Project 75I - It Begins

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 27 Oct 2014 12:13

I think there are limitations on domestic supply of uranium and plutonium and how much the IN can get vs the weapons program. secondly while the cost of building a SSK vs SSN might be similar one has to plan for refueling cycle in 10-15 yrs as we do not have the advanced 30 yr life-of-ship reactors. we have put a bare 1 reactor into the sea vs 100s by the big boys. the arihant is not yet proven on deterrent patrols. nobody knows how much of a deterrent is 4 ICBMs.

IN will need to get their hands on 4 subs each with 12 ICBM to project itself as a credible 3rd leg of the triad.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 27 Oct 2014 15:55

You are right there. Its going to take a few more years to perfect our nuclear submarines and specially the reactors. Till that is done the numbers will need to be made up through conventional means. Now there is a case for indigenous design but since the nos need to be made up like yesterday, buying from abroad seems to be the only option.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 27 Oct 2014 21:33

John wrote:Hate to sound like a broken record, Diesel submarines are effective when cheap and mass produced they can make up for their slow submereged speed and limited payload with numbers and lower noise generation. It makes no sense to purchase them at costs that approach nuclear vessels. Fact that we have u-209 design and we are not mass produced them cheap is frustrating.

+1
SSKs irrespective of AIP are most effective for us within Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal only. 12 or so SSKs are sufficient for our Navy to operate in these areas. We need more SSN for carrier escort / blue water navy.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya G » 27 Oct 2014 22:42

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:12 or so SSKs are sufficient for our Navy to operate in these areas.


Going by original plan we still need another 12 SSKs. IMHO we should continue production of Scorpenes at Mazagaon even as we pursue Project-75I. Why should we make the same mistake as we did with the u-boats? We still have requirements for Arihant and follow on classes beyond this construction plan.

Conventional submarines remain relevant to IN especially in the Arabian Sea. Perhaps, SSKs may even hold advantage over nuclear subs.

We also need to abandon the classifications held by NATO on subs ... neither Arihant nor a VLS+AIP equipped P75I vessel fall into water tight categories such as SSK, SSGN and SSN. These are all strategic systems in our context and perform multiple roles.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 28 Oct 2014 02:30

Aditya G wrote:
saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:12 or so SSKs are sufficient for our Navy to operate in these areas.


Going by original plan we still need another 12 SSKs. IMHO we should continue production of Scorpenes at Mazagaon even as we pursue Project-75I. Why should we make the same mistake as we did with the u-boats? We still have requirements for Arihant and follow on classes beyond this construction plan.

Conventional submarines remain relevant to IN especially in the Arabian Sea. Perhaps, SSKs may even hold advantage over nuclear subs.

We also need to abandon the classifications held by NATO on subs ... neither Arihant nor a VLS+AIP equipped P75I vessel fall into water tight categories such as SSK, SSGN and SSN. These are all strategic systems in our context and perform multiple roles.

IMVHO P75I makes sense if its a further development of Scorpene
Pro:
1. Quick building of Infra
2. Use the experience gained at MDL with Scorpene
3. Any improvements will benefit Scorpene's also in any future refit.
4. Operational familiarity
Con:
Cost

Amur:
Supposed successor of Kilo
Pro: Operational familiarity
Con: No building experience on Kilo in India since all subs were built either at Nizhniy Novgorod or St. Petersburg

Soryu/others:
Completely new line of subs. Time consuming process.

Yes, conventional subs hold the edge in warmer waters like Arabian Sea or Bay of Bengal, where they can lie very close silent allowing longer away times (further improved by AIP). But if we want to develop strategic ties with Vietnam, US, Taiwan and Japan then nukes is the way to go.
Our sub-force cannot be TSP centric, it has to be able to deter PLAN.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cosmo_R » 28 Oct 2014 03:14

^^^
"Second, understanding that submarine-building programmes are delayed because foreign vendors cannot be made more accountable, the establishment has decided to make an Indian partner equally responsible."

What does 'accountable' mean for an Indian PSU? fines? blacklisting?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 28 Oct 2014 04:26

Range,Underwater endurance are key factors if we wish to play a blue-water game in the Indo-Asia=Pacific waters.This can only be met effectively by N-boats with a 90+ day patrol endurance as compared with 45-60 days max. for conventional boats which are far slower in getting to their patrol zone. C-boats are better tasked for littoral UW warfare.SoKo whioch has been building German U-boats for quite some time are to build a 3000t version of the same.Here are some details.

Already Seoul has announced it will build three domestically-designed 3,000-ton submarines beginning in 2018. They will be diesel-powered and are rumored to include vertical launch missile capabilities, which will dramatically improve ROKN’s long-range, underwater precision strike capabilities.

A Yonhap report earlier this month quoted an unnamed military source as saying the ROKN expects to actually commission at least nine of these 3,000-ton submarines by 2030.

The same source told Yonhap, “The 1,800-ton submarines have an underwater time about 10 times longer than the 1,200-ton submarines,” referring to the Type 214 and Type 209 submarines respectively. The source added: “Compared to the 1,800-ton subs, the 3,000-ton subs probably won't have an underwater time that is 10 times longer, but it will still be much longer.”

As Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI) has noted, the details emerging about the 3,000-ton vessels suggest that they are being designed with China’s burgeoning Navy in mind. Notably, South Korea is also building a naval base on Jeju Island, which many believe is designed to better position the ROKN to counter China.

Previously, the ROK submarine fleet was interpreted as being directed primarily at North Korea, which has some 70 or 80 low quality submarines that have periodically posed challenges to South Korea’s Navy. Most recently, in March 2010 a torpedo from a North Korean submarine sank the ROKN corvette, Cheonan.

“As a result” of the Cheonan incident, NTI notes, “ROKN officials have recently placed greater emphasis on the significant role of submarines in sea denial to hostile forces and anti-submarine warfare, rather than the longer-term goal of a blue-water navy.”

ROKN planners may also have Japan in mind in building up their underwater capabilities. Japan long operated eighteen submarines (including two trainers) but decided in 2010 to increase this figure to over twenty, according to the South Korean media. South Korea and Japan have a territorial dispute over the Liancourt Rocks (also called Dokdo by South Korea and Takeshima by Japan).


The Scorpene follow on design has no facility for a VLS module.Any future C-boat for the IN must have this capability to augment its weaponload of both BMos and Nirbhay missiles,while still allowing for a std. load of at least 18 anti-ship and anti-sub torpedoes,etc.There is also the cost factor and if the cost approaches that of an N-submit beggars the Q as to which is the better acquisition.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 28 Oct 2014 04:29

^^^ why go for C-Boat VLS, tube launched stuff like Klub works just as fine and I am sure our guys can come up with a compact variant of Nirbhay. N-boat is a better option for your mentioned weapon load. I don't think there is any precedence for a C-Boat with anything coming close to such a load out.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby nachiket » 28 Oct 2014 04:32

Philip wrote:The Scorpene follow on design has no facility for a VLS module.Any future C-boat for the IN must have this capability to augment its weaponload of both BMos and Nirbhay missiles,while still allowing for a std. load of at least 18 anti-ship and anti-sub torpedoes,etc.There is also the cost factor and if the cost approaches that of an N-submit beggars the Q as to which is the better acquisition.

That sentiment would be fine if there were a bunch of operational designs with VLS available to choose from or the IN was sitting pretty with an adequate number of SSK's for the current need and only thinking about the future. But we can't afford delays now and this just seems like yet another example of best being the enemy of good enough. The IN is critically short of subs needed for their primary role of hunting other subs and ships. Just evaluate the ones available and select one. They shouldn't let this end up like the IN's version of MRCA fifteen years down the line.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby amritk » 28 Oct 2014 04:35

Yagnasri wrote:But if SSN can do all the jobs of SSKs and some more and if the cost is almost one and same is it not prudent for us to go for SSNs based on Arihant? Will it also not standardize the supply line and production line and will reduce the costs further.

I mean how many nations have the variety of subs, ships, ACs etc like India? May be CHipanda alone with lot of trash.


SSN are noisier than SSK because the reactor support machinery cannot be shut down at short notice. SSK can go almost completely silent when machinery is shut down.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 28 Oct 2014 04:41

PS:The Indo-China Sea dispute appears to be hotting up with some analysts predicting a definite clash between China and some of the stakeholder nations in the ICS.Vietnam calls for India's help and we must respond positively.If China can send its subs into the IOR and park them in Colombo,we too should show the flag in the ICS and in Vietnamese ports.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 950403.cms
As China flexes its muscles, Vietnam seeks India’s ‘active support’ on South China Sea row
.
PTI | Oct 27, 2014,

Vietnam Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung waves at people after his arrival at the Palam Air Force Station in New Delhi, October 27, 2014. (PTI photo)
.
NEW DELHI: As disputed South China Sea witnesses increased Chinese influence, Vietnamese Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung on Monday pitched for India's "active support" to peacefully resolve all disputes and sought its greater linkages across the region.

Tan, who will hold talks on a range of issues with Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Tuesday, also made it clear that Vietnam has and will continue to allow ships from India. The remarks came a month after an Indian naval ship INS Airavat was asked to exit Chinese waters as it was approaching a Vietnamese port.

"The proper settlement of disputes in the East Sea for peace, stability, maritime security and safety and freedom of navigation in the region is in the common interest of countries in the region and beyond.

"In that spirit, Vietnam hopes that India, as a major power in the region and the world, will actively support the parties concerned to peacefully resolve all disputes, refrain from actions that may further complicate the situation, thus contributing to the maintenance of peace, stability, maritime security and safety and freedom of navigation in the East Sea," the Vietnamese prime minister told PTI in an interview.


Vietnam Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung and his wife Kiem wave after his arrival at the Palam Air Force Station in New Delhi, October 27, 2014. (Reuters photo)

Noting that Vietnam always attaches great importance to the friendship and cooperation with all countries including China, Tan said, "Accordingly, Vietnam supports India to increase multidimensional linkages with South East Asia. For the purpose of friendship and exchange, we have and will continue to allow ships from other countries including India to visit Vietnam."

"Vietnam hopes that India, with its increasingly important role, will make positive and responsible contributions to the maintenance of peace and stability and the region and the world," he said.

The remarks may not go down well with China, which has been objecting to Indian presence in the disputed South China Sea in oil exploration projects. Last month, China had asked Indian naval assault vessel, INS Airavat, which was on a routine call at a Vietnam port and was travelling in open international waters in the South China Sea, to leave the waters terming them as "Chinese waters".

Making clear its position on the East Sea issue, Tan said Vietnam and other Asean countries have consistently underlined the importance of complying with international law, the 1982 UNCLOS and maintaining peace, stability, maritime security and safety and freedom of navigation in the East Sea.


This picture taken on May 14, 2014 from a Vietnamese coast guard ship shows Chinese coast guard vessels sailing near China's oil drilling rig in disputed waters in the South China Sea. (Getty Images photo)


Territorial disputes in the South China Sea involve both island and maritime claims among seven sovereign states within the region -Brunei, the People's Republic of China, Taiwan, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Vietnam.

Asked whether Vietnam would like to settle the dispute with China bilaterally or will it act based on international law, the Vietnamese Prime Minister said his country always holds in high regard the traditional friendship and comprehensive cooperation with China and indicated that it would like the dispute to be settled in compliance with international law.

"However, Vietnam is determined to protect its sovereignty over the Hoang Sa and Truong Sa archipelagos as well as its sovereign rights and jurisdiction rights in these waters.

"With the tradition of amity and consistent foreign policy, Vietnam always perseveres with resolving all disputes through peaceful means, without resort to the use or threat of force, on the basis of exercising self-constraints and refraining from actions that may further complicate the situation, in compliance with international law, the 1982 UNCLOS, the Declaration on the Conduct of Parties in the South China Sea (DOC) and efforts toward a code of conduct (COC)," he said.

He said Vietnam always takes a proactive approach in its conduct in keeping with international law and takes advantage of every opportunity to reduce tension, restore trust, promote friendly cooperation, pursue dialogue to seek a fundamental and long-term solution to the East Sea issue.

Itu Aba Island, also known as Taiping Island, is one of many disputed islands in the South China Sea. (Getty Images photo)

On India-Vietnam deciding to further military cooperation and if it could be considered to be aimed at China? Ton said, "The foreign policy of Vietnam is consistent. We do not join any military alliance against another country."

Asked if Vietnam would be able to ensure the interests of foreign oil and gas companies currently active in the East Sea, he said, "Vietnam welcomes and is committed to creating every favourable condition for normal economic cooperation activities between Vietnamese oil and gas companies and their foreign partners, including Indian companies, in the Exclusive Economic Zone and continental shelf of Vietnam in keeping with the Vietnamese law and international law, particularly the 1982 UNCLOS."

Ton's visit is seen by Indian side as an opportunity to increase economic engagement even as the government was examining the Vietnamese offer of additional oil blocks for exploration in the South China Sea.


The speeding up of BMos missiles and other Indian mil. eqpt. to Vietnam is essential,esp. as the PLA is yet again attempting to change ground realities in Ar.Pradesh.
Last edited by Philip on 28 Oct 2014 04:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 28 Oct 2014 04:42

SSN can shut off propellers and remain very quiet. The main disadvantage of SSK is range. SSK works for littoral combat, they will be extremely effective in block PLAN entry at the mouth of Malacca Straits or blockade of TSPN.
SSN range/endurance cannot be matched by any SSK.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 28 Oct 2014 05:30

Yes Saurabh.The Akulas have special small "creep" motors that swing out from the hull when the sub is in silent mode.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby rahulm » 28 Oct 2014 06:25

Oz is also evaluating various options for 12 subs with a preference for the Japanese Soryu @ $600 million each The sub are to be built overseas to expedite delivery to bridge the capability gap. Original plan was to build in South Australia but this will delay the programme.

DCNS (Scorpene), Saab-Kockums and Thyssen Krupp (U-216) have made noises to be considered.

Scan of today's AFR article attached.
Last edited by rahulm on 28 Oct 2014 07:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Ankit Desai » 28 Oct 2014 06:28

Can we have poll for which two ship yards will be selected to manufacture six submarines ?

-Ankit

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Oct 2014 06:45

So again, why exactly are we forking over more than a billion dollahs per SSK? Not the Soryus, not the Scorpenes, and definitely not the Kilos - cause none of those cost as much. What is the secret sauce here?

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28797 » 28 Oct 2014 06:49

Well if it's a secret, let's keep it that way. Learn to respect the wisdom of our Military people

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby geeth » 28 Oct 2014 14:16

A nuclear submarine is more noisy when not moving because of the aux. machinery running..where as in conventional one it is mostly battery power.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby bharats » 28 Oct 2014 17:45

Russia and Germany Eye Project-75I , Battle Heats Up
Source: IDRW NEWS NETWORK ( INN )
Link: http://idrw.org/?p=45865

Image
Above image is sourced from Internet and idrw.org doesn't hold any copyright over above image.

Recently Defence ministry cleared defence projects worth Rs 80,000 crore major chunk of which will be consumed for purchasing conventional submarines under Project 75I at an estimated cost of Rs 50,000 crore . Indian Navy along with Indian Defence ministry will now sit down and visits 7 Shipyards in next two months and will select Shipyards who will manufacture all Six submarines in India.

idrw.org can confirm that among 7 shipyards selected, 2 are Private Shipyards which are Larsen & Toubro and Pipavav. 5 Public Sectors Shipyards are Mazagon Dockyard Ltd (MDL), Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) , Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL), Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE) , Cochin Shipyard Ltd . Mazagon Dockyard Ltd which is currently manufacturing French Scorpene submarines under Project 75 even though is facing Heavy Criticism due to continuous delays in the Project 75 , has been assured to land at least 2 Submarine construction. While at least 1 Private shipyard might bag order for one submarine construction.

Submarines shortlisted under Project-75I are The Amur 1650 (Russia), Scorpene (France), Type 214 (Germany) and S-80 (Spain). While Mazagon Dockyard Ltd has been advocating building enlarged Scorpene since they have already picked up submarine building skills from the earlier project , but it is unlikely to happen due to steep rise in cost of Project and French in name of inflation have doubled Equipment cost from already contracted ones .

Two Biggest Contenders fighting for Project-75I are Russia with Amur 1650 submarines and Germany with Class 214 submarine. Both countries have steeped up their back channel push for order and also are firing at all guns on diplomatic front too. Russia seems to be more desperate to bag the order and have been pushing hard for sale, Amur 1650 offered by Russia is dubbed has a modernised version of the Kilo-class submarine which can be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP), Amur boats are single-hulled, with minimal displacement allowing for reduced noise signature and improved propulsion quality has also is most effective modern non-nuclear submarine available today. Compared to similar boats in its class. On the downturn China might be first Export customer of Amur 1650 Submarines and Since China will also Built 2 in its Shipyards locally, technology might be replicated for building newer diesel Submarines for china. India and china earlier too operated Kilo class submarines but now situation has clearly changed and Indian navy might be wary of operating a weapons systems which also will be used by rival China.

Germany which lost to France in supply of Submarines under Project 75, is also on full offensive and has offered Type 214 submarine which is derived from the Type 212 and Export variant of it missing key Ground breaking technology which is non magnetic steel hull which makes the Type 212 submarine impossible to detect using a Magnetic Anomaly Detector. Type 214 scores over Amur 1650 in having better AIP system which give sub much more endurance days, energy efficient AIP system which Russians have contested in past, while Germans also brag that sonar suite on Type 214 submarine is highly superior to AMUR 1650 sonar suite ,while Russians can brag that Amur is much bigger and has better firepower and can be integrated with BrahMos SLCM variant, it reportedly has better stability at rough seas and will be cheaper then German offer. Spain's offer of S-80 Class is also under consideration, while Submarine project has suffered set backs due to weight imbalance issue at production stage and four submarines are yet to enter service with Spanish navy it gives it slight disadvantage over other submarines offered under Project 75I

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 28 Oct 2014 18:25

Definitely not going to be the current versions of either the Amur, 214 or S-80(not with all the trouble the S80 is having).

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Ankit Desai » 28 Oct 2014 18:54

nik wrote:Only thing to be certain of in next three months -
.......
British Cameron flying in right after - 'That's my money and am coming to get it. Are you forgetting that India needs to pay a royalty to the crown - I will keep all Kashmir protests boxed in as a freebie'
.........


British Defence Secretary Michael Fallon to visit Delhi on October 30

-Ankit

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kmc_chacko » 28 Oct 2014 19:35

IN should go for 6 + 6 (additional) Amur 1650 with additional 6 Scorpene's 12 Amur + 12 Scorpene might reduced stress on underwater force of IN. Any tech aquired from these procurements should be used for future Indigenous conventional & Nuclear subs.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srai » 28 Oct 2014 20:21

kmc_chacko wrote:IN should go for 6 + 6 (additional) Amur 1650 with additional 6 Scorpene's 12 Amur + 12 Scorpene might reduced stress on underwater force of IN. Any tech aquired from these procurements should be used for future Indigenous conventional & Nuclear subs.


IMO, an ideal path would be something like this:
  1. 6 x P-75 Scorpene SSK w/ TOT
  2. 6 x follow on P-75 indigenised Scorpene w/ large percentage of 'Made in India / Designed in India' components
  3. 6 x P-75I SSK w/ TOT
  4. 6 x follow on P-75I indigenised version w/ technologies from both P-75 and P-75I and 'Made in India / Designed in India' components

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 29 Oct 2014 03:06

As Nachi said,good enough" is what we need not the "best" which will take years to fructify.Why the offer of two Amurs immediately was spurned in favour of the 6 75-Is which will appear only post 2020 is a mystery.IN Amurs with VLS for BMos and Nirbhay will be markedly different from the ones China will get and the Russians always cautious about PRC illegal copies,give the Chinese inferior versions of their wares.If the Russians can alleviate India on that score,then the IN may go for it as costwise,it will certainly be much more attractive than the German U-boats.A deal for another Akula lease along with the Amur might be too attractive to miss,given the priority for the nation to build as many SSBNs asap,leaving us with inadequate numbers of indigenous SSGNs.

Here is a report on how China's N-boats are upsetting the balance of power on the maritime front in Asia.

http://www.businessinsider.in/Chinas-Ne ... 951830.cms
China's New Nuclear-Armed Submarine Fleet Could Upset The Balance Of Power In Asia
Jeremy Bender0Oct 27, 2014,

China is on the cusp of achieving a long-standing goal: fielding a submarine fleet that can rival even the US's naval supremacy in the Pacific, Jeremy Page writes for The Wall Street Journal.

Page reports that China has made significant progress in developing a sea-based nuclear deterrent - a group of nuclear-armed long-range subs that's nearly ready for deployment.

Today, China has one of the largest fleets of attack submarines in the world. Beijing can lay claim to six nuclear-powered attack vessels alongside an estimated 53 diesel-powered subs.

China also currently has three nuclear ballistic "boomer" submarines, according to the US Office of Naval Intelligence. These subs can stay at sea for long stretches time, making them a strategically crucial part of a country's nuclear deterrent.

Whereas nuclear-powered attack submarines can undertake multi-week missions at sea, their diesel counterparts are limited in range and must surface more regularly. This limits the utility of these attack vessels to a more defensive role along China's border and within the East and South China Seas.


However, it is the boomer submarines that can send a message to the US and flip the balance of power in the Pacific.

According to the WSJ, the boomers' missiles are capable of hitting Hawaii and Alaska from the coast of China, while from the mid-Pacific the vessels could target the continental US.

Chinese boomers can also be outfitted with nuclear ballistic weaponry. It's a possible replay of the Cold War dynamic in which boomers served a seaborne nuclear deterrent for the US and the USSR. This was an important element of the rival powers' nuclear architecture: hard-to-detect sea-faring submarines can launch an attack even if a country's land-based military facilities are wiped out in a nuclear first strike.

China's leaders clearly realizes the importance of an under-sea missile capability. According to a commentary that China's navy chief Admiral Wu Senghli wrote in a Communist Party magazine, the boomers are "a trump card that makes our motherland proud and our adversaries terrified. It is a strategic force symbolizing great-power status and supporting national security."

For Vice Amd. Robert Thomas, the commander of the US Seventh Fleet, the boomers and China's nuclear attack submarines convey a clear message to Beijing's potential rivals.

Thomas told the WSJ that the vessels "say that, 'We're a professional navy, we're a professional submarine force, and we're global. We're no longer just a coastal-water submarine force."

PLA China naval submarine navy
A Chinese Naval submarine docks at the Ngong Shuen Chau Naval Base in Hong Kong.

The professionalism and capabilities of the Chinese submarine force may alter the US's calculations as the Navy undergoes its "pivot to Asia." And China is currently locked in a host of maritime border disputes with US allies in the region.

In the East China Sea, China and Japan both lay claim to the Senkaku Islands. Although the island chain is uninhabited, the region is thought to have large natural gas reserves and plentiful fisheries. The islands are administered by Japan, and China has recently began allowing large numbers of fisherman to go to the islands in an attempt to achieve de facto control over the area.

In the South China Sea, China has pushed its maritime boundaries into areas in contention with Vietnam, the Philippines, and Malaysia. This contention has already led to confrontations between China, the Philippines, and Vietnam.

The US is treaty-bound to defend Japan and the Philippines if either country is attacked. Any maritime confrontation thus has the potential - however vague, at the moment - to trigger a wider conflict between China and the US. A Chinese military professor has even warned that these maritime disputes could potentially lead to the next world war.

As it is, any maritime conflict could lead to the US having to choose between abandoning the defensive treaties that formed the backbone of American strategy in Asia, or risking a larger confrontation with China's ever-growing military.

China's new submarines are a continuation of China's attempts to match their military capabilities to the US's. But it isn't the only area where the two are competing. China and the US are locked in an arms race in development of hypersonic missiles and the world's first aircraft carrier-borne stealth jets. And China is trying to build up its first air craft carrier group, although it's had some technical difficulties so far.


http://news.usni.org/2014/10/27/china-i ... r-exercise
China and Iran Deepening Naval Ties, Iran Calls for Bilateral Blue Water Exercise
By: Sam LaGrone
Published: October 27, 2014

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Will » 29 Oct 2014 03:24

If this: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.co.uk/2014/1 ... ision.html is true then its the best news yet. Hope L&T wins the tender for the simple reason that the IN and GOI can hold a private company responsible. Neither the GOI or the IN can hold a public sector yard responsible even if they try :( . L&T is the lead integrator for the nuclear subs in all but name anyway. The monopoly of DPSUS has to be broken if the Indian MIC has to get anywhere and this govt seems to be in favour of doing that. Giving the private sector just one sub to build makes no sense at all neither from a financial or logical stand point. From what is happening looks like L&T will be handed the submarine building sector while others like Pipavav and ABG will get the surface ship building part. India definitely needs a second submarine line to build up numbers and this should preferably be in the private sector. Follow on Scorpenes should be ordered to keep the MDL line running. The IN needs at least 2 subs per year to be put to sea, for 10 years at least, to bring up force levels to a decent level.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby nachiket » 29 Oct 2014 06:55

Philip wrote:As Nachi said,good enough" is what we need not the "best" which will take years to fructify.Why the offer of two Amurs immediately was spurned in favour of the 6 75-Is which will appear only post 2020 is a mystery.IN [b]Amurs with VLS for BMos and Nirbhay will be markedly different from the ones China will get [/b]and the Russians always cautious about PRC illegal copies,give the Chinese inferior versions of their wares

Amur with VLS is a paper sub just like any other VLS equipped SSK design out there. We need to let go of this fetish of having VLS on our SSK's. This will end badly. Just like the MRCA. If IN really wants to increase its sub fleet quickly, best option is to go for six more Scorpenes but with AIP. Rest of the configuration can be same as that of the Scorpenes we are already building. No tenders. No lengthy evaluation process. The basic scorpene design has already been found acceptable before, so why waste more time?

Spend the money saved on building more P-28s or buy ASW helos to counter the growing number of Chinese subs. VLS equipped SSKs aren't going to give us any advantage in ASW anyway. It might actually weaken the hydrodynamic capabilities and top speed of the subs and make them worse in hunter-killer role.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 29 Oct 2014 07:24

any weight increase will surely affect the top speed.

but i am not too sure how survivable AIP subs will be in the shallow waters near Cheen as the avg depth is supposed to 75-100m only. a SSN has a clear 10knot advantage in submerged speed if it needs to escape or chase targets.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby alexis » 29 Oct 2014 09:11

It is a good plan to construct subs with VLS if the IP for the same is held by India. Since it may take some time, we can place the follow on order for Scorpenes (with or without AIP) to hold the numbers when kilos are retired. We would need them in numbers to deter China. Building SSNs in large numbers is going to be a challenge till we master the thorium fuel cycle due to paucity of uranium/plutonium in India.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby narmad » 29 Oct 2014 09:31

nachiket wrote:VLS equipped SSKs aren't going to give us any advantage in ASW anyway. It might actually weaken the hydrodynamic capabilities and top speed of the subs and make them worse in hunter-killer role.


Yes, i am not sure why everybody wants VLS capable SSK ? For Pakistan ???

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 29 Oct 2014 11:47

clearly a indian surface action group/carrier cannot foray into the south and east china seas against the combined force of PLAAF+PLANAF+PLAN - only 1 navy is capable of doing that and its not india.

neither we have long range bombers with air launched cruise missiles.

failing that in a conventional war, they can sit in tibet (their buffer zone) and POUND all of north and central india with planes, ballistic and cruise missiles while we would just be able to reach out and hit a few bases in tibet in return.

the only way to impose a cost in terms of economy and H&D on beijing would be take out some crucial economic targets on the east coast in full glare of media like power plants, coal train yards, POL plants, some naval bases, electric distribution grid.

so about the only thing that can contribute a token weight behind this cause would be submarines armed with LACMs. hence the need for even our new SSK to have some LACM capability. it gives our war planners and leadership an option in the chessgame else be perennially on the defensive.

let say we sink in 36 Nirbhays from 5 subs in a co-ordinated attack and they escape to the east and then sink a couple PLAN ships before heading home via indonesia. sure Khan can probably throw some 500 thawks without breaking into a sweat but in H&D terms who loses more face - being smacked by the kala gorilla is not a shame, it is expected....but being smacked by the cheeky village yindu monkey next door is gotta burn them bad

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 29 Oct 2014 11:51

we dont need big SSK to deal with TSPN. LRMP ac and P28 types are plenty enough for this 3 subs.

after the surface fleet we can send a few planes to clean them up.

TSP is a non-issue in the naval sense. stop worrying even 1% over it.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Oct 2014 12:58

I disagree, we need air and sea dominance in number of hours with Pakistan, so we need capabilities to complety destroy thier naval airm and subs in no time, we cannot afford anther Khukri.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 29 Oct 2014 13:20

we already have sea dominance wrt TSP and the scorpene's are going to make it even harder for them.
air dominance is another topic.

I dont see how a huge 4000t VLS armed SSK is going to help in sinking the TSPN and policing its coast any more than a kilo or scorpene can. all 3 need the cover of fighters and AEW on top ensure PN Orions do not have flying time.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kmc_chacko » 29 Oct 2014 20:03

srai wrote:
kmc_chacko wrote:IN should go for 6 + 6 (additional) Amur 1650 with additional 6 Scorpene's 12 Amur + 12 Scorpene might reduced stress on underwater force of IN. Any tech aquired from these procurements should be used for future Indigenous conventional & Nuclear subs.


IMO, an ideal path would be something like this:
  1. 6 x P-75 Scorpene SSK w/ TOT
  2. 6 x follow on P-75 indigenised Scorpene w/ large percentage of 'Made in India / Designed in India' components
  3. 6 x P-75I SSK w/ TOT
  4. 6 x follow on P-75I indigenised version w/ technologies from both P-75 and P-75I and 'Made in India / Designed in India' components



correct :D

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby narmad » 29 Oct 2014 20:30

Singha wrote:let say we sink in 36 Nirbhays from 5 subs in a co-ordinated attack and they escape to the east and then sink a couple PLAN ships before heading home via indonesia. sure Khan can probably throw some 500 thawks without breaking into a sweat but in H&D terms who loses more face - being smacked by the kala gorilla is not a shame, it is expected....but being smacked by the cheeky village yindu monkey next door is gotta burn them bad

Since we have to be in south china sea to target the east cost, for an SSK {even with AIP and cold launch}, wouldn't it be a very high risk {suicide} mission?
Under the safety of Andaman and Nicobar islands, we need a 3K Cruise missile.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 29 Oct 2014 22:24

srai wrote:IMO, an ideal path would be something like this:
  1. 6 x P-75 Scorpene SSK w/ TOT
  2. 6 x follow on P-75 indigenised Scorpene w/ large percentage of 'Made in India / Designed in India' components
  3. 6 x P-75I SSK w/ TOT
  4. 6 x follow on P-75I indigenised version w/ technologies from both P-75 and P-75I and 'Made in India / Designed in India' components

We definitely don't need 24 conventional subs. 12 conventional subs, 8 nuclear subs plus some boomers are more than sufficient.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 29 Oct 2014 22:28

Singha wrote:any weight increase will surely affect the top speed.

but i am not too sure how survivable AIP subs will be in the shallow waters near Cheen as the avg depth is supposed to 75-100m only. a SSN has a clear 10knot advantage in submerged speed if it needs to escape or chase targets.

+1
Any sub carrying Nirbhay in VLS (around 8-12 at least) will have to be pretty darned big. I don't see any sense in building massive conventional subs.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kmc_chacko » 29 Oct 2014 23:00

saurabh.mhapsekar wrote:
srai wrote:IMO, an ideal path would be something like this:
  1. 6 x P-75 Scorpene SSK w/ TOT
  2. 6 x follow on P-75 indigenised Scorpene w/ large percentage of 'Made in India / Designed in India' components
  3. 6 x P-75I SSK w/ TOT
  4. 6 x follow on P-75I indigenised version w/ technologies from both P-75 and P-75I and 'Made in India / Designed in India' components

We definitely don't need 24 conventional subs. 12 conventional subs, 8 nuclear subs plus some boomers are more than sufficient.


We need 18-24 conventional subs to control 3 seas & we need 10-12 nuclear subs to counter any threat from Chinese and 7-8 boomers to hit back.

Don't forget
1. We have large maritime boundary to control & protect
2. We need to protect our commercial sea lanes, we are most dependent on Oil imports.
3. We need to counter Pakis threat with Chinese support
4. We need to secure Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal & Indian Ocean from String of pearls of China
5. We will have 3 AC in future and we will need subs to protect it
6. We need to make China feel that we can hit back if they cross their limits.
7. We need to protect our interests & Exclusive economic zones

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srin » 29 Oct 2014 23:03

Singha wrote:clearly a indian surface action group/carrier cannot foray into the south and east china seas against the combined force of PLAAF+PLANAF+PLAN - only 1 navy is capable of doing that and its not india.

neither we have long range bombers with air launched cruise missiles.

failing that in a conventional war, they can sit in tibet (their buffer zone) and POUND all of north and central india with planes, ballistic and cruise missiles while we would just be able to reach out and hit a few bases in tibet in return.

the only way to impose a cost in terms of economy and H&D on beijing would be take out some crucial economic targets on the east coast in full glare of media like power plants, coal train yards, POL plants, some naval bases, electric distribution grid.

so about the only thing that can contribute a token weight behind this cause would be submarines armed with LACMs. hence the need for even our new SSK to have some LACM capability. it gives our war planners and leadership an option in the chessgame else be perennially on the defensive.

let say we sink in 36 Nirbhays from 5 subs in a co-ordinated attack and they escape to the east and then sink a couple PLAN ships before heading home via indonesia. sure Khan can probably throw some 500 thawks without breaking into a sweat but in H&D terms who loses more face - being smacked by the kala gorilla is not a shame, it is expected....but being smacked by the cheeky village yindu monkey next door is gotta burn them bad


What you need is an SSN. You are at the limit of abilities for an SSK (unless you have friendly bases somewhere).

As soon as the missiles are detected, all the PLAN ASW assets will be activated to patrol the general launch area and likely escape routes towards the west. An SSK even with AIP will have to surface after a few days and that is a huge risk. An SSN will have the endurance to take the long way around to escape or even lurk.

Also, submarines are generally lone-wolves. They operate by stealth and that works best when they don't have to co-ordinate with each other. Half a dozen missiles per sub is very poor risk-benefit ratio. You need to have a lot more. Well, perhaps not as much as a Ohio class (154 tomahawks :shock: ) SSGN but definitely a couple of dozen. An Arihant-sized small sub with the VLS tubes repurposed for Nirbhay is what you want.

SSKs are for Bay of Bengal and for Arabian sea. You want to play in the Pacific, then you need an SSN.

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Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Oct 2014 01:12

Here is my take after some headscratching -

Singhagaru is correct - the whole point behind this massive SSK is to be able to carry out some useful strikes in ECS/SCS. And here are the reasons to go this route:

- IN is not looking for pure hunter-killer type SSN/SSK; the current force with upgrades (U-214s, Kilos, Scorpenes) augmented every now and again with the same types, should be enough to deal with threats close by, esp. with P8s types coming in. Expect a couple of quick Kilo purchases when Putin comes calling in Dec.
- IN's requirement is more of an SSGN. Go close enough to lob a few Nirbhays (but far enough to avoid serious takkar with PLAN assets) and then disappear.
- We don't have the SSGNs required to go in there quietly enough
- The Akulas are probably without anything greater than Klub and no VLS
- The Arihant is likely not quiet enough to be converted into SSN/SSGN type
- Battery powered diesels are inherently quieter than nuke reactor powered boats although slower. But the idea is to emphasize stealth - not speed since engagement with enemy is to be avoided afap.
- Ideal would be to go with Arihant design hull + VLS and powerpack from Fra, but unlikely that any OEM will support this


Considering all of the above, only recourse is to build a huge SSK with a partner who has and is willing to share the quiet diesel engine tech. My guess is the winner here will be DCNS with an Ocean type design. IN is charting new waters here but has no viable alternative. And that explains the price tag.


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