Project 75I - It Begins

srin · Post by **srin** » 02 Sep 2020 17:56

^^^ The U-209s and U-214s are used by Turkish Navy. That's as compromised as it can get.

The solution to Scorpene data being compromised is more indigenization and local improvements. Going to a different vendor is only going to solve the problem till they sell it to your adversary or your enemy's close buddy.

My solution is to order more Scorpenes with our systems there, and gradually going to our very own SSK line.

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 02 Sep 2020 19:02

^ There are a few differences, it's not that compromised.

IN is on top of this , knowing first hand the criticality of the submarine game.

It's a deep and silent game.

( Useful information with me is mainly from a book describing German Submarine design in 1904. That's 116 years ago. I admit knowing nothing about submarines, more like an amateur hobbyist.)

- The IN version is a one -off with 1500 tons, so it's not the Turk version. Wake, displacement, radiated noise are obviously different. Engine power is different.

- The engines were changed during the mid life upgrades, not the same 1986 ones, so factors like engine noise, power and NVH are now again different. There have been DRDO papers/ updates on "Design of engine rafts". I don't know wat IN uses right now.

- Propellers are not what was bolted on in 1986. I have come across both 6 and 7 bladed versions for the Type 209. If anyone has seen a proper propeller picture after 2010-2011, pls share. ( I haven't even seen a picture of the wake while surfaced. )
The Pakistani video in 2015-16 supposedly involving our Type 209 was laughed off by the IN. I don't know what IN uses right now.

- Sonars are different, we apparently upgraded to a modernised French Sonar called the Eldone in 2003-6. I don't know what's running in 2020.

- Did you know that our Type 209s have a towed array sonar? HDW doesn't offer this , AFAIK. It's an add on.
I used to think only Akulas in IN had towed array sonars.

- Fire control system and Operators console.
Is it German ? No
Is it DRDO? No.

It's American, a company called SIGMA, the Regan Administration allowed India to be the only non US client to buy this in the 1980s. If we replaced it, I don't know.

The Indian built ones can fire Harpoons , the first 2 built in Germany cannot (I'm trying to get to the bottom of this, I speculate that the Harpoon needs an equalising valve when flooding the Torpedo tube, maintaining outer ocean pressure and inner tube pressure almost equally. The missile and its launch container then ejects out of the submarine, rises to the surface and fires. Maybe the hydraulic systems in the earlier German built ones don't have this capability, and it cannot be modified easily. Gurus correct me if I'm wrong.)

Long in the tooth, yes. But Maybe not such an easy fish to catch!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Sep 2020 23:22

Very true. Special bulkheads too, and a new variant ,with desi input, was on offer. Similar with our Ru subs.Right from Foxtrot days,where we were given advanced versions,we've recd. better variants than those sold to other Ru allies/ friends ,even China with its Kilo 636s.

The German AIP system is superior to the Scorpene MESMA system.Our Scorpenes,at exorbitant cost,do not even have that system which Paki Agosta 90Bs have had for aeons. Their PRC Yuans will have the Swedish Stirling engine AIP system.
Interestingly,Malachite,not Rubin have revealed their new conv. AIP boat the P-750B, with a v.interesting AIP system. The boat is smaller than a blue-water sub meant for coastal/ brown water ops ,but has interestig features incl.a 12 tube VLS module for fish and missiles.

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Sep 2020 23:12

The design that I have some suggested is a U209-Scorpene hybrid or a stretched modified version of the U214, with our own design inputs, based the Scorpene and Arihant projects.
This itself means it won't be the same as any sub currently in existence.

The point about the Scorpene design being compromised, was in response to a question by Fanne, as to why choose Germans as consultants or a modified U214 design, instead of going with the French.

In fact, while we pursue the P75I project, I would certainly wish that we opt to produce 2 more Scorpene subs, alo g with purchase of 3 new built Kilo 636.3 subs from Russia.

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Sep 2020 23:22

I am basically advocating that we build our own basic design or design customised for us, for which we own the IP and are involved with all aspects of the design.
We also arm it with our own weapons, i.e. Brahmos- NG, Nirbhay/LRCM and Varunastra torpedo.
The main Sonar maybe ours, if the USHUS is found to be comparable to the French and German ones, that we currently have on the Scorpene and U209, or opt for the best that we can get from any foreign source. The fact that have replaced the Russian Sonar on the EKM subs with the USHUS, means that it should be fairly good in our waters.
The main engine, propeller, combat management systems, AIP, towed array Sonar etc. Can all be indigenous or whatever best that we can get from any foreign source.
It kind of like the LCA program, where the engine, the radar and also most of the air to air weapons are foreign to begin with, but the basic design is ours. Progressively we are coming up with indigenous systems to replace all the critical foreign sourced ones.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 10 Sep 2020 01:20

Lads,

Project-75I RFP is coming out soon. Just hope that a builders actually make a submission and a selection is made.

There is a good chance of heart attacks the moment the first envelopes are pulled out and quotations read out loud in the committee.... this is likely to be 2 years+ from now.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Oct 2020 03:50

Spanish Company Navantia displays S-80 its latest generation of submarine
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... arine.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Oct 2020 03:55

Arrival of brochuritis

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 78112?s=20 ---> Neat and slick!!! Naval Group, builders of the Scorpene submarine, reveals the SMX 31E, its 2020 concept ship. Stealthier thanks to her biomimetic covering, the ship also benefits from an "unmatched electrical energy storage capacity and a new propulsion concept".

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 29 Oct 2020 05:29

Any big ticket/value items should be bought only from the Big 4 (US, Russia, France and UK). These veto wielding powers are the country India should be aligning with. Buying multi billion $ hardware from Sweden or Spain or any other country simply does not make Strategic sense.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2020 05:22

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 69056?s=20 ---> So the Indian Navy just launched a RFI to develop a 500KWh (to be scaled upto 5MW) Li-ion batteries for 6 subs. Why is this important, cuz u might've heard about AIPs in SSKs, and know Navy is looking to add them to Kalvari Class later, Li-ion batteries eliminates the need for a AIP.

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 03840?s=20 ---> The only other submarine that has sought to use Li-ion batteries, instead of AIP, is Japan's Soryu Class.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2020 05:23

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/132 ... 89377?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy wants private Indian industry to quickly develop a Lithium Ion battery system to replace the lead-acid battery systems on its current conventional submarine fleet.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2020 05:26

The entire RFI document issued by the Indian Navy on the Lithium Ion batteries...

https://indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default ... download=1

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2020 05:31

X-Post from the Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion Thread....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 49697?s=20 ---> The severe issues that plague the MESMA AIP system (onboard Pak Agosta 90B subs); no wonder Indian Navy did not want MESMA AIP onboard it's own Scorpenes:

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 30 Oct 2020 06:23

Rakesh wrote:Arrival of brochuritis

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 78112?s=20 ---> Neat and slick!!! Naval Group, builders of the Scorpene submarine, reveals the SMX 31E, its 2020 concept ship. Stealthier thanks to her biomimetic covering, the ship also benefits from an "unmatched electrical energy storage capacity and a new propulsion concept".

Looks like a big torpedo

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 30 Oct 2020 06:26

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/132 ... 89377?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy wants private Indian industry to quickly develop a Lithium Ion battery system to replace the lead-acid battery systems on its current conventional submarine fleet.

Interesting. Nice thing with this approach is it scales. 1-1 replacement of lead-acid batteries would result in a smaller and lighter pack or more juice. Add more battery packs, you spend more time underwater. So, the concept of AIP is replaced with Li battery packs?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 30 Oct 2020 08:06

Li-Ion batteries are easily 3-4 times more energy dense than lead acid in terms of volume and weight. But the fire hazard is catastrophic.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Oct 2020 08:31

https://kurt.energy/press-release-new-p ... 230-wh-kg/

In future Carbon based supercapacitor battery.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 30 Oct 2020 08:38

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 69056?s=20 ---> So the Indian Navy just launched a RFI to develop a 500KWh (to be scaled upto 5MW) Li-ion batteries for 6 subs. Why is this important, cuz u might've heard about AIPs in SSKs, and know Navy is looking to add them to Kalvari Class later, Li-ion batteries eliminates the need for a AIP.

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 03840?s=20 ---> The only other submarine that has sought to use Li-ion batteries, instead of AIP, is Japan's Soryu Class.

Wow!!!Jingo kush hua...

. Dream come true.

My post below on lithium ion posted on 11 April 2020 in Indian Navy thread.

Last of the two of the Soryus also have this.
It is not late for us to go along this path. The late Sindhurakshak hull was a perfect oppertunity to experiment this technology. A static test bed in which all Lead acid battery are replaced with lithium ion ones. We could have had the data for each and every section's power consumption.
Next available oppurtunity is as and when the second hand kilos arrive for retrofitment of desi systems. Companies like Ather, TATA motors and many others will only be happy to share their expertise in lithium ion power electronics. This is a very low hanging fruit with enormous benefits in long term. We can even commercialize the technology as retrofit to existing kilos and scorpenes of other countries.

Once this matures all of our subs including kilos and 209 will have longer endurance times by only replacing batteries. Unlike scorpene which may be cut open to put the AIP plug, not sure about former two to be equipped with AIP. This will also have an impact on snorkelling time as Lithium can be charged faster than lead acid. Also no issue of hydrogen build up like it happens during charging of lead acid.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Oct 2020 08:48

DRDO AIP will be outdated when Kalvari class will come up for midlife refit.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Oct 2020 10:18

Fight of Borchurities

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Oct 2020 11:04

sankum wrote:DRDO AIP will be outdated when Kalvari class will come up for midlife refit.

Nice rant, please tell us why and why it does not form a good domestic foundation to develop the next generation AIP's.

A- I dont think it is outdated - you correct me with proper Gyan

B- Prithvi was a liquid Fueled BM which kick started our Indian missile programs, babies dont run from the first day and world class products dont come with production ecosystems.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Oct 2020 13:39

The world is moving towards Li ion tech and latest IN RFP is the proof.
It is better if we incorporate the latest tech. IN has given two year time period in the RFP to develop the tech.
In the RFP 6 nos Submarine requirement is there which will of course be the Kalvari class. The Kilos and HDW will be long on tooth and start retiring.
Just change the battery from lead acid to Li ion. You get 5 times submerged endurance and range with no need for AIP.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 30 Oct 2020 15:05

^^^
Kilos being long in tooth is precisely why they should be used as a test bed for testing new designs. It is the least risky option as we have already squeezed enough juice out of them.
The RFI does mention 6 nos but also refer page 5 , point 6 -- Configuration of Cells inside modules. It clearly mentions the configuration of Li-ion cells should meet voltage requirement of existing PGD network of EKM class of submarine. So IN is considering Kilos to be Li-ion power driven.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Oct 2020 15:13

Thanks, then latter it can go on Kalvari class. We will have two competing system. Best will win.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Oct 2020 23:31

arvin wrote: My post below on lithium ion posted on 11 April 2020 in Indian Navy thread.

Last of the two of the Soryus also have this. It is not late for us to go along this path. The late Sindhurakshak hull was a perfect oppertunity to experiment this technology. A static test bed in which all Lead acid battery are replaced with lithium ion ones. We could have had the data for each and every section's power consumption. Next available opportunity is as and when the second hand kilos arrive for retrofitment of desi systems. Companies like Ather, TATA motors and many others will only be happy to share their expertise in lithium ion power electronics. This is a very low hanging fruit with enormous benefits in long term. We can even commercialize the technology as retrofit to existing kilos and scorpenes of other countries.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 05184?s=20 ---> IN wants Li-Ion batteries to replace the Lead-Acid batteries in use by its SSK fleet. BHEL had taken #ISRO's Li-Ion tech & scaled it up. Although the Lithium metal would probably need to be imported, the tech already exists. BHEL is also working on Advanced Lead-Carbon batteries.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 31 Oct 2020 00:27

Rakesh wrote:
arvin wrote: My post below on lithium ion posted on 11 April 2020 in Indian Navy thread.

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 05184?s=20 ---> IN wants Li-Ion batteries to replace the Lead-Acid batteries in use by its SSK fleet. BHEL had taken #ISRO's Li-Ion tech & scaled it up. Although the Lithium metal would probably need to be imported, the tech already exists. BHEL is also working on Advanced Lead-Carbon batteries.

Are they going to use this for micro grids?

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 31 Oct 2020 01:56

How is it that India ended up with no domestic reserves for the mass-market fuel again - crude then and now lithium - luck of the draw i guess

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 31 Oct 2020 09:31

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/7 ... submarines
Japan Goes Back To The Future With Lithium-Ion Battery Powered Submarines
Tyler Rogoway

The main downside to lithium-ion batteries is very well publicized: they are known to “runaway” and combust—exactly what you don’t want on a submarine. When they do so they produce very high heat, give off toxic fumes and expel conductive dust. They are also hard to extinguish using traditional means. But because weight is not as much of an issue on a large sea-going vessel, new methods of abatement can be put in place to lower the risk of a fire and its potentially catastrophic results.

Suppliers are working with Japan’s Maritime Self-Defense Force to overcome these concerns by building larger lithium-ion cell matrices with reinforced boundaries and enhanced chemistry that is less susceptible to these types of events. Extensive short-circuit, saltwater intrusion, drop and impact testing has also been done to certify the batteries for such critical use. Also, a specialized fire extinguishing system will be installed aboard advanced Soryu boats to neutralize a fire quickly and automatically in its battery compartments should one occur.

Down the road, the success of Japan’s lithium-ion battery powered subs could also mean a large cut in price for their AIP-like capabilities. Not just that, but other configurations, where existing AIP technologies are paired with lithium-ion batteries could also emerge, offering the best of both worlds for some users. The pairing of lithium-ion batteries and fuel cells for instance could result in highly capable and versatile submarines that feature extreme endurance, very quiet operation, fast acceleration and high dash speeds.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Oct 2020 10:56

V_Raman wrote:How is it that India ended up with no domestic reserves for the mass-market fuel again - crude then and now lithium - luck of the draw i guess

You make your own luck. China didn't have rare-earth reserves either, but under Deng, they identified this as a future-critical-need and went about aggressively cornering the market for it by investing in mines abroad etc.

With a national will & strategic purpose, anything is possible

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 02 Nov 2020 18:04

Why is Indian Navy eyeing lithium-ion batteries for its submarines?
The Indian Navy has specified a 20-month deadline for the lithium-ion battery project
October 30, 2020
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/ ... rines.html

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Nov 2020 19:57

jaysimha wrote:Why is Indian Navy eyeing lithium-ion batteries for its submarines?

As a user of lithium (LiFePo4) batteries having transitioned to them after years of lead-acid usage, granted for a non-mill grade system application, the change is so dramatic that it continues to wow you on A) how well these batteries cycle, and B ) How well they accept charge. The most immediate wow factor comes in the weight saving but the chemistry just lends itself to more efficient power delivery and replenishment as long as one has a capable BMS and controls ambient temperature around the system. One can only imagine what something like that can deliver in a military technology application which is likely a few generations more advanced than what is commercially sold.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2020 04:09

My comment on western conv. boats was that they,Europeans, cannot provide us with a sub that carries the range of sub-launched weaponry like Ru subs. We will never get Tomahawks accompanying a U-boat,etc.Only sub- Harpoons or Exocet SM.

None even have a Klub equiv. with its terminal M 3.5 warhead. All our Kilos are being upgraded to carry Klub variants and technically can also carry Kalibir if Nirbhay's development gets further problematic.

Why the IN has not got an old Kilo either from its stock or from Russia for a Kilo modified with a BMos plug beats me. The missile has been ready for years. In the time since the sub-launched version was perfected, we could've had at least one or two boats modified. I fear that the IN's "magnificent obsession" with large carriers has blinkered its vision and left the sub fleet seriously in decline in comparison with the relentless speed with which the PLAN has been churning out subs like sausages.

Coming to the QUAD and Germany's wanting to send its crews aboard OZ warships, it's far better for NATO to stay in tune with its appellation, " North Atlantic". It got bogged down in the Balkans, bombed everything but the Serbs, retreated with its tail between its legs in Afg. and vamoosed from the ME licking its wounds!

Nations instead like Vietnam, Indonesia, the Phillippines which have had their territory ursurped by the PRC need to be roped into the Quad, SoKo too. Perhaps a "QUAD " within the "QUAD" would do well to add to the PRC's acute discomfort.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Nov 2020 04:25

brar_w wrote:
jaysimha wrote:Why is Indian Navy eyeing lithium-ion batteries for its submarines?
As a user of lithium (LiFePo4) batteries having transitioned to them after years of lead-acid usage, granted for a non-mill grade system application, the change is so dramatic that it continues to wow you on A) how well these batteries cycle, and B ) How well they accept charge. The most immediate wow factor comes in the weight saving but the chemistry just lends itself to more efficient power delivery and replenishment as long as one has a capable BMS and controls ambient temperature around the system. One can only imagine what something like that can deliver in a military technology application which is likely a few generations more advanced than what is commercially sold.

Maybe if they wait another 10 years (which they probably will in any case - thanks to the slow pace at which movement occurs in MOD), they may have solid state batteries to consider as well!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Nov 2020 04:41

^ Yup solid-state is the holy grail. I'm actually watching the unmanned underwater and surface systems around the world very closely to see if any one of these investments pumps government money into solving for that problem. I suspect though someone in the private sector will solve it first.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Nov 2020 05:31

Philip wrote: Why the IN has not got an old Kilo either from its stock or from Russia for a Kilo modified with a BMos plug beats me. The missile has been ready for years.

Because a Kilo (or any other sub) with a VLS plug for Brahmos only exists in your own mind. The IN doesn't seem to keen on imaginary submarines.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Nov 2020 13:52

Is a Brahmos capable VLS essential to Project-75I? For land attack there torpedo tube launched options as well - such as Exocet and Klub - both of which are in our inventory.

VLS is absolutely essential for our SSBNs obviously. Why must we complicate matters in the SSK project?

Project-75I could simply a new order of Scorpene-Mod with AIP and further indigenisation.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 03 Nov 2020 14:01

brar_w wrote:^ Yup solid-state is the holy grail. I'm actually watching the unmanned underwater and surface systems around the world very closely to see if any one of these investments pumps government money into solving for that problem. I suspect though someone in the private sector will solve it first.

Brar it could also be that a commercial application might crack the issue of scaling and will then flow into mil applications. There are several projects underway in automotive applications for this along with improved chemical composition for li-ion. This is ofcourse only based on my limited exposure.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Nov 2020 18:59

Commercial application is great at scaling or taking risks with R&D. But volume production is less relevant for military application where quantity requirements are relatively small and pockets relatively (compared to commercial use) deeper which creates a lower barrier to entry for tech given the lack of cost sensitivity relative to commercial.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Nov 2020 22:45

Aditya G wrote:Is a Brahmos capable VLS essential to Project-75I? For land attack there torpedo tube launched options as well - such as Exocet and Klub - both of which are in our inventory.

VLS is absolutely essential for our SSBNs obviously. Why must we complicate matters in the SSK project?

Project-75I could simply a new order of Scorpene-Mod with AIP and further indigenisation.

I have argued for this exact same thing several times on the P75 thread. But the VLS requirement came from the IN. I am not sure if they have dropped it now. It would have helped if the Brahmos-M would have been available by now but unfortunately that is not the case. That would have removed the need for the VLS entirely without losing capability.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Nov 2020 22:50

AFAIK, requirement has still not been dropped.