Project 75I - It Begins

[Gerard]

Which submarines have been proven in war ?

Since the Korean war?

The SSN HMS Conqueror (S48) which sunk the Argentine cruiser General Belgrano during the 1982 Falklands war.
PNS Hangor (S131) which sank the INS Khukri during the 1971 war.

Both are now obsolete designs.

[Manish_P]

Which submarines have been proven in war ?

Even when there is no war (a declared one) the submarine factor features high in the list of threat priorities.

Please note how much time and efforts we had to take to track down the Agosta class of the PN

Pakistan feared India strike, hid sub for counter-attack after Balakot

The vanishing act by PNS Saad fitted with air independent propulsion (a technology that allows submarines to stay under water for a longer period than normal submarines) swung the entire Indian Navy into action

“From the location near Karachi from where it vanished, it could reach Gujarat coast in three days and Mumbai in five days. It was seen as a major threat to the security of the country,” the sources said.

Soon, anti-submarine warfare specialist warships and aircraft were positioned to help hunt for the missing Pakistani submarine. As the days progressed, the Indian Navy kept expanding its area of search for the Pakistani boat and satellites were also used to locate it.

After 21 days of an extensive search, the Navy finally located the submarine on the western side of Pakistan. It was sent there for hiding, to ensure a covert capability in case of extension in hostilities in the aftermath of the Balakot airstrikes.

[Rakesh]

Navantia presents S80 Plus submarine for India's P-75I at Underwater Defence & Security 2020 conference
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... rence.html

[Rakesh]

Amid COVID-19 situation, Defence forces asked to put on hold their acquisition processes
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 423124935/

[Rakesh]

Watch this video on the Type 636.3 boat...

[kit]

Watch this video on the Type 636.3 boat...

so let me try to understand this., first of all, it is incredible that the Astute submarine was detected ., apparently the kilo (s) did not let the Astute get into firing position., i presume the Astute was trying to launch cruise missiles., so then how exactly would the Russian sub (s) do it ?

Also a sub like Kilo is deadly in the hands of a well-trained crew !.. hats off to them !..shows war is not just about technology., but the people who man them

[Kakkaji]

Amid COVID-19 situation, Defence forces asked to put on hold their acquisition processes
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 423124935/

When the Covid 19 passes, just replace the "Covid 19" in the headline above with the next thing e.g. "sand storm over Delhi" and repeat the story.

If this headline does not show up for 5 years, India will be a military superpower.

[Kakkaji]

Also a sub like Kilo is deadly in the hands of a well-trained crew !.. hats off to them !..shows war is not just about technology., but the people who man them

So, why not just buy/ build new Kilos (not abndoned junk), and scrap the Project 75I altogether?

[Aditya_V]

Also a sub like Kilo is deadly in the hands of a well-trained crew !.. hats off to them !..shows war is not just about technology., but the people who man them

So, why not just buy/ build new Kilos (not abndoned junk), and scrap the Project 75I altogether?

That would be typical short term thinking we have been doing, for the long term since we are already building our own SSN, we can get weapons, combat Management, Hull steel, outfitting etc in common with those SSN.

[kit]

The Kilos in RuN is a different variant than that exported, besides we don't know the pennant number for the kilos dancing with the Astute !

[Rishirishi]

I stand corrected. Which AIP systems have been proven in war?

Which submarines have been proven in war ?

WW2 proved the value of subs. It was perhaps the most feared German weapon and sunk up to 3000 allied ships.

Even today, subs are one of the greatest fears of even a carrier group. It can singelhandly challenge the whole group.

Particularly the nuclear subs are very dangerous, as they can stay submerged for up to 90 days.

[Philip]

Any extra Kilos are only stop-gap solutions.The long term plans for a robust sub force ,both nuclear and conv. AIP must be prepared and executed. New subs must carry new missiles and weapons for anti-ship,sub and land attack. Only N- subs can accomplish all tasks carrying enough weaponry.We need two types of AIP subs,one prioritised for ASW and anti-ship,v.stealthy,with additional Shkval rocket torpedoes and the other with land attack missiles in addition to ASW/ anti-ship weaponry. UVLS cells carrying a mix resolve the missile option of operation,but larger sized conv. subs demand larger power plants,etc. We shouldn't make the mistake that OZ is doing building a v.expensive class of conv. boat that attempts to mimic a genuine N-sub. The IN need large numbers of conv. boats,cheaper than N-boats, for IOR ops like sanitising the chokepoints from ingress of large nos. of PLAN subs, eliminating the PN sub threat requiring a blockade of Paki ports, plus escorting our energy supplies from the Gulf,etc. Reducing dependence on fossil fuels through solar power,wind,etc. as many nations are doing should be a priority,but that's another topic.

Future weaponry aboard our subs will include
BMos- NG,Kalibir perhaps,Nirbhay,and long endurance WG torpedoes for anti-sub/ship. Some kind of UUV aboard is a must too to be able to scout ahead,extending the sphere of detection.

For the interim,leasing more upgraded Akulas will give us a qualitative edge over the PLAN in carrying out ops in the ICS and beyond.

[John]

Which submarines have been proven in war ?

WW2 proved the value of subs. It was perhaps the most feared German weapon and sunk up to 3000 allied ships.

Even today, subs are one of the greatest fears of even a carrier group. It can singelhandly challenge the whole group.

Particularly the nuclear subs are very dangerous, as they can stay submerged for up to 90 days.

Germany had operated over 1000 uboats and lost over 700 of them in ww2. They are effective when they are operated in large nos.

In WW2, They were also much cheaper than large surface combatants where as top of line modern SSKs are more expensive than even DDGs (we paid around bill each for scorpene adj for inflation).

[jpremnath]

WW2 proved the value of subs. It was perhaps the most feared German weapon and sunk up to 3000 allied ships.

Even today, subs are one of the greatest fears of even a carrier group. It can singelhandly challenge the whole group.

Particularly the nuclear subs are very dangerous, as they can stay submerged for up to 90 days.

Germany had operated over 1000 uboats and lost over 700 of them in ww2. They are effective when they are operated in large nos.

In WW2, They were also much cheaper than large surface combatants where as top of line modern SSKs are more expensive than even DDGs (we paid around bill each for scorpene adj for inflation).

If you think about the time and effort IN spent on hunting for a lone Paki sub in the recent times, 4 or 5 of them in the Arabian sea at any time during a conflict can not be dismissed as a minor scare. They will tie up most of the navy. For the pakis a single missile attack on any of our shore assets, be it military or industrial is a big win. That wretched nation lives on perception victories.

[Vivek K]

Or was it that the rest were accounted for and only one had executed a disappearing act?

[Rakesh]

I believe only PNS Saad was at sea and that was the one they located after a search.

[MeshaVishwas]

Remember oldies speaking about how the Arabian Sea is super conducive for Submarine ops and a how much of a nightmare the ASW ops are.
Explains why Pakis have this laser focus on Subs.

[Vivek K]

So not the end of the world then.

[Philip]

It scuttled away to hide off Gwadar fearing being sunk by the IN's
ASW assets!

[ArjunPandit]

If you think about the time and effort IN spent on hunting for a lone Paki sub in the recent times, 4 or 5 of them in the Arabian sea at any time during a conflict can not be dismissed as a minor scare. They will tie up most of the navy. For the pakis a single missile attack on any of our shore assets, be it military or industrial is a big win. That wretched nation lives on perception victories.

Here's my take on this..next naval conflict will be initiated by us. I am sure plannings will be made before hand. We anyways will go for offensive and will be ready for such hits..the area to protect will be key ports, e.g., Mumbai, Kandla, Hyd, Vishakhapattanam etc
posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=2431007

Also, please see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dwarka
they still tout killing of a cow in op dwarka as a success..

[jpremnath]

The Indian Mil Establishment's views on 'Objectives' totally discounts the effect on public morale. Pakis understand this better, their primary objective is to convince the average paki in the streets that they can strike India and the 'meek indians' wont dare to react. They dont care about the deaths in their ranks as long as their image to the public of being the mythical super-warriors is intact. And our govt and forces mostly comply and doesnt feel the need to burst this bubble. .
I remember during the UPA era, when there was frequent CF violations on the LOC, the announcements by the army about it without saying what they are doing to stop it only gave the image of class nerd being slapped around by the bully. By not announcing how we replied in kind and more, we are making the public feel that we are not strong enough. It took the public announcements of Surgical strikes and later Balakot strikes which gave some of that mojo back. It is high time the Govt realise the importance of having a perception management.

Two days back the army released the photo of an arrested militant during the ops. The ANI image showed a terrorist with a defiant face with a exhausted looking Jawan next to him. This image will be hit in the SM circles of Jehadis and Kashmir public. Im sure most of you guys have seen it. They could have released any other image if they realised how important optics is in an asymmetric warfare. For the enemy it is always perception victory that sustains his existence. If we dont cut off that at its roots, we will keeping loosing our precious Jawans.

This post doesnt belong in this thread. Mods please feel free to delete this.

[Philip]

The Israelis NEVER show faces of their soldiers for obvious reasons.We should do the same. Except perhaps when the highest gallantry awards are given. The enemy looks for every leaked opportunity. A few decades ago,there was great consternation when a high-level conference of top IB and intel officers from other agencies being addressed by a sr.minister ,was shown in a TV news item where the camera panned hhe faces of the attendees! Insiders said that it had compromised the identities of many in the intel community who were in the IB and other intel outfits, involved in counter-intel,etc.,etc.,some tailing firang spies.Their identities would've unintentionally been exposed to foreign missions.

Similarly,even submariners' identities should not be disclosed in media clips,perhaps the CO whose idenhity would be difficult to keep a secret. We have so many cases of the Pakis attempting entrapment of our serving forces using social media. Not too long ago there was the sensational busting of a Paki spy ring at several naval bases incl. Vizag,etc.

Coming back to the P-75I prog. which I posted the problems the OZ acquisition of French conv. subs was experirncing with huge cost overruns, must be a lesson to the project heads of the P-75I programme.Let's not make the design too ambitious which will make achieving performance targets difficult to achieve.There is a huge RMA in UW going on right now with the RN equipping its new SSNs with UW autonomous " gliders", to explore the deep,sea water characteristics as ocean features keep changing, which report their findings to the mother sub and other naval assets.

[Rishirishi]

It scuttled away to hide off Gwadar fearing being sunk by the IN's
ASW assets!

Does this mean that IN had the whereabouts of the rest of PN fleet?

[Rishirishi]

The Indian Mil Establishment's views on 'Objectives' totally discounts the effect on public morale. Pakis understand this better, their primary objective is to convince the average paki in the streets that they can strike India and the 'meek indians' wont dare to react. They dont care about the deaths in their ranks as long as their image to the public of being the mythical super-warriors is intact. And our govt and forces mostly comply and doesnt feel the need to burst this bubble. .
I remember during the UPA era, when there was frequent CF violations on the LOC, the announcements by the army about it without saying what they are doing to stop it only gave the image of class nerd being slapped around by the bully. By not announcing how we replied in kind and more, we are making the public feel that we are not strong enough. It took the public announcements of Surgical strikes and later Balakot strikes which gave some of that mojo back. It is high time the Govt realise the importance of having a perception management.

Two days back the army released the photo of an arrested militant during the ops. The ANI image showed a terrorist with a defiant face with a exhausted looking Jawan next to him. This image will be hit in the SM circles of Jehadis and Kashmir public. Im sure most of you guys have seen it. They could have released any other image if they realised how important optics is in an asymmetric warfare. For the enemy it is always perception victory that sustains his existence. If we dont cut off that at its roots, we will keeping loosing our precious Jawans.

This post doesnt belong in this thread. Mods please feel free to delete this.

A very good point.
Pakistani military staff have a lot of privileges in Pakistan. Their actions may be guided by their interest to protect the privileges and their greatest fear may be loss of respect and pride. f you want to hurt the PA, bombs will not help as much as humiliation will.

During Balakot strike, I was watching several Pakistani news channels. To my great surprise, the TSP Military became defensive on several occasions. In my perception the underlying issue seem to be; "why do you nurture those jehadis" ?

[Aditya_V]

Sorry bombs bring humiliation, maintaining ceasefires and allowing them space keeps thier respectability. The Paki military and many Kashmiri/ BIF behaves that the due to the propaganda that no Muslim army has lost to the infidels in 1000 years. This reinforces thier propaganda, Bangladesh defeat is dismissed due Yayha drinking and Islamic behavior (in truth he behaved like the rest of em). A steady stream of miltary defeats and those myths will shatter. Capture of Wing Commander Abhinandan was such a propaganda coup that the PAF was able to hide a string of failures from weapons misses to F16 loss and failure at Balakot. Wondering about the fake Su 30 kill, that's because when the MI 17 came down, Paki channels splashed images of IAF aircraft . Some sections PAF also for a few hours after firing 5 Amraams at the Su 30 also thought they had kill.

[Manish_Sharma]

^ why are you all writing OT posts? This is p75i thread

[Aditya_V]

Sorry was responding, no more from me. But I see a common theme- we want instant results, it will take time, lets just do the right thing.

[Philip]

Rishi,sorry for the late reply,but we allegedly had them by their goolies. Had it come to anything more serious,their goolies would've been well and truly cracked.