Project 75I - It Begins

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62206
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 24 Apr 2018 13:24

>>Therefore the excellent experience with German U- boats

the U209 was a good class of boat, exported widely and still in prime service in its dolphin class format. but just like MTBF went south with the newer mercs/bmws trying to pack in power operated everything and 100 switches and geegaws into their earlier fine drivetrain and transmission, the same happened to the U212/214 and none have reported a trouble free time.

we should come up with our own 3000t SSK design using either mitsubishi, electric boat, hdw or dcn as a technical help. the koreans are doing that with the slow moving KSS-3 project having absorbed the U212. baksheesh could be having german powerplant (pietsticks) and other gear onboard - atleast for the first tranche.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49549
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby ramana » 25 Apr 2018 06:25


Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3106
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakkaji » 25 Apr 2018 06:34

ramana wrote:https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/status/988768043835604992?s=19


This was the original intent of the P75 when it was first mooted years ago - 6 Russian subs by L&T, and 6 Western subs by MDL.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4993
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Rakesh » 25 Apr 2018 22:24

X-Post from the Indian Nuclear Submarines thread...

Thales looking at role in India’s nuclear submarine project
https://gulfnews.com/news/asia/india/th ... -1.2209632

The government had last year also begun the process to acquire six conventionally-powered advanced stealth submarines at a cost of around Rs600 billion ($9.04 billion) under project P-75 (I). “We can equip any kind of submarines including nuclear-powered submarines. We are equipping nuclear submarines in France,” the senior executive of Europe’s largest defence electronics company told PTI in an interview. Six Scorpene-class submarines are currently being built under ‘Project 75’ of the Indian Navy. The submarines, designed by French firm Naval Group, are being built by the Mazagon Dock Limited in Mumbai. The project P-75 (I) will be a follow-on for Project 75.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6080
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 25 Apr 2018 22:36

ramana wrote:https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/status/988768043835604992?s=19

Amur again. The Russians haven't managed to build a single Amur yet. With or without AIP. Its predecessor, the Lada class also was a failure. They are now working on some new design called Kalina.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3106
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Kakkaji » 26 Apr 2018 05:54

If the Amur is not satisfactory, then why not just let L&T build new Kilos with Russian collaboration?

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6080
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 26 Apr 2018 06:05

There is no Kilo design with AIP as of now to my knowledge.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62206
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2018 06:39

We should work with rubin for a upsized kilo with 1.5 instead of 2 hulls maybe 25% larger with a bigger sonar setup and torpedo room . Use indigenous stuff to max

Its a proven design like u209 and worth playing it to learn the big game

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20735
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Prem » 26 Apr 2018 06:52

But did not Roos sell Kilo design to Cheen?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62206
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 26 Apr 2018 07:25

Well the scorpene data had also been sold

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 26 Apr 2018 09:19

The Amur design as a basis to incorporate Indian reqs. like our desi AIP, BMos,Nirbhay, sonars, etc., could be a winner.It is supposed to be more automated and capability- wise better than a Kilo.Also cheaper.We should take a long hard look asap at the offer from Rubin.Could also ask about the new Kalina.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6080
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 26 Apr 2018 22:48

Philip wrote:The Amur design as a basis to incorporate Indian reqs. like our desi AIP, BMos,Nirbhay, sonars, etc., could be a winner.It is supposed to be more automated and capability- wise better than a Kilo.Also cheaper.

:rotfl: Wake me up when they actually manage to build one. And if the Amur is so great why are they working on the Kalina instead?

Even in the Lada class, they found a lot of problems after the first boat was built. Since then they have apparently done a redesign, but no new boats completed. Most likely they have abandoned it completely and focusing on the Kalina while trying (and failing) to sell the Amur snake oil abroad.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6080
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 26 Apr 2018 22:51

Singha wrote:We should work with rubin for a upsized kilo with 1.5 instead of 2 hulls maybe 25% larger with a bigger sonar setup and torpedo room . Use indigenous stuff to max

Its a proven design like u209 and worth playing it to learn the big game

If DRDO manages to get its AIP system operational, a modernized Kilo with that AIP would be great. What you are asking for will require a lot more changes and time and funding.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 49549
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby ramana » 26 Apr 2018 23:35

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote:https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/status/988768043835604992?s=19

Amur again. The Russians haven't managed to build a single Amur yet. With or without AIP. Its predecessor, the Lada class also was a failure. They are now working on some new design called Kalina.



nachiket, Can you please post the picture here/

Thanks.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6080
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 26 Apr 2018 23:53

ramana wrote:
nachiket wrote:Amur again. The Russians haven't managed to build a single Amur yet. With or without AIP. Its predecessor, the Lada class also was a failure. They are now working on some new design called Kalina.



nachiket, Can you please post the picture here/

Thanks.

I haven't been able to find one saar. Plenty of reports on the web saying the Russians are building it. But I didn't find cutaway drawings or anything yet.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 27 Apr 2018 13:22

Watch them here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfn-s6_KcFk

Construction of the class has resumed,but for the IN,a boat with a BMos module and AIP is essential.Whether the design of which models showing a BMos module with 10 silos, is available and meets other IN parameters is the big Q. If there's going to be some time delay until our desi AIP system arrives,or an Ru preferred,the immediate way to go is to go in for 6+ German U-boats with their current proven AIP system,which in the future can be replaced with our own AIP module when perfected. Instead of a contest which would take time,the GOI should treat the deal as a follow on to the exg. U-boats in service,in a G-to-G deal.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62206
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Singha » 28 Apr 2018 08:10

Instead of the mythical bmos plug why not go for oscar type inclined tubes outside the inner hull in a kiloish design?

Nirbhay is designed fir torpedo tubes we need a double size torpedo room for more weapons

A classical hunter sub does not need to be more than arihant size even with nuclear propulsion

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 28 Apr 2018 12:15

Then acquire more Akulas! They carry 40 weapons and modified ones have the possibility of VLS silos too. An Oscar design does not give you a cylindrical hull if you study the design carefully and will not be as silent as a sub with an albacoore type hull.One can adopt a twin tube design as on Israeli Dolphin boats )German) which are for their N-tipped cruise missiles. The great strength of Sov/Ru boats is that their hulls can last for 50 years,why so many unfinished boats,hulls,and legacy boats have been modernised,and utilised in new boat construction. But any diesel boat would be totally new.If we standardise upon the AIP system,say the German for example,the same system could be used aboard any Ru boat too. Ru civilian aircraft are flying with western engines,helos with French ,etc.

But the issue is acquiring two lines of conv, AIP boats.One an HUK dedicated to dealing with enemy subs in the IOR and the other a multi-purpose sub,AIP,with land attack capabilities such as BMos/Nirbhay.which can foray into the ICS too,from support in the ANC.This would give the subs a 30 day patrol time in the ICS in support of any SSGNs also on patrol there.If the subs have access to Vietnamese ports even better!

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6080
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby nachiket » 01 May 2018 02:58

Philip wrote:If we standardise upon the AIP system,say the German for example,the same system could be used aboard any Ru boat too. Ru civilian aircraft are flying with western engines,helos with French ,etc.

:rotfl: Why would we choose the AIP system independently from the submarine unless it is an indigenous system? Otherwise it is far simpler and cheaper to just buy the German sub with their own AIP already integrated. It is not our fault that the Russians do not have a functioning AIP system integrated on any of their subs.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 01 May 2018 18:02

Exactly what I'm saying!
"If we standardise upon the AIP system,say the German for example"...

Our DRDO system hasn't yet been tested aboard any sub,or even an UW barge and to place faith in this as yet untested system is like saying that LCA-2 will fly with the "Super-Kaveri"! What I implied was that a tested and proven AIP system could be used for more than one sub type.The German system could be used aboard an Ru sub,or retrofitted to our Scorpenes,etc.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2226
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby JTull » 01 May 2018 22:59

Philip wrote:Exactly what I'm saying!
"If we standardise upon the AIP system,say the German for example"...

Our DRDO system hasn't yet been tested aboard any sub,or even an UW barge and to place faith in this as yet untested system is like saying that LCA-2 will fly with the "Super-Kaveri"! What I implied was that a tested and proven AIP system could be used for more than one sub type.The German system could be used aboard an Ru sub,or retrofitted to our Scorpenes,etc.


No AIP system or nuclear reactor in the world was ever tested aboard any sub before it was put the first sub!!

Land based prototypes or nuclear reactor (S-1) at Kalpakkam and AIP module at NMRL are meant to be as close to real as possible.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 13:51

Russia has done just that with the Sarov. It has fielded several exp. boats of which little knowledge is available. They have enough confidence in their N-reactor designs to field new ones straight onto their subs as they've built dozens of N-boats.The DRDO reportedly asked for a kilo from the IN,but due to the acute sub shortage,it demurred,as well as not providing a sub for the sub-launched version of BMos,perfected a few years ago!

Ultimately,the DRDO has to field its AIP system UW.The best method is to use a weaponless barge,which also has aux. diesels. We've used UW pontoons to fire missiles too.Here's a good piece some time ago from IT ,after the second ATV was launched.
However,the handing over of the P-75I project to MDL will kill pvt. industry's chances of sub-building according to this report.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... s/1150991/

Handing over P75(I) submarine project to Mazagon will sound death-knell for private players
The Indian Navy's reported decision to nominate Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) to execute the $8 billion Project-75 India [P-75(I)] to build six advanced submarines has left private contenders gasping for breath.
By: IANS | New Delhi | Published: April 30, 2018 6:35 PM

indian navy, P75 (I) subamarine project, Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd, Reliance Naval, Larsen & Tubro, Make in India, defence ministry, private sector in india, Arun Jaitley The Defence Ministry had thereafter drafted its out-of-the-box Strategic Partnership model by building on recommendations of several expert committees and groups. (Representative image)
The Indian Navy’s reported decision to nominate Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL) to execute the $8 billion Project-75 India [P-75(I)] to build six advanced submarines has left private contenders gasping for breath. The P-75(I) programme was once the biggest rays of hope for the private sector, especially companies like Larsen & Tubro and Reliance Naval that were gearing up for orders under the programme announced in October 2014. The private shipyards — L&T’s at Kattupalli and Reliance Naval’s at Pipavav — currently have turnovers of under Rs 1,000 crore and have slipped into the red.

The private sector in India has less than 5 per cent (about Rs 5,000 crore annually) share of direct orders from the Defence Ministry for manufacturing. “The expectation was that the private sector’s share will rise to almost 25 percent in the next three-four years,” Vice Admiral (Retd) Shekhar Sinha told BTVI. Sinha said the private players should be integrated into the country’s defence manufacturing sector that was liberalised way back in 2001 and opened up participation to not just private players but also to foreign entities. “Make in India is impossible without the participation of the private sector,” said Sinha.

Last May, India cleared a long-awaited policy to push local defence manufacturing by effectively picking industry champions that would tie up with foreign players to make submarines, fighter jets, helicopters and armoured vehicles. The decision came after Prime Minister Narendra Modi vowed to end India’s role as the world’s largest arms importer by asking foreign firms to share technology with local players and then manufacture in India — in return for a slice of the $250 billion analysts claim the country would spend on its armed forces over the next decade.

The government, under the “Strategic Partnership” model, would shortlist and then pick Indian companies to join forces with foreign firms. The winners were guaranteed billions of dollars of orders to incentivise them to manufacture. “For each platform, one private sector strategic partner will be chosen,” then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley had told reporters after a cabinet meeting at that time. “You don’t set up a manufacturing facility if you don’t have any hope of getting orders.”

The Defence Ministry had thereafter drafted its out-of-the-box Strategic Partnership model by building on recommendations of several expert committees and groups. And private players were an integral part of the plan. “Everyone hoped the P75(I) project will come to the private players but it seems that the plan is now shelved,” added Sinha.

Former navy chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat said it was imperative for the government to include private players in defence manufacturing. “I am shocked at the decision. During my tenure I had drawn up a 30-year plan and given it to (the then) Defence Minister. In India, very sadly, the Ministry of Defence and its procurement team hardly understand their business,” Bhagwar told BTVI.


Agreed strategic expert C. Uday Bhaskar, who felt the decision would prove “disastrous” for the country in the long run. “India knows the public sector has not delivered in the defence sector and in the shipbuilding sector, where foreign participation is a must. The private sector was encouraged to get into this sector; many acquired and developed infrastructure so that they can be considered relevant for business from the government. And now we hear that the decision has gone — again — to a PSU known for its delays,” :mrgreen: Bhaskar told BTVI.

Defence manufacturing in India is small and dominated by PSUs, many of which have been criticised for poor performance. Private firms such as Larsen & Toubro, Mahindra Group, Tata Group and recent entrants Reliance Group and Adani Group are trying hard to seek orders. One of the aims of involving private players was to create submarine-building capabilities outside of the state-owned shipyards that were known for cost and time over-runs.

In 2016, the Indian Navy issued a Request for Information (RFI) to six global submarine makers seeking to build six advanced submarines with air-independent propulsion (AIP) technology that enables them stay under water for longer periods. The six companies were ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Naval Group (France), Navantia (Spain), SAAB (Sweden), Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard (Russia and Italy) and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries (Japan). This was around October 2017, when Jaitley headed the Defence Ministry.

The Defence Ministry then drafted Expressions of Interest (EoI) to be issued to the private sector shipyards in India so as to select the local Strategic Partners. But in less than a year’s time, new Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has decided to dump that process. Officials of Indian Navy did not explain reasons for reversing the original plan, first mooted by Manohar Parrikar when he was the Defence Minister.

At a meeting chaired by the Sitharaman in late March, it was decided that the P75(I) programme would not be rolled out under the Strategic Partnership Policy of the Defence Procurement Procedure 2016, as initially decided, and would be handed over to MDL on a “nomination basis”.

The decision, taken less than a month after the visit to India by President Emmanuel Macron, is being viewed as a positive one for the French shipbuilding conglomerate Naval Group, which already has a collaboration with MDL under which it is currently building six Scorpene Class submarines. The first of these has been launched and the rest are to be commissioned by 2020.


Eric Leiderman
BRFite
Posts: 346
Joined: 26 Nov 2010 08:56

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Eric Leiderman » 03 May 2018 00:57

After we built the german subs and discontinued, the whole effort of Make in India was lost.
The trained manpower either retired or went to gulf countries.
If we do not give MDL a new contract to build 3-4 boats the same as above will happen.

What would make sense is if the first 2 boats were built in MDl, with L&T personnel embedded in all aspects of build.
Then the next 4 boats built by L&T

Then final step as has been decided by GOI would be to design and build our own class of submarines using amalgimated knowledge from all sources.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 03 May 2018 19:57

Back to the future! P-75I tender date lapsed and the entire rigmarole of acquisition will have to start over again! Read details in the IN td.MOD working is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma...whatever! One seriously wonders whether it has been infiltrated by the enemy?

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20735
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Prem » 04 May 2018 10:39

SOKO have all we want.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... ines-25671
Forget North Korea: South Korea Could Someday Have Submarines Armed with Nuclear Weapons

. The submarines were gradually “Koreanized,” steadily introducing Korean-made parts with each new boat as they became available. According to the authoritative Combat Fleets of the World, South Korea’s Type 209s are reportedly the quietest of the type ever made due to sound-damping rafting of machinery.The last of the 209s, Lee Eokgi, was commissioned in 2001, making the class between sixteen and twenty-four years old. The Diplomat reports that ROKN plans to upgrade the nine subs with an air independent propulsion system (AIP) to allow the boats to remain submerged longer and flank sonar arrays.South Korea’s second generation diesel electric submarines are another fleet of nine procured under a program known as KSS-II. Again South Korea turned to Germany for a proven design, and Hyundai Heavy Industries, with production equipment provided by the German firm Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft, built nine submarines of the newer Type 214 class. The last, Sin Dol-Seok, commissioned into the ROKN in September of this year and the ROKN should have a fleet of eighteen submarines fully operational by 2019.KSS-II, also known as the Son Won Il–class submarines are 50 percent larger than the Type 209s by displacement, similarly armed and have a crew of forty. The submarines are the first South Korean subs specifically built with air independent propulsion, allowing them to remain submerged for up to two weeks at a time. Built from austenitic steel, the hulls are rated for normal operation at depths of up to 820 feet and up to 1,300 feet in emergencies.Meanwhile, South Korea is forging ahead with third generation submarines, known for now as KSS-III. KSS-III will be Seoul’s first domestically made submarines, though with obvious German influences in the hull design. At 3,750 tons submerged, these ships are three times larger than South Korea’s first generation submarines.One crucial new feature for this new submarine class is the addition of a six cell vertical missile launch system behind the sail. The six cells will be large enough to accommodate a seagoing version of the Hyunmoo-2B ballistic missile. Together with an air independent propulsion system designed into the hull, these submarines can remain quietly underwater for extended periods, providing an invulnerable second strike capability against a North Korea with negligible antisubmarine warfare capabilities.All of this begs the question: will KSS-III someday carry nuclear weapons? Nearly 60 percent of South Koreans believe the country should build its own nuclear arsenal, a clear majority although admittedly a lower percentage than in previous decades. South Korea’s small size—the entire country is just slightly larger than the state of Maine—makes land-based weapons out of the question

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 04 May 2018 15:47

The German AIP system for its U-boats has been here for some time.The IN could've some time ago fitted these onto at least the two last subs built at MDL. I don't think there's much life left in the U-209s, but a new series to replace Scorpene subs at MDL should be swiftly negotiated in a G-to-G deal.We've done a few major similar deals with the US and Israel, why not one with the Germans for a new AIP U-boat?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15167
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Karan M » 16 May 2018 01:53

Its all about money. Forget about new fancy procurements till 2019.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Postby Philip » 27 May 2018 21:54

Please read BK's latest on the P-75I."How defence monies are squandered " and the MP roadmap abandoned after he left.L&T best suited to build subs where our two desi N-subs have 80 and 85% local content while the great Scorpene has only 35% and costs upwards of $500M a pop when our Kilos cost us just $100M!

BK says that the current approach to the P-75I will cost us billions and keep us in the clutches of firang OEMs.Ideally, we could've acquired the German U-214s to follow on our U-209s ( whic I've also been advocating) and got L&T which have superior sub design capabilities than any DPSU, having mastered the art of building our first N subs, they being the principal component supplier.

Read his full piece for more details.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ravishankar and 34 guests