Project 75I - It Begins

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Nihat
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Nihat »

We find ourselves in a similar situation here to the one in mmrca 2.0 and rafale jets. The solution is out there but babudom will drag their feet for no good reason.

We can easily order another 3 scorpene and retrofit them with drdo AIP. Then subsequently focus on developing our own conventional subs.

I have no doubt that both mrca and p75i will end up junked, it's only a matter of how much time will we end up wasting before this happens.
Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

Another 3 Scorpene,equipped with sub-sonic Exocet only, around 150km range, at the rate of more than twice or thrice the time it takes to build a 2500km range Kalibir- equipped Kilo which is also half the price! The Scorpene design has been compromised by the data leaks .Alternatively,German U-boats with a better AIP system are a better western option.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya G »

Philip wrote:...The Scorpene design has been compromised by the data leaks....
PLAN operates Kilos, so data should be easily available to Pakis. So our Kilos are ineffective.

Singapore air force routinely deploys out of India and exercises with IAF. So PAF's F-16s are ineffective.

Turkish Navy operates nearly same u-boats as IN. So our subs are gone.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srin »

Aditya G wrote:
Philip wrote:...The Scorpene design has been compromised by the data leaks....
PLAN operates Kilos, so data should be easily available to Pakis. So our Kilos are ineffective.

Singapore air force routinely deploys out of India and exercises with IAF. So PAF's F-16s are ineffective.

Turkish Navy operates nearly same u-boats as IN. So our subs are gone.
And S-400s too, since PLA (PLAAF ?) has them too. And R-77s and R-73, since PLAAF has them.
mody
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by mody »

And the wait continues for a little longer. The title of this thread should be changed, as for 3 years, nothing has begun.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/techands ... d=msedgntp

Junk the whole unobtanium project and build 3 more Scorpene, while designing a hybrid Scorpene+U209 based design for further subs.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

DAC likely to clear Predator Drone and Project 75I submarines deals in April 2021
https://guardingindia.com/featured/dac- ... pril-2021/
09 March 2021
“All the procedures have been completed and the deals are likely to be taken up at the next meeting of the DAC for approval,” the official said. “There is no DAC in March, the next one is scheduled in April.”
In January 2020, the DAC had shortlisted Mazgaon Docks Limited (MDL) and Larsen & Toubro (L&T) as the Indian partners for the P-75I deal worth over ₹45,000 crore. Once the DAC clears it, the Navy will issue the Request For Proposal (RFP) to the two Indian companies who would respond to it in partnership with a foreign Original Equipment manufacturer (OEM).

The delay in the P-75I deal was the extra caution at each step of the process as this was being done for the first time, the official stated.

This project is being processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) model of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), which aims to promote the role of Indian industry in defence manufacturing and build a domestic defence industrial ecosystem.

While there are two Indian companies shortlisted, there are five foreign OEMs selected. They are Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME)(South Korea), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), Rosoboronexport (Russia) and TKMS (Germany).
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

By the way, media reports have stated that the Naval Group's contract for 12 Shortfin Barracuda (was to be known as Attack Class in the Royal Australian Navy) boats has collapsed. Point to note for the Indian Navy. Reason for collapse was reportedly the cost.

Government submarine contract sunk and unlikely to resurface
https://independentaustralia.net/politi ... face,14846
01 March 2021

Image
Ankit Desai
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Ankit Desai »

The wait for more submarines gets longer! Project 75 I gets delayed further
Two RfPs are to be issued: The Ministry of Defence (MoD) is going to issue the two shortlisted Strategic Partners (SP) – Mumbai based Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders and Larsen & Toubro (L&T). And then, this will be followed by the issuance of RfPs to the OEMs by the SP.

“Legal ambiguity as well as technical issues is holding up the issuance of the RfP. These concerns are in the process of being addressed in the MoD. Once that procedure is completed the RfP will be sent out to four OEMs,” explained a source.
The proposed SP structure leads to contractual challenges. What are these?

1. If there are two SPs and four OEMs, then will the SPs have the right to eliminate two OEMs from the race? Thereby, limiting the chance for the Indian Navy.

2. Will the MoD allow SP to run the elimination process which can partially increase the cost of the project significantly.

3. An OEM who otherwise may have no chance to win the contract because of its expensive solution in a competitive environment can influence the SP to eliminate lower/lower cost OEM by giving a favourable business deal.

4. Finally, in a contract where the SP will have total dependency for TOT on OEM, in such a case who will be responsible to the MoD for the underperformance – SP or OEM?

These are few amongst many issues that are holding back the issuance of the RfP.
Who are the SPs and OEMS?

There are two Strategic Partners – these have been down selected by the Ministry of Defence: M/s MDL and L&T. And there are four OEMs including: The Naval Group of France. This French company is already involved in the `Scorpene’ submarine under Project-75.

There is Navantia of Spain which has offered S-80 (Issac Peral class); TKMS of Germany — Type 218 (Invincible Class) and Rosboronexport of Russia for the Amur.

Besides these four, South Korean company Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering had pitched the KSS-3 submarine in response to the EoI earlier.
-Ankit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by sum »

Why are we even continuing this circus knowing very well that zilch will move ahead for the next 5-10 years atleast, esp with all the lack of spare $$ with GoI?

Cant we just follow-on order from existing lines and be done with it or just repeat the same story as N number of times in the past and end up with nothing in hand? Do we never learn any lessons from the past?
yensoy
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by yensoy »

^^^^ somehow we don't see the cost benefits of scale manufacturing that for instance the Chinese seem to benefit from. Whether we buy in ones and twos or in tens and twenties, the per unit cost seems to be in the same ballpark. If there were to be a strong cost incentive from going with multiple additional units of Scorpene then yes it would be the right step forward.
Pratyush
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

It might be illustrative to read about sabotaging the organizations from within. Before we pull our hair out.

HOW TO SABOTAGE YOUR CORPORATE CULTURE

OR

How to sabotage an organization

OR

How (Not) to Sabotage Your Firm

The entire Indian defense procurement process is suffering from this.
Aditya G
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya G »

Reading these issues just makes me tear my hair out.

I have said this before, aside from the technical nature of the actual weapon system and its manufacturing, the biggest lacuna in our procurement is the overall program management. The babudom wants to reduce everything to a procedure which is impossible for a strategic program where you need to exercise good judgement at multiple points in the process.

Navy should be wiser and simply order more Scorpenes while this circus goes on in parallel.
Ankit Desai wrote:The wait for more submarines gets longer! Project 75 I gets delayed further
Two RfPs are to be issued: The Ministry of Defence (MoD) is going to issue the two shortlisted Strategic Partners (SP) – Mumbai based Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders and Larsen & Toubro (L&T). And then, this will be followed by the issuance of RfPs to the OEMs by the SP.

“Legal ambiguity as well as technical issues is holding up the issuance of the RfP. These concerns are in the process of being addressed in the MoD. Once that procedure is completed the RfP will be sent out to four OEMs,” explained a source.
The proposed SP structure leads to contractual challenges. What are these?

1. If there are two SPs and four OEMs, then will the SPs have the right to eliminate two OEMs from the race? Thereby, limiting the chance for the Indian Navy.

2. Will the MoD allow SP to run the elimination process which can partially increase the cost of the project significantly.

3. An OEM who otherwise may have no chance to win the contract because of its expensive solution in a competitive environment can influence the SP to eliminate lower/lower cost OEM by giving a favourable business deal.

4. Finally, in a contract where the SP will have total dependency for TOT on OEM, in such a case who will be responsible to the MoD for the underperformance – SP or OEM?

These are few amongst many issues that are holding back the issuance of the RfP.
Who are the SPs and OEMS?

There are two Strategic Partners – these have been down selected by the Ministry of Defence: M/s MDL and L&T. And there are four OEMs including: The Naval Group of France. This French company is already involved in the `Scorpene’ submarine under Project-75.

There is Navantia of Spain which has offered S-80 (Issac Peral class); TKMS of Germany — Type 218 (Invincible Class) and Rosboronexport of Russia for the Amur.

Besides these four, South Korean company Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering had pitched the KSS-3 submarine in response to the EoI earlier.
-Ankit
kit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:By the way, media reports have stated that the Naval Group's contract for 12 Shortfin Barracuda (was to be known as Attack Class in the Royal Australian Navy) boats has collapsed. Point to note for the Indian Navy. Reason for collapse was reportedly the cost.

Government submarine contract sunk and unlikely to resurface
https://independentaustralia.net/politi ... face,14846
By February 2020, the Parliamentary Library research service reported that the acquisition cost:

‘... is in the order of $80 billion in out-turned dollars and the estimate for sustainment might roughly work out to be around $145 billion ...’Today, estimates range up to double that quantum.


:shock: .. are those made of platinum :mrgreen:
kit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

part of the answer is right here

https://independentaustralia.net/politi ... ears,14868

It is sheer Government incompetence that leaves annual growth still negative for the third consecutive quarter, a million Australians without a job, wages falling and, as of last Friday, gross debt more than trebled to $31,800 per man, woman and child.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

I agree.Just sign on as we're doing with US milware G-2-G agreements for a new class of U-boats, a new Ru class to replace aging Kilos and a few extra Scorpenes with thf DRDO AIP if it has been perfected.This will savd much time and money.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by durvasa »

Philip wrote:I agree.Just sign on as we're doing with US milware G-2-G agreements for a new class of U-boats, a new Ru class to replace aging Kilos and a few extra Scorpenes with thf DRDO AIP if it has been perfected.This will savd much time and money.
There’s a limit to pimping Russian and foreign shit! :( This dude has full time job marketing Russian stuff in forums.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by S_Madhukar »

I think at this rate it will take a Sugar occupation of islands in the Arabian Sea for our guys to wake up ... Sugar subs are well hidden so public never knows and H&D is saved... we have CBG dreams without investing in subs...if we launched SSBN then surely We should be more comfortable with SSNs
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Vips wrote:Wait, you claim above that 5 new Kilos are available for $1.5 to 2 Billion, so then why are you proposing that India go for 30 year old rust buckets for $2 Billion. Or did you mean to convey that old or new does not matter - it is still junk
OT I already told him and he keeps posting that nonsense last new order for Kilo is from Vietnam and the deal was actually 3.2 billion (incl armaments etc if you want an actual comparable deal with scorpene) for 6 submarines in 2009.

If you adjust it for inflation and our usual gold plating we are talking about cost of around 700 mill each. Hence why Russia is offering rusting hulls instead of new submarines because they know we won’t choose that over scorpene. Sadly given the state of Russian economy and the navy they have fallen behind in diesel submarines design and even Chinese have kicked to the side and moved on.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

These are cost-effective replacements for old boats.3 are brand new,3 upgraded.They are better than Chin subs,armed with the 2500km Kalibir missile and Klub variants. They are being built in 2 years time,6 new boats 3 delivered to the RuN for their Pacific fleet. Since we've operated them for a long time they will be easy to induct.Read the scathing criticism of the Scorpene deal by the CAG,squarely blaming the French for delays,lack of transferring tech and cost escalation. If the Kilo is so bad,why has the IN decided to upgrade the lot? They are excellent for the littorals as well as blue-water ops, read USN reports about the Kilo and if you remember in an IN- US exercise not too long ago,an IN Kilo bested a USN LA class SSN. John please get your costs right.Check the same with recent sales,etc.The official current upgrade cost of an IN Kilo is only $200 M ,giving it at least another decade of service. It is for these reasons that the IN is considering the same.

It also has another very useful purpose, as these boats can be built in Ru,built at speed,inducted early, keeping the MDL line open for the P-75I line,best bet for building German U-boats after the French fiasco. HSL can concentrate on building our two N-sub classes,the Arihant SSBN class and the propsed new SSN class.

This is the Vikrant td. Let's move subs elsewhere. Let's keep to topic and concentrate on its issues.I brought up the subject of carrier integral air/missile and sub/ torpedo defence.Do you have any thoughts on that?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Philip wrote:These are cost-effective replacements for old boats.3 are brand new,3 upgraded.
We are OT, Once again they are not brand new they are 3 incomplete hulls likely from Soviet era. There is no plan to buy Kalibr please stop bringing it up in every discussion.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

John wrote:
Philip wrote:These are cost-effective replacements for old boats.3 are brand new,3 upgraded.
We are OT, Once again they are not brand new they are 3 incomplete hulls likely from Soviet era. There is no plan to buy Kalibr please stop bringing it up in every discussion.
They were not even 3 incomplete hulls, They were 30 year old "used hulls". BS is BS does not matter how it is portrayed.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

The hulls being upgraded right now are IN hulls both in Russia and at HSL! If they were crap why would the IN upgrade them? Stop using intemperate lingo,argue on merit offering better alternatives.Do we have a ready desi diesel/ AIP sub available? NO! We haven't even tested our AIP system aboard a sub which must be done to validate it. We are yet to master sub tech, are 5 yrs. behind the firang Scorpenes,at huge extra cost too and our entire N-sub programme has heavy Ru content.Why are we leasing extra Akulas then if we are so good at manufacturing subs? Don't abuse me,do it to the IN, MOD and GOI!

The latest Kilo 636.3 the Magadan, upgraded even more ,the 3rd. of 6 new for the RuN's Pacific fleet has just been launched, keel laid down in 2019,will be commissioned in 2021. That's just 2 years for a far more lethal version of legacy Kilos. Kalibir/ Klub capable.Not a single western sub has the equivalent of the Kalibir/ Klub series of universal missile for anti-ship,land attack and anti-sub ops.

To avoid the years of fillibustering with the P-75I progr.,the GOI as said before should do a G-2-G deal with a firang supplier.The Scorpene sub tech. is now old in the tooth, data exposed and the French bad partners,read the CAG report. We've had no problem with our German U-boats , they've proven excellent for the littorals as SSKs and also being upgraded and to keep a western line open should procure the latest in German U-boat tech.German sub tech. is the most popular around the world being used by SoKo,S'pore,Israel,and even the Indonesian order from SoKo has German sub- tech in it. The extra Kilos available for around $2B as per reports,will keep the Kilo fleet going for another 15 yrs. at least at low cost. Their successor could be sought later while emphasis is given to new U-boats and the SSN programme.

If there are better solutions,kindly post them with details, but what is not in Q is the current crisis in the IN's sub fleet which needs to bd addressed immediately. The P-75I route isn't going to deliver anytime soon.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

So if someone presents facts you call it abusing - Really?

Your one sided propaganda is clear and everyone can see it.

Just see some example's:
- Scorpene technologically is 'old in the tooth' while Kilo which is even more vintage origin with upgrades (lipstick on a pig) is more capable. :lol:
If Kilo is so good with the claimed long range strike options then why is GOI not committing to it?

- France is bad partner. They are better and more trustworthy then the Russians who did not support India in the UN session in 2019. When China tried to table an anti India resolution on Article 370 in J&K, it was the French who vetoed it unequivocally by not even allowing it to be tabled for discussion before it was formally introduced as a resolution. What was Russia doing? Hiding behind technicalities and not committing to support India.

Imports of big ticket items is a strategic move and procuring German subs though good will not be an option if we can buy a equally good or even a little inferior system form a Veto power holding country. Hence it is the French who have emerged as our Strategic partner while the Russians choose to be a lap dog for the Chinese.

-You have been multiple times quoting CAG reports against Scorpene to butter up the case for Kilo. what about the multiple CAG reports against Russian imports? Check the T-90 fraud that Russia played against India and of course you will be blind about the multiple CAG reports against it. Russia took advantage of the TINA factor.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by darshhan »

By the way how does the kilo fare against scorpene in terms of performance especially acoustic profile?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

darshhan wrote:By the way how does the kilo fare against scorpene in terms of performance especially acoustic profile?
https://malaysiamilitarypower.blogspot. ... ce-in.html
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

Russians against India,what rubbish! Who's giving us a second Akula,JV on BMos,etc.? Almost all our cutting edge milware is from Russia. Did you read the report of Lavrov's visit with Jaishankar? Did you read the CAG report on the Scorpene fiasco,5 yrs. late, extra cost, poor cooperation on TOT from the French? If the Kilo is junk,ask the IN why they want all upgraded?

Anyway,those with blinkers will not see a wider picture. I am not as one can see from my posts advocating a new Ru sub for the P-75I req,only extra upgraded Kilos at low cost, so that the Kilo fleet,the backbone of the IN's sub fleet as of now with 8 subs, fitted with the latest weaponry not available on western conventional subs, can remain in service strength for another decade.The infra. for support,spares,etc.plus a corps of submariners trained on the Kilo is in existence. Kilo replacements a decade from now could be either a new Ru design ,a desi design,or a JV with desi input if we have by then still not caught up with the latest sub tech.

I have for several years advocated a new line of German U-boats,superior to the Scorpene to be sealed in a G-2-G agreement to save time. We've had an excellent history with our U-209s and but for VP Singh's allegations about HDW kickbacks- found baseless a couple of decades later, we would've had at least 8+ U-boats and their follow-on upgrades by now making the P-75I req. which will take a long time to decide, redundant.

The nuclear subs programme is another issue,v.glad that the GOI has given the green light for the 3+3 SSNs over a 3rd. CV. SSN/SSGNs are reqd. for support of our SSBNs,CBGs and forward blue water ops against the enemy.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by darshhan »

kit wrote:
darshhan wrote:By the way how does the kilo fare against scorpene in terms of performance especially acoustic profile?
https://malaysiamilitarypower.blogspot. ... ce-in.html
Thanks for the link. While Kilo is itself very quiet, the scorpene is even quieter.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

Quieting data will be most highly classified, but in general all our sub classes are pretty quiet,esp. in the littorals.No too long ago one of our Kilos bested an LA class USN SSN. Swedish diesel subs have also had a field day against US naval forces in exercises. Why to successfully prosecute a sub you need so many assets. We musn't make the mistake of Oz with our P-75I class reqs. expecting them to be non-nuclear equivalents of huge tonnage. We need two classes of non-nuclear subs,SSKs focussing on anti-sub,anti-ship warfare and gen. purpose subs with land attack capabilities as well.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Paul »

I have for several years advocated a new line of German U-boats,superior to the Scorpene to be sealed in a G-2-G agreement to save time. We've had an excellent history with our U-209s and but for VP Singh's allegations about HDW kickbacks- found baseless a couple of decades later, we would've had at least 8+ U-boats.......

The Germans had sold the Submarine blueprints to Apartheid S Africa in violation of the contract...
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

Yes they did! Strange we never went for them for violating the contract.Nevertheless ,that was decades ago. The 209 has been overtaken by the 212,214,216,218SG for S'pore too. Then there'as the Dolphin class subs for the Israelis which carry Israel's strat . missiles too. After operating our 209/1500s for decades we could well arrive at a cutting edge U-boat design for our reqs.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

darshhan wrote:
Thanks for the link. While Kilo is itself very quiet, the scorpene is even quieter.
Kilo drawback and strength is it how it achieved quietness with double hull design rather which allows it to be quiet without having to develop new materials and design like scorpene. However this comes at great cost because it reduces internal volume and increase maintenance cost.
However bigger drawback is Kilos outdated CMS and batteries , all important combat management system was behind its time even compared to likes of u-209. Russian Batteries are also inferior but I believe we have switched and are using domestic batteries (Exide) which have even been exported to other countries that operate Kilo. Currently working on batteries that can compete with ones Japanese have.
Amur was supposed address these drawbacks but it’s domestic variant Lada is stuck in limbo given the dwindling funds for Russian navy.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by darshhan »

John wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Thanks for the link. While Kilo is itself very quiet, the scorpene is even quieter.
Kilo drawback and strength is it how it achieved quietness with double hull design rather which allows it to be quiet without having to develop new materials and design like scorpene. However this comes at great cost because it reduces internal volume and increase maintenance cost.
However bigger drawback is Kilos outdated CMS and batteries , all important combat management system was behind its time even compared to likes of u-209. Russian Batteries are also inferior but I believe we have switched and are using domestic batteries (Exide) which have even been exported to other countries that operate Kilo. Currently working on batteries that can compete with ones Japanese have.
Amur was supposed address these drawbacks but it’s domestic variant Lada is stuck in limbo given the dwindling funds for Russian navy.
Exactly. Pity that Russians after developing kilos in eighties has been giving less priority to further SSK technology development. One can only guess by this time how much advanced they would have been if they had continued with further refinement of Kilo technology.

Instead they are more obsessed with nuke subs both SSBNs and SSNs specifically Borei and Yassen class.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

John wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Thanks for the link. While Kilo is itself very quiet, the scorpene is even quieter.
Kilo drawback and strength is it how it achieved quietness with double hull design rather which allows it to be quiet without having to develop new materials and design like scorpene. However this comes at great cost because it reduces internal volume and increase maintenance cost.
However bigger drawback is Kilos outdated CMS and batteries , all important combat management system was behind its time even compared to likes of u-209. Russian Batteries are also inferior but I believe we have switched and are using domestic batteries (Exide) which have even been exported to other countries that operate Kilo. Currently working on batteries that can compete with ones Japanese have.
Amur was supposed address these drawbacks but it’s domestic variant Lada is stuck in limbo given the dwindling funds for Russian navy.
US/Western submarines were always superior to the Russian as they were quieter and hence difficult to detect. Russia surreptiously acquired hardware from Toshiba to make the Kilos. Russians did not otherwise have the technological capability/tools to compete against the US/Western submarines.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by John »

Vips wrote:US/Western submarines were always superior to the Russian as they were quieter and hence difficult to detect. Russia surreptiously acquired hardware from Toshiba to make the Kilos.
Russians had all the chance to Improve given the access to western technology in 00s (see S-350/S-400) but they squandered it in constant shifting of priorities, lack of focus and rampant corruption. Lada is case study in what’s wrong with Russian military complex, big dreams and utter failure to deliver any of them (everything from AIP, hull design, tiles, CMS, sonar, propulsion and engines have been delayed or failed). Lada failure ultimately impacted us greatly as we seem eager to split part of P-75i with a “Russian” option rather than develop a domestic option using U-209.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Drag & drop picture into new window....

https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status ... 56032?s=20 ---> New cutaway, happy Friday.

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Thakur_B
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Thakur_B »

John wrote:
darshhan wrote:
Thanks for the link. While Kilo is itself very quiet, the scorpene is even quieter.
Russian Batteries are also inferior but I believe we have switched and are using domestic batteries (Exide) which have even been exported to other countries that operate Kilo. Currently working on batteries that can compete with ones Japanese have.
Not just Exide, HBL and possibly Amara Raja too. HBL won the last couple of tenders iirc.
SSridhar
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SSridhar »

Thakur_B wrote:Not just Exide, HBL and possibly Amara Raja too. HBL won the last couple of tenders iirc.
Certainly High Energy Batteries Ltd, for sure. It has been supplying the IN for a long time and are pioneering.
Philip
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

Look at the latest Ru N subs ( Borei,Yasen,et .) and their weaponry and analysis by the USN,etc. They're as good if not better in some respects than their US counterparts. Their spl. purpose subs like the Belgorod with Kanyon/ Status nuclear powered N- torpedoes are unique. Can't be stopped like BMs. There are several secret spl. purpose subs like Losharik which has 7 spherical hulls inside for deep sea ops. I've for ages said that in addition to budgeting for the sub fleet,we must have research programmes using specialised subs .Otherwise we will always have to depend upon sub tech from east or west.

Yes,the Lada/Amur took a while perfecting, but new ones are being built for the RuN along with late model Kilos. A new conv.AIP sub the Kalina is in the works. The RuN is concentrating upon the N-sub fleet,the pillar of its strat defence.Recently,3 SSBNs broke polar ice simultaneously within close proximity of each other. A first. The USN was highly impressed as manouevring under ice whose depths sometimes reach the ocean floor and breaking through was no mean feat.On evaluation it said that the 3 SSBNs,2 Deltas and 1 Borei, carried a combined payload of approx 280 N-warheads.

Our slow progress on the P-75 I should be abandoned for a G-2-G deal for one of the latest U-boats with our reqd. specs. The Scorpene data was leaked and France gave Oz. a promise never to give India better sub- tech than its own subs to clinch the deal.
We have 8 Kilos,all being upgraded,will serve for another decade. Their replacement could be decided much later.
Manish_P
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_P »

Philip wrote:..Recently,3 SSBNs broke polar ice simultaneously within close proximity of each other. A first. The USN was highly impressed as manouevring under ice whose depths sometimes reach the ocean floor and breaking through was no mean feat...
<OT> No doubt it's no mean feat, but i am not sure if it is the first.. The USN did it a few years ago (pause at around 1:21)



</OT>
kit
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

SSridhar wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Not just Exide, HBL and possibly Amara Raja too. HBL won the last couple of tenders iirc.
Certainly High Energy Batteries Ltd, for sure. It has been supplying the IN for a long time and are pioneering.
Other than Li battery management tech, the newer subs could benefit from pump jet propulsion for enhanced stealth.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... submarines

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Propellers and pump-jets are among the most important and sometimes sensitive components of a submarine class. The highly intricate design art that gives birth to these systems balances efficiency and speed, and even weight, against acoustic signature. It's a fascinating mix of material science, mechanical engineering, and hydrodynamics.

Pump-jet propulsors also feature better efficiency across most all but the low-end of a submarine's performance envelope. They protect the blade elements contained within them. They can also be handy in shallow water, especially if they have a nozzle or deflecting surfaces for thrust vectoring. There are drawbacks, as well. They are heavy, making them ill-suited for many smaller submarine designs, and they are costlier and more complex than a propeller.

also relevant
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... -signature

Generally speaking, the propellers on combat submarines are usually considered quite sensitive for a number of reasons, one of which is that adversaries could supposedly get an idea of the acoustic characteristics of the boat if they have detailed images of the propeller's geometry. This clearly wasn't a concern for the German Navy or ThyssenKrupp who builds the Type 212s when U36 was christened in 2013. It is the newest Type 212 in service with the German Navy.

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The cylindrical PBVD system sits over the hub of traditional submarine propellers. Its specially machined core works to greatly decrease turbulence and cavitation that emits from the spinning hub. This not only cuts down on the propeller's audible signature, but it also improves propulsion efficiency and thrust.

"Weakening the propeller hub vortex behind the propeller decreases propeller resistance and manifests itself as increased thrust. The deflection of the flow aft of the propeller by the optimized profiled fins reduces the propeller torque. In addition to the improved propulsive efficiency, the new Wärtsilä EnergoProFin propeller can also be applied to reduced propeller-induced noise and vibrations."

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