Project 75I - It Begins

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

Three subs simultaneously surfacing through the ice in close proximity to each other.That's probably unique. USN subs have been surfacing in Artic ice for decades. I think the first sub at the Pole too.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Posting in this thread, as it ties into the Project 75I program.

India to retire first Kilo-class submarine this year
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-04-20
20 April 2021
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14331
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya_V »

1 Kilo lost in accident, 1 given to Myanmar, 1 retired , 3 Scorpenes in meanwhile have been inducted, I suppose the 1 given to Myanmar was the HSL Vizag one, the 1 retired is a non upgraded one.
Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5128
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_Sharma »

---WRONG THREAD----
Last edited by Rakesh on 22 Apr 2021 02:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please post in the correct thread
arvin
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by arvin »

The first submarine of S80 class, Issac Perl built by Navantia for Spanish Navy will be launched today.
This link is for the live telecast at some time after 4.00 pm IST.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlmbbtaOz20

It is one of the contenders for P75I.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

For heaven's sake IN, since new built subs will take aeons to arrive,please lease more Akulas from Ru and U-boats,whatever from the west. Take a second look at the Kilos on offer just to maintain about 6 to 8 combat worthy through this decade until the P-75I successors arrive, as right now they are the only subs that can carry 300km+ anti-ship and land attack missiles. We need two sub lines,the P-75I and a parallel line,one from the east and one from the west. A G-2-G for German U-boats would shorten delivery time,even our U-209s are of 3 decades vintage.
Maria
BRFite
Posts: 212
Joined: 15 Aug 2020 13:50

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Maria »

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 228646.cms

Step 1 of 2 completed in clearing these critical subs
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

DAC has cleared the P-75I?

The leading contenders are the French,Germans,Spanish with their variant of the Scorpene,and the Russians. My money as of now is on the U-boats.
The French subs are too expensive,tech compromised, and the Oz experience would put off many customers.The MESMA AIP system comes in inferior to the latest fuel-cell systems.SoKo and Japan may throw their hats into the ring but unlikely to be shortlisted as SoKo bots are derived from German U-boats and the Japanese subs have never been exported. The Russians might sneak through if they use the DRDO AIP system and co-develop an Indo-specific sub armed with BMos,.Nirbhay/LRCM,SMART,etc.,which the IN appears to want aboard. They have the max. knowledge of the doctrine and ambitions of the IN and providing us with Akula SSGNs gives them much leverage.

U-214s are being explored as replacements by Oz for the controversial French conv. Barracuda subs whose negotiations have seen the cost skyrocket astronomically. Oz is on the verge of dumping the French and the German U-boats are being negotiated with as option B.

The Phillippines are to acquire subs to counter the PLAN's aggression in the Indo-China Sea in the Phillippine's EEZ. SoKo built German U-boats appear to be in contest with French Scorpenes.

Indonesia is to acquire 12 subs to counter the PLAN,Indonesia has a massive EEZ to defend,amongst the world's 6th-largest.India has only the world's 18th largest EEZ! Guess the ranking list,given below. SoKo has its nose in front,but offers are coming in from Japan,Ruyssia and wait for it....Turkey who hope to use their Islamic "birther" connections to swing the deal.

EEZ Top 20.
Rank Country Exclusive Economic Zone Area ( km2)
1 France 11,691,000
2 United States 11,351,000
3 Australia 8,505,348
4 Russia 7,566,673
5 United Kingdom 6,805,586
6 Indonesia 6,159,032
7 Canada 5,599,077
8 Japan 4,479,388
9 New Zealand 4,083,744
10 Chile 3,681,989
11 Brazil 3,660,955
12 Kiribati 3,441,810
13 Mexico 3,269,386
14 Micronesia 2,996,419
15 Denmark 2,551,238
16 Papua New Guinea 2,402,288
17 Norway 2,385,178
18 India 2,305,143
19 Marshall Islands 1,990,530
20 Portugal 1,727,408

So now you know which nations India has to invigorate its foreign and security policy towards.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

A footnote to the Indonesian quest for 12 new subs.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Intern ... incursions
Xcpt.
Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto has indicated that the country will step up investment in military equipment in the wake of the sub accident. As for submarines, Indonesia is pursuing a joint production agreement with South Korea, while France, Russia and Turkey have offered to export the vessels. Japan is exploring the idea of selling submarines to Jakarta.

The KRI Nanggala-402 suddenly disappeared on April 21 while preparing for torpedo exercises off Bali. The craft was built in 1977 in Germany and acquired by Indonesia in 1981. The nation's military says the sub was likely hit by a giant undersea wave that knocked it out of control.

The incident fueled a sense of urgency in the country about the state of its submarine fleet. China's 'nine-dash' line intersects a portion of Indonesia's EEZ around the Natuna Islands. Chinese fishing boats operate there, and Beijing has also deployed its coast guard ships, which in February it authorized to use firepower. Jakarta is bracing for a possible increase in activity in the area.

If the number of submarines can be increased to the target level, they can conduct intensive surveillance in areas that are difficult for patrol ships to reach, said Khairul Fahmi of the Institute for Security and Strategic Studies, an Indonesian think tank, indicating this will reduce the presence of foreign ships around the Natunas.

Indonesia has been working with South Korea on submarines in recent years and is pursuing technical cooperation with Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering. Of the four subs currently in service, two were built in South Korea and one was produced at home employing technology from South Korea. The ill-fated submarine that sank was completely refurbished in South Korea in 2012.

When Indonesia imports defense kit, it asks for technology transfers to boost its own technical abilities and to secure jobs. South Korea has offered favorable terms along with its prices. But the Indonesian side has not been satisfied with the capabilities of these vessels, citing power supply problems connected to batteries, among other problems.

Submarines from Japan would be more state-of-the-art, being much quieter and offering more time of operation underwater. But the prices would be higher and the technology transfer conditions would be more sensitive.
dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by dinesha »

India clears decks for long-pending mega project to build six new-gen stealth submarines
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 228646.cms
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Gear up for the annual MoD brochure which will state the following, "Project 75I represents the latest in submarine Transfer of Technology and India is now capable of building her own boats." This is the same line they used on the Scorpene program. Also get ready for ribbon cutting ceremonies, marigold garlands and chai-biscoot sessions.

And like most other naval shipyard building projects in India, this too will be delayed for a long time. The article says it will take 10 years for the first vessel to arrive. That is a really good joke.

And then sometime in the 2040s - and with the six-build Project 75I program yet to see completion - the IN will launch a global RFI for a new line of submarines along with 100% Transfer of Technology. And the cycle will repeat itself.
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Vips »

Unless and until there is wholesale privatization in the defense sector this will continue ad infinitum.......
Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5128
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_Sharma »

TWITTER

@rathorekaran17:

USN has no diesel subs. Russian Navy has only one class Kilo and improved Kilo class. Approx 80 in service. IN with its small strength of 15 subs already has three class of diesel subs Kilo, Scorpene and HDW. And now we will go for the fourth class. Logistics, maint and trg ??

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 97324?s=19
maitya
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 621
Joined: 02 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by maitya »

dinesha wrote:India clears decks for long-pending mega project to build six new-gen stealth submarines
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 228646.cms
Quick question: Is the mandate that the AIP to be used for 75I will have to be DRDO's desi AIP or MDL/L&T can adopt whatever their chosen foreign partners AIP tech for the program?

To my simple mind this is increasingly looking like a strategic baksheesh spreading exercise of:
1) 75I - one of TKMS (Germany), Navantia (Spain) and Daewoo (South Korea)
2) SSN program - Russia (does it include supplier needing to provide the reactor tech as well)
3) Scorpene (2-3 addn follow-up with desi AIP)- Naval Group-DCNS (France)
4) Surface Fleet (aka AC) along with air-fleet - USA

Not bad I'd say ...
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Cain Marko »

Philip wrote:For heaven's sake IN, since new built subs will take aeons to arrive,please lease more Akulas from Ru and U-boats,whatever from the west. Take a second look at the Kilos on offer just to maintain about 6 to 8 combat worthy through this decade until the P-75I successors arrive, as right now they are the only subs that can carry 300km+ anti-ship and land attack missiles. We need two sub lines,the P-75I and a parallel line,one from the east and one from the west. A G-2-G for German U-boats would shorten delivery time,even our U-209s are of 3 decades vintage.
Getting a foreign sub would be justified if it was procured quickly. BUT that is very, very unlikely. In which case, it makes much more sense to get an Indian built variant.
Philip wrote:DAC has cleared the P-75I?The leading contenders are the French,Germans,Spanish with their variant of the Scorpene,and the Russians. My money as of now is on the U-boats.
Naah - no Uboats. Germans just don't have enough strategic weight for India. It will either be some advanced Kilo types of the Spanish-French SMX variant. BIG ocean going affair. Very possible with new AIP based on latest battery tech - possibly solid state batteries. Gamechanging stuff.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 05 Jun 2021 12:18, edited 1 time in total.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by jamwal »

On this criminal wastage of scant resources

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2021/06/nava ... e.html?m=1

Rear Admiral (Retd) Rahul Shrawat, who heads Naval Group India
Through extensive transfer of technologies during the construction of six Scorpene submarines, MDL has mastered the building of conventional submarines. This is of great satisfaction for Naval Group. MDL’s expertise should not be allowed to fade away, as has happened in the past. These skills must be preserved by building additional submarines in MDL.
Building a submarine is much more complex than most other defence platforms. To preserve MDL’s building expertise and qualified staff, more submarines need to be ordered quickly. However, the tendering, selection and contracting for Project 75-I is a huge task and requires lead time. In the meanwhile, MDL could build more Scorpenes, incorporating the DRDO’s AIP and other advanced features. This would preserve the expertise created at MDL, while also bringing orders to Indian firms, such as Bharat Electronics and Larsen & Toubro. However, it is the Indian Navy’s prerogative to decide how best to manage this complex issue.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Pratyush »

What else is new. We lost all experience gained after building the 209s. Not really surprising that post scorpean the story should be repeated.
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by chola »

Pratyush wrote:What else is new. We lost all experience gained after building the 209s. Not really surprising that post scorpean the story should be repeated.
I have given up hope of us ever behaving like a rational nation on this. We paid Germany for technology transfer for our first SSK. Then wipe the slate clean and paid France for tech transfer for our second. We will pay someone again for our third.

We had made a good choice in the Type 209 and then squander that experience. Look at Korea with the 209. They paid once and then established an industry. Isn't that how tech transfer is supposed to work? You pay for the knowledge and experience so you can make your own and not pay again.

Look at Turkey. They started with the 209, went through multiple tranches (209, 209T, 209T2) and are now building their own Piri Reis class AIP based on the Type 214. This should have been our path too. Commission scandal or not, we already paid and should have continued forward and should have bypassed the Scorpene (and its technology leak.)
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by mody »

Sadly the Scorpene project itself was executed as a strategic partnership (new fancy name for ToT). Yet it has not taught us how to build our own subs and incrementally improve the same.

The next set of subs should be slightly enlarged scorpenes with provision for VLS tubes for 8 Brahmos-NG or LRLACM missiles and DRDO AIP modules. Newer generation batteries and longer TT tubes to accomodate the Varunastra torpedoes. Some elements of the U-209 might be incorporated, if found to be superior.
If this is approved, then the French naval group should be asked to hand over complete ToT of the entire sub, included the sonar and the combat management suite and large electric motors, in lieu of the data leak of the subs.
LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by LakshmanPST »

Noob pooch...
Does the approved 24 Attack Subs Plan of IN also mention the Tonnage of the vessels...?
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by chola »

LakshmanPST wrote:Noob pooch...
Does the approved 24 Attack Subs Plan of IN also mention the Tonnage of the vessels...?
The breakdown of the 24 is rather vague. Six of the 24 will be SSNs and six will be the P75I. I'd imagine the SSNs will be 6K tons (under P-75A) while the P-75I had always envisioned a medium sized SSK from 1.8K to 3.8K tons (3.8K being a Daewoo model.)

Have no idea about the other 12. The only firm plans are those for P-75I and the SSNs that I can tell.
LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by LakshmanPST »

chola wrote: The breakdown of the 24 is rather vague. Six of the 24 will be SSNs and six will be the P75I. I'd imagine the SSNs will be 6K tons (under P-75A) while the P-75I had always envisioned a medium sized SSK from 1.8K to 3.8K tons (3.8K being a Daewoo model.)

Have no idea about the other 12. The only firm plans are those for P-75I and the SSNs that I can tell.
From what I read on internet, original plan was 6 boats under P75, 6 boats under P75I and 12 boats under P76...
The 12 SSK plan under P76 has now been changed to 6 SSKs + 6 SSNs... The SSNs are given the Project Name P75A...
-
So, current plan is as follow:-
6 SSKs under P75 are Kalvari class which have displacement of around 1800T...
6 SSKs under P75I will have displacement around 3000-4000T...
6 SSNs under P75A will have a displacement of around 6000T...
As of now, there is no information about remaining 6 SSKs under Project P76...
----
If IN does not have any specific requirements about the capacity of the submarines and are OK with current displacement of Kalvari class boats, it makes most sense to scrap P76 and go for 9+9 boats or 12+6 boats of P75 & P75I respectively (instead of current 6+6)...
-
If they are looking for heavier SSKs with more firepower than Kalvari class boats, then it will definitely be a reason for not ordering more Scorpenes... I personally believe this is the reason for not ordering more Scorpenes rather than data leak...
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by chola »

LakshmanPST wrote:
chola wrote: The breakdown of the 24 is rather vague. Six of the 24 will be SSNs and six will be the P75I. I'd imagine the SSNs will be 6K tons (under P-75A) while the P-75I had always envisioned a medium sized SSK from 1.8K to 3.8K tons (3.8K being a Daewoo model.)

Have no idea about the other 12. The only firm plans are those for P-75I and the SSNs that I can tell.
From what I read on internet, original plan was 6 boats under P75, 6 boats under P75I and 12 boats under P76...
The 12 SSK plan under P76 has now been changed to 6 SSKs + 6 SSNs... The SSNs are given the Project Name P75A...
-
So, current plan is as follow:-
6 SSKs under P75 are Kalvari class which have displacement of around 1800T...
6 SSKs under P75I will have displacement around 3000-4000T...
6 SSNs under P75A will have a displacement of around 6000T...
As of now, there is no information about remaining 6 SSKs under Project P76...
----
If IN does not have any specific requirements about the capacity of the submarines and are OK with current displacement of Kalvari class boats, it makes most sense to scrap P76 and go for 9+9 boats or 12+6 boats of P75 & P75I respectively (instead of current 6+6)...
-
If they are looking for heavier SSKs with more firepower than Kalvari class boats, then it will definitely be a reason for not ordering more Scorpenes... I personally believe this is the reason for not ordering more Scorpenes rather than data leak...
I hope they are not re-packaging the current 6 Project 75 submarines as part of the 24 new subs. I hope it would be a new follow-on order of 6. But if that were so, Rear Adm. would not be warning of losing the skills involved in the Scorpene program. The leak might have impacted getting Scorpenes.

If 6 of these are the just the original Kalvari orders then we are really getting just 18 new orders. The SSNs and the P-75I would make 12. That leaves 6 for more interesting speculations. A bigger more capable SSK?

If the P-75I opts for the KSS-III then we could be getting a very big conventional sub at 3.8K tons along with VLS. That would fulfill the VLS dream. If the mystery 6 goes for something even bigger then it would have to be something like the Soryu at over 4.2K tons. I'd imagine phoren SSKs at these sizes would approach the costs of our SSNs. At that point, the mystery 6 might as well be the second tranche of our SSNs.
LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by LakshmanPST »

If I'm not wrong, 24 Subs approval is not for new boats... It is the sanctioned strength of Attack Submarines much like the 42 squadron number of Air Force...
The original sanctioned strength was 24 SSKs which they're revising to 18 SSKs+6 SSNs...
The original 'plan' I shared previously was procurement road map prepared 20 years back, which was 12 foreign designs under P75 and 12 local designs under P76... So, question of Scorpenes being repackaged in the 24 New Subs does not arise...
-
Anyways, the original P76 project envisaged 12 locally designed & built SSKs... Now we have started work on 6 SSNs under P75A... For the remaining 6 SSKs, there is no sanctioned plan as of now... Whether they will go for a new desi design or, order more of P75 or P75I, or go for another new global design need to be seen...
-
Now and then I just wonder, when we have designed our own SSBNs how difficult would it be to design our own SSKs...? I'm not sure if SSKs are more complicated to design than SSNs and whether we have design expertise for the same...
Unless that is the case, we should have started working on 12 SSKs for P76 long back, later scrapped the 6 SSKs under P75I and gone for 6 SSNs under P75A...
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Philip »

We are going to fall into the same whirlpool that has plagued the Oz sub plan by trying to make a conv. boat almost equiv. to an SSN/SSGN. It is simply not possible for the same, Oz now want to scrap the French conv. Barracudas and go in for U-214s.I've said many a time,"horses for courses".What are our threats in the IOR? Pak and the PLAN. The US is no longer perceived as a threat and only the most paranoid person can expect it to happen for the next half-century at least. A new 3000+t SSG will also cost much more than a 2000+t U-boat at $500M or even a 3000t Kilo just around $350M today. The Ru KIlos which carry the 2500km Kalibir,can carry only 4 such missiles fired from its tubes. However,an Akula type SSGN can carry upto 40 weapons of avaying types.

We do not need land attack cruise missiles to hit Pak which geographically has a narrow "waist". Our mobile tactical missile batteries on land can easily deal with most targets.BMos range is being upped first to 450Km,then 800km. We also have Prithvi, Shaurya,Prahar,etc.The primary threat to the IN is from PN and PLAN subs,which will amount to around 2 doz. (PN 12,PLAN 12 from Gwadar.Djibouti and Sri Lanka ) operating on a permanent basis in the future. Just 24 IN subs is grossly insufficient. Our SSBN number may amount to 6-8,which will need some SSNs acting as their protectors. What does that leave us with? 6 Scorpenes,6 P-75Is and the remnants of the upgraded Kilos/U-boats. The latter will all have been pensioned off by 2030 and we will have just 12 newish conv. subs to the 24 of the enemy combine! Therefore.our sub fleet must have larger numbers and smaller U-boats with AIP are ideal for the IOR littoral to combat both PN and PLAN subs,cheaper to acquire and build faster too. Ideally we should also have another Ru conv. line simultaneously being built too to replace the Kilos. These boats could be larger and carry VLS BMos/BMos NG/LRCMs,etc. Whatever the mix,at least 18-24 conv. boats must be acquired along with 12 SSBNs/SSNs. In the interim,the lease of a few more Akula SSGNs ,at least 3,would be ideal for the IN,able to hit the enemy anywhere in the IOR and the ICS/Pacific waters too.
vonkabra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 75
Joined: 09 Oct 2003 11:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by vonkabra »

Rakesh wrote:Gear up for the annual MoD brochure which will state the following, "Project 75I represents the latest in submarine Transfer of Technology and India is now capable of building her own boats." This is the same line they used on the Scorpene program. Also get ready for ribbon cutting ceremonies, marigold garlands and chai-biscoot sessions.
My personal thought is that a country like South Korea gives the building contract to private ship yards (which are part of larger industrial conglomerates which have long since mastered reverse engineering) who understand the real meaning of ToT (through mandatory IP transfer) so that they can start building their own variants - especially since exports are a prime consideration for them. For a public sector shipyard, ToT becomes another name for license manufacture since they don't have to worry about exports and can rely on the same cycle to play out 20 years down the line.
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10388
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Yagnasri »

One more rubbish procurement policy. By all accounts an AIP equipped Kalavari class can be produced now without waiting for years and years for all the rubbish to go on. We have a talented poll of workers and Yard almost begging for orders to keep the production line working and the workers not lose their skill sets. Yet here we go again.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

For those who think the Scorpenes can be just built off the line in MD., keep in mind it's only the hull and fabrication and a few stuffs that is indigenous, all the rest are imported., almost like buying new subs (only more expensive!)., compare to chinks who have an entire supplier base to keep the lines chugging along., has anyone done a comparison on the "indigenous" content of a scorpene ?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

That is the precisely the point kit!!!! None of this is actually Transfer of Technology. There has NEVER been ToT to India. Why should it?

And Project 75I will be the exact same thing. The only advantage in building additional Scorpenes is that the line is still open and additional boats will arrive much quicker than Project 75I, which as per the Navy's own admission will take 10 years for the first vessel to arrive.
SRajesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2061
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

Rakeshji
A noob pooch
What is the indigenous content of the Arihant?? apart from Hull and N core!!!
If more than 50 or 80% then can we not use that Tech for conventional subs???
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by chola »

Rakesh wrote:That is the precisely the point kit!!!! None of this is actually Transfer of Technology. There has NEVER been ToT to India. Why should it?

And Project 75I will be the exact same thing. The only advantage in building additional Scorpenes is that the line is still open and additional boats will arrive much quicker than Project 75I, which as per the Navy's own admission will take 10 years for the first vessel to arrive.
NEVER been a transfer of technology? What about Type 209? Why would we sign something that is less than what the Koreans and Turks had signed for the same boat? Just because we never took advantage of the ToT after the initial contract was completed doesn't mean it was never bought and transfered. Technical mastery of the 209 allowed for the 214 from HDW during the Korean and Turkish development path.

Turkey built 1 of 4 Ay class (Type 209) then 4 of 4 Preveze (Type 209T) and then 4 of 4 Gur (Type 209T2.) Now building 6 of 6 Reis (AIP, based on Type 214.)

Korea built 3 of 4 Chang Bogo (Type 209) then moved onto
6 of 6 Son Won II (AIP, based on Type 214.) They were projects KSS-1 and KSS-2.

Current project KSS-3 is based on Type 209/214 but enlarged by the Koreans to 3.8K tons AND has a VLS -- Ahn Chango, which Daewoo had offered for P-75I. Imagine us buying this and paying for the Type 209 roots again.

Unless we somehow managed to finagle a worse contract than the Koreans and Turks, we should be producing AIP subs now. At the very least. Maybe like the Koreans, we might even be producing a super one with a vertical launch system if we made the same choices as other nations.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Is that why the IN is in negotiations with HDW right now to upgrade two or more of these boats? If we received the ToT, we should be able to upgrade them ourselves no? What you are referring to is Transfer of Production and not TOT.

If we indeed got the ToT, then why the need for Scorpene and Project 75I?

We perhaps got a worse contract than other HDW 209 customers. That is our fault. Not HDW's. And we are repeating the same mistake again with Project 75I, when reportedly we got TOT from the Scorpene deal. Which we did not.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Rsatchi wrote:Rakeshji
A noob pooch
What is the indigenous content of the Arihant?? apart from Hull and N core!!!
If more than 50 or 80% then can we not use that Tech for conventional subs???
No ji please :)

Good question and I do not know. That is a question for perhaps chetak or John to answer.

I would venture a guess and state that it is a different beast, but I could be way off the mark.
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by chola »

Rakesh wrote:Is that why the IN is in negotiations with HDW right now to upgrade two or more of these boats? If we received the ToT, we should be able to upgrade them ourselves no? What you are referring to is Transfer of Production and not TOT.

If we indeed got the ToT, then why the need for Scorpene and Project 75I?

We perhaps got a worse contract than other HDW 209 customers. That is our fault. Not HDW's. And we are repeating the same mistake again with Project 75I, when reportedly we got TOT from the Scorpene deal. Which we did not.
Maybe you are right on this. Which again has us acting differently than other nations who have the exact same aspirations for self-sufficiency that we do.

Yeah, I fear with you that we will be doing the same thing again the P-75I. Once and done payment for production onlee. Any Rakshak who remembers any of this would tear his hair out.

Better to have just short term memory and be happy with whatever they get. They are always good vessels anyways. We wouldn't complain about the Type 209s and Scorpenes from these programs if we ignore the history :)
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

The only time I can remember TOT is in the Bofors deal. The irony is that we sat on that TOT for 3+ decades and held contest after contest to acquire new artillery guns which amounted to nothing. Finally Dhanush was brought out by OFB, after the TOT documents were dusted and OFB developed an even better gun than the FH-77B gun. Which is what TOT is designed to do i.e. improve upon the baseline. Anyway, I do not want to derail this thread with artillery talk, so feel free to reply to my post in the artillery thread and not in here.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

chola wrote:Maybe you are right on this. Which again has us acting differently than other nations who have the exact same aspirations for self-sufficiency that we do.

Yeah, I fear with you that we will be doing the same thing again the P-75I. Once and done payment for production onlee. Any Rakshak who remembers any of this would tear his hair out.

Better to have just short term memory and be happy with whatever they get. They are always good vessels anyways. We wouldn't complain about the Type 209s and Scorpenes from these programs if we ignore the history :)
There is still time. Project 75I is still in the infancy stages. Cancel the contest. Churn out additional Scorpenes with DRDO AIP + updated USHUS sonar and F21 torpedoes from France. And in due time, replace with F-21 with the submarine variant of the Varunastra. But I realise, that is too much to ask.
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5136
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by chola »

Rakesh wrote:The only time I can remember TOT is in the Bofors deal. The irony is that we sat on that TOT for 3+ decades
You just touched upon my fear for the Type 209 and the Scorpene deals. That we DID buy ToT and then sat on them for whatever reason. Just a nagging feeling that this is exactly the kind of stuff that can happen amongst babus.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

May i just put it this way., there is no incentive for a PSU to fully implement "indigenisation" even if offered on a platter., i am tempted to think the private sector would have done a much better job. Period.
The South Koreans did a better job because the pvt sector is involved., same for Israel, Turkey, Japan, UK....This is not just a problem of India alone.
The exceptions are those at national security level and strategic weapons for which expenses do not matter.
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:Maybe you are right on this. Which again has us acting differently than other nations who have the exact same aspirations for self-sufficiency that we do.

Yeah, I fear with you that we will be doing the same thing again the P-75I. Once and done payment for production onlee. Any Rakshak who remembers any of this would tear his hair out.

Better to have just short term memory and be happy with whatever they get. They are always good vessels anyways. We wouldn't complain about the Type 209s and Scorpenes from these programs if we ignore the history :)
There is still time. Project 75I is still in the infancy stages. Cancel the contest. Churn out additional Scorpenes with DRDO AIP + updated USHUS sonar and F21 torpedoes from France. And in due time, replace with F-21 with the submarine variant of the Varunastra. But I realise, that is too much to ask.
I would say the 75i has its merits., keep in mind its the last tech import for submarines with the aim to build on this capability.
Post Reply