Project 75I - It Begins

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jaysimha
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by jaysimha »

kit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »


good nuggets relevant to other threads .. no engine manuf selected., C 295 may not be screwdriver tech as we thought ., drone ecosystem booming; "With this new wave of defense innovation, one of us startups—QNu– have done quantum crypto computing technology at a distance of 150 km, which is the farthest in the world. They are working with the Indian Army." Interesting i was laughed at for even suggesting Indian capabilities on this field 5 years back .. :mrgreen:
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by NRao »

kit wrote:
; "With this new wave of defense innovation, one of us startups—QNu– have done quantum crypto computing technology at a distance of 150 km, which is the farthest in the world.
Only as a FYI. A Swiss company, as of June 8, 2022:

Terra Quantum announces 40,000kms quantum cryptography breakthrough
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Keeping in mind self-reliance, work on an indigenously developed conventional submarine is in progress, the Vice Chief of Naval Staff, Vice Admiral S.N. Ghormade, said today. He said naval design teams were working on it and India had the capability and potential to design one.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

^^^ We do the right thing after exhausting all alternatives :lol:
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> Defence Ministry has once again extended the deadline to submit responses to the Request For Proposal (RFP) in the over ₹40,000 crore deal for six advanced submarines under Project-75(I) to December end.

Bid date for mega submarine building project extended again, to Dec end
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 647750.ece
16 July 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

^ ^ ^ ^ ^

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> Considering the stipulations of the RFP:
1. Deep tech transfer to domestic SP partner.
2. A near new sub design from scratch that has both VLS and AIP in the 4,000 ton class.
3. High liabilities long after commissioning and operations, the ₹ 40,000 crore tag won't cut it anywhere close.

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> My suggestion for the P75I project -

* Convert it into a project of national importance under PMO.
* Double the budget for the program
* Navy wanted an unlimited license on the design.
* Combine P-76 with P-75I as an upgraded version of P75I that's fully SDB, Navy owned.

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 2ek8BStsZQ ---> The Navy anyway has an excellent record of indigenization and alongwith MDL can make that leap if afforded the right money and deal for P75I. Bean counting on the P75I budget won't get us anywhere. Open the purse strings Modi-ji.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by arvin »

Looks so out of place that the design for our nuclear attack submarine is nearing completion by 2023 while much simpler diesel submarines exist only as khayali fish biryani in the minds of MOD and Navy.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

I think that the project 75I is dead for all intended purposes. The body just hasn't learnt about it.

The Indian Navy design beuro is completing the design for project 76. A 3000 tons SSK with AIP. With design expected to be completed by the end of 2023.

This submarine should be approved for construction by 2025.

I guess it's time to move beyond this program.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

P75I is Navy's MRFA. They won't understand nor will they give up. And this, before they have seen the price. Once the commercial bids are opened (that looks unlikely), the MoF is going to collectively faint at the price tag
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Ankit Desai »

Another view with P75I & Nuclear Submarine update.

India’s submarine plans hit by dwindling fleet as Navy decommissions INS Sindhudhvaj
The P75I project, which is being pursued under “Strategic Partnership” – to be built in India through a collaboration between a foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and an Indian entity – remains in limbo because multiple foreign companies have chosen to stay away.
The sources, however, said the Germans have also expressed their inability because they feel that the strategic partnership is skewed in favour of the Indian entity which they have the majority share in the joint venture. In contrast, the OEM is to be held responsible for delivery and even shortfalls.

Such has been poor response that the Navy has gone ahead and extended the date for submission of bids to end of December this year from the already extended date of June end.

The foreign companies have sought tweaking of the strategic partnership as well as removal of the clause for an in service AIP system.
-Ankit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by sum »

Doesn’t this entire saga cast a poor light on the technical capabilities of the IN if RFQs are so poorly drafted that all vendors reject or are unable to meet them even after a zillion years of back and forth ( and this is even before it comes to pricing which will blow the socks off any govt it is sent to approve)?

I guess this was repeatedly predicted in the threads opened more than a decade( or was it 15 years) back and it stays at same state even today!
Literal monty python stuff!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

sum wrote:Doesn’t this entire saga cast a poor light on the technical capabilities of the IN if RFQs are so poorly drafted that all vendors reject or are unable to meet them even after a zillion years of back and forth ( and this is even before it comes to pricing which will blow the socks off any govt it is sent to approve)?

I guess this was repeatedly predicted in the threads opened more than a decade( or was it 15 years) back and it stays at same state even today!
Literal monty python stuff!
Well , the IN tries at least , would you rather have them dilute the tech transfer requirements and buy off the shelf like what the IAF is trying to do ?

I say go for it, IN . You have a plan B at least and with funding and effort you will get there. I am proud of them .
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Khalsa »

Best to order a repeat order with the French and get over it.
We are miles away from having strategically independent sub building capacity in the conventional sub space.
Yet somehow we have two nuclear assets that we built. What is missing here?

Is this another Tejas vs MRFA saga underwater ?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Khalsa wrote:Best to order a repeat order with the French and get over it.
We are miles away from having strategically independent sub building capacity in the conventional sub space.
Yet somehow we have two nuclear assets that we built. What is missing here?

Is this another Tejas vs MRFA saga underwater ?

No., this is the last hurdle for indigenisation., the "foreign powers that matter" know this. The IAFs "MRFA" and Navys " P75 i" . Funnily they havent given up on IAF (despite desi alternative) hence the push and shove for MRFA while in the Navy's case it was straight forth technology denial.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

South Korea and Spain defence majors ready to participate in P-75(I) submarine project
https://www.theigmp.org/2022/07/south-k ... oject.html
19 July 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... P3_AVUa_eg ---> The South Korean KS-III is now leading the Indian Navy's next generation submarine competition (Project 75I).
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

MoD allows changes in Navy's $7 billion Project-75I submarine tender, no change in capability requirements
https://www.theigmp.org/2022/08/mod-all ... ments.html
06 August 2022
As per sources, the Defence Ministry had received a proposal for the removal of the clause for “joint and severe liability” from the tender. The Defence Ministry had also taken “proper and detailed” legal advice before finalising the changes to the tender.
As per the proposal considered by the Defence Ministry, the Strategic Partner would be held responsible for its work share whereas earlier this responsibility was also to be taken by the foreign partner. The foreign partner would now be responsible and liable only for its share of work in the project.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ULTIMATEDEFENC9/sta ... P3_AVUa_eg ---> India's MoD has given its approval for amendments in the ongoing $7 billion tender for building six new submarines (P-75I) for the Indian Navy, the step would allow the project to move forward.

Image
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/ULTIMATEDEFENC9/sta ... P3_AVUa_eg ---> India's MoD has given its approval for amendments in the ongoing $7 billion tender for building six new submarines (P-75I) for the Indian Navy, the step would allow the project to move forward.
$7 bn is an eye watering sum for SSK and after india has already played this ‘ToT’ game 2 times in the past 30 years. At what time is it time to back yourself?

Another boondoggle that’s not coming this side of 2030.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Seriously.

The nation can build nuclear submarines. But needs technical assistance for building diesel electric submarine. That is after building 2 seperate European submarine classes over the last 30 years.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:Seriously.

The nation can build nuclear submarines. But needs technical assistance for building diesel electric submarine. That is after building 2 seperate European submarine classes over the last 30 years.
Problem is we always want gold plated submarine that’s reason why we never bothered reverse engineering U-209s or building a modified Scorpene. Rather than progressively improve a design which Ironically what Korea choose to do with its U-209 (they even had inferior version that what we purchased).
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by KSingh »

Pratyush wrote:Seriously.

The nation can build nuclear submarines. But needs technical assistance for building diesel electric submarine. That is after building 2 seperate European submarine classes over the last 30 years.
But THIS time it will be different, right??

Not only is this the very definition of insanity but the lack of urgency is just as alarming. At this rate the PN will have as many SSK as the IN by the 2030s thanks to Chinese help


Build ~6, then throw away all that capacity for the next 10+ years and start again is not a winning strategy
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

The amazing thing is that the French are offering a paper submarine that is a diesel electric version of a nuclear submarine. But Indian Navy cannot think in terms of designing a diesel electric version of Arihant.

It's not going to be any different from the last 2 times. Because for things to become different. The user will have to be thinking of such item's as war fighting tools and not shinny toys.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by KSingh »

Pratyush wrote:The amazing thing is that the French are offering a paper submarine that is a diesel electric version of a nuclear submarine. But Indian Navy cannot think in terms of designing a diesel electric version of Arihant.

It's not going to be any different from the last 2 times. Because for things to become different. The user will have to be thinking of such item's as war fighting tools and not shinny toys.
DRDO has already developed the most cutting edge element (AIP), Arihant itself is a SSN version of a SSK (Kilo) to a large extent.

All the elements are there but instead of trying to stitch them together back to the off the shelf solutions for the third time in as many decades all whilst PLAN is churning out subs like toys


It’s not just bizarre it’s negligent behaviour
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:Seriously.

The nation can build nuclear submarines. But needs technical assistance for building diesel electric submarine. That is after building 2 seperate European submarine classes over the last 30 years.

some specific technologies relating to conventional submarines still not available in the country as far as i understand
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

1) Are those technologies not available to India as a commercial products. For an indigenous diesel electric submarine?

2) if point 1 is correct, then why is the Indian defence establishment so sure that they will be available as a part of a new submarine purchase.

3) lastly are these technologies so high end that a determined effort by India will not help us get them through indigenous efforts?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by KSingh »

kit wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Seriously.

The nation can build nuclear submarines. But needs technical assistance for building diesel electric submarine. That is after building 2 seperate European submarine classes over the last 30 years.

some specific technologies relating to conventional submarines still not available in the country as far as i understand
Even after the last 2 TOT SSK efforts? What does that mean we can expect from this next effort?

If they are not available does that mean they cannot be developed? Maybe if they stopped obsessing over P75I and had stated P76 as their objective 10+ years ago such tech would be available in india today.


The IN is making this another chicken and egg situation- we need the imports to create domestic industry but we need domestic industry to make our ships. At some point the cycle has to be broken otherwise you are committing yourself for imports forever


All that money invested at MDL for what?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

KSingh wrote:
Pratyush wrote:The amazing thing is that the French are offering a paper submarine that is a diesel electric version of a nuclear submarine. But Indian Navy cannot think in terms of designing a diesel electric version of Arihant.

It's not going to be any different from the last 2 times. Because for things to become different. The user will have to be thinking of such item's as war fighting tools and not shinny toys.
DRDO has already developed the most cutting edge element (AIP), Arihant itself is a SSN version of a SSK (Kilo) to a large extent.

All the elements are there but instead of trying to stitch them together back to the off the shelf solutions for the third time in as many decades all whilst PLAN is churning out subs like toys


It’s not just bizarre it’s negligent behaviour
I wouldn’t call Arihant to be based on Kilo the vessel far larger and influenced by various designs. But modifying it for SSK is bit in practical it is far large than Barracuda, and variant that is being offered for SSK export is shorter variant of what is already a small SSN. Also Barracuda is better optimized for noise reduction while sacrificing payload capability which is what you want with a SSK.

But given the way we already have three most widely exported SSKs in arsenal it is much easier to reverse engineer and simply build one of them and progressively make them larger.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by YashG »

We made a nuclear submarine because we werent allowed to import it. SSK, we can, so we will not make it. Import lobby.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by bala »

It looks like the import lobby has 3 prongs one in the service, one in MOD and one in politicos, very hard to shake these buggers from Indian budgets. India again is lacking in engine technology, the saga repeats. No concerted effort to make these things on your own. Really how hard can it be? We did our own in space - liquid, solid and cryongenic engines. A diesel electric engine for subs we can't build, same goes for tanks, same goes for railways, aircrafts, etc. We have IITs, NITs for R&D besides DRDO, private companies making engines, all it takes is good program management and leadership. Why do we go for endless tie-ups, ToTs and so on. Are those chaps better than Indians. Dr. Nambi Narayanan who created the Vikas engine, noted that India had bright people who can solve any challenge if given the chance. A welder of aluminium from ISRO did a perfect job in 1 attempt, whereas the french welders took many attempts. In the various ToTs in HAL, our people understood complex things quite well and suggested various solutions (but alas not permitted since we have the terms of ToT not to tinker with stuff). There is talent oozing out everywhere in India, we don't seem to channel it appropriately and take advantage of human power.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

German comeback in P-75I to boost Indian Navy's Tender
https://www.theigmp.org/2022/08/german- ... ender.html
08 Aug 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Spain emerging as one of India’s strong defence partners
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 85559.html
09 August 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

YashG wrote:We made a nuclear submarine because we werent allowed to import it. SSK, we can, so we will not make it. Import lobby.
That's where the import ban comes in . The dalalis and cohorts are fighting this covertly and overtly. I hope PMO takes the call at some point !!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 4YDkzl8pww ---> Report: P-75I submarine contract unlikely to be awarded before 2024.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Indian P76 submarines impeded by rudderless P75I program
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/nava ... programme/
12 August 2022
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by ragupta »

P75I must go to private Industry, likely L&T.
Let MDL/Naval War ship design work on P76 as an extended Scorpene with larger displacement having space for all domestic tech required for future need. Maybe a 3000/3500 ton sub or even smaller, but must be domestic design with locally developed tech.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

I have never understood why the project 75I has to be a new design. Why should it not be an improved P75?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

^^^So that all things need redesigning and initially import as knockdown kits!!
'M' Express ke liya indan to chahiye na saar.
Father-in-law retired from HAL after working 30+ years in the Machine Tool Designing (Copter Division)
In those days every bit of the machine tool etc had to be hand drawn.
Took long time even if everybody worked really hard(and many did not on the night shifts)
Atleast now you have IT/Computer tool designing and three D printing
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by bala »

Terms of Indian Navy’s mega submarine deal unrealistic: Russian official

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 771922.ece
August 15, 2022

₹40,000 crore project, out of which Russia pulled out, can’t move forward without changes, says senior official
Russia, which has pulled out of the Indian Navy’s tender for the construction of six advanced submarines under Project-75I, has informed India that it cannot meet the terms and conditions for the over ₹40,000 crore project. Terming it unrealistic, a senior Russian official said on Monday that without any changes in the entire process, the process cannot move forward.

“The requirement stated in the Request For Proposal (RFP) demanded very strict timelines and a lot of responsibility to the designer. At the same time, designer has no control over the construction, which happens in India,” said Andrey Baranov, Deputy Director General, Rubin Design Bureau, speaking at the inaugural day of the Army-2022 expo. “We are the first ones to leave the project and the last one we know to leave the project is France,” he said.

Stating that the project is very good as far as design is concerned, Mr. Baranov said where the implementation in India is concerned, “it is not so good and so there is nothing happening”. “So, without any changes in the entire process, nothing will happen,” he said.

The Defence Ministry has once again extended the deadline to submit responses from June 30 by another six months till December end, and the Navy has also approached the Ministry for relaxation of certain specifications that have made most submarine manufacturers non-compliant. The deal is the first under the Strategic Partnership model of the procurement procedure to make progress.

Their major concern is the requirements specified by the Indian Navy and the arrangement for this are not matching, Mr. Baranov said. Elaborating, he said Indian Navy would like transfer of technology, have state of the art submarine with powerful missiles, stealth and so on but none of the world Navies have prototype of similar submarine. So we are talking of development of an absolutely new submarine, he said.

Mr. Baranov noted that the key part of the RFP is that construction will be done in India and if the timelines are not met, the “penalties are very high”.

“We have been saying from the beginning that building the first submarine of the class is not possible within this timeline,” he stated, and added, “We understand that when the first ship of the class is constructed there will be lot of problems which is natural for the process of development.”

In January 2020, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro Limited (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75I deal. The five foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEM) include Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia), and TKMS (Germany).

The RFP was issued in July 2021 to MDL and L&T, with 12 weeks time to respond. The Indian companies are free to tie up with any of the five OEMs that were shortlisted earlier.

However, the project ran into rough weather, among other things, over one of the specifications mentioned, that the submarine on offer should have an operational Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) module. Only Germany and South Korea technically meet this criteria, official sources said.

In addition, most of the OEMs expressed concerns over the timelines, extent of technology transfer, and third party guarantees.

Project-75(I) envisages indigenous construction of six modern conventional submarines with contemporary equipment, weapons and sensors, including Fuel-Cell based Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, advanced torpedoes, modern missiles, and state-of-the-art countermeasure systems.

The Navy currently has 15 conventional and one nuclear submarine in service. It includes seven Russian Kilo class submarines, four German HDW submarines, four French Scorpene submarines, and the indigenous nuclear ballistic missile submarine INS Arihant. The last two of the Scorpene class submarines are in various stages of trials and outfitting.
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