Project 75I - It Begins

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
member_28722
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 30 Oct 2014 01:17

kmc_chacko wrote:We need 18-24 conventional subs to control 3 seas & we need 10-12 nuclear subs to counter any threat from Chinese and 7-8 boomers to hit back.

Don't forget
1. We have large maritime boundary to control & protect
2. We need to protect our commercial sea lanes, we are most dependent on Oil imports.
3. We need to counter Pakis threat with Chinese support
4. We need to secure Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal & Indian Ocean from String of pearls of China
5. We will have 3 AC in future and we will need subs to protect it
6. We need to make China feel that we can hit back if they cross their limits.
7. We need to protect our interests & Exclusive economic zones

Early apologies for the long post.... :)

IMHO, we would need a big sub force if threats to all the above were subs only.

1. A SOSUS/SURTASS type surveillance between A&N-Varsha-south tips-Lakshadweep-Kadamba-Bhuj protects it better and acts as a massive defensive force multiplier. Once PLAN subs are detected, we can hit them with P8 under cover of land based assets. We can also block Mallacca for a long time with a few nuke subs backed by Carrier Group. This will be our Navy's primary role in a war with China. We will definitely not send them in South China sea in range of PLAN air groups and PLAAF.
2. Commercial sea lanes need to be covered by nukes. AIP can extend conventional submarine, not give it endurance of a nuke boat.
3. 12 Conventional subs is already an overkill for TSP, which is where I hope we use them.
4. OT alert: Chicom String of Pearls, IMVHO, is a paper dragon for psy warfare. Any military assets within easy striking range of our airforce is essentially lost to China. They can monitor us but they are of no practical use in an actual war. We can monitor them with nuke boats and satellites. No need for bases or additional vulnerability.
5. CSGs are best protected by nuke boats, diesels can't match the stay away time of a carrier group. Also most CSGs in the world deploy max 2 submarines with the group. The protection of the carrier is responsibility of surface assets. It would better to build more Kolkatta and Shivaliks. 3 Kol + 3 Shiv + 3 Tal + 2 nuke boats is enough escort for a CSG.
6. Also requires more nuke boats ... or more precisely boomers
7. #1 for nearshore, nukes for distant.

No VLS equipped conventional boats exists (Question: Did Project 629 / Golf have VLS). We have already built a VLS equipped nuclear boat which can launch ballistic missiles. USN converted Ohio class from a 24-Trident to 154 Tomahawk. Given that K-4 has 1/2 the range of Trident and Nirbhay is same and THawk, we should be (in theory) do a 1:3 and since Aridhaman already can launch 8 K-4, we already have the expertise to build such a sub.

I agree we may need to crank up the nuke boat count to 12 maybe more, but this is beyond 2030. In the near future by 2030) the below is more than enough.
6--> Scorpene (already on track for this)
6 --> P75I (preferably improved Scorpene)
2 --> Chakra 2
4-6 --> Arihant class with cm
4-6 --> Arihant class with bm (already on track for this)
We have Kilos till the nuke boats become operational in numbers.
And finally, once we have gained the experience of building a few nuke boats, we will not go back to conventional boats.

Edit: Corrected VLS info

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6809
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby nachiket » 30 Oct 2014 03:39

Cain Marko wrote:- IN's requirement is more of an SSGN. Go close enough to lob a few Nirbhays (but far enough to avoid serious takkar with PLAN assets) and then disappear.
- We don't have the SSGNs required to go in there quietly enough
- The Akulas are probably without anything greater than Klub and no VLS
- The Arihant is likely not quiet enough to be converted into SSN/SSGN type

If Arihant isn't quiet enough to get close enough to China to fire the 1000km Nirbhay, it definitely isn't quiet enough to go on deterrence patrols with the 700km range K-15. Boomers have a greater need to be quiet than any other type of sub because they are usually the hunted, never the hunters.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66517
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2014 07:55

I wonder how long it would take for a ohio to fire off 154 tomahawks. this has never remotely been tested. given the size of the sub and small size of thawk they might be able to fire multiple in parallel or atleast in ripple fire mode....still a good 10 mins of work imo....not healthy if airborne assets are lurking. and the radar will light up big if 154 thawk swarm is detected emerging from a location.

there is video on youtube of a soviet ssbn firing all its 16 of so ICBMs....and for that they need one abortive attempt and a 2 yr training cycle. it has never been done before or since. the captain rose to a very high position.

its probably a lot safer to restrict one self to say 6 shots and then move out.

member_28840
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28840 » 30 Oct 2014 10:05

Singha wrote:I wonder how long it would take for a ohio to fire off 154 tomahawks. this has never remotely been tested. given the size of the sub and small size of thawk they might be able to fire multiple in parallel or atleast in ripple fire mode....still a good 10 mins of work imo....not healthy if airborne assets are lurking. and the radar will light up big if 154 thawk swarm is detected emerging from a location.

there is video on youtube of a soviet ssbn firing all its 16 of so ICBMs....and for that they need one abortive attempt and a 2 yr training cycle. it has never been done before or since. the captain rose to a very high position.

its probably a lot safer to restrict one self to say 6 shots and then move out.


hi, would it be possible for you to post a link of this video? not able to find it with search.

Imagine what would happen if even one of the missiles malfunctions and crashes back down near the sub? imagine a ginormous depth charge. even if it was a few hundred yards away, the massive concussion wave from the resulting explosion would tear the sub apart, at the very least damage is badly enough to not be able to continue its mission.

A risk like that might be acceptable in a full blown nuclear war, when anyone you know is probably dead anyways, but to do something like that in peace time needed balls and a lot of them. good to know that the ruskie captain got to rise high in their navy.

p.s. hello everyone, this is my first post here, been lurking for close to 8 years now on and off.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19855
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2014 10:21

Why the Spanish S-80 variant of the Scorpene must be ruled out for the P-75I.It is flawed,overweight and potentially turning out to be another Collins class disaster.

http://news.usni.org/2014/04/15/spain-a ... ub-program
Spain Asks U.S. for More Help to Fix Flawed Sub

By: Sam LaGrone
April 15, 2014
[quoteIn a recent U.S. visit, the Spanish Secretary of State for Defense Pedro Argüelles asked American officials for more help to correct design problems with its S-80 diesel-electric submarine program.

Argüelles asked the U.S. for “continued cooperation,” with S-80 builder Navantia to “resolve a technological [rough] patch,” in the program, according to readout of his three-day visit by the MoD reported by Jane’s Defence Weekly.

U.S. submarine builder General Dynamics Electric Boat was contracted last year through a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract to help correct a problem with the first-in-class Isaac Peral (S-81) — the first of four boats in the $3.3 billion program.

The submarine was found to be up to 75 tons overweight, according to local press reports.

Last week, Navantia told Jane’s the problem with the submarine should be solved by June, “when it expects to be able to release details about the extent of the redesign, the time needed to sort it out, and the extra costs involved.”

“Among the people Argüelles met during his visit to Washington were the US Acting Deputy Secretary of Defense Christine H Fox and the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisitions, Technology and Logistics Frank Kendall, who is in charge of industrial policy,” reported Jane’s.

Some estimates say correcting the problem could delay Spain’s first operational S-80 submarine by two years from 2015 to 2017.
][/quote]

This means that the sub costs upwards of $800M per sub,absurd when an Akula N-sub lease for 10 years is just $1B.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2997
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 30 Oct 2014 10:22

xave wrote:
Singha wrote:I wonder how long it would take for a ohio to fire off 154 tomahawks. this has never remotely been tested. given the size of the sub and small size of thawk they might be able to fire multiple in parallel or atleast in ripple fire mode....still a good 10 mins of work imo....not healthy if airborne assets are lurking. and the radar will light up big if 154 thawk swarm is detected emerging from a location.

there is video on youtube of a soviet ssbn firing all its 16 of so ICBMs....and for that they need one abortive attempt and a 2 yr training cycle. it has never been done before or since. the captain rose to a very high position.

its probably a lot safer to restrict one self to say 6 shots and then move out.


hi, would it be possible for you to post a link of this video? not able to find it with search.

Imagine what would happen if even one of the missiles malfunctions and crashes back down near the sub? imagine a ginormous depth charge. even if it was a few hundred yards away, the massive concussion wave from the resulting explosion would tear the sub apart, at the very least damage is badly enough to not be able to continue its mission.

A risk like that might be acceptable in a full blown nuclear war, when anyone you know is probably dead anyways, but to do something like that in peace time needed balls and a lot of them. good to know that the ruskie captain got to rise high in their navy.

p.s. hello everyone, this is my first post here, been lurking for close to 8 years now on and off.



@ Singha ..if you have strategic targets , and usually nuke boomers carry strategic nuclear weapons of last resort., its always better to empty of your entire arsenal in one go against an adversary of the caliber of USA. You may never get a chance to use any remaining ones ! .In tactical warfare, if you are operating very close to enemy defenses and using cruise missiles you still would use most of your weapons within the window you get !

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66517
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2014 10:28

and russian slbms were liquid fueled to add to the threat. main issue was continuous and skillful filling of ballast tanks as the 100s of tons of missiles were fired off one after another, and the sub still had to remain level at missile firing depth. not easy for sure.

Operation Behemoth-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Behemoth
actual footage of the launches and crew here - captain SV Yegorov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icsVIJAwit0

tests like these are good to do - not just a test, its a statement...like the SS18.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66517
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2014 10:33

first australia(kockums) had to seek US help to fix the collins.
now navantia crawls to big brother to fix the S80
the U212/U214 had persistent build issues and I believe greece or turkey rejected a couple on that.
japan does not let ANY bad news leak out on its submarine fleet...and they can quietly obtain US help as needed.
problems of russian subs are well documented.

I see a trend here. US makes the best subs and has the best knowledge bank. their subs have survived huge head on collisions on underwater rocks that totalled the composite sonar dome area but the bulkheads held firm and sub recovered under own power.

they must be really good as people who are supposed to be masters of the SSK art are asking for help from a nation that stopped making SSK decades ago!

all others are pretenders to some degree.

member_28840
BRFite
Posts: 109
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28840 » 30 Oct 2014 13:37

Singha wrote:and russian slbms were liquid fueled to add to the threat. main issue was continuous and skillful filling of ballast tanks as the 100s of tons of missiles were fired off one after another, and the sub still had to remain level at missile firing depth. not easy for sure.

Operation Behemoth-2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Behemoth
actual footage of the launches and crew here - captain SV Yegorov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icsVIJAwit0

tests like these are good to do - not just a test, its a statement...like the SS18.


thank you for the links, i enjoyed the video. Somehow i had never heard of this operation before.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19855
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2014 15:54

Read the admiration of the USN for the latest Russian Yasen class in the intl. td. US and Russian subs are the best,though the Brits aren't far behind as far as N-subs are concerned.Only the Russians and French make both N-boats and C-Boats.The PRC ones are rather primitive.
The IN has to find a mix of N-subs ,both SSBNs and SSGNs,plus affordable conventional AIP boats.For littoral warfare in the IOR,dealing with Pak requires SSKs. Hopefully the Scorpenes should do their bit,but we'll have to wait and see once the first one is in the water.

A new improved Yasen is due for delivery in 2016.

http://news.usni.org/2014/10/29/improve ... liver-2016
Improved Russian Nuclear Attack Submarine Kazan to Deliver in 2016
Improved Russian Nuclear Attack Submarine Kazan to Deliver in 2016

By: Dave Majumdar
Published: October 29, 2014
Yasen-class attack submarine.

The Russian Navy is set to take delivery of an improved Project 885M Yasen-class attack submarine in 2016 according to Russian state media. The new vessel, named after the city of Kazan, incorporates many improvements to the lead Project 855 boat, K-329 Severodvinsk, which was commissioned earlier in 2014.

“The first improved Project 885M submarine, the Kazan, will be delivered to the Russian Navy in 2016,” Nikolai Novoselov, deputy general director of the Malakhit design bureau told RIA Novosti on Tuesday.

Kazan will have improved sensors and weapon systems compared to Severodvinsk. It is also likely to be quieter than the original vessel, read the report.

The Russians are incorporating improvements to the Project 855 design because of Severodvinsk’s delayed entry into service. The K-329’s construction had been repeatedly delayed since it was first laid down in 1993. Russia was forced to defer construction of the vessel due to the chaos that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union. As a result of the repeated deferrals, even though Severodvinsk is an impressive attack submarine, many of its systems were obsolete years before the boat ever became operational.

The Russian Navy hopes to procure a minimum of eight Yasen-class attack boats, according to RIA Novosti. Four boats have been ordered thus far with a third vessel, Novosibirsk, having been laid down in July 2013.

Russia is also concurrently building a planned fleet of 10 Project 955 Borei-class ballistic missile submarines to replace the earlier Soviet-era Typhoon and Delta IV classes. Yury Dolgoruky and Alexander Nevsky are reportedly in active service with their complement of 16 Bulava submarine launched ballistic missiles while Vladimir Monomakh is in sea trials.

The fourth vessel of the type, Knyaz Vladimir, which falls under the improved Project 955A-class, was laid down in 2012 and features many improvements. Some reports suggest the modified Borei might carry 20 ballistic missiles rather than 16 like the previous vessels.

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby srin » 30 Oct 2014 16:26

Singha wrote:I wonder how long it would take for a ohio to fire off 154 tomahawks. this has never remotely been tested. given the size of the sub and small size of thawk they might be able to fire multiple in parallel or atleast in ripple fire mode....still a good 10 mins of work imo....not healthy if airborne assets are lurking. and the radar will light up big if 154 thawk swarm is detected emerging from a location.

there is video on youtube of a soviet ssbn firing all its 16 of so ICBMs....and for that they need one abortive attempt and a 2 yr training cycle. it has never been done before or since. the captain rose to a very high position.

its probably a lot safer to restrict one self to say 6 shots and then move out.


And move where, really ? The first thing they would do would be block off all the exit points. See the map - there are only a few viable exits out of SCS/ECS through Indonesia. Then they would have ships and aircraft on patrol from Hainan. Even with AIP, how long can the sub go without needing to snorkel and how far and how fast ? It can't afford to surface at all. Look at the Swedish search for Russian submarine. It went on for days. Only an SS(G)N can escape such an intense search for so many days - it doesn't need to rush through the Malacca straits.

You don't replicate Operation Trident easily. Not in SCS.
Last edited by srin on 30 Oct 2014 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2418
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby abhik » 30 Oct 2014 17:11

I don't think the distance between NE India and most of China and that between south China sea and most of China are much different. 3000km land launched cruise missiles would do the job fine.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19855
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2014 17:22

Chinese subs entering the IOR through the chokepoints could be detected if we put into place out equiv. of a SOSUS system in the A&N region.The Indonesians will have to patrol their chokepoints more vigorously and they have large sub ambitions and should be able to deal with/locate any Chinese subs attempting to ingress into the IOR.Since we have the same concern about the PLAN's ambitions,We could come to an agreement for exchange of intel with them.Years ago they wanted us to build ships for their navy. What is most dangerous for India is the stationing of missiles in Tibet from where they can reach the entire subcontinent.China doesn't have to spare any ICBMs for that purpose. We on the other hand have to develop ICBM both land based and for our SSBNs.The forthcoming test of the canistered A-5 in a BR report indicates that we are addressing the requirement.

member_28722
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 30 Oct 2014 22:43

Singha wrote:I see a trend here. US makes the best subs and has the best knowledge bank. their subs have survived huge head on collisions on underwater rocks that totalled the composite sonar dome area but the bulkheads held firm and sub recovered under own power.

they must be really good as people who are supposed to be masters of the SSK art are asking for help from a nation that stopped making SSK decades ago!

all others are pretenders to some degree.

+1

member_26622
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_26622 » 31 Oct 2014 00:43

I have a few questions as my readings are not supporting this 'Large' non nuclear submarine acquisition at all -

1. Since when did submarines become the best option to take on other submarines. Surface ships, SOSUS type sensors, aerial assets (helicopters+airplanes) seem to be far better over one on one submarine match. >> DING for safe guarding our shores from Paki or Chinese submarines
2. A small footprint submarine (under 2000 tons) will be far more stealthier over larger submarines with same noise level in coastal waters (>3000 tons) >> DING for offensive operations near Paki waters
3. Even the largest non nuke sub cannot get to Chinese waters - forget firing missiles and running back. Firing missiles from IOR in to China can be easily achieved from land anyways >> DING for any China related offensive operations

So what does a large non nuclear submarine do for us? Not have even remotely come across any SSK used for carrying around nuclear missiles.

This acquisition is a riddle - any insights on operational use will be much appreciated.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3480
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Oct 2014 02:26

nachiket wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:- IN's requirement is more of an SSGN. Go close enough to lob a few Nirbhays (but far enough to avoid serious takkar with PLAN assets) and then disappear.
- We don't have the SSGNs required to go in there quietly enough
- The Akulas are probably without anything greater than Klub and no VLS
- The Arihant is likely not quiet enough to be converted into SSN/SSGN type

If Arihant isn't quiet enough to get close enough to China to fire the 1000km Nirbhay, it definitely isn't quiet enough to go on deterrence patrols with the 700km range K-15. Boomers have a greater need to be quiet than any other type of sub because they are usually the hunted, never the hunters.


I don't buy that the arihant will be constrained to 700km slbms, probly not even the first sub of the class. If boomers need silence they are also loners, and don't need to go too close.to.their targets.

Also, while it might be true in general that ssbns need to be quiet, it is not always the case with roosi subs, which might share some.pedigree with the. Arihant. Iirc, the attack subs like akulas and the yasens are considered the quietest of.the roosi boats.

Considering the Russian connection, it might not be a stretch if the Arihant is noisier than an SSN. More relevant perhaps is the fact that this india s first real attempt, and so some uncertainty is likely. Whatever the reason, it is clear that the IN is looking for a multipurpose type boat if not a pure ssgn; if everything is perfect, why not just build Arihant with guided missiles, the specs seem close enough?

member_28722
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 31 Oct 2014 02:27

nik wrote:Not have even remotely come across any SSK used for carrying around nuclear missiles.

Golf Class submarine was probably the only one, retired 25 years ago. One in use today as SLBM test bed (PLAN)

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3480
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Oct 2014 02:40

nik wrote:3. Even the largest non nuke sub cannot get to Chinese waters - forget firing missiles and running back. Firing missiles from IOR in to China can be easily achieved from land anyways >> DING for any China related offensive operations

So what does a large non nuclear submarine do for us? Not have even remotely come across any SSK used for carrying around nuclear missiles.

This acquisition is a riddle - any insights on operational use will be much appreciated.

the acquisition is a bit unconventional for sure, but like said earlier there seems to be an interest in building massive ssks with lacms. The smx ocean concept is supposed to allow for a very similar loadout to a yasen, some 35 odd missiles iirc. Range quoted is more than enough to reach Scs territory. From Ares:

.
Search
ARES
Not just a concept: SMX Ocean from DCNS
by Christina Mackenzie Christina Mackenzie Oct 27, 2014
DCNS, the French naval systems group, revealed the SMX Ocean submarine derived from the Barracuda on the first day of the Euronaval show in the northern suburbs of Paris.

The SMX Ocean is the first of the SMX series to have a name rather than a number (this would be SMX 27 as it is the 27th concept vessel shown by DCNS that traditionally unveils at least one such vessel at every Euronaval exhibition) because it is more than just a concept.

Hervé Guillou, DCNS CEO, explained that SMX Ocean is basically the Barracuda submarine with conventional instead of nuclear propulsion. He said such a vessel could be of interest for Australia's future submarine requirement as it is a large submarine with a very long range of 18,000 nautical miles (33,336km) at 10 knots and has an autonomy of 90 days.
SMX Ocean not only incorporates all the newest technological bricks available, even if some of them are not fully mature, but the 4,700 ton, 100m long submarine could also stock five different types of weapons: torpedoes, anti-surface missiles, anti-air missiles, cruise missiles and mines for a total payload of 34 weapons.
The concept behind SMX Ocean is that it could have a very mixed navigation program: it could sail at an average speed of 14 knots one week, then spend a month on patrol with no snorting period (snorting is when a submarine rises close to the sea surface in order to raise a pipe through which it draws in the air necessary to run its diesel engines that in turn recharge the batteries that power the submarine when it is fully submerged; this process is also sometimes called snorkeling) and then spend another week sailing back to its harbour at 14 knots.
.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4261
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Kartik » 03 Nov 2014 15:49

Cross posting from the International Navies news thread

Just look at the cost of the Soryu built in Japan itself- $22 billion for 10 subs ! And if they were to be built in Australia, the price would be around 36 billion AUD !!

European shipyards face Soryu shaped hurdle to replacing Collins class subs

European companies lobbying to build Australia's next generation of conventionally powered submarines are facing a complex situation that may lack clarity but is awash with speculation.

At stake is a multibillion dollar contract under Project Sea 1000 to construct a yet-to-be determined design and unknown number of replacements for the Royal Australian Navy's (RAN's) six 3,400-tonne Collins-class boats amid what is understood to be a politically driven preference for a Japanese solution.

Sources close to the project say discussions to date involve the construction in Japan of 10 of the 4,000-tonne Soryu class at a cost of about AUD25 billion (USD22 billion) compared to an estimated AUD36 billion for an Australian-designed and -built replacement.


...

In mid-October Defence Minister David Johnston formally asked Japan to investigate possible assistance with the Future Submarine programme - a request coinciding with a visit to Canberra by a delegation from ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), owner of German submarine builder HDW, which is pressing the case for its developmental 4,000-tonne Type 216. TKMS is on the record as pledging to deliver 12 submarines - the number suggested in the 2009 Defence White Paper - for about AUD20 billion.


Meanwhile, earlier in the month Thales CEO Jean-Bernard Levy said the company would team with French submarine builder DCNS should the Abbott government respond to industry calls for a competitive tender: something that Johnston has declined to be drawn on. Defence sources said DCNS would offer a larger version of its Scorpene design.

Following its full takeover in July of Collins-class designer Kockums, Saab was quick to confirm its own readiness not only to involve Australian engineers and technicians in the construction of its 3,000-tonne A26 submarine, but to design a 4,000-tonne variant specifically for Sea 1000.

While the Soryu option would necessarily involve modifications to include the AN/BYG-1 combat management system, Australian-specified sensors, and the Mk 48 Mod 7 CBASS heavyweight torpedo jointly developed by the US and Australia, critics have pointed out that little is known about the class and its performance relative to the potential alternatives.

They have also expressed concern that a Soryu acquisition would place Australia's submarine capability at the mercy, for decades to come, of future shifts in Japan's domestic politics and international relations.



So, do we see some of the possible Western competitors for the P-75I here?
-Type-216 at 4000 tons
-Saab-Kockums with a possible 4000 ton sub or a 3000 ton A26 sub
-DCNS with an enlarged Scorpene

Soryu is very unlikely given that it is an offensive weapon and Japan may be reluctant to allow India to purchase and build them in Indian dockyards..and the price!

TKMS's Type 216 at $17.6 billion for 12 subs works out to $1.46 billion each..and $8.8 billion for 6..which is very close to the Rs 50,000 crores figure being touted around.

To me, the enlarged Scorpene makes most sense without going into any of the deeper details..just on the basis of commonality with the P-75 Scorpenes.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4261
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Kartik » 03 Nov 2014 16:25

Philip wrote:Why the Spanish S-80 variant of the Scorpene must be ruled out for the P-75I.It is flawed,overweight and potentially turning out to be another Collins class disaster.

This means that the sub costs upwards of $800M per sub,absurd when an Akula N-sub lease for 10 years is just $1B.


and then in 10 years we go back to the Russians for another 10 year's lease for $1.something billion. It isn't really that much cheaper when you consider the life span of a diesel sub. Although the capabilities an SSN brings is an altogether different topic.

And in case you missed this, Navantia has apparently resolved the issues with the S-80's balance

Spain comples S-80 submarine redesign work

Navantia has resolved balance problems with the design of the Spanish Navy's new S 80-class submarines that halted the four-boat programme more than a year ago.

The announcement was made by Alberto Garre, president of the Murcia region (where the submarines are in build at state-owned Navantia's Cartagena yard), during a visit to the yard with Navantia's own president, José Manuel Revuelta.

Navantia declined to comment, but industry sources confirmed the remarks to IHS Jane's on 25 September.

Garre also said in his announcement that Navantia is now awaiting approval from the Spanish Ministry of Defence (MoD) to commence building with the required design alterations.



Besides, looking at Australia's Collins class sub replacement program and the astronomical figures being quoted there for the Soryu and Type-216, $800 million sounds less (as ridiculous that itself sounds!) ..$800 million is a cool $600 million lower than the Type-216 being offered by TKMS for the Australian's requirement and it is unproven as well.

the Soryu will cost $2.2 billion each, when built in Japan itself! Add the cost of ToT and just imagine what each will cost to build in India.

koti
BRFite
Posts: 1121
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 22:06
Location: Hyderabad, India

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby koti » 04 Nov 2014 22:50


member_28722
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 04 Nov 2014 23:04

koti wrote:Interesting view on the DCNS Sub
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-thi ... 1652659060

Good, but since its french it will probably cost more than a nuke boat :)

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2290
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 05 Nov 2014 00:02

Is there no 1-3MW small nuke battery/reactor for naval ships?

member_28722
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 05 Nov 2014 00:06

For powering special forces dinghy's? :)
Arihant needs 80MW ....

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2290
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 05 Nov 2014 04:01

No instead of AIP which provide in the range of 0.1 to 0.3 MW.

member_28722
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby member_28722 » 05 Nov 2014 04:54

Do you mean as an auxiliary battery? The only instance where a nuclear battery was suggested for such was by the Canadians. Not sure if it was ever implemented ....

arnabh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 70
Joined: 23 Jan 2010 00:51

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby arnabh » 05 Nov 2014 07:22


Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8055
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Pratyush » 05 Nov 2014 07:43

Think tea kettle reactors. They are small and generate 3 to 5 MW.

Hobbes
BRFite
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Mar 2011 02:59

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Hobbes » 05 Nov 2014 08:53


Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66517
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Singha » 05 Nov 2014 09:59

afaik the 80MW for arihant is sub-optimal for a SSN. the similar sized 688 class uses reactors rated around 120-140MW and so do similar russian subs.
so most likely its submerged top speed(max power draw) is more akin to 25 knots than the 35 knots of the attack submarines.

I assume power need increases non-linearly beyond a point for each knot of extra speed as the drag increases? thats true in cycling(wind resistance) not sure of subs.

this is not necessarily a problem given its SSBN role except in emergency escape sprints.
as long as it has a quiet submerged patrol speed it should be ok for now. the ohios apparently sneak around between 6-9 knots for months.

options for a bigger boat (12xK4, 10000t) if we want to retain and improve current design are two such reactors (volume wastage) or a single bigger reactor of around 140mw.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2290
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 05 Nov 2014 12:32

True, you need big reactors for bigger boats, my suggestion was only for smaller diesels. All this MESMA/AIP stuff is waste. Get high Li-on Batteries and a mini reactor. Have enough juice to go 30/35 knots for a 300/400 kms or tactical maneuvers on battery and go for ever at 5-10 knots on the 3 MW.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2290
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Cybaru » 05 Nov 2014 12:47

Hobbes wrote:An illuminating discussion on tea kettle reactor tech:
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?82844-Tea-kettle-nuclear-submarines!


Thanks for posting this link. Kinda on the same lines.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3218
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Kakkaji » 09 Nov 2014 05:13

Who will bag the Rs 50,000-crore order for six submarines? It's a four-horse race

Detailed article about the various contenders and their prospects for bagging this order.

Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 490
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Ankit Desai » 09 Nov 2014 07:41

Kakkaji wrote:Who will bag the Rs 50,000-crore order for six submarines? It's a four-horse race

Detailed article about the various contenders and their prospects for bagging this order.


I personally feel that order should split in to two and go to two ship yards one to private ship yard L&T and another to public HSL.

-Ankit

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16761
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Rahul M » 09 Nov 2014 08:36

Kakkaji wrote:Who will bag the Rs 50,000-crore order for six submarines? It's a four-horse race

Detailed article about the various contenders and their prospects for bagging this order.

as per the article India has something called sishukumar class submarine. :rotfl:

also one akura-11. :shock:

did I mention about the kalvarl class (also known as scorpene) we are making ?

clearly, inspired by the topic, the reporter is setting new depth records. :wink:

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2997
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby kit » 09 Nov 2014 10:36

If high end Li battery tech is available , why not start replacing the batteries in the kilos..could give them better performance ? ..then scale up ?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19855
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Philip » 09 Nov 2014 16:37

It's not who will build it but what is going to be built that is more important. Without selecting the design identifying the yard is speculative.The controversy taking place in Oz reg. their follow on to the Collins class, with the Europeans demanding entry tkts to thwart the Japanese is an interesting parallel.Mega-sized conventional AIP sub designs seem to be the future flavour.Their capabilities however have yet to be proven as as of now there is no 4Kt cv sub in service.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2418
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby abhik » 09 Nov 2014 20:33

How long does it take to recharge the proposed Li-ion batteries (AIP) systems out in the sea? Or can they only be charged at the base?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1379
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Nov 2014 21:00

Kakkaji wrote:Who will bag the Rs 50,000-crore order for six submarines? It's a four-horse race

Detailed article about the various contenders and their prospects for bagging this order.


From the article:-
Ironically, one of the seven shipyards shortlisted for this order, Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL), isn't quite enthused about this order and almost sees it as a distraction. That may be because GSL has been preparing to build mine countermeasures vessels, or MCMVs, which are ships designed to locate and destroy mines.

GSL chairman Shekhar Mital is clear about his goals when he says: "Since 2005, GSL has been preparing to be a manufacturer of minesweepers. Indian Navy now has only four or five old minesweepers and is in need of new vessels. GSL was nominated for this and Rs 300 crore has been spent for modernization and we are waiting for MCMV orders. For that reason, we will not be able to look at submarines." So far, GSL has specialised in offshore patrol vessels.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst


The man's got a point. Public sector yard or not, the sunk costs need to be recovered before more money is sunk in.

amitvora
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Project 75I- It Begins

Postby amitvora » 09 Nov 2014 21:03

Cybaru wrote:True, you need big reactors for bigger boats, my suggestion was only for smaller diesels. All this MESMA/AIP stuff is waste. Get high Li-on Batteries and a mini reactor. Have enough juice to go 30/35 knots for a 300/400 kms or tactical maneuvers on battery and go for ever at 5-10 knots on the 3 MW.


The weight of the batteries would be counterproductive to what it is aimed for. If you are going to look for batteries, then look for other alternatives, such as zinc ion batteries or new techs that use Titanium Oxide for batteries.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mappunni, MeshaVishwas and 13 guests