Project 75I - It Begins

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Pratyush
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

I have a fundamental issue with a foreign powers speaking about enhancing Indian strategic autonomy.

If India is have true strategic autonomy, then by definition no foreign powers should have ever a say in our capabilities.

This to me is no different from Arab traders selling horses to Indian kings during the middle ages for war. But Indian kings were unable to breed suitable horses for combat. Resulting in flow of treasure to the traders.

Same with canons and fire arms from Europeans during the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries.

In the 21st century, it's the entire gamut of supplies in the name of strategic autonomy.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Do we have strategic autonomy? :)

In the absence of such, what do your propose India should do till we achieve "said" strategic autonomy?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

I have a simple solution. No more imports.

Either fight with what the domestic industrial capacity can provide.

Or abandon the area to the enemies.

If Delhi cannot be defended with domestic industrial capacity. Then all pretence of India being a strategic power should be abandoned. Scale down our ambition till such time our industrial capacity is unable to provide for our requirements.

If that means that India becomes a large Bangladesh in terms of international strategic heft. So be it.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Fight with bows and arrows or sticks and stones. But there will be no more imports.

Because in most areas. It's the mindset that is the problem. Not industrial capacity.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Take this stupid program.

I accept that the Scorpene program is compromised.

But is it so compromised that the moment the submarines leave on patrol, they start shouting, here I am come and kill me?

If not then there is no reason why additional submarines couldn't be built in India and later boats tweeked with lithium ion battery in place of lead acid battery.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

That is really not an effective strategy. The goal is to win and prevail in conflict, not lose.

Without a strategic airlift capability like the C-17, how do you expect the IA to deploy the way it has against China? Same with transports like the C-130 and CH-47 Chinook. Same with the Su-30MKI, Rafale F3R, Mirage 2000, etc. In the vein of Atmanirbhar Bharat, are we throwing simple logic right out the window?

Simple solutions are not really effective against complex challenges. Bows & arrows and stick & stones are not going to work. It is a nice sound byte, but it is just not practical.

So India has to be practical, but at the same time not give up her strategic autonomy. That line can be summed up in two words - multipolar alignment. Therefore partner with everyone (France, US, Russia, Israel, etc), but get into an alliance with no one.

The Scorpene is compromised. It is what it is. It would be nice to get more Scorpenes, but the Indian Navy does not want it. So the IN will wait for another boat to arrive, however long that takes. It does certainly impede upon national security, but one liners are not going to solve the issues.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Now on to answering the first question, India's strategic autonomy is a function of other powers requirements from India.

Which by definition means that the moment those nations think that India will not be standing with them. The Indian room to maneuver will begin to get constrained.

Given the mindset of the people in India who should know better. Our autonomy at the moment is qualified. Because we have not done the hard work to become truly autonomous.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Your theories are all nice, but put it into practice in the real world.

Here is a good example ---> the IN has contracted for 24 MH-60R anti-submarine helicopters from Sikorsky. The first pair is arriving this summer.

Do we have one of our own? Before we go down into the rabbit hole of we should have done this and should have done that, the reality is we do not have one. When the Vikrant goes out for deployment next year, what local ASW helicopter is there to deploy onboard?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by V_Raman »

France is making the right noise at the right time to bag contracts - rafale, sub-lines, jet engine collaboration etc.

It is again our prerogative to make use of what is offered and move forward.

IMHO we are nowhere close to strategic autonomy of geopolitical roti-kapda-makaan - food-energy-domesticMIC - we are in food - but we lack in other two. so we have ways to go...
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh,

It's that simple, even if you are unable to see this.

If the army is given a choice to fight with sticks and stones. Do you think that they will not fight to get domestic 155 mm howitzer in service?

If the army was told in 90s that make do with Arjun as T 90 will never be imported. Would they not have worked on Arjun?

Same with submarines. If the navy had been told during the Arihant project design phase that use experience gained from this to build a diesel boats. So you think that the MDL sub facilities would have gone idle?

If someone wants to find a solution they can be found. But if they want to look at all the obstacles in the way. Then no forward steps can be made.

India has been spending too much time on easy solutions.

Only when an easy path has been shut for us. Have we taken the real measures to accomplish something.

I am in favour of India shutting down the path of least resistance. Rather than some foreign powers doing it for us.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:Your

Do we have one of our own? Before we go down into the rabbit hole of we should have done this and should have done that, the reality is we do not have one. When the Vikrant goes out for deployment next year, what local ASW helicopter is there to deploy onboard?
Dhruv, is available today. IMRH will be available in the next 10 years.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:France is making the right noise at the right time to bag contracts - rafale, sub-lines, jet engine collaboration etc.

It is again our prerogative to make use of what is offered and move forward.
Satyameva Jayate! :)
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

How long will the MH60 stay in the air when CAATSA sanctions are imposed on India?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Dhruv, is available today. IMRH will be available in the next 10 years.
The MH-60R has more endurance and time on station than the HAL Dhruv. Her sensor suite is also more advanced.

What we need is an IMRH today, not 10 years from now. Our Sea King Mk42Bs are aging and the Vikrant is due for commissioning this August and will go for her maiden deployment a year later.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:How long will the MH60 stay in the air when CAATSA sanctions are imposed on India?
Impose the sanction :)

America is an independent and powerful nation. If America believes it is in her geopolitical interest to impose sanctions on India, then do it.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Dhruv, is available today. IMRH will be available in the next 10 years.
The MH-60R has more endurance and time on station than the HAL Dhruv. Her sensor suite is also more advanced.

What we need is an IMRH today, not 10 years from now. Our Sea King Mk42Bs are aging and the Vikrant is due for commissioning this August and will go for her maiden deployment a year later.
Low endurance doesn't mean no endurance. Make do with what is available.

Besides, regardless of what is the endurance of the MH60. The availability of long range (200 to 300 km range) sub launched anti ship missiles in harpoon form factor will make a helo born anti submarine operations a losing proposition against a power capable of finding a shooting solution for the submarine.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

For a stronger navy, India needs to fast-track the submarine project
https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... y-7919079/
16 May 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Alfa defence is reporting that MDL is developing a SSK for Indian Navy.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by mody »

I am sure the navy too has the entire leaked report about the Scorpene subs. They should be able to modify some of the parts of the sub, to mitigate the risks, if required, with the help of the French. For example, the diesel engine can be changed to a German one if required or even the propeller can be changed to the one used in the Type U209-1500 or something similar. Generally the propeller design the noise profile of the same is highly sought after for any sub. If that data for the Scorpene has been compromised, try to change the design. it might not be a trivial task like taking the propeller from the U209-1500 and fitting it on the Scorpene, but I am sure if the French want us to make 3 more subs, they along with Naval design and MDL can come up with a solution. If the sonar has been compromised, we have our own sonar that an be used or the French can provide something else.

A hybrid U209-1500+Scorpene design was something that many posters had proposed in the past. Obviously its all arm chair thinking and the actual feasibility of such a design would have to be worked out. If the reports about MDL trying to come up with some design are true, then it would be a good start.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

Pratyush wrote:Alfa defence is reporting that MDL is developing a SSK for Indian Navy.
Will take how many years to develop, build and induct in service? Minimum 10-15. By that time all the Kilo's and U209 will be retired and India will be left with six Scorpene subs two to three of which would have passed the MLU stage!!!!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

I don't know how long it will take to design the SSK. But I have seen reports that the MDL will start construction of a nuke boat powered by a 190mw reactor by 2024-25.

If those reports are in fact correct, then it's possible that they are planning to adapt the skills developed for the SSN and design the SSK.

Such a design should be capable of being put in production relatively quickly.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Will need more Uranium enrichment plants if they are going to scale up number of SSNs
Last edited by kit on 22 May 2022 16:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

^^^ Why is there a correlation between number of SSKs and demand for Uranium?
I hope you aren't confusing SSKs and SSNs.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Prem »

Indian Navy's Submarine shortage and way forward | 21 May, 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRFUwMqDQWk
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the Indian Navy thread....
ks_sachin wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Naval HQ will ask for Li-ion with back up SS battery, all combined into a AIP system and powered by a nuclear reactor.

Ask for unobtanium and then wait for eons for said product to arrive. In the meanwhile, run never ending contests to acquire phoren boats.

At each Navy Day function on Dec 04th, parrot the standard cliched line, "No expense shall be spared in the defense of the nation."
You forgot photon torpedos and eye of Sauron powered Sonar..
While we were joking about the above...see below :)

South Korea (DSME) and Spain (Navantia) are the only two contenders left in the P-75I contest. Bids have been extended till June 2022 (a few days away). First boat will be launched when? :roll:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSS-III_submarine
DSME has offered a 3,000-tonne variant of the KSS-III, known as the DSME-3000 to the Indian Navy, under the latter's Project-75 (India) (P-75I) submarine procurement initiative. The DSME-3000 is noted to be quite similar to the KSS-III, featuring a displacement of about 3,300 tons, with a length measuring 83.5 m (273 ft 11 in) and a beam measuring 9.7 m (31 ft 10 in). The DSME-3000 was first displayed to the public at the 2021 convention of the "International Maritime Defense Industry Exhibition" (MADEX), held at Busan, South Korea.

The DSME-3000 will be equipped with lithium-ion batteries and a fuel-cell powered AIP system, as on the KSS-III; however, the variant being offered to India lacks the K-VLS cells - which are standard on both Batch-I and Batch-II submarines being built for the Republic of Korea Navy.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vidur »

My senior colleague Sh Amit Cowsish brings out very important and fundamental issues. I have had the pleasure of working with him some years ago. An IDAS officer and a man with a sharp mind, integrity and a thorough professional. A must watch for serious students of Defence matters.

'Why A Strategic Partnership Model When There Are Simpler Ways To Achieve P75I?'

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by suryag »

Vidur ji thanks for the link, amazing clarity;
echoed similar thoughts in latter part of this x-post

Rajsunderji ghanta inspiration!!! it was not more than the theory class of an engineering course.
On the Viking/Vikas engines, people who went for training during Mitterand's(IIRC) term were not legally allowed to carry drawings back, it was almost reproduced out of memory and other "means". Once they were back, it was their sheer determination to get it to work. My take on the reasons behind their success was they had decent test facilities, DoS had less sources of interference, ISRO was customer and developer at the same time. I still remember ISRO was at that time still a meritocracy when it came to promos, people had to show real progress to move on grades(of course as with every place in US there was some politics some favouritism) For some reason without the money to be made out of deals I believe Delhi babus and politicians left them alone, in fact saw them as a political opportunity to show case some development to the masses. Do you know in the mid 80s we didnt have a basic basic "light table" to spread out satellite images and do manual mosaicking, we used to get these from outside

Now coming to DEfence side, the story goes 4 dimensional from 1 dimension
1. Money to be made by Netas
2. Past performance record clouding Armed forces' judgements and of course with armed forces being more exposed to whites they always drooled over stuff as it was within their acquisition reach.
3. DRDO's own record at design(they claim many things in news articles/interviews, however the reality is 60% of what they claim even for delivered products)
4. DRDO/DPSU's shoddy production, there is a great amount of chalta hai attitude when it comes to supply to our AFs. Obviously, the AF folks are pissed off given they are used to greater amounts of integrity and honesty(which is further exalted when there is no money to be made). This leads back to (2) above

Way forward
1. GoI needs to use a carrot and stick policy with both sides i.e., AFs and DRDO/DPSU and if you see since 2014 all the building blocks are being put in place one after the other - DPSU corporatization(carrot and stick to DRDO/DPSU), Pressure on DRDO funding(stick to DRDO), Import ban list(stick for AFs, carrot for DPSUs), ATAGS kind of private entity involvement, expansion of private participation, promo in AFs
2. CDS streamlining procurement procedures
3. Improvement in work ethics across the board and taking pride in their work - GoI is doing this but this has to happen organically, we need a nambinarayanan, a k narayana and all those H scientist kind of ego(that i can do it) and the sincerity and integrity,
4. DRDO needs to promote better project management, they have been improving this but there needs to be a tighter connection between AF and DRDO. For instance instead of AFs saying I need this and need that there ought to be a systems engineering group which kind of looks at problems that are faced and then carves out a solution that satisfies the aspirations of the AFs(in a phased manner) and also lets DRDO deliver progressively. This Sys.Engg group should be staffed by 1 star generals(Brig and their teams) and Scientist 'F's
5. Of course GoI opening up the purse further and investing more into research which is not funelled through DRDO/CSIR

Civilians like us should hold awareness sessions on product design in general and increase awareness, thats the best we can do apart Randi R&D
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Thakur_B »

Koreans are going to win it. LG and Samsung dominate the industrial Li-ion tech for industrial applications. Koreans have also been working on their missile launcher module for subs.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Someone had posted a design of an indigenous design SSK with VLS a few years ago. The VLS was like a hump similar to the delta 3 or 4 type submarine. I think that by continuous design iteration over the last few years, the design could have been made stream lined and quite.

I don't know what happened to that effort.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Thakur_B wrote:Koreans are going to win it. LG and Samsung dominate the industrial Li-ion tech for industrial applications. Koreans have also been working on their missile launcher module for subs.
You are correct Thakur-ji.

I hope Spain does not pull out, otherwise it will end up in a single vendor situation.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Vidur wrote:My senior colleague Sh Amit Cowsish brings out very important and fundamental issues. I have had the pleasure of working with him some years ago. An IDAS officer and a man with a sharp mind, integrity and a thorough professional. A must watch for serious students of Defence matters.
Vidur-ji, excellent video. He does mention that the Scorpene line can continue...but it will not have AIP.

But since the submarine is compromised, the Navy does not want it. Since it is compromised, then by the 2030s the IN will have zero SSKs.

The Kilos and HDW 209s will be retired and the six Scorpenes are all compromised. What a wonderful situation this is.

P.S. And as per him, DRDO's AIP can be incorporated into the Scorpene when it is ready.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:Japan to enable fighter jet and missile exports to 12 nations
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... 12-nations
27 May 2022
India, Australia, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines among destinations.
Indian defence channels on youtube are reporting - based on the above - that Taigei Class submarines might be offered to India in Project 75I.

But these channels are never reputable and just spin fables from news articles. See this video from 2:08 below...

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vidur »

Rakesh wrote:
Vidur wrote:My senior colleague Sh Amit Cowsish brings out very important and fundamental issues. I have had the pleasure of working with him some years ago. An IDAS officer and a man with a sharp mind, integrity and a thorough professional. A must watch for serious students of Defence matters.
Vidur-ji, excellent video. He does mention that the Scorpene line can continue...but it will not have AIP.

But since the submarine is compromised, the Navy does not want it. Since it is compromised, then by the 2030s the IN will have zero SSKs.

The Kilos and HDW 209s will be retired and the six Scorpenes are all compromised. What a wonderful situation this is.

P.S. And as per him, DRDO's AIP can be incorporated into the Scorpene when it is ready.
That vendor is being quite difficult. It's not about the leaks alone. You will note that the only time I have ever written about a particular piece of equipment on this forum was about the submarine situation a few months ago.

However moving away from submarines you have missed the more important points that Sh Cowsish makes. See it again, read between lines and make notes. Drop prejudices against services to understand what he is saying and what the problem is. Solutions can only be found when you realise the problem.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vidur »

suryag wrote:...
Good ideas but still do not address the core problem.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Adrija »

Vidur ji, many thanks for posting the video!

A noob question prompted by a statement by the interviewer ("long term should INnot focus on only nuclear subs")- I thought IN prefers diesel-electric submarines for the Western Fleet given the superior acoustics and relatively shallower waters of the Arabian Sea? Is that understanding correct? If so, then are we not compelled to maintain both nuclear and diesel-electric subs for a long time to come?

Related question- if the diesel electric fleet is to be limited to Western Fleet and Pukistan, how many do we need? Perhaps at most say 6? In which case is it even worth it to make these indigenously? Are we not better off concentrating our efforts in building up say a fleet of ~ 12-15 SSNs/ SSKs and 3 A/C carriers?

TIA
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Post by Vidur »

The answer to this question will depend on the perceptions of IN and Government and there are a range of perceptions on this. My personal perception is that submarines are the only true platforms of offence and we are very weak in submarines. Just have a look at the threat environment.

It is in the public domain that national plan is to have 12 SSKs and 06 SSNs in near future and then 12 SSKs and 12 SSNs.

Your suggestion has merit in my view.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Vidur wrote:
That vendor is being quite difficult. It's not about the leaks alone. You will note that the only time I have ever written about a particular piece of equipment on this forum was about the submarine situation a few months ago.

However moving away from submarines you have missed the more important points that Sh Cowsish makes. See it again, read between lines and make notes. Drop prejudices against services to understand what he is saying and what the problem is. Solutions can only be found when you realise the problem.
Can you add some context to issues with Vendor. I know DCN hasn’t been easy to work with.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ashishvikas »

Mazagon Dock CMD Vice Adm Narayan Prasad suggests bold steps in trials & testing of Scorpene submarines

https://twitter.com/prakharkgupta/statu ... J7LDA&s=19 --->
“I am just completing my last of the six (Scorpene) submarines in collaboration with the Naval Group. They have a style of functioning that they would not share with you: the technology,” Vice Admiral Narayan Prasad (Retd), CMD of Mazagon Dock, said.

“In fact, after the second Scorpene, I did not need any assistance...But, if I have to build a submarine all by myself..then there is a problem because certain components of empirical data, which they have evolved over a period of time, are not shared with us.”

“One of my submarines is right now at sea for missile firing to demonstrate to our customer, during which the entire range is tracked for compliance purposes. When these things come, the reference is all given by them, something which they have not shared with us.”

“They will come with their own laptops and do it very quickly, the moment you are close to them they will shut it (laptop) down, so that does not get shared with us.”
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Prem Kumar »

ashishvikas wrote: https://twitter.com/prakharkgupta/statu ... J7LDA&s=19 --->
“They will come with their own laptops and do it very quickly, the moment you are close to them they will shut it (laptop) down, so that does not get shared with us.”
This is where our espionage wing needs to muscle-up. Wine & dine the foreign consultants/engineers and when they are away from their laptops, vacuum up the data within (yes, break the encryption etc)
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ashishvikas »

According to Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL), it has the capacity to construct 11 Diesel-Electric Submarines simultaneously.

They'll be at different stages of construction, of course.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/153 ... qTpNw&s=19
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