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Project 75I- It Begins

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby SaiK » 24 Jul 2017 19:35

These IDRW and defenceindia walas points the source of truth as Chindu, and nowhere they have op-ed or linked to the news of Soryu. The headlines are bindaas "chinese killer or nightmare".

One can't trust these bacchaas

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 25 Jul 2017 11:36

By the time a decision is finally taken,IST,it might end-up being the "grandmother of all def. deals!" :rotfl:
The task immediate is to augment the IN NOW with subs unti the 75-I subs are floated out,not until 2025.More on this below.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 730200.cms
India kick-starts ‘mother of all underwater defence deals’

Rajat Pandit | TNN | Updated: Jul 24, 2017, 01:45 PM IST
HIGHLIGHTS
6 countries are in the fray to build six advanced stealth submarines for an estimated Rs 70,000 crore in collaboration with an Indian shipyard.
This conventional submarine programme called Project-75 (India) is likely to be the first mega project under the new ‘strategic partnership’ policy.
India kick-starts ‘mother of all underwater defence deals’
NEW DELHI: India has finally kick-started its "mother of all underwater defence deals" after an excruciating 10-year delay, with France, Germany, Russia, Sweden, Spain and Japan being in the fray to build six advanced stealth submarines for an estimated Rs 70,000 crore ($10.9 billion) in collaboration with an Indian shipyard.

This conventional submarine programme called Project-75 (India), languishing in politico-bureaucratic apathy, files and committees since it got the government's "acceptance of necessity" way back in November 2007, is likely to be the first mega project under the new "strategic partnership" policy finalized by the defence ministry in May.

But it's early days yet. The six shipbuilders, Naval Group-DCNS (France), ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau (Russia), Navantia (Spain), Saab (Sweden) and the Mitsubishi-Kawasaki Heavy Industries combine (Japan), have to first respond to the RFI (request for information) issued to them last week by September 15, say officials.
The Navy will then formulate the NSQRs (naval staff qualitative requirements) before the formal RFP (request for proposal) is issued to the six for submitting their technical and commercial bids for evaluation. The Indian shipyard for the strategic partnership with the selected foreign collaborator will be chosen in a parallel process.

"It may take around two years for the original equipment manufacturer (OEM)-Indian shipyard combine to be down-selected. Moreover, the first new submarine will roll out only seven to eight years after the final contract is inked. But the aim is to fast-track the entire process," said a defence ministry official.
The Navy wants the six new diesel-electric submarines to have land-attack cruise missiles, air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance and the capability to integrate indigenous weapons and sensors as and when they are developed.
"The stress will be on transfer of technology from the OEM and indigenization. The submarines, to be built with indigenous steel, should also be less maintenance-intensive to ensure a better operational cycle with minimal downtime," said the official.
As per approved plans, the Navy should have 18 diesel-electric submarines+ as well as six nuclear-powered attack submarines (called SSNs) and four nuclear-powered submarines with long-range nuclear-tipped missiles (SSBNs) for effective deterrence against China and Pakistan, as was earlier reported by TOI.

But the force is grappling with just 13 old conventional submarines+ , only half of them operational at any given time because at least 10 of them are over 25 years old, apart from two nuclear-powered submarines, INS Arihant (SSBN) and INS Chakra (SSN).

The six French Scorpene diesel-electric submarines being built in Mazagon Docks under the Rs 23,652 crore Project-75, after an over four-year delay, will all be delivered by 2021. But by then, many of the 13 existing submarines will be up for retirement despite mid-life upgrades and refits.

While Russia, Germany and France already have submarine-building experience in India, the possibility of Japan also being included as a contender for Project-75 (I) was first reported by TOI in January 2015. Given the personal chemistry and the desire to deepen the bilateral strategic ties between PMs Narendra Modi and Shinzo Abe, India had then asked Japan if it was interested in offering its latest 4,200-tonne Soryu-class submarines for Project-75 (India).
But even though Japan has junked its decades old self-imposed arms export embargo, it has little experience in hawking its military products in the global arms market. "Project-75 (I) may just be the right arena for Japan," said an official.


PS: Some thoughts.

A large conventional AIP sub,"pretender" to be an N-sub will never be able to match a genuine N-sub's capabilities.The cost too will be exceptionally high,at least 75% of that of an N-sub. This is because the larger a conventional sub gets,the greater its power reqs. which have a cascading effect all round. The beauty of a conventional sub is its small size,able to prowl around in the shallow waters of the littorals relatively undetected,able to take on even an N-sub and win,as did our Ru Kilo against a USN Los Angeles SSN in a recent exercise. Now the double-hulled Kilo is almost 3000t but just $300M+,being built in just 2 years,in production for both the RuN and export. A 4000t+ Soryu would be extremely expensive,and far less capable of our planned SSNs for blue water duties.The subs currently being built by the other contenders would serve us better.

The number mentioned for the IN's sub fleet is also inadequate. We need at least 24 conventional AIP subs,of which 1/3rd could be of a around 3000t with a VLS module for larger land attack missiles,while the others are tasked primarily for the hunter-killer biz, considering that our principal threat in the next decade+ will be from the 80+ PLAN and 12+ PN subs.6 SSNs will also be inadequate unless we also possess around 4 SSGNs ,like modified Akulas,which have a heavy payload of 40 torpedoes and missiles.Leasing two more Akulas which could arrive within 3-4 years from existing RuN numbers will give us a formidable LR strike capability ,where these subs could operate in the Indo-China Sea on 90+ day patrols,even more when serviced out of the A&N islands,where sub-tenders/sub support facilities should be located.The SSBNs will of course be dedicated to the strat. deterrent and therefore will not be available for general naval duties. Why we need at least 36-40 subs overall is because at any given time,at least 1/3rd of the fleet will be inoperable,being refitted/repaired,reg. maintenance,crew rotation,etc.The combined Chinese and Paki subs available could be as high as 18-24 in a crisis,in an attempt to overwhelm the IN's sub fleet. Once the facilities are complete at Gwadar and Djibouti,Chinese subs both N and conventional will be permanently stationed in the IOR,with extra logistic support in Burma,and perhaps Sri Lanka and the Maldives

We therefore need at least 3 types of conventional/AIP subs with tech from both east and west. Right now the latest we have is from the French (Scorpenes),but the French are going to give OZ even better subs with tech that they've promised "will never be given to India".Therefore,other than a small "top up" of AIP Scorpenes -again if the price is right,could happen at MDL ,but after the Scorpene sub details leak,the IN isn't too keen on this from some reports.All our Kilos are long in the tooth and are undergoing their second refit! These will have to be replaced from 2020+ onwards.A new line of more advanced Ru AIP subs is needed.Either the Amur/Lada or even the new Kalina ,construction yet to begin.This could best be done in a G-to-G deal.The third line therefore is either Swedish or German.

I would opt for the German U-boats for three reasons.One, we've had decades of operating the U-209/1500s,and could build upon this knowledge and experience operating newer U-boats,follow-ons to the 209s. MDL had earlier experience of building these subs and there must be some residue capability.Secondly,the Swedish AIP system is being used by the Pakis and Chinese aboard their Chinese designed subs,using the Stirling engine AIP system. India and Russia are working on diesel fuel recovery AIP systems say reports,while the Germans use the fuel-cell method.The German AIP fuel cell tech is a tried and tested one. Thirdly,Israel is also acquiring more German Dolphin class U-boats. These subs,like N-boats,have two sets of tubes,one larger than the std. 533mm. This is because these tubes carry Israel's larger dia N-tipped N-deterrence. The same could be equally advantageous to India which will need to fire BMos-L,and gvien our v.close mil cooperation with Israel,take similar advantage of operating a somewhat similar design,esp. when we're collaborating on a variety of missile projects.

Therefore in short, two lines of conventional AIP subs,plus SSBN and SSN construction as well as leasing SSGNs from Russia would give the IN a superb sub force quite capable of taking the UW battle to China's backyard,the Indo-China Sea.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 30 Jul 2017 16:27

Since RFI for P-75I has been issued, I have a feeling there would be no follow on orders for scorpene. Since the SP process is targeted to be completed by 2019, and last of the scorpenes is slated to be delivered by 2021 hoping to see first of p-75i steel cutting by 2022.
So Where will NMRL's AIP be fitted into?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 31 Jul 2017 01:57

Interesting to see that the U-214 is mentioned, not the U-216.
Again this is like the MMRCA contest, a mish mash of submarines of varying tonnages, with and without AIP.

The MMRCA was a curious competition, which had both single and twin engined planes.
The P-75I has both AIP and non-AIP subs, some subs are just paper subs. The price of the Amur class is highly inflated, while that of the U-214 seems to be low.

Strange and mysterious are the ways of the wise minds at Nau Sena Bhawan indeed !

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2017 05:40

Of all the contenders, the Soryu is the only serious player...apart from the Type 212, which is not on offer. A Type 216 with the Type 212's non magnetic hull would be a formidable player though.

Put the BrahMos plug on the six planned SSNs. That should not be a stumbling block (i.e. delays) for P75I. We need modern boats and many of them, like ASAP.

The problem with the Soryus is both Japan and India. The former does not know how to the compete in the international arms market and the latter plays a gentleman's game of cricket with military purchases.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jul 2017 07:02

Problem with non-magnetic hull of U-212 is that it isn't strong enough to dive much deep, unlike our subs that can easily go 300 meters.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 31 Jul 2017 07:36

Manish-ji, the Type 212 and Kilo (Sindhugosh Class) boats both have a similar diving depth. The Type 209s (Shishumar Class) have a far greater diving depth, while the Type 214 has a depth similar to the Kilo and Type 212.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prasad » 31 Jul 2017 08:41

The Japanese got mauled by DCNS in the Oz sub competition. They'd be willing to do this deal in a heartbeat. Dunno why this fetish of tendering out eveything. They climbed down from their high perch to letting oz build the subs with oz personnel after negotiations and still lost. We could build these subs at Mazgaon and another port simultaneously and churn out two subs at a time. PLAN has a facility to build 4 at a time although whether they will do so is a big ?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jul 2017 08:57

Rakesh wrote:Manish-ji, the Type 212 and Kilo (Sindhugosh Class) boats both have a similar diving depth. The Type 209s (Shishumar Class) have a far greater diving depth, while the Type 214 has a depth similar to the Kilo and Type 212.


Rakesh Saar, I have read another more detailed article but can't find it right now:

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... -any-21021
The Type 212’s double hull displaces 1,800 tons submerged, and is made of nonmagnetic materials so that it is not susceptible to detection by magnetic anomaly detectors. The softer metal limits the operational depth to just two hundred meters, but this is not a major limitation in shallow Baltic waters. The Type 212’s fuel cells, with hydrogen fuel stored in between the outer and inner pressure hulls, allow it to sail underwater for three weeks before surfacing. Reportedly, a Type 212A set an underwater endurance record for conventionally powered submarines in 2013 by transiting eighteen days submerged without use of its snorkel. While the Type 212 can achieve underwater speeds of up to twenty-three miles per hour, its sustainable cruising speed is closer to nine miles per hour while using just the AIP system.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 31 Jul 2017 09:08

The P-75I will likely be a MKIsed version of the above subs, and I will add the Type 216 to the list along with the Soryu as the front runners.
That is the only way, both an AIP and a Brahmos plug can be put in.
One can expect the Brahmos M or Brahmos Lite version to be hopefully be ready by the time these subs start touching the water, and so maybe that missile can be launched through the torpedo tubes

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 31 Jul 2017 09:10

soryu and dolphin are both proven in service. of the two, soryu will more easily accomodate a additional section for 8-12 brahmos/nirbhay which is a must for a platform that will serve until 2050 atleast. soryu will also feature the Li-ion fuel cell tech said to be uber tfta thought i believe IN also likes the siemens PEM tech on U-boats. japanis are secretive about their soryu2 li-ion how its coming along or maybe english language media never picks up those details.

http://w3app.siemens.com/mcms/infocente ... -cells.pdf

both are stubborn hidebound types and not as agile as the french in chasing deals, and remains to be seen who is more amenable to localising and fitting indian weapons and sensors.

I would say the french will win this one offering a enlarge scorpene and ji huzooring every wishlist of ours :D in wheeling dealing none matches them on the arms front except UK. carrot will be making use of the shore infra to build and service the scorpene and spreading around on deputation some of the trained manpower to get things started .

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 31 Jul 2017 09:12

My dream is that L&T, Walchandnagar, Naval Design build an indian designed conventional sub as a science project, and run it for a few years and fine tune it.
Make the sub like 3000-4000 tons, with DRDO's AIP, 4 cell VLS plug etc, at least 2 week submerged endurance etc.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 31 Jul 2017 09:14

I think the boat on that sailed out a while ago. what you say makes sense if it started off in 2007. cheen has been making imitations of soviet era designs since 1960s. however as a glass half full +ve neuj I am sure they are all deep in our SSN & SSBN design and production planning with Arihant line stabilized and aridaman about to roll out.

ideally both our new SSN and SSBN construction should start in parallel with adequate spaces to deliver one every 18 months once the initial ones roll out. they need higher power and longer life reactors.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 31 Jul 2017 09:17

Singha wrote:I would say the french will win this one offering a enlarge scorpene and ji huzooring every wishlist of ours :D in wheeling dealing none matches them on the arms front except UK. carrot will be making use of the shore infra to build and service the scorpene and spreading around on deputation some of the trained manpower to get things started .

I suspect the Germans will win this one. Hope it is a 216, not a 212. The Japanese are still 'negotiating' the sea-planes !

Singha wrote:I think the boat on that sailed out a while ago. what you say makes sense if it started off in 2007. cheen has been making imitations of soviet era designs since 1960s.

Really sad and a big missed opportunity for the IN. They can build N subs in India, but because they can Import conventional subs, there is no need felt to build and work on an indigenous design

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 31 Jul 2017 09:19

any of the candidates for p75i will work so long as they pack in 8-12 vl cells. all are the best ssk out there. rest is cost and tot.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 31 Jul 2017 10:36

I never heard of any reports complaining about ToT or production problems with Shishumar subs or L52 gun ToT unlike problems with greedy frogs in scorpene and tincan gun barrel by cheating natashas. I think Shri Parrikar also praised Germans last year in this regard.

Frogs already refused F21 torpedoes for Aridhamans while Germans are ready for mfrg. Seahakes mod4 torpedoes here.

Another minus point about Japanese is that they retire there subs in 16 to 20 years. While our forces prefer Dada Banaaye Pota Battery model due to low budgets spent by us on defence.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srin » 31 Jul 2017 19:00

Singha wrote:any of the candidates for p75i will work so long as they pack in 8-12 vl cells. all are the best ssk out there. rest is cost and tot.


Why do we care about vls for Brahmos ? In a few years, Brahmos-M can be fired out of TTs, no ?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 31 Jul 2017 20:01

One salivating prospect with the Japanese is getting GS yuasa to set up li-ion factiry in india. Also might get tfta power electronics that kawasaki and mitsubhishi use in their motors etc.

Meanwhile The french are trying to sell a maintainence contract with hardly a year has passed for 1st scorpene.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Gagan » 31 Jul 2017 20:05

Manish_Sharma wrote:Frogs already refused F21 torpedoes for Aridhamans while Germans are ready for mfrg. Seahakes mod4 torpedoes here.

Another minus point about Japanese is that they retire there subs in 16 to 20 years. While our forces prefer Dada Banaaye Pota Battery model due to low budgets spent by us on defence.

The Seahakes Mod 4 DM2A4 is in service the the El Bakistan Behriya on their Agosta 90Bs
IN probably studying the torpedo behavior

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 31 Jul 2017 21:50

A 3000t large ssk will have a torpedo room for around 25 weapons at most. You want to keep that for mines hwt mostly so little room for nirbhay or brahmos thats why 8 tube vls is handy

A 9000t seawolf sub has a weapons room sized for 60 weapons
A virginia has slight less internal weapons but new uvls
9000t yasen has room for 48 cell uvls and then internal weapons

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 31 Jul 2017 22:16

Whatever SSKs will target using BrahMos, it can be done using from missile batteries on land such as AN Islands. When we have plans for 6 SSNs now, I don't think our SSKs will range too deep into IOR. Increasing the size of SSK just to accommodate heavy missiles will only increase their costs, which are roughly as much as SSN.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 31 Jul 2017 22:49

If they are to be coastal subs why go for aip then?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 31 Jul 2017 23:01

AIP will enable for longer submergence and need not be viewed in terms of range. A battery of BrahMos near Indira Point will lock the exit from Malacca Straits. Similarly, Gujarat coast to the mount of Gulf of Oman is 900 KM. We can use Nirbhays in this case. My point was, when you have SSN plans, why would you plan your SSKs to venture deep into IOR or into SCS. Going for larger and more expensive SSPs with VLS would have made sense if we didn't have SSN plans.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 01 Aug 2017 06:19

Soryu can go to depth of 2132 feet that is 649 meters. :shock:

Range is 6500 miles.


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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 01 Aug 2017 07:48

could be crush depth. most of the modern SSN have a test depth of 500m but seldom venture deeper than 250.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 10 Aug 2017 15:41


Soryu: A Blue Dragon on the horizon for India?

Published August 9, 2017

SOURCE: Harsha Paike / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

The Project-75I tender has got quite interesting in the current scenario after the Soryu class submarines have entered the fray. The Soryu class is an evolution of the previous Oyashio-class and is named after mythological blue dragons.

Although the deal is still at a raw stage, the timing has become crucial. But why does the entry of Soryu make it interesting now? For three key reasons. Firstly for Geopolitical reasons: With bilateral and defence ties between India and Japan growing steadily when both are tied up in territorial disputes with China, it opens up a number of possibilities.

Till now India and Japan had the US acting as the link in the South China sea and the Indian ocean. Japan is presented with an opportunity to gain invaluable support from India which allows much more breathing space for it in the Indian ocean region if required. Such a foothold in the region works well for both countries and it allows for significant manoeuvring for both in the region.

From India’s perspective, it counters China’s “string of pearls” strategy by splitting the “string” in the Indian ocean. The deal if signed will be working at a pace dictated by the increasing need for both India and Japan to secure the maritime passage which is already threatened by China’s aggressive posturing.

Japan’s Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is dealing with a steep fall in approval ratings and might have to deal with reduced US naval presence in the region as the focus for US shifts from China to North Korea. Stronger defence ties with India might be the answer for it as it can possibly prevent China from linking the Indian Ocean and the South China sea completely.

With the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) signing, India has been teasing crucial BrahMos sales with Vietnam and also searching for any options to gain any foothold in the region.

It will be a major boost if this deal goes in favour of Japan. Russia is under a severe cash crunch due to the sanctions from the west and does not have anything else to gain from the deal except financially. Amongst all the countries in the bid at the moment, only Japan stands to gain excluding the financial aspect.

Secondly for technological factors of the submarines in the fray: Known to be probably the most silent submarine compared to any other today, the reason for its extreme stealthiness is a well-kept secret.

Japanese technology in terms of silent propeller mechanisms has a proven track record and a reputation for being the quietest in the world. It has got the Swedish Kockums Stirling AIP(Air Independent system) manufactured under licence by Kawasaki Heavy industries and also its known to be the first submarine class to be installed with Lithium Ion batteries in the latter vessels.

Adding to the stealth is anechoic tiles covering the entire submarine. It has a displacement of 4200 tonnes which makes it one of the bigger diesel electric submarines in the world which implies a much larger payload making it an efficient stand-alone hunter-killer submarine. And thirdly the economics behind the whole Project.

The Soryu class is significantly cheaper than others when normalised to its size with a rough price tag of $540 ? 550 million dollars and already 4 vessels have been commissioned.

A rough comparison for eg:- S-80 submarine of Navantia which is almost a third of Soryu’s size is tagged at nearly $680 ? 700 million dollars. Also, the manufacturing of Soryu has been at a steady rate implying it has overcome the initial teething manufacturing problems for any new design.


DCNS has hurriedly offered the “Super Scorpene” which is still a design concept like the U-216 of Germany’s HDW as well as the Amur of Rosoboronexport. The recent data leak of DCNS has cast doubts on how much of the crucial details have been exposed.

India has got a chance to play its cards right and wait for China’s move in the next year. Moreover, it can get an opportunity to tilt the dynamics into its favour forcing China to adopt a reactionary role.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/soryu-a-blue-dragon-on- ... for-india/

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 10 Aug 2017 21:25

The article is wrong on cost. The Soryu is among the most expensive of diesel electric submarines, but it is one amazing boat. Well worth the price.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cosmo_R » 10 Aug 2017 22:43

The Soryu is going nowhere unless India/Japan do a 'bullet train' kind of deal. They fund it at concessionary rates against IN orders and it is a government to government deal. Else, the whole thing will be a repeat of the MMRCA farce.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 10 Aug 2017 22:46

That will be great for us. As Suresh Prabhu said not even Father in Law would give such a huge loan at such terms.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Anurag » 10 Aug 2017 23:27

Rakesh wrote:The article is wrong on cost. The Soryu is among the most expensive of diesel electric submarines, but it is one amazing boat. Well worth the price.


It's cheaper than the Scorpene deal.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 11 Aug 2017 00:57

Gagan wrote:
Singha wrote:I would say the french will win this one offering a enlarge scorpene and ji huzooring every wishlist of ours :D in wheeling dealing none matches them on the arms front except UK. carrot will be making use of the shore infra to build and service the scorpene and spreading around on deputation some of the trained manpower to get things started .

I suspect the Germans will win this one. Hope it is a 216, not a 212. The Japanese are still 'negotiating' the sea-planes !

Singha wrote:I think the boat on that sailed out a while ago. what you say makes sense if it started off in 2007. cheen has been making imitations of soviet era designs since 1960s.

Really sad and a big missed opportunity for the IN. They can build N subs in India, but because they can Import conventional subs, there is no need felt to build and work on an indigenous design


the seaplanes make for bad economics boss !! .. they might be worth the effort after 5 years ..but then again have our MOD babus shown that level of foresight :mrgreen:

kit
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 11 Aug 2017 00:57

Karthik S wrote:That will be great for us. As Suresh Prabhu said not even Father in Law would give such a huge loan at such terms.


:rotfl:

Cosmo_R
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cosmo_R » 11 Aug 2017 01:26

Karthik S wrote:That will be great for us. As Suresh Prabhu said not even Father in Law would give such a huge loan at such terms.


Depends on the father in law. Marry well.
Last edited by Cosmo_R on 11 Aug 2017 16:42, edited 1 time in total.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 Aug 2017 03:28

I hope Modi does another surprise move and makes govt to govt FM's deal for 9 Soryu subs.

3 can be ready-made from Japan. 6 mfrd here. in fact those 3 can just stay at japanese ports and our navy crews just roam around in Indo-Pacific sea (wrongly called SCS) mapping, recording Cheeni platforms. Just Shinzo has to show some guts and allow Nirbhay or mini Shaurya BGRV missiles on it.

Cosmo_R
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cosmo_R » 11 Aug 2017 16:59

Further on the 'Bullet Train' way to do the Soryu. I would guess that the Japanese have learned that they cannot jump start their MIC exports by trying to mimic long time players or to hold out gauzy visions of 'strategic collaboration'.

"Japan was slow to commit to build all vessels at South Australian shipyards, a politically significant pledge that both DCNS and TKMS made quickly.

At the same time, DCNS and TKMS pledged to share sensitive technology with the Australian government and promised packages of economic incentives. "

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austr ... SKCN0UZ316

Structurally, there are no reasons why you cannot template the BT project to the Soryu. When the BT was up for discussion, no one thought it had a chance of seeing daylight. The Japanese are realizing how much power and influence you can wield with arms sales, even as you invest in something other than domestic infrastructure and highways to nowhere.

The Japanese have also learned that pushing stuff like the US2 to India even at 'discounts', doesn't work.

Put the two 'lessons' together and you can do the Soryu more creatively (and quickly) than by the usual "Another Indian Submarine Tender" inspired by 9333 'specified requirements' that only draw the customary smirk from vendors who say" Sure, we can do that, how clever of you. Only minor up charge and consider it a ToT."

Well, there's always hope that we do things differently to get different results.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 17:04

Cosmo_R wrote:
Karthik S wrote:That will be great for us. As Suresh Prabhu said not even Father in Law would give such a huge loan at such terms.

Depends on the father in law. Marry well.

The greatest piece of advice ever on BRF. Yes marry well indeed :)

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 17:10

The last three Soryu boats (8-126, 8-127 and 8-128) are to have lithium ion batteries in lieu of the AIP system. Supposed to be even more reliable than the previous boats in the class. I hope the Soryu is selected for that, among other reasons. As Manish said, split the deal.....three directly from Japan and the remaining six in India.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 11 Aug 2017 20:09

The Soryu was KO'd in the great OZ sub contest,coming in as an also ran to the German and French boats. moreover,Japan is the sole user unlike Gerna,French and Swedish subs,which are in use the world over proving their capability in different waters. Its size is such becos Japan possesses no N-subs,which have a far greater capability.The Soryu is the "poor man's N-sub". Not that it comes cheap,quite the contrary.In the Indian context where we will /operate Akula SSGNs and will in the future operate at least 6 SSNs,the need for such a alarge conventional boat which will cost almost as much as an N-sub,is superfluous. Unfortunately OZ cannot even operate its Collins class boats properly,why its politicos rejected calls for acquiring N-subs which the US may have sold it as a close ally.That's why it wanted larger AIP boats

The current gold std. in silence of conventional boats is the venerable Kilo 636.3,of which Russia is acquiring/building another 12 at the mouth-watering price of around $300M a boat.
Two more Amurs have also just been ordered.These are supposed to be even better than the Kilos but as of now no AIP system has been perfected for the same,but expected before 2020 and will be on the new Kalina class of which little news has emerged.L&T and Rubin signed an agreement to work on an AIP system,seems to be the fuel recovery system,as diff. from the German fuel-cell tech. The Soryu is also larger than what the IN wants,since we possess/will possess more N-boats ,both SSGNs and SSNs.From the recent experience in Syria,where Russian subs and small corvettes launched dozens of Kalibir missile precision strikes against ISIS,the ability to launch BMos (and LRCMs like Nirbhay when perfected),etc. is a fundamental.Whether the European designs can do this remains to be seen,sinc eBMos is a JV with Russia who would not want its tech/ability to feature on a rival firang sub.

The GOI to save much time,should've gone in for a G-to-G deal with the Germans for more U-boats to replace the U-209s in service,long in the tooth too.We need far more subs than just 24 .Perhaps a few more Scorpenes if the cost remains the same,a new line of German U-boats and the best Ru conventional AIP sub available to replace the Kilos,preferably the Kalina when it arrives.
A total of around 24- conventional/AIP subs added to the 12-14 N-boats would be the bare min. reqd. for the UW fleet given the huge 80+ and Paki 12+ numbers that we will have to encounter.In addition,a decent number of mini-subs and UUCVs will be required for long-endurance ops sanitising our coastline/naval bases and ports and chokepoints.In WW2,the Japanese were able to take their midget subs all the way to Pearl Harbour and research a couple of years ago,found that one sub actually penetrated the harbour and launched a torpedo strike against the berrhted fleet.
Last edited by Philip on 11 Aug 2017 20:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 11 Aug 2017 20:14

I'd choose Japanese equipment over others any day. Also, we can leverage on this deal immensely in terms of infra development, HSR, highways in NE or industrial corridors.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 21:18

Anurag wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The article is wrong on cost. The Soryu is among the most expensive of diesel electric submarines, but it is one amazing boat. Well worth the price.

It's cheaper than the Scorpene deal.

Saar, as per wiki chacha...the six Scorpenes cost us $500 million per boat or $3 billion USD in total.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalvari-class_submarine

The Kokuryū - the sixth Soryu boat - cost $540 million. A lithium-ion equipped Soryu is estimated to cost nearly the same amount. And this is for the Japanese Navy. A foreign order will cost more. But still worth the cost, considering the capability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry ... _submarine


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