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Project 75I- It Begins

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astal
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby astal » 11 Aug 2017 21:29

Rakesh Saar,
Actually the article talks about cost per tonnage. Weight in this case is highly correlated with capabilities. The size of the batteries increases silent operation time. The weapons load-out is also greater.

I think that the message to the bean counters is that in the case of this tender, L1 is not the right approach. They need to look at cost as a function of capability. Otherwise the French as usual will do their bait and switch like they did with Rafale and Scorpene. I hope the Navy can craft a suitable criteria set based on points and MOD procurement babus look at cost vs capabilities. From what it available it seems like Soryu is a formidable boat. Building and operating it will not only directly provide the Navy with enhanced capabilities but also positively contribute to India's nuclear sub effort.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 22:29

astal, I guess I missed that part. I was looking at overall cost. Please advise / elaborate more on cost per tonnage. thank you.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 Aug 2017 23:03

Philip wrote:The current gold std. in silence of conventional boats is the venerable Kilo 636.3,of which Russia is acquiring/building another 12 at the mouth-watering price of around $300M a boat.


:rotfl:

Current Gold platinum silver all standards for accidents are russian boats. They blow up standing in pier while loading.

Kursk.... Another accidents like

Our Schuka B had fire accident too.

How come same navy operates Shishumar German subs and there is no accidents? Answer = inherent russian patheticness incompetence.

Kilos are only 75 days availability per year vs German 340 days availability.

Russian torpedoes are also rejected now for Aridaman as they are too unstable / primitive and dangerous to their own boats.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 Aug 2017 23:06

Karthik S wrote:I'd choose Japanese equipment over others any day. Also, we can leverage on this deal immensely in terms of infra development, HSR, highways in NE or industrial corridors.


Also efficient Japanese would have built good library of cheen ships and subs, they would upload those too on Soryu for our Navy too. 8)

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2017 14:14

Yes,our Kilos are nearing 3 decades of superb service! Undergoing second refits-unheard of.Try running a 30 yr old car and see what happens,esp. if St.Anthony denies you new batteries and you have to cannibalise them from other subs.The SR tragedy was not a loss at sea due to systems malfunction,etc., but due to faulty procedure in loading weapons onto the sub.
Failure by the then govt. to see that spars/support for the sub fleet was the main cause for the mishaps and the then CNS resigned in protest.
What happened at a previous US-India naval exercise when an IN Kilo "sank" a USN Los Angeles N-boat? No one has denigrated the U-boats,but why have we until recently refused to exercise our Kilos with other navies? The boat is so successful that Russia is acquiring,building another 12,Vietnam has just got 6 -built in record time at just $300M a boat too and there are other export deals in the offing.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... lear-14473
Dave Majumdar
December 1, 2015
The Indian media is claiming that one of New Delhi’s Russian-built Kilo-class diesel-electric attack submarines managed to “sink” a nuclear-powered U.S. Navy Los Angeles-class attack submarine during exercises in October.

The Indian submarine INS Sindhudhvaj (S56) allegedly “killed” USS City of Corpus Christi (SSN 705) during an exercise called Malabar that is held annually between India, Japan and the United States. According to the Indians, the submarines were assigned to track each other down in the Bay of Bengal. “The way it happens is that the Sindhudhvaj recorded the Hydrophonic Effect (HE) - simply put, underwater noise - of the nuclear powered submarine and managed to positively identify it before locking on to it. Being an exercise what did not happen was the firing,” an Indian naval officer told India Today. The Indian vessel then “sank” USS City of Corpus Christi using 533mm torpedoes.


Some xcpts:
The Kilo-Class Submarine: Why Russia's Enemies Fear "The Black Hole"
Kyle Mizokami is a defense and national security writer based in San Francisco who has appeared in the Diplomat, Foreign Policy, War is Boring and the Daily Beast. In 2009 he cofounded the defense and security blog Japan Security Watch. You can follow him on Twitter: @KyleMizokami.

The mainstay of the Russian Navy’s conventionally powered fleet are Project 877–class submarines, known as the Kilo class to NATO and the West. Nicknamed the “Black Hole” submarine by the U.S. Navy, the Improved Kilos are extremely quiet. The class has been built more or less continuously for thirty years, a testament to their effectiveness at sea.

A lot of silencing went into the Kilos. The hull is described as having the approximate shape of a drop of water and greatly reducing water resistance over older, World War II–era submarine designs. The propulsion plant is isolated on a rubber base so it doesn’t touch the hull, preventing vibrations from turning into noise that can be heard outside the boat. The ship has a rubbery anechoic coating to deaden noise emanating from the submarine, which occasionally gives the submarines a blocky appearance noticeable in photographs. The air regeneration system can keep the crew supplied with oxygen for up to 260 hours, giving the ship almost two weeks’ worth of underwater endurance.


The 636.3 class was an all-around upgrade. The dimensions of the submarine are essentially the same, but the bow has been reshaped to improve hydrodynamic flow. It features improved quietness due to further isolation of the machinery, moving other machinery to areas where they would make less noise. The submarine also has 25 percent greater range than previous versions. Major sonar systems however are largely the same as in the original Kilo class.

One major improvement of the 636.3 class is the ability to launch Kalibur cruise missiles. Kalibur (the export version is known as Klub) is a versatile class of missile with land-attack, antiship, and antisubmarine warfare versions. In December 2016, the Russian submarine Rostov-on-Don launched Kalibur land-attack missiles against Islamic State.


Vietnam bought six 636.3 boats, with five so far delivered, as the nucleus of an anti-access/area denial force against its traditional enemy, China. The two countries have a history of mutual hostility, currently stoked by Chinese oil drilling in a contested Exclusive Economic Zone and competing claims in the South China Sea. Vietnam purchased six submarines for an estimated $1.8 billion dollars—a real bargain.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2017 14:38

Two articles to look at in the search for our P-75I.

OZ's Shortfin Barracuda may be too large -analysis.The Soryu is in the same size class and will suffer the same limitations.The IN's search appears to be for a sub 25% lesser in size,around 3000t+,becos we are to build a fleet of 6+ SSNs too.
http://gentleseas.blogspot.in/2015/08/w ... e-too.html

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... lthy-17964
Russia's Next Submarines Will Be Small, Super Stealthy and Multirole?

Smaller dedicated task subs instead of larger "jack of all.." ones.More lethal attack subs .Some talk of Russia resurrecting the Alfa sub concept.They were the fastest subs ever built,hulls entirely out of titanium,why their high cost led to the Akula class instead.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Aug 2017 15:26

Strange these procedural mistakes never happen on German OR other west been subs, but only russian ones.

Since accident IN doesn't want russian torpedoes on Aridaman also.

I think I detect fear and panic in russian patriots that if people see all 3 Japanese, french & German subs faultlessly, then russian patheticness will stand exposed.

Hence this writhing like fish without water at Soryu possibility. Khalbali much gayi hai!!!

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_P » 12 Aug 2017 17:41

Philip wrote:Some talk of Russia resurrecting the Alfa sub concept.They were the fastest subs ever built..


And the loudest.. (and practically deaf) at those speeds.

Quiet a big disadvantage in a game where stealth is the big stick.

Besides they were a maintenance nightmare since the metallurgy with titanium was not as advanced nor were the automated on-board systems (made necessary by the fewer crew complement - which was forced by the smaller size ) as reliable as they are now.

Titanium has it's advantages - lighter, low-magnetic, corrosion-resistant but the disadvantages of extremely high cost, more brittleness over diving cycles etc far outweighed them at the time.. and may do so even today.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Aug 2017 18:49

Actually if one is not hung up on the well-being of russia and looks from the angle of Bharatvarsh's self interest, extra large, more range and high availability LiOn run Soryu will give us option for special forces and missiles, while without baggage and expensiveness of nuclear subs. Imagine a super silent battery run Soryu unloading special forces near enemy's coast. Then unleashing missile attack while any has no clue where it is. It disappears 450 meter below out of enemy torpedoes and subs.
________________________--__-

Cross posting from Armour thread:

Gyan wrote:T-90 breaks down in the host nation, in moderate climate, the breakdown is evidently severe & tank cannot be repaired. Not one but Both the tanks break down, these would be obviously the best tanks & not over used ones. But no chest beating in media. Hail Import lobby for its efficiency.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Aug 2017 18:21

:x

No takers for construction of India’s Next Generation of Nuclear Submarines

http://defenceupdate.in/no-takers-for-c ... rines/amp/

While the Indian Navy badly needs nuclear submarines to bolster its strength underwater as well as replace ailing fleet, it is not finding any builders to take up the project. It should be recalled that the Union government announced that six nuclear submarines would be built, following clearance given by the Cabinet committee on security.

The project was estimated to cost Rs 50,000 crore and would have given a boost to the ailing shipyard. The submarines were to be designed by navy’s Directorate of Naval Design. Even the state-owned Hindustan Shipyard said that it will not build nuclear submarine in its yard. “We will not build any nuclear submarine for the Indian Navy,” said chairman and managing director of Hindustan Shipyard Limited Rear Admiral (retired) LV Sharatbabu.

He refused to elaborate further. Even Reliance Defence and Engineering is not coming forward to develop its shipyard at Rambilli village in the district, though the company had signed a MoU with the state government during partnership summit here in 2016.It should be noted that the Reliance Defence and Engineering has proposed to build nuclear submarines and much needed aircraft carriers for the Indian Navy in association with Russian companies.

“They are yet to come forward to take up the project. The government has already issued a GO paving the way for allotment of land,” said general manager of District Industries Centre A Ramalingewara Rao.Indian Navy has 13 conventional submarines and two nuclear powered submarines-INS Chakra taken on lease from Russia in 2012 and INS Arihant which was de-commissioned quietly in October last year.

Defence sources said half of the conventional submarines are aged and ready for medium refit. Indian Navy badly needs more submarines to counter the presence of Chinese submarines in the Indian Ocean. Chinese submarines came close to Indian waters six times during the last few years.


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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 13 Aug 2017 18:25

Can state owned entities say NO to the government? What could be the reason for the refusal, is it financial, technical or political?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby abhik » 13 Aug 2017 18:55

The article is a confused mess, better to wait for a more credible DDM source.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Aug 2017 14:06

Crossposting from Newbie thread:

There was video on brf showing a tug pulling aircraft carrier kuznetzov.

Has there been any example of underwater tugs for submarines? As ssk ranges are short, I was thinking to use underwater tugs pulling Scorpene subs to Indo-China Pacific ON THE LINES OF OUR OSA MISSILE BOATS TUGGED TO KARACHI HARBOUR DUE TO THEIR SHORT RANGE.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby prasannasimha » 14 Aug 2017 14:10

Tug pulling a submarine means you are declaring its position so in essence it is useless and a boat would do just as well !

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Aug 2017 14:12

I meant an underwater tug, not surface tug.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 14 Aug 2017 22:09

Manish-ji: it is best to let the sub travel under her own power. An underwater tug (is there such a thing?) could be noisy and easily cause the boat to be detected.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 14 Aug 2017 23:11

Manish_Sharma wrote:Crossposting from Newbie thread:

There was video on brf showing a tug pulling aircraft carrier kuznetzov.

Has there been any example of underwater tugs for submarines? As ssk ranges are short, I was thinking to use underwater tugs pulling Scorpene subs to Indo-China Pacific ON THE LINES OF OUR OSA MISSILE BOATS TUGGED TO KARACHI HARBOUR DUE TO THEIR SHORT RANGE.


Soryu may fill in the above role on its own power.
Scorpene and HDW may be used for paki coastal duty.
Natasha may provide escort services to IAC.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Aug 2017 23:19

Rakesh Saar it was just an idea that popped remembering our Osa boats tugged to Karachi due to short legs. I asked and search google mamaa if underwater submarine tugs exist or ever experimented. You are right they aren't.

So Soryu it has to be as Arvin Saar says.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 15 Aug 2017 02:06

Manish-ji: The more I read up on the Soryu Class, I do not know which other boat can exceed what the IN is expecting in Project 75I.


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