Project 75I - It Begins

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Prem Kumar »

Agree with Pratyush:

1) Order additional Scorpenes to maintain force levels
2) Create a common indigenous design for VLS/AIP SSKs and SSNs. Build it locally. Get some French consulting where needed. Call this new line of SSKs our P75-I
3) Give them the big bucks by insisting on ToT for Safran jet engine. We desperately need tech-infusion in jet engines. Not so for submarines. Macron gets the money & face-saver. We get the tech.
Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5128
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_Sharma »

German-Norweigian 212CD will have to be double hull design as the triangular shaped top hull won't be good to take pressure:

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Prem Kumar wrote:Agree with Pratyush:

1) Order additional Scorpenes to maintain force levels
2) Create a common indigenous design for VLS/AIP SSKs and SSNs. Build it locally. Get some French consulting where needed. Call this new line of SSKs our P75-I
3) Give them the big bucks by insisting on ToT for Safran jet engine. We desperately need tech-infusion in jet engines. Not so for submarines. Macron gets the money & face-saver. We get the tech.
While I agree with buying more scorpene I disagree developing new design. A new design will be expensive and risky I would much rather have us utilize an existing design or make incremental improvements to Kalvari (which is how Korea got to where are they are now ).
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Prem Kumar »

No disagreements there. the P75-I can be a reverse-engineered Kalvari with new features like AIP and VLS. Need not be a clean sheet design.

I think the Navy's insistence on VLS is because of Brahmos. Plus potentially ITCM. With AIP, SSKs can lurk for 2 - 3 weeks submerged, which is plenty of time to even envisage a loadout of LACMs

The SSN commonality can be with the sensors, armaments, VLS plugs, communication equipment, combat management systems etc.

Till this Kalvari++ rolls out, we can keep inducting current Kalvaris to maintain fleet strength and keep the yards busy.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Manish_Sharma wrote:German-Norweigian 212CD will have to be double hull design as the triangular shaped top hull won't be good to take pressure:
Very interesting, looks like the whole concept of stealth subs is changing , also did wonder as to the shape of the Astute! Whole program cost up to 40 billion GBP.



have a look at the Dreadnoughts design !

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Dreadnought is the name of the vanguard replacement SSBN. It's also called successor class as vanguard successor.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:This idea that a CATOBAR will be invincible against submarines, has now been disproven.
Rakesh., have a read on how the QE battle carrier group pinged up the leading Chinese subs ( all three of them !) on their recent sojourn to SCS

I will not diss the capability of a modern AC group !!
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Sirjee, these are Chinese boats we are talking about.

The American SSNs are extremely quiet boats and have significant advantages that the PLAN just does not have. The Amreekis have been perfecting SSNs for decades and have a lead that will be challenging to overcome. The Chinese will have to beg, borrow and steal to reach the level of technological wizardry that the Seawolf Class and Virginia Class possess. I would not be surprised if American SSNs have gotten within torpedo range of PLAN battle groups and the PLAN has been blissfully unaware of it. The Chinese have every reason to be worried about AUKUS, as they have commenced their wolf warrior diplomacy criticizing this Anglo-Saxon partnership.

The PLAN will now have to deal with the 24-7 presence of US, UK and and in the future Australian SSNs patrolling in their backyard. And the problem for the PLAN, is they will have no idea where they are. That will seriously complicate war planning for them.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vivek K »

Rakesh wrote: This is a perfect opportunity for France and India to put their strategic partnership into overdrive mode. Fully agree SSridhar-ji. +108 to you!

....better to just continue with the Scorpene line. And exact spec as the first six boats. Don't even customize it. Do that jadugar during their mid life refits (DRDO AIP will be a good start). Just build six more Kalvari boat and end the SSK contest. And order the F-21 torpedo as a follow on deal for six more Kalvari boats. No other SSK will come quicker. SMX Ocean will only add delay and time is not a luxury that the Indian Navy's submarine arm has.
Admiral - there you go again - exporting Indian jobs for the promise of friendship. No other nation does that. Even with Russia, India is looking for a tech co-development role. So why be a doormat to the French? A domestic knowledgebase has been created with the Arihant series and the Scorpions. Why should the next series be imported. Shouldn't the next logical progression be co-development with manufacture of all boats in India?
The real catch is the SSN. If we can go with our own reactor design with a life of 25 - 30 years with French kit on board, it is a win win situation for the Indian Navy. In the Indian nuclear submarines thread, Vicky has stated that India can make a reactor with that long of a life. One thing is beyond doubt with AUKUS is that nuclear powered submarines will be the offensive platform of choice to engage the PLAN.
Good point Admiral. Key is to develop local capabilities - Reactor, and other required hardware in India. The longer we serve as a doormat, the more we get trodden upon.
But since this is the Rafale thread, order additional Rafales for the IAF and end this MRFA farce. There is no need to maintain any semblance of considering US interests. They shut it down with AUKUS, not us. What is the point of QUAD now?
Now that is not prudent Sir. Wait and watch. What do you have to lose?
Y I Patel
BRFite
Posts: 780
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Y I Patel »

Conventional plus nuclear powered Barracudas with French help on reactors are a high probability now. Remains to be seen if there will be a grand bargain that also includes Rafale with jet engine tech. That would be the deal of the century if it happens, and will redefine the geopolitical landscape from Persian Gulf to SCS
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Vivek K wrote:Admiral - there you go again - exporting Indian jobs for the promise of friendship. No other nation does that. Even with Russia, India is looking for a tech co-development role. So why be a doormat to the French? A domestic knowledgebase has been created with the Arihant series and the Scorpions. Why should the next series be imported. Shouldn't the next logical progression be co-development with manufacture of all boats in India?
We have no valuable knowledge base on SSKs and that is the whole point of the P-75I acquisition.

So whatever SSK the Indian Navy gets - more Kalvari Class or another type - they will have to be imported and doing screwdrivergiri in India. There is no way around that. The P-75I contest - in her current form - will likely not succeed and that is why TKMS of Germany and SAAB of Sweden pulled out. What India is asking for, no OEM will provide.

2022 is the French presidential election. The contest is between Macron and Marion Anne Perrine Le Pen (more commonly known as Marine Le Pen). The latter is protectionist and will make political hay of Macron's loss. If she wins, expect any potential Indian-French nuclear submarine deal to have a significant portion built in France.

In politics and geopolitics, there is a lot of give and take.
Vivek K wrote:Now that is not prudent Sir. Wait and watch. What do you have to lose?
The MRFA needs to go. Keeping it alive only serves the interests of foreign OEMs.
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vivek K »

I was talking about the Quad - you already know my position about imports - from anywhere.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Vivek K wrote:I was talking about the Quad - you already know my position about imports - from anywhere.
Vivek, I am not advocating leaving the Quad. Neither does the GOI have any intention of doing so. But we no longer need to follow the Amreeki line of *interoperability* lecture that they have been giving for quite a while now. Our partners in Quad and elsewhere will have to learn to be interoperable with whatever platforms India operates - local and phoren.

I am posting a series of tweets and articles below. Viewpoints from both sides.

https://twitter.com/KingstonAReif/statu ... 80032?s=20 ---> Yesterday a senior administration official appeared to confirm that Australian nuclear-powered submarines built under #AUKUS would be powered by HEU.

Image

https://twitter.com/KingstonAReif/statu ... 00898?s=20 --->

Q. So you’re prepared to tell a country like South Korea..that they wouldn’t qualify?

SENIOR ADMIN OFFICIAL: We don’t have the intention of extending this to other countries. This is..for Australia. And it is based on a unique set of circumstances involving the Australian case.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 00642?s=20 ---> Ooh boy. India, SoKo, Japan too I guess, all get a solid nudge about the exclusivity of the Five Eyes club, which they ain't part of. Will only accelerate independent MIC development in each country.

https://twitter.com/EvanLaksmana/status ... 15497?s=20 ---> “… AUKUS might more accurately be described as the latest example of that nervous, reflexive twitch in Australian strategic psychology.

… when an Asian threat or menace appears… Canberra’s impulse is to look to its Anglosphere cousins for protection.”

https://twitter.com/arzandc/status/1440 ... 73381?s=20 ---> This is not wrong exactly, but its a framing that ignores context & path dependence. AUKUS is not about security guarantees, but defence technology development - & for that, Aus' FVEY partners are the obvious best partners.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 88009?s=20 ---> Question is what defense technology development expertise does Australia bring to the table? Its industry is fledgling. UK industry anyways cooperates w/competes against US anyhow. Seems more like an "Anglo Club" for the favored tribes, as versus a modern, multi-culture, grouping like Quad.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 66760?s=20 ---> For countries like Japan and India, the AUKUS show is a reminder that they are not part of "a favored group". Folks in India who thought Quad meant India and US were now firm allies, India would get treatment parity with the "five eyes", will now think twice.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 43523?s=20 ---> In short a multi-polar setup which anyhow India was navigating prior to Galwan will remain an Indian priority. Such as ties with Russia and France, for sensitive high end platform tech which the US etc won't share with India but will share with Australia.

The 'Quad' is on the rise in Asia-Pacific: Game theory has a prediction about its future
https://www.cnbc.com/quad-summit-and-ch ... -the-quad/
23 Sept 2021

https://twitter.com/orfonline/status/14 ... 30985?s=20 ---> New Delhi has no interest in a world divided into rigid blocs, but structural challenges emanating from the Indo Pacific demand that India and the US strive for a more robust partnership, asserts Harsh V Pant.

Why Modi’s visit to the US matters
https://www.orfonline.org/research/why- ... s-matters/
23 Sept 2021
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2508
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

Nuclear submarines for India? Evolving strategic reality in Indo-Pacific may make India go the Australia way
Just as Australia took a 180-degree turn from 12 French-built diesel attack submarines to nine US Virginia class nuclear powered and conventionally armed submarines or SSNs, the Modi government will also have to make dyed in the wool admirals understand the deterrence of the nuclear platform.
Just like the Indian Navy still carries the imperial Cross of Saint George on its flag, its admirals want 24 diesel submarines as prescribed by a two-decades-old plan along with three SSNs. The 1999 submarine plan was cleared by the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government at such a time when even mentioning the word potential threat along with China was considered taboo. The then defence minister George Fernandes realised this much to his chagrin as he was pilloried by Indian media and so-called strategists for calling China a potential future threat.
sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by sohamn »

French reactors on subs are LEU with < 7% enrich while India is using MEU with > 30% enrich. India certainly wants to move to HEU model so that reactor doesn't need to be mended for 30 years and thus reducing the operational costs. Hence french reactors doesn't make much sense.
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by V_Raman »

Five eyes is an alglo-Saxon grouping and USA will provide nuke tech only to Anglo-Saxon brothers. What is so earth shattering about that?

As always india has to find its own path
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

The beauty of this deal is that it opens up the possibility for India to make an outright purchase of a Russians or French boat. Or negotiate with the US for joint development of technology as well.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25085
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SSridhar »

sohamn wrote:French reactors on subs are LEU with < 7% enrich while India is using MEU with > 30% enrich. India certainly wants to move to HEU model so that reactor doesn't need to be mended for 30 years and thus reducing the operational costs. Hence french reactors doesn't make much sense.
The Americans operate with weapons-grade enrichment for their reactors. But, there are two French developments that are worth noting. One, their LEU enrichmenty with a different type fuel that gives them a longer fuel cycle and the hatches that obviate the need to cut open the hull to inspect and re-fuel the reactor. It is claimed that it will take only a few months and not two years.

Anyway, we are discussing P-75A in a P-75I thread.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Russia is out and so is Germany, South Korea and Sweden. Apart from France, who else is left in Project 75I? I believe Spain is still left with their S-80 Plus program and their first S-80 Plus is set to be commissioned next year ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-80_Plus-class_submarine

The upgraded Kilo Class is the Type 636.3 that the Russians are building for their own Navy.

Russia says it won't bid for Indian Navy's new submarine plan, offers upgraded Kilo Class
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 551419.cms
13 Feb 2022
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Arent the Koreans still in the reckoning for the contract ? What did i misss
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

South Korea walked out. The main unifying issue with all the OEMs is the level of technology transfer.

The Indian Navy is reportedly asking for the moon (crown jewels) and the OEMs are not willing to comply.

At this stage, the IN is better off with going in for just six more Scorpenes or an improved variant of it.
srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2508
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

The simplest and fastest is to have 6 more Scorpenes at MDL and 6 new Kilos at some other shipyard (L&T ?). Put in AIP plug when DRDO becomes viable. Put in Li-ion batteries (like Soryu) when that is proved feasible etc. Forget about the VLS. Use TT launched missiles for now.

But given our procurement process and surprising bullheadedness of the Navy, I'm afraid we will do the right thing after trying out all alternatives :((
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

maybe India should have taken the pumpjet tech when it was offered :roll:
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

srin wrote:The simplest and fastest is to have 6 more Scorpenes at MDL and 6 new Kilos at some other shipyard (L&T ?). Put in AIP plug when DRDO becomes viable. Put in Li-ion batteries (like Soryu) when that is proved feasible etc. Forget about the VLS. Use TT launched missiles for now.

But given our procurement process and surprising bullheadedness of the Navy, I'm afraid we will do the right thing after trying out all alternatives :((
You hit the nail on the head - bullheadedness. Fully agree.

Asking for unobtanium (VLS cell, 100% tech transfer, etc) when they have a perfectly good submarine line at MDL. The IN and MoD got time for Project 75I, but no time to arm the Kalvari Class submarines with a modern torpedo. Our misplaced priorities. We will never learn!
kit wrote:maybe India should have taken the pumpjet tech when it was offered :roll:
When did that happen? Who offered it?
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

well not legal, remember that episode where an American engineer and his wife who were caught trying to pass on classified material regarding sub propulsion ?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:well not legal, remember that episode where an American engineer and his wife who were caught trying to pass on classified material regarding sub propulsion ?
I don't remember reading this. Any link?
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Naah, what will happen is that the project will not go anywhere and then in desperation the Navy will order off the shelf without the kind of TOT we want.
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

srin wrote:The simplest and fastest is to have 6 more Scorpenes at MDL and 6 new Kilos at some other shipyard (L&T ?). Put in AIP plug when DRDO becomes viable. Put in Li-ion batteries (like Soryu) when that is proved feasible etc. Forget about the VLS. Use TT launched missiles for now.

But given our procurement process and surprising bullheadedness of the Navy, I'm afraid we will do the right thing after trying out all alternatives :((
Russians have been quite hesitant on giving us manufacturing license for Kilo otherwise we would have done it long time ago, while they offered Amur (which is all but dead) primarily because it was designed for export.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
kit wrote:well not legal, remember that episode where an American engineer and his wife who were caught trying to pass on classified material regarding sub propulsion ?
I don't remember reading this. Any link?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... dwich.html
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

If we now go to the French/DCNS they will ask for a higher price to supply more scorpene's or even ask for a piece of the action of our P75N( Nuclear Attack Submarine) contract.

The Russians would similarly ask for additional order for supplying their old Kilos if we want their help in designing a more powerful reactor (180 MWe) for the P75N.

What a bloody mess....
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

kit, I don't see any reference to India in that article.
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by V_Raman »

the best tech we can get is HDW IMO - we got it already and look where SoKo is now with that!!
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by V_Raman »

the tech transfers from western europe/Israel is honest and at a scale we can absorb. russians cannot be trusted with that - in all these years they did not give us Kilo class tech when we have paid them billions. they did not give full tech transfer in other places as well - T90, Su30MKI. USA will not give tech transfer and the scale is too big for us to absorb.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
kit, I don't see any reference to India in that article.
No., India was the implied ally there., who in fact tipped off the FBI leading to their capture, fully collaborating with them. The spiel is not the only article above btw.
sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by sohamn »

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote: kit, I don't see any reference to India in that article.
No., India was the implied ally there., who in fact tipped off the FBI leading to their capture, fully collaborating with them. The spiel is not the only article above btw.
How did you figure India was the implied ally here? Why can't it be France, Australia, Israel etc etc?
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

sohamn wrote:
kit wrote:
No., India was the implied ally there., who in fact tipped off the FBI leading to their capture, fully collaborating with them. The spiel is not the only article above btw.
How did you figure India was the implied ally here? Why can't it be France, Australia, Israel etc etc?
Most likely Israel which has been trying to get on good side after numerous nuclear spy incidents with US.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

John wrote:
sohamn wrote:
How did you figure India was the implied ally here? Why can't it be France, Australia, Israel etc etc?
Most likely Israel which has been trying to get on good side after numerous nuclear spy incidents with US.
it was an asian ally already operating nuclear subs !.. i was trying to find the original article.. Israel would have obtained the tech without anyone knowing
John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3447
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

^ I am pretty if they had said that they would just as well mentioned India and our media & all those armchair generals would have been all over.

As for Israeli spy caught in US look up Pollard case and there have been few other cases as well. After those incidents Israel has been playing nice.

Anyway we are getting off topic for this thread.

Added FYI somehow who is pretty knowledgeable on this said is most likely France.
YashG
BRFite
Posts: 936
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

V_Raman wrote:the tech transfers from western europe/Israel is honest and at a scale we can absorb. russians cannot be trusted with that - in all these years they did not give us Kilo class tech when we have paid them billions. they did not give full tech transfer in other places as well - T90, Su30MKI. USA will not give tech transfer and the scale is too big for us to absorb.
I dont think that is entirely correct. The only foreign weapons that we can make, mould and export today are : Brahmos, Dornier and maybe AK203 (not sure how hawk trainers are place here). Besides Russians did help us a little her and little there, including cryogenics. SU30MKI was no true TOT but then Jaguar wasnt as well. Moreover, we have screwdrivered all russian aircrafts in India but not the mirages & rafale. Regards to T90, I dont think there are many critical pieces of tech in T90 that we already or with some effort wont be able to build. Indeed as far as opto-electronic systems go, we will either use israeli or indian systems in any upgrades or new MBTs.
Post Reply