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Project 75I- It Begins

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Singha
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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2017 12:42

shiv wrote:There is already a DRDO version of AIP but I am not sure if anyone uses Li-ion on subs (genuine ignorance here) - I thought it was always lead acid


Li ion has had its teething troubles on the 787 batteries which are japan made. but if the japanese believe they are safe for sub use they are well tested, unlike cheen or the old ussr, they are unlikely to rush unsafe things into service for political posturing.

they usually follow protocols and take the time to do a proper job

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2017 16:51

DCNS have a handicap to start with.The massive Scorpene leak,which has put paid to any more such boats for the IN. Secondly,the design according to the IN tx to the aforementioned ,plus delays is getting out of date.Thirdly,OZ is supposed to get the most advanced non-nuclear subs from DCNS with tech that "will never be given to India". Fourthly,the price of Scorpenes was enormous,esp. when compared with Ru equivalents. Finally,the DCNS scandal over the Paki sub deal may also play some part in the final decision.the GOI would be most careful to prevent any AW type controversy to emerge later on.

From the interview however,Pip and the R co. have a strong chance to win the LPD contract if the Mistral is chosen over the larger and more expensive Juan Carlos design.The IN may plump for a smaller LPD design so that it can leverage the MOD/GOI for a larger carrier.If Pip wins the LPD contract,then L&T would be favourites to win the sub contract.In any case they have the most experience of any yard other than MDL and HSL.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 727176.ece
‘We are looking at the next order for submarines from the Indian Navy’
NAYANIMA BASU

BERNARD BUISSON, DCNS India Managing Director
French shipbuilder DCNS India MD speaks on the growing opportunities in the Defence space

DCNS India Managing Director Bernard Buisson said the French shipbuilder is now looking at the next order from the Indian Navy to build at least three more submarines in India. In an interview with BusinessLine, he said the company is on track to deliver the remaining five Scorpene submarines even as the first one —INS Kalvari — is ready to be inducted into the Navy’s submarine fleet next month. Excerpts:

The first Scorpene-class submarine, INS Kalvari, is finally going to be inducted in Navy’s fleet next month. What has been your experience?

Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) built the submarines with DCNS as a technology partner. The program has been a major success given the extreme complexities and technical challenges of building a submarine.

The inevitable teething problems and other difficulties which MDL had to face, as there was a gap of several years since it had first produced submarines, were tackled successfully. Further, challenges of sourcing and inducting complex material were also achieved efficiently.

When will INS Khanderi, the second submarine, be delivered?

The sea trials have started last week. But now the tests will slow down because of the monsoon. But our target is to have this delivered by the year-end.

But, these submarines are defenceless as the contract to procure the Black Shark torpedoes was cancelled and Navy is now looking at German SeaHake …

We have successfully test fired a torpedo from the Navy’s current inventory. If the Navy has a requirement for additional torpedoes, DCNS will be offering the new generation French F21 torpedo. But DCNS is also fully prepared to help in integrating any other heavy weight torpedo if the Navy so chooses.

When do you plan to deliver the remaining four submarines?

Those will come at an interval of eight to nine months. The third one will be launched very soon. The remaining ones are all under different stages of construction.

What about the maintenance of these submarines?

We are in discussion with the Navy for maintenance through technical assistance and provision of additional tools and infrastructure specific to this modern submarine.

So what next now on the P75 programme?

We are now looking forward to the next order after P75 from the Navy for three or more submarines. Those will be the upgraded version of Scorpene submarine, which is more evolved and has enhanced features.

DNCS faced a massive data leak last year that almost jeopardised the Scorpene programme. How will you ensure this will not happen again?

The information that got leaked is not sensitive.

The final performance data of the Kalvari, which is the actual data, is securely maintained by the Navy. Even we do not possess it. The leak is now being looked at the highest levels of both governments of India and France. In addition, we are now re-enforcing our existing cyber security measures to put in place best in class data and more advanced security at base and on naval platforms.

P75(I) is going to the first project under the Strategic Partnership policy …

The government wants two lines of submarines. The second line is expected to be with a private shipyard.

Now under the SP, we have understood that within the submarine segment two partners will be selected, L&T and Reliance, because today only these two companies can build submarines. Then the potential OEMs will be selected, which can be the French, German or Russian. Then after final selection, it will be up to the SP to select and tie-up with the OEMs.

But if Reliance is selected then it will obviously select DCNS as you are already collaborating on the LPD (Landing Platform Docks) project …

We are working for four years with Reliance for the LPD project due to which we have known their shipyard and their capability. So it seems natural that when the RFP for P75(I) will be issued, they will consult us. But we will be the Navy’s and MoD’s guide, as they are our customers.

The LPD programme has again been revived by the government after it faced initial hiccups. How are you viewing the opportunity?

Well, DCNS along with Reliance is going to submit its bid on June 22. We are offering the Mistral solution. We hope to win the programme and emerge as the L1.

What happened to your FDI proposal to bring the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) technology for submarines to India?

The proposal has been deferred by the government. We have tried to explain it to MoD and Navy that we wanted to have a subsidiary to have at least 51 per cent in order to have control over it as far as intellectual property is concerned.

The government told us we are bringing a technology which is already with the DRDO. The idea is not to compete with the DRDO at all but to bring the knowledge here.

(This article was published on June 14, 2017)

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 15 Jun 2017 17:15

how are the aussies going to verify esp SW what tech is given or not to india ?

these are all apple pie statements that all seasoned arms exporters use...as in UAE F16 and Saudi F15 are more advanced than the ones that USAF uses.

can anyone in UAE verify if the seeker sw and eccm features of its AIM120 is not silently degraded by 20% vs the ones usaf gets. with capabilities being sw driven and even munitions getting periodic SW releases , its pretty easy to say anything and prove nothing.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 16 Jun 2017 06:37

Interesting. Looks like an interim torpedo will be the same one (AEG-SUT Mod-1) as the ones being used on Type-1500 Shishumar-class. It seems the IN has around 64 AEG SUT-66 Mod.1 heavyweight torpedoes in its inventory.

We are looking at the next order for submarines from the Indian Navy
...
But, these submarines are defenceless as the contract to procure the Black Shark torpedoes was cancelled and Navy is now looking at German SeaHake …

We have successfully test fired a torpedo from the Navy’s current inventory. If the Navy has a requirement for additional torpedoes, DCNS will be offering the new generation French F21 torpedo. But DCNS is also fully prepared to help in integrating any other heavy weight torpedo if the Navy so chooses.
...

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 16 Jun 2017 19:11

Srai,I think you're spot on.The torpedo test fired was from the stock of those used aboard the U-boats to validate the firing regime and mechanism of the Scorpene's torpedo system. If Sea Hake is being soused out and likely to come,also for the upgrades for the U-209s,then it would be an excellent choice as these fish are deadly and also used by our mortal enemy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DM2A4
Being the successor of the DM2A3, it features an advanced electrical propulsion system and a fiber optic cable for torpedo guidance and communication, which, in conjunction with advanced signals processing and mission logic, makes the torpedo largely countermeasure resistant.[2] The DM2A4/SeaHake mod 4 is the first torpedo ever to be guided by a fiber optic wire.[3] With a fully digital system architecture, increased range and speed and its new conformal array sonar with a very wide panoramic sensor angle as well as the additional wake-homing sensor, the DM2A4/SeaHake mod 4 provides greatly advanced performance over its predecessor. The homing head shell is a hydrodynamic optimised parabolic shape which aims to reduce torpedo self-noise and cavitation to an absolute minimum. The homing head's conformal transducer array permits detection angles of +/-100° in the horizontal and +/-24° in the vertical, therefore supporting larger acquisition angles in comparison to traditional flat arrays. The wide angle array is designed to reduce maneuvering when in search and reconnaissance stages, therefore also reducing self-noise and preserving battery power.

The weapon has a modular design that includes up to four silver zinc battery modules and is able to achieve a range of more than 50 km (27 nmi) and a speed exceeding 92.6 km/h (50 kn) powered by a high frequency permanent magnet motor, with a closed-loop cooling system independent from the environment. Exact performance data are classified.[4] The torpedo design template may also be used as the basis for ROV.[5] The weapon is armed with a 260 kg PBX, (RDX–aluminium) warhead (equivalent to 460 kg of TNT) with magnetic influence and contact fuzes.[5] The charge and fuse are insensitive and electromagnetic pulse safe.

The weapon has a length of 6.6 m when configured with 4 battery modules, and is respectively shorter when configured with either 3 or 2 battery modules depending upon the requirement of the operating unit. Diameter of the unit is 533 mm.

Service history[edit]
The torpedo is in service with the German Navy Type 212 submarines, has been delivered to the Pakistan Navy for service in the Agosta 90B submarines, has been selected by the Spanish Navy for its new S80A submarines and has been sold to other operators worldwide.[6][7][8]


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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jun 2017 22:14

srai wrote:Interesting. Looks like an interim torpedo will be the same one (AEG-SUT Mod-1) as the ones being used on Type-1500 Shishumar-class. It seems the IN has around 64 AEG SUT-66 Mod.1 heavyweight torpedoes in its inventory.

We are looking at the next order for submarines from the Indian Navy
...
But, these submarines are defenceless as the contract to procure the Black Shark torpedoes was cancelled and Navy is now looking at German SeaHake …

We have successfully test fired a torpedo from the Navy’s current inventory. If the Navy has a requirement for additional torpedoes, DCNS will be offering the new generation French F21 torpedo. But DCNS is also fully prepared to help in integrating any other heavy weight torpedo if the Navy so chooses.
...



The last seems to ba green light for varunastra.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 17 Jun 2017 05:37

^^^
That would be great, but length might be an issue.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 17 Jun 2017 22:11

http://www.pressreader.com/india/vayu-a ... 2838800153

Vayu Aerospace and Defence

1 Jun 2017
Sayan Majumdar


At the Euron­aval show in Oc­to­ber 2016, se­nior At­las Elek­tronik ex­ec­u­tive Wolf­gang Klose in­formed this Vayu cor­re­spon­dent that the DM2A4 See­hecht (ex­port name: SeaHake mod4), the main un­der­wa­ter weapon of the Ger­man Navy’s Type 212 sub­marines, has been pro­posed as a ‘Make in In­dia’ ini­tia­tive.

The heavy­weight tor­pedo, weigh­ing 1.37 tonnes, can be launched from both sub­marines and sur­face ships. The weapon is 6.6 m long when con­fig­ured with 4 bat­tery mod­ules, and is re­spec­tively shorter when con­fig­ured withh ei­ther 3 or 2 bat­tery mod­ules, while di­am­e­ter re­mains con­stant at the stan­dard 533 mm.

At the Euron­aval show in Oc­to­ber 2016, se­nior At­las Elek­tronik ex­ec­u­tive Wolf­gang Klose in­formed this Vayu cor­re­spon­dent that the DM2A4 See­hecht (ex­port name: SeaHake mod4), the main un­der­wa­ter weapon of the Ger­man Navy’s Type 212 sub­marines, has been pro­posed as a ‘Make in In­dia’ ini­tia­tive. The heavy­weight tor­pedo, weigh­ing 1.37 tonnes, can be launched from both sub­marines and sur­face ships.

The weapon is 6.6 m long when con­fig­ured with 4 bat­tery mod­ules, and is re­spec­tively shorter when con­fig­ured withh ei­ther 3 or 2 bat­tery mod­ules, while di­am­e­ter re­mains con­stant at the stan­dard 533 mm.

De­vel­oped by At­las Elek­tronik, the SeaHake mod4 tor­pedo em­ploys fi­bre op­tic wire guid­ance in con­junc­tion with ad­vancedd sig­nals pro­cess­ing and mis­sion logic to ac­cu­rately­ately en­gage un­der­wa­ter and above-wa­ter tar­gets, and d car­ries a 255 kg PBX war­head with mag­netic in­flu­enceuence and con­tact fuses.

The tor­pedo is equipped with a high fre­quency per­ma­nent mag­net mo­tor (with a closed-loopop cool­ing sys­tem in­de­pen­dent from the en­vi­ron­ment) and sil­ver zinc inc bat­tery mod­ules en­sur­ing a max­i­mum speed of 50 knots and a rangeange of over 50 km.

De­vel­oped by At­las Elek­tronik, the SeaHake mod4 tor­pedo em­ploys fi­bre op­tic wire guid­ance in con­junc­tion with ad­vancedd sig­nals pro­cess­ing and mis­sion logic to ac­cu­rately­ately en­gage un­der­wa­ter and above-wa­ter tar­gets, and d car­ries a 255 kg PBX war­head with mag­netic in­flu­enceuence and con­tact fuses.

The tor­pedo is equipped with a high fre­quency per­ma­nent mag­net mo­tor (with a closed-loopop cool­ing sys­tem in­de­pen­dent from the en­vi­ron­ment) and sil­ver zinc inc bat­tery mod­ules en­sur­ing a max­i­mum speed of 50 knots and a rangeange of over 50 km.

With a fully dig­i­tal sys­tem ar­chi­tec­ture, in­creased ncreased range and speed and its new con­for­mal ar­ray sonar with a very wide panoramic sen­sor angle as well as the ad­di­tional wake-hom­ing hom­ing sen­sor, the DM2A4/SeaHake mod 4 pro­vides greatly ad­vanced vanced per­for­mance over its pre­de­ces­sor.

The hom­ing head shell is s of hy­dro­dy­namic op­ti­mised par­a­bolic shape, which aims to re­duce educe tor­pedo self­noise and cav­i­ta­tion to an ab­so­lute min­i­mum.

The hom­ing head’s con­for­mal trans­ducer ar­ray per­mits de­tec­tion an­gles of ±100 de­grees in the hor­i­zon­tal and ±24 de­grees in the ver­ti­cal, there­fore sup­port­ing larger ac­qui­si­tion an­gles in com­par­i­son to tra­di­tional flat ar­rays.

The wide angle ar­ray is de­signed to re­duce ma­noeu­vring when in search and re­con­nais­sance stages, there­fore also re­duc­ing self-noise and pre­serv­ing bat­tery power.

With a fully dig­i­tal sys­tem ar­chi­tec­ture, in­creased ncreased range and speed and its new con­for­mal ar­ray sonar with a very wide panoramic sen­sor angle as well as the ad­di­tional wake-hom­ing hom­ing sen­sor, the DM2A4/SeaHake mod 4 pro­vides greatly ad­vanced vanced per­for­mance over its pre­de­ces­sor.

The hom­ing head shell is s of hy­dro­dy­namic op­ti­mised par­a­bolic shape, which aims to re­duce educe tor­pedo self­noise and cav­i­ta­tion to an ab­so­lute min­i­mum.

The hom­ing head’s con­for­mal trans­ducer ar­ray per­mits de­tec­tion an­gles of ±100 de­grees in the hor­i­zon­tal and ±24 de­grees in the ver­ti­cal, there­fore sup­port­ing larger ac­qui­si­tion an­gles in com­par­i­son to tra­di­tional flat ar­rays.

The wide angle ar­ray is de­signed to re­duce ma­noeu­vring when in search and re­con­nais­sance stages, there­fore also re­duc­ing self-noise and pre­serv­ing bat­tery power.

With a fully dig­i­tal sys­tem ar­chi­tec­ture, in­creased ncreased range and speed and its new con­for­mal ar­ray sonar with a very wide panoramic sen­sor angle as well as the ad­di­tional wake-hom­ing hom­ing sen­sor, the DM2A4/SeaHake mod 4 pro­vides greatly ad­vanced vanced per­for­mance over its pre­de­ces­sor.

The hom­ing head shell is s of hy­dro­dy­namic op­ti­mised par­a­bolic shape, which aims to re­duce educe tor­pedo self­noise and cav­i­ta­tion to an ab­so­lute min­i­mum.

The hom­ing head’s con­for­mal trans­ducer ar­ray per­mits de­tec­tion an­gles of ±100 de­grees in the hor­i­zon­tal and ±24 de­grees in the ver­ti­cal, there­fore sup­port­ing larger ac­qui­si­tion an­gles in com­par­i­son to tra­di­tional flat ar­rays.

The wide angle ar­ray is de­signed to re­duce ma­noeu­vring when in search and re­con­nais­sance stages, there­fore also re­duc­ing self-noise and pre­serv­ing bat­tery power.

Mean­while, At­las Elek­tronik have de­vel­oped the SeaHake mod4 ER ver­sion that along with Global Po­si­tion­ing Sys­tem (GPS) guid­ance and Satel­lite Com­mu­ni­ca­tion (SATCOM) with sig­nals re­ceived through a mini periscope, en­ables the tor­pedo to At­tain a range of 140 km.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 19 Jun 2017 12:36

In a report,whose accuracy one can't verify unless one was present at the conf.,the CNS was quoted as saying that the recent test of a fish on a Scorpene was "indigenous". So what gives?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 19 Jun 2017 13:14

^^^
All public reports of the test and jaitleys tweet mentioned the presence of scientists and engineers. So we may take comfort in the fact that their prescence was required.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 02 Jul 2017 15:59

Austin had posted the below link in R&D Thread. Copied from there and pasting here as well.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 197492.ece

Lithium-ion batteries will replace all batteries in the defence and space sector. It is the future of battery technology and set to replace the lead-acid models, said Chairman of DRDO and Secretary of Department of Defence R&D Dr. S. Chirstopher here on Saturday.


From the article, Naval Science and Technological Laboratory (NSTL), Vishakapatnam seems to be working on Li-ion battery and their development is in advanced stage. Since a DRDO naval laboratory is working on it, intention seems to be to replace lead acid batteries of subs which are the major consumers and then slowly replace on ships etc.
If we are successful in say converting kilo into a li-ion kilo, this potentially opens up a lucrative market for naval power systems upgradation. Sadly DRDO doesnt have a marketing arm like Antrix or Rosboronexport and Lab chief themselves dont have profitability targets.
Since another drdo naval lab, Naval Materials Research Laboratory, Ambernath is into AIP that is also a power storage/generation device what is the purpose of having two labs working on similar products? I am sure both would be operating in silos :mrgreen: (no pun intended) and both coming up with a different solution for a common problem.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Yagnasri » 03 Jul 2017 09:30

https://www.space.com/37348-nasa-fissio ... olony.html

This reactor tech may have serious applications for Subs also. Are we working on this?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Vips » 20 Jul 2017 05:43

Six in fray for Navy’s €8.3-billion advanced submarine project.

Six advanced submarines, to be built under Project 75(I) to scale up the Navy’s warfare capabilities, are set to get off the starters’ block, with the Navy issuing a Request for Information (RFI) to six foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the €8.3-billion submarine project.

“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” confirmed officials who got the RFI, adding that “the L1 for P-75(I) will most likely be announced only at the end of next year.”

A surprise contender among the six OEMs is Japan’s leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which have been “strongly promoting their technological prowess to win contracts to build India’s next generation of submarines,” said sources.

Other than Japan, OEMs from Spain, France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are also in the mix, and have been issued the RFI that details the technical requirements the Indian Navy would like in P-75(I), said sources.

The Navy has issued the RFI to Russian submarine manufacturer Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, French naval contractor Naval Group (earlier DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab.

“The manufacture of six next-generation stealth submarines has moved to the crucial next stage with this RFI,” said an official, who bagged the RFI, seeking anonymity. “Qualified OEMs, which are the technology provider, will be issued an expression of interest (EoI) much later by the Indian Navy. This (foreign OEMs) is patented under India’s newly-announced Strategic Partnership Model in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016,” the official added.

Stating that the long-delayed procedure has got a fresh lease of life with the issuance of the RFI, sources indicated that the foreign OEMs will respond to the RFI “to show how they are qualified to build the six submarines with a partner in India. The OEMs will be transferring important know-how, and actual transfer of technology will be key to ascertain which foreign tech partner teams up with the Indian strategical partner.”

Sources added that though the basic parameters of importance in the RFI was the Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP), “which is very innovative, though dangerous,” details were also sought on the means to increase the submarines’ “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability.”

Among other things, the OEMs were asked to submit data on the proposed design for torpedo tubes, sources said, which could launch heavy-weight torpedoes, missiles and discharge other weapons. They were also asked to elaborate on the transfer of technology they were willing to undertake with regard to the submarine design and construction. The OEMs were asked to detail their plans for the discharge of offset commitments.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 20 Jul 2017 07:03

I thought it was already decided in Parrikar time that it's going to be govt to govt FMS deal:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 833234.cms
German Ambassador to India Michael Steiner said the P-75(I) project was under discussion and that the matter also came up during German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen's visit here last month.

"They did not talk about how this deal should be done... whether this should be Business-to-Business or Government-to -Government. But as our Minister said, from these talks, it was a clear sign that there is potential for cooperation in this field (defence) and also in the field of submarines," he said while speaking to reporters on the sidelines of an event here last night.

German defence major TKMS is offering India its HDW Class 214 vessel and is in talks with leading shipyards in the country for a tie-up.

The Germans are also promising a no-hold barred transfer of technology in line with the Narendra Modi government's 'Make in India' push.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 20 Jul 2017 07:14

If Germany wants a chance at winnig this - they need to put the Type 212 on the table. Which will never happen, so they will not win.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby sudarshan » 20 Jul 2017 07:31

Singha wrote:
shiv wrote:There is already a DRDO version of AIP but I am not sure if anyone uses Li-ion on subs (genuine ignorance here) - I thought it was always lead acid


Li ion has had its teething troubles on the 787 batteries which are japan made. but if the japanese believe they are safe for sub use they are well tested, unlike cheen or the old ussr, they are unlikely to rush unsafe things into service for political posturing.

they usually follow protocols and take the time to do a proper job


A few years back, an experimental sub in the US Navy caught fire and was destroyed, and the failure was traced back to the Li-Ion battery system. The theory was that one single cell exploded in the Li-Ion battery system. At the time, these systems were notorious for cascading failures from even a single cell, so that one little explosion would have caused a chain reaction of explosions in neighboring cells, eventually leading to the whole battery blowing up (these cells/ batteries had some spectacular energy densities even back then). I don't know if they actually traced the failure back to a single cell, or whether this was the hypothesis, but it was definitely the Li-Ion battery that destroyed that sub. It resulted in a call for projects to evaluate failure risk in individual cells, and then use that to model the risk of failure of an entire battery, given the parameters such as spacing between cells, configuration (series/ parallel, stacking pattern, etc.), Li-Ion chemistry, the shape characteristics of each individual cell, etc.

To cut a long story short - yes, Li-Ion batteries have been fitted on subs. But I think the battery fire destroyed the only prototype of that particular experimental sub.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 20 Jul 2017 08:54

$2B for a SSK, is it really worth ?I understand we have shallow waters in our neighborhood for which SSKs are preferable to large SSNs. But this is ridiculous amount.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2017 08:55

billion is the new million. these days even a well fitted corvette cost 500M.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prasad » 20 Jul 2017 09:07

Wait, we aren't doing any desi sub design? P-75I will be another import screwdrivered in our docks like the scorpene? Are we then going to do our own SSN design?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby abhik » 20 Jul 2017 09:54

"The Germans are also promising a no-hold barred transfer of technology in line with the Narendra Modi government's 'Make in India' push."
The scorpene subs we are make-in-Indiaing have 30% indigenous content by value. Wonder what no holds barred ToT will mean.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 20 Jul 2017 10:09

no holds will be barred in extracting $$ from indian coffers.

tsarkar sir once said barring the reactor, making a SSN is easier due to higher internal volume(driven by the reactor size driving up the hull size) and that a top notch SSK needs very small components in everything. kind of like iphone7 vs Mi max2

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Karthik S » 20 Jul 2017 10:15

Right now HSL is building Arihant class. Will we wait for SSNs till HSL is done with all SSBNs or will govt ask other shipyards to start building the hulls atleast, like L&T Kattupalli.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prasad » 20 Jul 2017 12:16

L&T wants to use desi AIP to build subs. If we buy say german subs, SSKs will come with their AIP ?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 20 Jul 2017 12:32

DE-esi AIP system not ready.L&T is firming up with a Ru entity for a joint dev, of an AIP system for a suitable design .

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby tsarkar » 20 Jul 2017 12:49

Karthik S wrote:Right now HSL is building Arihant class.

Are they? :shock:

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 20 Jul 2017 14:00

abhik wrote:"The Germans are also promising a no-hold barred transfer of technology in line with the Narendra Modi government's 'Make in India' push."
The scorpene subs we are make-in-Indiaing have 30% indigenous content by value. Wonder what no holds barred ToT will mean.

Even the French said something similar during MMRCA competition with its Rafale. They won't say no directly but will make the price of obtaining ToT so high that only limited amount will be purchased. Simple trick.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 21 Jul 2017 12:18

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 779029.ece
MUMBAI, JULY 19:
Six advanced submarines, to be built under Project 75(I) to scale up the Navy’s warfare capabilities, are set to get off the starters’ block, with the Navy issuing a Request for Information (RFI) to six foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for the €8.3-billion submarine project.

“The Indian Navy has issued an RFI asking competent companies that have independently designed and constructed a modern submarine, which is either currently in service or is undergoing sea trials,” confirmed officials who got the RFI, adding that “the L1 for P-75(I) will most likely be announced only at the end of next year.”

A surprise contender among the six OEMs is Japan’s leading shipbuilders Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, which have been “strongly promoting their technological prowess to win contracts to build India’s next generation of submarines,” said sources.

Other than Japan, OEMs from Spain, France, Germany, Russia and Sweden are also in the mix, and have been issued the RFI that details the technical requirements the Indian Navy would like in P-75(I), said sources.

The Navy has issued the RFI to Russian submarine manufacturer Rosoboronexport Rubin Design Bureau, French naval contractor Naval Group (earlier DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Spain’s Navantia and Sweden’s Saab.

“The manufacture of six next-generation stealth submarines has moved to the crucial next stage with this RFI,” said an official, who bagged the RFI, seeking anonymity. “Qualified OEMs, which are the technology provider, will be issued an expression of interest (EoI) much later by the Indian Navy. This (foreign OEMs) is patented under India’s newly-announced Strategic Partnership Model in the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016,” the official added.

Technology transfer
Stating that the long-delayed procedure has got a fresh lease of life with the issuance of the RFI, sources indicated that the foreign OEMs will respond to the RFI “to show how they are qualified to build the six submarines with a partner in India. The OEMs will be transferring important know-how, and actual transfer of technology will be key to ascertain which foreign tech partner teams up with the Indian strategical partner.”

Sources added that though the basic parameters of importance in the RFI was the Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP), “which is very innovative, though dangerous,” details were also sought on the means to increase the submarines’ “endurance and stealth capability, anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capability, and land attack capability.”

Among other things, the OEMs were asked to submit data on the proposed design for torpedo tubes, sources said, which could launch heavy-weight torpedoes, missiles and discharge other weapons. They were also asked to elaborate on the transfer of technology they were willing to undertake with regard to the submarine design and construction. The OEMs were asked to detail their plans for the discharge of offset commitments.

(This article was published on July 19, 2017)


PS:The highlighted bit about "subs in service or undergoing sea trials" is a v.important factor.It thus rules out paper subs,such as proposed by the French and Germans for the OZ tender. This leaves the U-214,Sweden's Kockums' wares,MIsubishi's Soryu's and Rubin's Amur/Lada in the ring,apart from the Spanish/French Scorpene versions.The Spanish boat not too long ago was supposed to have a fatal design flaw and should be considered as an outsider .If the Scorpene+ AIP is considered,we would rather go along with the French than the Spanish ,following on from the first batch.

The only problem is that French and German boats are v.expensive.SoKo is building a new 3000t boat,following on from their U-boats built under licence.Why this boat hasn't been thrown into the ring is a moot Q.Based upon earlier U-boat designs,this is a local improved boat with SoKo only features/tech.Given India's close relationship with SoKo,with L&T to build SoKO tracked howitzers in India,this may be amissed opportunity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_At ... ne_program
The third part of the program, KSS-III began in 2007. This class will have significant improvements when compared to its predecessors. A total of nine 3,000-ton KSS-III submarines are expected to be built in South Korea with indigenous technologies (i.e. not going under license as the previous KSS-I and KSS-II submarines).[2]

In May 2009, South Korea decided to delay by two years its KSS-III project.[2] The project is expected to cost around 800 million dollars per ship (597 million euros).

The first KSS-III ship will be ready for service by 2025. The previous plan was to have an operational unit ready by 2017. Due to the relatively heavy displacement of the ship (3000~3500 tons) and the fact that it will be built with local Korean technologies (sensitive technologies might be blocked from export) the production of the submarine was delayed. This new class of ship will have the Vertical Launch System which will be able to carry up to 10 indigenous Hyunmoo cruise missiles. The first submarine in the Republic of Korea Navy to have this kind of capability. It will also have many other improvements compared to its predecessors.


The Japanese Soryu class failed to make the grade in the OZ tender and since its tech is solely Japanese with some US element in it,it is highly unlikely that the Soryu will be shortlisted. The Swedes with their Stirling engine AIP system,used aboard Paki and Chin subs,is likely to rank above the Spanish and Japanese boats.The top 3 in my opinion are the German U-boats,French Scorpene+ and Rubin'as Amur/Lada.The fact that L&T and Rubin have agreed/in talks, to jointly develop an AIP system since the DRDO system hasn't arrived,should give them an edge,provided the sub meets all the performance parameters demanded by the IN.The Lada,took a decade before its glitches were ironed out,during which time more advanced sensors/eqpt. were introduced.BMos models of the same have been displayed which should give it an edge over non-Ru boats which will given the JV between India and Ru.,an added advantage.One can't see Russia permitting a firang sub manufacturer BMos capability in a competition.There must be something in the JV agreement reg. this aspect.Ultimately,the cost of each boat ,along with type and cost of weaponry,will be a key factor,all other parameters being met or equal.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby chola » 21 Jul 2017 12:37

Karthik S wrote:$2B for a SSK, is it really worth ?I understand we have shallow waters in our neighborhood for which SSKs are preferable to large SSNs. But this is ridiculous amount.


Nope, we should seriously entertain an all nook sub fleet. You are telling me that the US don't worry about shallow waters? Doubtful. Price was always the determinant for building inferior boats. But once price advantage is gone, there is no reason for buying lesser product.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Kersi » 21 Jul 2017 12:52

Philip. How many Amurs are in service ?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prasad » 21 Jul 2017 12:53

I thought P75I was for our own design with foreign help? Thrown out the window eh.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 21 Jul 2017 13:17

soryu was beaten in oz deal (existing class, with soryu2 coming along) by a political french campaign which in the end will not really help australia. the french are far better wheeler dealers in arms bazaar than japan which has never exported major items. so the "package" incl deposits in swiss banks and natasha madams is very "sub"-par and underwater (pun intended) vs the french tableau

of the existing types this is the one which most suits us. they have some american / german stuff none of which is a issue for us. the kockums AIP is being cast aside in soryu2 for Li-ion.

30 heavy torpedoes + a new 12 cell brahmos plug aft of the sail can put a lot of heat on target.

japan can blame only itself if it chooses not to bid for this tender.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Prasad » 21 Jul 2017 13:36

If Abe manages to hold on long enough, Modi could work something out. But can we do our own SSK/SSN design with japani help?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 21 Jul 2017 13:42

Image

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby titash » 21 Jul 2017 20:59

That is one obscene pic :shock: :twisted:

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srin » 22 Jul 2017 18:52

This looks to be another MMRCA in the making. And going to be massive waste of time.

Due to Arihant and scorpenes, I'm hoping we've mastered submarine design, hull fabrication, sonars and software related to all that. We may not have the propulsion tech and torpedoes yet.
We should be taking up local copies of scorpenes on parallel production lines. And negotiate separately for the things we don't have, so our MDL etc are still the OEMs. Forget the VLS plug - in a few years, Brahmos-M will be out to be able to fire via the torpedo tubes.

Will all this take time ? Yeah, but not as much time as doing the full RFP and procurement and local production.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arvin » 23 Jul 2017 17:58

Let's hope this is the last of RFI---RFP---RFQ---RIP process for foreign submarines. This tender might also deter frogs from extracting too much for 3 additional subs.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 24 Jul 2017 15:11

Kersi,2 in service,2 more nearing completion and another 6-8 planned.Amur glitches have supposedly been ironed out.The moot point is whether it still lives up to the hype about it being much cheaper than a Kilo, and a far better sonar,improved quietness,etc.Russia is still churning out improved Kilos both for export and home use.

What the IN must not fall into is the trap of trying to obtain a conventional boat which has almost all qualities of an N-boat. This will make it too sophisticated,prone to under-reliability of systems and components ,when a tough,rough and rugged sub,reliable at all times,equipped with the best weaponry and sonars is what is required. Such a boat would also be frighteningly expensive,where the cost-benefit factor would tilt in favour of a genuine AIP Boat,an SSN.

We should acquire/build "(sea) horses for courses"
SSBNs and SSGN/SSSNs for the strat. second strike and long endurance ,long range blue water patrol/ops.
Diesel/AIP subs also have good endurance and roughly around 45-65 operational days These boats could be in two related sizes/classes . The larger nne for blue-water ops and the other smaller for the IOR littoral and coastal duties.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Manish_Sharma » 24 Jul 2017 18:25

Today's ToiLET reports about revival of decade old P75i acquisition process. Strange thing is that upto now media has been reporting it as 50,000 crore deal, today they mentioned it as 70,000 crore affair. What info they get to price or increasing price of deals?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby SaiK » 24 Jul 2017 18:41

DCNS and Kawasaki can deliver to what we want, and I hope it has both AIP and VLS with the displacements we need. DCNS made us unhappy with AIP sales to Pakis and denying the same for the Scorpenes. Soryu ko jai ho as well. I hope we move faster on these subs.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Marten » 24 Jul 2017 18:42

Prasad wrote:If Abe manages to hold on long enough, Modi could work something out. But can we do our own SSK/SSN design with japani help?

If Mitsubishi were allowed to collaborate with an Indian entity, they would gladly do it. Policy proscribes local partner. SP approach along with 75% ownership and therefore profit repatriation should probably spur them on. However, it is very likely they will insist on using special grade steels that are only made in Japan! Some sites in TN were scouted out by some consortium but I don't know the geography or Naval history of the locations (Tutti Corin for ex) so it could have been for any manufacturing, and not arms.


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