Project 75I - It Begins

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kit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Why not partner with an established naval power with experience in ship building to build an entirely new class ? France ? Germany ? even Sweden ?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

kit wrote:Why not partner with an established naval power with experience in ship building to build an entirely new class ? France ? Germany ? even Sweden ?
Started today that will be a 15 year process at minimum before the first boat is in the water.

The problem in Indian procurement process is that we seem not to understand that no one will ever share crown jewels with us.

Strangely we also don't have confidence in our own abilities to stand up on our feet. Inspite of everything we have accomplished and demonstrated.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:
kit wrote:Why not partner with an established naval power with experience in ship building to build an entirely new class ? France ? Germany ? even Sweden ?
Strangely we also don't have confidence in our own abilities to stand up on our feet. Inspite of everything we have accomplished and demonstrated.
Quite true., the aversion to failure is indeed Indian R&Ds achilles heel.. what do you think would have happened if the Tejas had crashed sometime in its developmental flight
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by V_Raman »

YashG wrote:
V_Raman wrote:the tech transfers from western europe/Israel is honest and at a scale we can absorb. russians cannot be trusted with that - in all these years they did not give us Kilo class tech when we have paid them billions. they did not give full tech transfer in other places as well - T90, Su30MKI. USA will not give tech transfer and the scale is too big for us to absorb.
I dont think that is entirely correct. The only foreign weapons that we can make, mould and export today are : Brahmos, Dornier and maybe AK203 (not sure how hawk trainers are place here). Besides Russians did help us a little her and little there, including cryogenics. SU30MKI was no true TOT but then Jaguar wasnt as well. Moreover, we have screwdrivered all russian aircrafts in India but not the mirages & rafale. Regards to T90, I dont think there are many critical pieces of tech in T90 that we already or with some effort wont be able to build. Indeed as far as opto-electronic systems go, we will either use israeli or indian systems in any upgrades or new MBTs.
It is not EU suppliers fault if we dont use the ToT - Bofors was a clean TOT. I would assume that would have been the case for Shishumar class subs as well. Russia has not given such a clean ToT ever IMO.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Rakesh wrote:
The Indian Navy is reportedly asking for the moon (crown jewels) and the OEMs are not willing to comply.
What could be such a unachievable technologies for SSK. When South Korea have been able to crack it with German shishumar submarines; the ToT for which we also have.

I thought releasing diesel fumes out without making bubbles sound was main difference between nuclear vs diesel.

We are already making German MAN engines in Aurangabad.

Can't a Arihant-Light with MAN engine be our P-75I ?

Or maybe desperate for money Spaniards for S-80 can share what swedes french germans russians are denying ?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

V_Raman wrote:
YashG wrote:
I dont think that is entirely correct. The only foreign weapons that we can make, mould and export today are : Brahmos, Dornier and maybe AK203 (not sure how hawk trainers are place here). Besides Russians did help us a little her and little there, including cryogenics. SU30MKI was no true TOT but then Jaguar wasnt as well. Moreover, we have screwdrivered all russian aircrafts in India but not the mirages & rafale. Regards to T90, I dont think there are many critical pieces of tech in T90 that we already or with some effort wont be able to build. Indeed as far as opto-electronic systems go, we will either use israeli or indian systems in any upgrades or new MBTs.
It is not EU suppliers fault if we dont use the ToT - Bofors was a clean TOT. I would assume that would have been the case for Shishumar class subs as well. Russia has not given such a clean ToT ever IMO.
Yes Bofors & Shishumar Subs were likely missed TOTs. But from Shishumar, Dornier to Marut - u see Germans all along.
I wonder why we dont go to germany more often for our defence needs, or have the german MIC subdued, receded.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by V_Raman »

Shishumar class is a crime on the nation - Kalavari class is another brewing crime on the nation. For all the indigenous build creds of the Indian Navy - their sub program reeks of downright incompetence and bordering on criminal negligence.
Last edited by V_Raman on 19 Feb 2022 02:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by V_Raman »

We should track real TOT we have ever gotten with the supplier country. Below is the confirmed list - what else?

Bofors - Sweden
Shishumar - Germany
Dornier - Germany
Marut - Germany

I dont know of any other TOTs
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Wonder if HDW drawings and TOT is already there , why not build upon that ..maybe its not too simple like the Bofors tech transfer !!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

kit wrote:Wonder if HDW drawings and TOT is already there , why not build upon that ..maybe its not too simple like the Bofors tech transfer !!
Building a existing design = less profit for all the parties involved.

If we attempt reverse engineer, MDL will have to actually try and reverse engineer blueprints and find substitute parts. If it is new deal for new class they can get more $$ for updating shipyard and simply rely on their foreign partner for everything if something gets delayed you can blame it on them win-win. One of reasons I even doubt they want to build more Kaveri.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

^^^
If what you're saying is true then that is deshdroh.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

V_Raman wrote:We should track real TOT we have ever gotten with the supplier country. Below is the confirmed list - what else?

Bofors - Sweden
Shishumar - Germany
Dornier - Germany
Marut - Germany

I dont know of any other TOTs
Brahmos, Barak (?), AK203
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by sum »

kit wrote:Wonder if HDW drawings and TOT is already there , why not build upon that ..maybe its not too simple like the Bofors tech transfer !!
Well, the reverse engineering effort on Bofors with Dhanush seems straight into the bin after all the initial hype with IA claiming design issues

So need to see if we even have the capability to semi reverse engineer a 10x more complex SSK and keep the end user happy with its quality
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

YashG wrote:^^^
If what you're saying is true then that is deshdroh.
Sirji
It a combination of:
1.Babudom
2.Public sector(read trade unionist especially left)
3.Political will
4.Foreign dalals
Of all the highlighted one and probably number 1 are the main reason else how will the 'Gravy Train' keep chugging :lol:
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya G »

YashG wrote:
V_Raman wrote:We should track real TOT we have ever gotten with the supplier country. Below is the confirmed list - what else?

Bofors - Sweden
Shishumar - Germany
Dornier - Germany
Marut - Germany

I dont know of any other TOTs
Brahmos, Barak (?), AK203
A good start is to look at ships with a high component in fight. For example, look at the upcoming Mahe class ASW corvette. At the brochure level the ship is all close we have got to Indian ship so far.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

^ Brahmaputra frigates even built over a decade ago had a high level local components compared to P-17a but that’s not necessarily bad. There is nothing wrong with using foreign components in a platform if it allows us to save money and gives the best bang for the buck.

Where we need to draw the line is not taking the effort to procure a local platform/weapon even when we have the blue prints. While wasting money and time on foreign procurement simply because we want something new and shiny and not even necessarily better for the money we spending.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... BCXYTOU1Vw ---> Report: Bid submission for P-75I submarine acquisition for Indian Navy has been extended to June 2022. If bid submission happens by June, it will take GoI around two years to consider it, so order may not be placed before end of 2024.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Post order placement, if all goes well ( TOT, Design adaptation etc.) then the first submarine will hit water between 2031 and 2034 at the earliest.


This is such a sorry state of affairs.

In the meantime the earliest kilo and type 209s will all be gone. Reducing the submarine arm to under 12 diesel electric submarines. Plus whatever number of Arihant and it's sisters.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Yagnasri »

This thread - "It Begins" started some 7 years back. There is no "It" finalized yet. Therefore there is no "Begins" . That is the state of affairs in the MoD.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:In the meantime the earliest kilo and type 209s will all be gone. Reducing the submarine arm to under 12 diesel electric submarines. Plus whatever number of Arihant and it's sisters.
All the 209s and most of the Kilos will be 40+ years old by the end of this decade. The last Kilo (INS Sindhurashtra) was commissioned in July 2000 and she is 22 years old. So forget 12 diesel electric submarines. The IN will have just six modern SSKs by the end of this decade, all of the Kalvari (Scorpene) Class variety.

The sheer stupidity that the IN is adopting, will hurt them and along with it...the nation as well. This attitude of I-will-only-take-the-latest-and-greatest-and-not-accept-anything-else is downright foolish. They have a Scorpene line active now, just build more Scorpenes till Project 75I comes on board. Is another 3 to 4 more Scorpenes really going to hurt the IN's pride? No OEM will give what the IN is asking for in the RFI of Project 75I. Not a single one. No wonder these OEMs are pulling out. There is no time for this ToT business. The IN is woefully short of modern submarines and needs to move urgently. The IN is doing the same dance-and-pony show with IAC-2 as well.

The IN got time to waste on Project 75I, but where is the urgency to induct a modern torpedo for the Kalvari Class boats? Either get the Black Shark torpedo from WASS of Italy or the F-21 torpedo from Naval Group of France. But make a damn decision for heaven's sake! Defence Minister Rajnath Singh needs to make a decision and make it quick.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Yagnasri wrote:This thread - "It Begins" started some 7 years back. There is no "It" finalized yet. Therefore there is no "Begins" . That is the state of affairs in the MoD.
I don't believe the fault lies with the MoD alone. The Navy has to take a lot of blame for this mess as well.

They can easily request the MoD to take up Naval Group's offer of additional Scorpene Class boats. But they will not.

Best is the Enemy of Good Enough. And Scorpene is not the best. The IN will only take the best.

Which world are some of these Admirals living in?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Even if additional Scorpene class boats are ordered today. It will take at minimum 5 years for the first boat to hit the water.

Is concept of iterative development is not understood by the forces?

We have all technology to build Scorpene class submarines. Build them with progressive changes. Such as built in AIP. Or use the basic design and scale it up to 3000 tons conventional boats. 4500 tons or even 6000 tons nuke boat. Using the basic design and scaling it up.

I understand that it might not be scalable. But using the basic design a new larger submarine can be designed with specific capacity.

I have trouble understanding why additional Arihant class boats not be ordered and built in MDL. Order 12-15 in one go as attack submarines.

While Vizag builds stretched Arihant as ballistic missile submarines.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Yagnasri »

Two very critical system 155mm canons, and the subs same kinds of things are done for this stupidity. We had designed for bofors and did nothing. We could have built on the work done on German sub manufacturing, but not done which South Korea did whatever is needed and we are ok to import from them now.

We were not ready to have a large numbers or production line for M2ks when it was offered. We do not get suitable engines for Marut when it was available.

Be it of the MoD or of IN/IA/IAF, the net result is the same. Serious compromise of national security.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Barath »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
What could be such a unachievable technologies for SSK. When South Korea have been able to crack it with German shishumar submarines; the ToT for which we also have.

I thought releasing diesel fumes out without making bubbles sound was main difference between nuclear vs diesel.

We are already making German MAN engines in Aurangabad.

Can't a Arihant-Light with MAN engine be our P-75I ?
ToT for U209, as well as additional submarine orders envisaged were held back due to kickback report by vp singh. The firm was blacklisted and even spare parts needed hoops, more money

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 251007.cms

Diesel engines don't make bubbles. They take air from atmosphere when on surface or at periscope depth (through schnorkel tube). Further underwater, they use secondary power - batteries . And may augment this with AIP. This results in quite a few operational differences with nuclear subs - cost, range, speed especially sustaining it, time on station far away, survivability, maintenance, overhaul, refueling, training..

I'm not sure one can simply cut-paste a man engine from aurangabad into a sub. Requirements may not match.

Regardless, one could try to develop arihant conventional. But that's not the route preferred. Possibly time, cost , integration etc

https://maritime.org/doc/fleetsub/diesel/chap1.htm
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

Barath wrote: Diesel engines don't make bubbles. They take air from atmosphere when on surface or at periscope depth (through schnorkel tube). Further underwater, they use secondary power - batteries . And may augment this with AIP. This results in quite a few operational differences with nuclear subs - cost, range, speed especially sustaining it, time on station far away, survivability, maintenance, overhaul, refueling, training..
Curious - what happens to the exhaust gases (byproducts of diesel combustion) ?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vidur »

Since its Sunday will give myself the liberty of posting on a particular procurement just this once. P75 I will not see the first submarine in service before 2037. P75A should be possible by 2034 with some luck and Russian support
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vidur »

Rakesh wrote:All the 209s and most of the Kilos will be 40+ years old by the end of this decade. The last Kilo (INS Sindhurashtra) was commissioned in July 2000 and she is 22 years old. So forget 12 diesel electric submarines. The IN will have just six modern SSKs by the end of this decade, all of the Kalvari (Scorpene) Class variety.

The sheer stupidity that the IN is adopting, will hurt them and along with it...the nation as well. This attitude of I-will-only-take-the-latest-and-greatest-and-not-accept-anything-else is downright foolish. They have a Scorpene line active now, just build more Scorpenes till Project 75I comes on board. Is another 3 to 4 more Scorpenes really going to hurt the IN's pride? No OEM will give what the IN is asking for in the RFI of Project 75I. Not a single one. No wonder these OEMs are pulling out. There is no time for this ToT business. The IN is woefully short of modern submarines and needs to move urgently. The IN is doing the same dance-and-pony show with IAC-2 as well.

The IN got time to waste on Project 75I, but where is the urgency to induct a modern torpedo for the Kalvari Class boats? Either get the Black Shark torpedo from WASS of Italy or the F-21 torpedo from Naval Group of France. But make a damn decision for heaven's sake! Defence Minister Rajnath Singh needs to make a decision and make it quick.
https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/14 ... ffF1p1ohEA
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Vidur wrote:Since its Sunday will give myself the liberty of posting on a particular procurement just this once. P75 I will not see the first submarine in service before 2037. P75A should be possible by 2034 with some luck and Russian support
This is very sad Vidur-ji. The Indian Navy needs a serious wake up call by the Raksha Mantri.

My humble suggestion would be to kick the can of Project 75I down the road. Just build another six Scorpenes for now. The first two (Kursura and Vagli) can be identical to the Kalvari (P75) Class. The next four (Shishumar, Shankush, Shalki and Shankul) can be an improved variant, basically a sub-class. If construction starts now, all six can arrive before 2030.

Kicking the can of P75I now, will give the Indian Navy time to decide on how to plan ahead on the RFI of P75I...considering that the current RFI of the P75I program is just not workable. And building six more Scorpenes now will give the IN a healthy number (12) of modern diesel-electric submarines in this decade and next.

In addition to the above, a contract for a modern torpedo needs to be signed ASAP. Either the F-21 or Black Shark. My vote is for the F-21, as a part of a package deal for six more Scorpenes. A minimum 200 order to start off with.

This is achievable if the Raksha Mantri puts his foot down. But I am aware that is easier said than done.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Perhaps the IN should just wind down her submarine arm? What a joke this is. That twitter link is 100% true.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

MDL boss is on record that they can build 11 submarines at any time.

If orders for Scorpene class submarines is placed now the first one can be in the water by 2026-27. If they recieved orders for 12 boats in one go. The last one should be in the water by 2032.

So in terms of industrial capacity we are doing okay. But the decision making is not okay.

I think the best way to deal with the IN domestically will be for the Raksha Mantri to ask the Indian Navy to conduct an excercise in dealing with the PLAN & TSPN combination in 2035. But without any kilo and type 209s in the fleet.

Once the reality of the situation dawn's on the Navy high command. Then we might see progress in the submarine building program right now.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

At this stage, the Raksha Mantri needs to have a sit down with the Navy Chief and the Grey Dolphin and tell them both of the path ahead ---> continue with the active submarine line now (for six more Scorpene boats) and will revisit P75I at a later date.

The Raksha Mantri is the head of the MoD. No one else.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:At this stage, the Raksha Mantri needs to have a sit down with the Navy Chief and the Grey Dolphin and tell them both of the path ahead ---> continue with the active submarine line now (for six more Scorpene boats) and will revisit P75I at a later date.

The Raksha Mantri is the head of the MoD. No one else.
Sorry Raksha Mantri is busy over UP elections it seems :( . Winning elections is more important than winning wars.
That tweet is correct and its a shame.
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Post by Vidur »

I know the RM and have seen others as well as well as many cabinet ministers at state and central levels. Current RM is one of the better ones. Very few politicians or bureaucrats know about defence matters in India. That is one reason we have such issues.

And this is a long term issue decades in making. Two days of election campaigning is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Vidur wrote:I know the RM and have seen others as well as well as many cabinet ministers at state and central levels. Current RM is one of the better ones. Very few politicians or bureaucrats know about defence matters in India. That is one reason we have such issues.

And this is a long term issue decades in making. Two days of election campaigning is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Vidur-ji, you have hit the nail on the head.

Many in the senior leadership of the army, navy and air force are running circles around this ignorance.

Thus the reason for P75I (when Scorpene line is active). Same with Armoured Corps, Artillery Corps, 114 MRFA, etc.

I really hope the Raksha Mantri can tell the Navy leadership to cut their losses with P-75I (for now) and move ahead with Scorpene.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Karan M »

One of the reasons the IN may be less enamoured of the Scorpene may be because a lot of its details got leaked by a French contractor. We can always ask for a modified design which is sufficiently different yet not as hard to procure and build as a completely new design.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya G »

Karan M wrote:One of the reasons the IN may be less enamoured of the Scorpene may be because a lot of its details got leaked by a French contractor. We can always ask for a modified design which is sufficiently different yet not as hard to procure and build as a completely new design.
PLAN operates Kilo class SSKs, did that make IN's Kilos less worthy? IAF regularly exercises with F-16s but still it shot down our MiG-21. I hope you get the drift.

Project-75I is like a MMRCA redux.... i am perplexed on how the complete system is unable to deliver on SSKs and MCMs.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Cybaru »

Karan M wrote:One of the reasons the IN may be less enamoured of the Scorpene may be because a lot of its details got leaked by a French contractor. We can always ask for a modified design which is sufficiently different yet not as hard to procure and build as a completely new design.

Good points Karan! IN should force OEM to fix issue by changing existing subsystem or modifying them enough to make the leakage irrelevant Getting another 6 Scorpene++ should be on cards.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Barath »

srin wrote:
Barath wrote: Diesel engines don't make bubbles. They take air from atmosphere when on surface or at periscope depth (through schnorkel tube). Further underwater, they use secondary power - batteries . And may augment this with AIP. This results in quite a few operational differences with nuclear subs - cost, range, speed especially sustaining it, time on station far away, survivability, maintenance, overhaul, refueling, training..
Curious - what happens to the exhaust gases (byproducts of diesel combustion) ?
Vented through the schnorkel if at periscope depth. And if on the surface, no issue !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_snorkel
> As snorkels were designed to draw in and vent gases, a submarine's diesel exhaust could be seen on the surface up to a distance of about 4.5 km
[maybe Longer if using radar and planes]


In the past, there were attempts by Germans in WW2 and Soviet Quebec class in 1950s to run diesel underwater by linking intake and exhaust and feeding pressurised oxygen into it. This ran into issues and the system was quickly abandoned.
https://www.reddit.com/r/submarines/com ... t/elx1v7p/

I believe French AIP (Mesma) combusts ethanol and stored oxygen at 60 atmospheres to run a steam turbine in closed cycle. Wiki suggests that "This pressure-firing allows exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled overboard at any depth without an exhaust compressor." The Scorpene was designed for Mesma, but India will skip it and use DRDO Phosphoric acid fuel during refit/upgrade

The Stirling engine AIP of Gotland class which uses stored liquid oxygen may also be similar in a sense to MESMA.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Karan M »

Aditya G wrote:
Karan M wrote:One of the reasons the IN may be less enamoured of the Scorpene may be because a lot of its details got leaked by a French contractor. We can always ask for a modified design which is sufficiently different yet not as hard to procure and build as a completely new design.
PLAN operates Kilo class SSKs, did that make IN's Kilos less worthy? IAF regularly exercises with F-16s but still it shot down our MiG-21. I hope you get the drift.

Project-75I is like a MMRCA redux.... i am perplexed on how the complete system is unable to deliver on SSKs and MCMs.
The answer to both of your questions is yes. It did make them less worthy which is why we don't want more Kilos as a standard. At best we may pick up a couple. Picking up a standard design is fraught with operational compromise.

And by exercising with F-16s, we don't want it as our MMRCA and our MiG-21, a 3.5G platform was able to knock a F-16 down. Similarly by exercising with PLAAF Su-30 MKKs, PAF was able to pick up enough data about our A2A weapons on our Su-30 MKIs in service which enabled them to hone their tactics so as to remain out of range and safe.

So yes, get the drift. There is a reason why the PM is stressing on desi weapons citing that many imports are fundamentally compromised. And bespoke kit is unaffordable.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ramana »

Folks just so I can catch up, what's the issue here?
Thanks.
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