us, India stands astride our region like a phucking colossus among insects. It is time we act that way.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 01 May 2017 19:30

This is the Senior Military Brass version of "India Khatre Mein Hai"
So Import Phoreign Maal, Junk DRDO and domestic production, screw indian development and progress in the process.

Meanwhile, some senior officer is accepting bribes to locate dassault podium favourably in Aero India

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 01 May 2017 20:35

Gagan wrote:I don't know if the diesel engine will be obsolete.
But taking a cue from the new gen battery operated cars, they have a very small petrol engine, whose job is to just recharge the battery and help extend the range a bit. The cars still run on battery power.

Even if battery storage becomes really good, it is going to remain inadequate to power a sub with 60 odd inhabitants for a few weeks, leave alone a month. AIP is here to stay for the next 30-40 yrs.


After thinking a bit, I agree 2030 may be too optimistic for diesel engine(DE) to be replaced on a sub. Subs on design board now will be launched with DE say 10 years down the line. Probably 2040 and beyond we may see battery + AIP only subs.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 02 May 2017 00:09

Don't agree with this thought process that services are creating dhoti shiver. The numbers drop is appalling and under such circumstances armed forces have no choice but to procure in a hurry. Its not like they didn't project these falling numbers decades ago - others have sat on them, now when things are looking dismal, why blame them for urgent procurement.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 02 May 2017 19:55

Had our numbers been relatively healthy we could afford to spend some time on developing our own design.but we have a serious lack of sub design skills.It is the most heavily guarded tech of all.Had we continued to build subs despite the HDW "scandal" that never came to light,instead of selling millions of $$$ worth of eqpt. as scrap (you should listen to the moans of veteran submariners who worked on the project),or even framed the parameters and guarantees for the Scorpene deal properly,we would not be in such a mess. Our N-sub programme is dependent upon Russian assistance (the extent classified).
It is amazing that the Kilos are getting a second lifetime refit-(unheard of!), a testament to their endurance and relevance despite the age of the basic design,which is just keeping our sub capability above water,or should I instead say just below it! So if the IN needs subs as of day-before-yesterday,where will it get it from? In my opinion we have no alternative to previous offers of subs/leasing of subs both conventional and nculear from Russia. Of course there will be a price to pay,but far less than that of anything from the West.

When the SR was devastated a few years ago,the IN should've also examined the opportunity of acquiring second-hand U-boats. For over 6 years I've been advocating such a measure. The Greeks had no moolah to pay for their new U-boats,we could've acquired them easily. Now even Egypt is getting U-209s, This is the most successful western design.the Kilo counterpart. Why it alternatively did not get one or two Kilo replacements from Russia,where the sub has been in continuous manufacture for 3 decades+,is another mystery.When two of our IL-38s collided and were lost,we swiftly got replacements from Russia. Now in the last 5 years,Vietnam has acquired 6 Kilo 636s,the latest variant,and the In is helping to train them!

Russia in recent times has resurrected most of its Sov. era subs,SSNs and SSGNs. The hulls of these subs can last for 50 years,therefore,they've bene completely modernised and fitted with brand new eqpt. and weaponry,making them even deadlier than before. The pace of new N-subs is also back to Sov. era times and according to USN sources,deployments of Ru subs is as great as it was during the Cold War or even greater. Since we possess one Akula-2 and are getting another,it would be prudent to acquire at least 2 more,fully modernised and upgraded. These will give us a fine capability until our smaller SSNs arrive ,which could cannot be earlier than 2025/27. These SSGNs will be sorely needed to counter the PLAN and its N-subs and carrier forces. Extra AIP boats from both east and west (Germany) will help make up numbers until genuine desi design can be trotted out in a decade's time.
Right now there's nothing in the desi cupboard.

The big Q is is the IN/GOI listening at all? The IN's apparent obsession with a large EMALS,N-powered carrier after US seduction,is ludicrous when the sub fleet can barely muster half a dozen subs fit for combat.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 19 May 2017 18:55

IDRW is posting a follow up order of up to 10 boats to p 75.

Not sure how to take it.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 19 May 2017 20:03

AIP systems analysis posted before here. What will our future conventional boats use? None of the Scorpenes has an AIP system,while all Pak's Agosta subs do (MESMA),plus all Yuan subs will have the Stirling Engine system. China has made leaps and bounds in sub tech,while we've simply stagnated and are moving at snail's pace by comparison. We operated Kilos first,long before them.They caught up,cloned the Kilo and the Yuan is a further dev. of that. Barring the ATV programme,with a lot of help from Russia,we've struggled to build Scorpenes under licence at huge cost. I'm waiting to see how the IN "squares the circle" for resolving the sub fleet crisis,short-to-med-to long term.

http://ckb-rubin.ru/en/press_room/execu ... h_power-1/

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby uddu » 19 May 2017 20:31

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newslet ... may_17.pdf
Dr Christopher also visited the
AIP site and inaugurated the Feed
Preparation System (FPS) required
for preparation and storage of Sodium
Borohydride (NaBH4) feed solution for
operation of land-based prototype (LBP)
of AIP. Dr Christopher congratulated
NMRL for the achievement.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 20 May 2017 01:40

China has done the hard things at the right time.
Through the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s they were building, importing, stealing and xeroxing all sorts of military tech, but making it in china.
Just look at the sheer variety of defence goods they have created indigenously.

There are no shortcuts as we've seen in the Helo and the LCA programs, and lots of easy ways out, along with a demand by the defence forces, for equipment urgently.

Hope, the follow on order has an Indian designed submarine in it. 10 subs is a huge number.

Again I hope there will be two conventional indian designed subs, one without AIP and the other with DRDOs AIP - indian designed, with components sourced from India and abroad, and used as a test bed by DRDO and the Indian Navy. This is the right place to start.
Unless, GoI wants to go with a foreign manufacturer and start series build of a joint Indian-Foreign designed sub, that is made here.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 20 May 2017 11:24

What we've not done due to the myopia of the UPA.AKA/MOD,is to have started research sub programes.Sub-launched BMos is ready but no sub available even one year after it was fired from a pontoon! We could've very easily got a second-hand Kilo from Russia,or new one and used an old one of ours for fitting the AIP module to it,or even on any one of the German U-boats.Sev. countries have bought German/Swedish U-boats second hand,even SPore,for gaining sub experience.A BMos/AIP Kilo test sub could've been in the water by now.Now that BMos-M/L is being developed,in the future, our Ru subs will be abel to carry Bmos. Whether the missile will be reduced in length to fit aboard our Scorpenes is unknown. It will also need to be integrated with the FC system of the french.

The IN should press ahead for research sub programmes too ,apart from merely acquiring new subs.Russia have sev. research programmes with specialist subs,not prt of any series. This is the only way we will be abl;e to develop a greater % of self-sufficiency in sub tech,which is the most difficult to acquire .

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 20 May 2017 12:59

I think it all boils down to money, or the lack of it to fund defense research.
The defence labs are excruciatingly slow, underequipped often to speedily carry out research. There are most probably arachic socialist practices still hanging around in the R&D system that continue to hobble them

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby chola » 20 May 2017 13:15

Gagan wrote:I think it all boils down to money, or the lack of it to fund defense research.
The defence labs are excruciatingly slow, underequipped often to speedily carry out research. There are most probably arachic socialist practices still hanging around in the R&D system that continue to hobble them



It doesn't help when scarce funds are used to support other beepul's MIC.

Seriously, we need to look at how militarily fvcking weak of a shit neighborhood we live in. We are under no immediate threats and that includes Pakistan (fvcked them over three times already) and Cheen (look at satellite map at night -- vast expanse of darkness in regions bordering India, little people even less military assets.)

We have time to build our own chit.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 21 May 2017 03:48

Whichever platform is selected, it needs to be able to fire Varunastra HWT.
Image

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 04 Jun 2017 16:01

One little line in the newspaper report on Strat-e-jic Partnur policy 'approved' last week and which came 'into effect' on May 24 caught my attention and says

Mr. Jaitley said that it would be seen how Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSU) can be made part of this and what their contribution would be.


I feel the above statement by jaitley is to allow future scorpene orders be executed by mazgon docks under SP policy . So my guess is scorpene with AIP is the P-75I. Hoping with this our diesel submarine production stabilizes with 1 sub churned out every year.

Parellely we should start work on our own design of sub with Li-ion battries and diesel engine eliminated.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby shiv » 04 Jun 2017 17:04

There is already a DRDO version of AIP but I am not sure if anyone uses Li-ion on subs (genuine ignorance here) - I thought it was always lead acid

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 04 Jun 2017 20:37

Japanese are planning to put Li-ion in soryu subs whose production started 2015 onwards.

"At this moment Japanese submarines use lead-acid batteries as a source of power, but submarines being produced since the fiscal year 2015 will use lithium-ion batteries instead," said the company.


http://www.janes.com/article/68275/japa ... -batteries.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Arun.prabhu » 04 Jun 2017 22:44

arvin wrote:Japanese are planning to put Li-ion in soryu subs whose production started 2015 onwards.

"At this moment Japanese submarines use lead-acid batteries as a source of power, but submarines being produced since the fiscal year 2015 will use lithium-ion batteries instead," said the company.


http://www.janes.com/article/68275/japa ... -batteries.


Oh, what a wonderful idea. Put an energy storage device that when damaged burns in air or water on a machine of war that is already an enclosed, submerged deathtrap in war. The japs make the best non-nuclear subs in the world, but one hopes that they have given a great deal of thought to safety in a combat environment.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 05 Jun 2017 13:04

Ru and the DRDO (?) are supposed to be working on a "diesel fuel reforming" AIP system,said to possess certain advantages over other AIP systems.We'll have to wait and see.China however,is far ahead of many hgistoric naval pwoers with its oiwn independent research.Its Navy is being gvien the highest priority of the 3ervices.

http://www.popsci.com/china-new-submari ... er-warfare
China's new submarine engine is poised to revolutionize underwater warfare
It looks a lot like 'Red October' in real life.
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer June 2, 2017

vasu raya
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby vasu raya » 05 Jun 2017 22:25

Maybe something like this changes the Scorpene signature significantly


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