Indian Military Helicopters

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Avarachan
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Avarachan »

srai wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Excellent posts.

I am in favour of making a gyan only thread for Vivek sir's analysis. On the lines of the Kaveri gyan thread by Maitya sahab. It will be strictly moderated, and is meant to be used by agyanis only for reference.
This is where a BR Wiki would be nice instead of a forum thread. Forums are great for discussions and compiling information but Wiki is better for organizing and rendering that information for consumption.
+1
nash
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by nash »

@CNBCTV18Live · 22m 22 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: Navy HQ Sought Presentations By Cos On Proposed Contract

@CNBCTV18Live · 22m 22 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: Cos In Talks W/Airbus, Agusta Westland For Joint Bidding

@CNBCTV18Live · 23m 23 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: Indian Cos Seeking To Tie Up With Foreign Cos For Joint Bid

@CNBCTV18Live · 24m 24 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: PSUs Like HAL May Also Bid For Naval Utility Helicopters

@CNBCTV18Live · 24m 24 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: Indian Cos Like Anil Ambani- Led Reliance May Bid

@CNBCTV18Live · 24m 24 minutes ago
Exclusive Sources Say: Indian Cos Like Tata Grp, Mah Grp Interested In Contract

CNBC-TV18 @CNBCTV18Live · 25m 25 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: Indian Navy To Buy 100 Light Utility Helicopters

CNBC-TV18 @CNBCTV18Live · 25m 25 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: Total Contract Likely To Be Worth Around $1.5 Bn

CNBC-TV18 @CNBCTV18Live · 26m 26 minutes ago
CNBC-TV18 Exclusive Sources Say: Indian Cos May Bid For Naval Utility Helicopters Contract
Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Kartik »

Superb analysis Vivek Ahuja saab! Harkens back to the old days of BRF where posts of substance abounded.
DexterM
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by DexterM »

Could we consider add these outstanding articles to the main site? Perhaps we could label the series - Understanding Indian Military Rotary Craft.

Instead of just the wiki, which might not be referenced as often (or we could also make sure the articles are cross-referenced as "See Also: " section.
prabhug
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by prabhug »

This documentary on a al-qeada ambush.This gives us a idea how would have been kargil war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnZH7PfekSM
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Rahul M »

Avarachan wrote:
srai wrote: This is where a BR Wiki would be nice instead of a forum thread. Forums are great for discussions and compiling information but Wiki is better for organizing and rendering that information for consumption.
+1
all you need to do is contribute to this http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Bharat-rakshak_Wiki

it has been around for 3-4 years.
vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by vivek_ahuja »

New helicopter analysis article is up on the special dhaga:

Why the Chinook is efficient and the Mi-26 is a heavy-lifting guzzler

Pliss to visit and read. 8)

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by JTull »

I wonder if instead of buying Firescout platform we can ask Northrop Grumman to integrate it on LUH?
chaitanya
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by chaitanya »

Anil Ambani's Reliance Infrastructure to bid for military chopper contracts worth over $3 billion
Sources said that Reliance Infrastructure has tied up with a European manufacturer through one of its subsidiaries and has responded to a request for information (RFI) by the Indian Navy.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

In vertical limit movie a stripped down
Tspa uh1 dropped 5 people and backpacks off
At 21000ft. Is that possible?
Gaur
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Gaur »

^^
Don't know from machine point of view. But pretty darn dangerous for the backpackers. High probability to die from HAPE & HACE without acclimatization.
Thakur_B
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Thakur_B »

LUH drew plenty of attention from foreign countries at Aero India.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=467 ... -in-August
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by VinodTK »

Cross Posting from Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Saab Grintek Defence receives R940 million orders for Indian self-protection systems
Saab has received large follow-on orders for integrated self-protection systems for installation on the Indian Army and Air Force’s Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopters in deals worth approximately $78 million.

The Dhruv’s manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) ordered additional Integrated Defensive Aids Suites (IDAS), which warn against radar, laser and infrared (IR) guided threats and automatically deploy appropriate countermeasures. IDAS has been designed for both helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. Saab also produces protection systems for both land and naval applications.

Production of the IDAS system will take place at Saab Grintek Defence’s facilities in Centurion, with deliveries set to take place between 2015 and 2018. In addition to the production orders received, Saab also received orders for IDAS ground support and test equipment for the Dhruv programme. Chris Skinner, head of marketing and sales at Saab Grintek Defence, said that Saab and HAL are in talks over the production of IDAS components in India.

Anne Lewis-Olsson, Vice President Communication Sub Sahara Africa for Saab Grintek Defence, said the Indian order is huge for Saab Grintek Defence and will have good long-term implications for the company. She said it will also retain skills and competence in South Africa.

“This is the type of order that companies dream about,” Skinner said, adding that this will mean that production facilities will have to be expanded to accommodate. He expects Saab Grintek Defence to receive additional follow-on IDAS orders from HAL.

Saab has been awarded several follow-on contracts in the past, after receiving initial serial production orders in December 2008 worth $24 million. For instance, it received contracts worth $33 million in September 2013. However, the most recent orders are by far the largest from HAL, Skinner said, as the company speeds up helicopter production.

Micael Johansson, head of Saab business area Electronic Defence Systems said that, “the success of IDAS continues and we are proud that HAL and the Indian Armed Forces have continued faith in the IDAS system, of which this follow-on orders is a clear indication. It is a testimony of the effectiveness and reliability of the IDAS solution.”

“With these follow-on orders we continue to build on our very successful partnership with HAL and further establish Saab as a local partner to the Indian industry and as a supplier of high tech products and systems to the Indian Armed Forces”, said Lars-Olof Lindgren, head of Saab market area India.

Saab says IDAS has been chosen for many different airborne platforms, including the Saab 2000, Agusta-Westland A109, Super Lynx 300, Boeing CH-47 Chinook, Denel Rooivalk and Oryx, Eurocopter Cougar, Puma & Super Puma, NH Industries NH90, C-130 and L100 Hercules, and Sukhoi Su-30MKM.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is receiving 54 Dhruvs to partially replace its approximately 65 HAL Chetak and 25 Cheetah light helicopters, while the Army is taking 105 under a $3.56 billion order placed in 2007. Over 150 Dhruvs have been delivered to military and paramilitary forces after delays, technical problems, crashes and maintenance issues. HAL is currently manufacturing the improved Mk III and armed Mk IV Rudra variants (half of Dhruvs built will be these armed versions).

HAL is also working on the indigenous Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), based on the Dhruv. The first LCH prototype made its maiden flight in March 2010 and the third in November 2014. Initial operational capability is expected by September this year. HAL will build 65 for the IAF and 114 or the Indian Army. Although Saab Grintek Defence is only producing IDAS suites for the Indian Army and Air Force Dhruvs at the moment, it will be bidding to supply the system on the Light Combat Helicopter.

Skinner told defenceWeb that SGD had also secured another order for IDAS from a European client and is working with major original equipment manufacturers like Airbus Helicopters. In addition to selling the system to clients around the world, Skinner said there are some customers who also want local production.
vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Since I have received numerous requests to put these articles above on my blog (to make it easier to share), I have revamped my old blog to focus primarily on these analysis articles. You can now access the blog here:

thebetacoefficient.blogspot.com

Image

I will be adding some other articles on here about the Indian aerial tanker competition and so on.

Feedback is most welcome.

-Vivek
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Vipul »

Airbus irks Navy with six partners/bids for copter deal.

Has Airbus Helicopters bitten off more than it can chew? The company has evoked a strong reaction from Naval Authorities by partnering with multiple Indian vendors to bag contracts for the Navy Utility Helicopters Programme.

The company has participated with as many as six vendors — Mahindra Group, Reliance, Tata Group, Punj Lloyd, Pipavav, and L&T — for the 100-helicopter programme, which has been valued at $1.5 billion. The strategy has put it in an advantageous position to bag the contract.

Multiple sources said that during presentations made by companies interested in the project, Navy officials were perturbed by Airbus Helicopters’ approach.

“The (naval) officials felt Airbus was trying to ensure it gets a say by making six bids with various Indian vendors, adopting a different approach in each case,” a participant said on condition of anonymity.

Industry sources said this calls for clarity on whether there is any restriction on the number of bids a company can make at the ‘request for information (RFI)’ stage itself.

This RFI has been made under the Buy & Make (Indian) category, in accordance with the Defence Procurement Procedure, 2013. Only Indian firms can respond to the RFI and the terms allow them to discuss tie-ups with multiple foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM).

The main challenge for the Navy would be to ensure that the OEMs have clearly defined partnerships with the Indian companies so that execution meets the procurement guidelines, said another source.

The utility helicopters will have to be able to perform multiple operations, including search and rescue, medical evacuation, communication, anti-piracy/anti-terror, reconnaissance and disaster relief.

Speaking to BusinessLine, an Airbus Helicopters spokesperson said: “We, as a foreign OEM, are allowed to talk to multiple Indian companies and this is what we are doing at the moment. We have not formalised an exclusive partnership with any company as yet but will do so by the time the response to the request for participation is due.”

Sources also said that Airbus Helicopters wanted some changes in the request for participation terms and conditions, which did not go down well with the Indian Navy.

Some of the key changes requested by Airbus Helicopters include 100 per cent credits even if 30 per cent Indian content is achieved; full management control with a 51 per cent or higher equity stake; and complete discretion on technology transfer.

Naval Headquarters had invited the Indian lead partners along with representatives from OEMs to make presentations. The first presentation, on March 16, was made by Bell Helicopters. Airbus Helicopters had requested for more time for its presentations.

Once the RFIs are done, it will take at least six months for the request for participation notice to be issued.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

Note the recoil from 30 mm from Mi-35 gun , rotor position doesn't change to keep on target

Image
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Wicked!
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

this is not a usual chin turret gun, seems like a fixed gatling style cannon ...sounds useless to me if the helicopter has to fly lined up to the target like a A10
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Sid »

Singha wrote:this is not a usual chin turret gun, seems like a fixed gatling style cannon ...sounds useless to me if the helicopter has to fly lined up to the target like a A10
All choppers line up to lay down unguided rockets and munitions. Even TFTA Apache does that to fire salvos of hydra. Nothing uncommon here.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by deejay »

Sid wrote:
Singha wrote:this is not a usual chin turret gun, seems like a fixed gatling style cannon ...sounds useless to me if the helicopter has to fly lined up to the target like a A10
All choppers line up to lay down unguided rockets and munitions. Even TFTA Apache does that to fire salvos of hydra. Nothing uncommon here.
For any line of sight firing, irrespective of platform one would have to align - measure - aim and shoot. Most measurements and ideal shoot distances are worked out on ground and the settings applied on gun sights, rocket sights etc. From then on, if situation permits, the best thing to do would be perfect let down attack or dive attack etc as one would do on the practice ranges.

I saw a video of an A10 doing it over Mosul recently.

Secondly, front gun firing or canon or rocket firing is to handle an area (spread) and not a point from a helicopter. The rotors really shake the machine so steady pin point accuracy for a point shoot and destroy does not work. Even in the videos of Apaches shooting at Taliban one can see burst covering the general area rather than sniping at a point target.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Aditya G »

Singha wrote:this is not a usual chin turret gun, seems like a fixed gatling style cannon ...sounds useless to me if the helicopter has to fly lined up to the target like a A10
Twin barrel 30 mm cannon. Vs 20 mm trainable one that we see on desi hinds
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

deejay wrote:
For any line of sight firing, irrespective of platform one would have to align - measure - aim and shoot. Most measurements and ideal shoot distances are worked out on ground and the settings applied on gun sights, rocket sights etc. From then on, if situation permits, the best thing to do would be perfect let down attack or dive attack etc as one would do on the practice ranges.

I saw a video of an A10 doing it over Mosul recently.

Secondly, front gun firing or canon or rocket firing is to handle an area (spread) and not a point from a helicopter. The rotors really shake the machine so steady pin point accuracy for a point shoot and destroy does not work. Even in the videos of Apaches shooting at Taliban one can see burst covering the general area rather than sniping at a point target.
I once made a (not so good) video comparison of the two - the point being to show that both A-10 Gatling and Mi 35 rockets are to pulverize an area -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuLnnVDld-M
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:this is not a usual chin turret gun, seems like a fixed gatling style cannon ...sounds useless to me if the helicopter has to fly lined up to the target like a A10
Twin barrel 30 mm cannon
Image
deejay
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by deejay »

shiv wrote:
deejay wrote:
For any line of sight firing, irrespective of platform one would have to align - measure - aim and shoot. Most measurements and ideal shoot distances are worked out on ground and the settings applied on gun sights, rocket sights etc. From then on, if situation permits, the best thing to do would be perfect let down attack or dive attack etc as one would do on the practice ranges.

I saw a video of an A10 doing it over Mosul recently.

Secondly, front gun firing or canon or rocket firing is to handle an area (spread) and not a point from a helicopter. The rotors really shake the machine so steady pin point accuracy for a point shoot and destroy does not work. Even in the videos of Apaches shooting at Taliban one can see burst covering the general area rather than sniping at a point target.
I once made a (not so good) video comparison of the two - the point being to show that both A-10 Gatling and Mi 35 rockets are to pulverize an area -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuLnnVDld-M
Shiv Ji,

Nice video attempt and correct with comparisons of A10 with M10 front guns being an area weapon. I still feel it is true for all front guns, fighters or otherwise but the fighter jocks would never agree with being on the same bracket as a helicopter :).
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by pankajs »

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake 25s25 seconds ago

#LUHTakesShape Here's the LUH PT-1 structure that was uncoupled from the coupling jig at HAL facilities recently.
Image
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Vipul »

US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter may visit India in May to sign $2.5 bn deal.

US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter is likely to visit India next month when the two sides are expected to ink the nearly $2.5 billion deal for 22 Apache and 15 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters.

Though the final dates for Carter's visit have not been announced, defence sources said the visit will take place in May during which the two sides will discuss ways to enhance defence ties, especially in context of Prime Minister ..

The deal would be presented before the Cabinet Committee on Security for approval soon, they added.

American defence major Boeing, along with the US government, has extended the validity of the price quoted by them for another three months hoping to wrap up the deal soon.

Indian Defence Ministry had last month sought extension of the validity period on its expiry on March 31.

"They (Defence Ministry) kept asking for extensions and we did provide them as and when appropriate. It is not always possible to keep extending because we live in a world where we feel inflationary pressure," Boeing India President Pratyush Kumar had said in a press conference here.
Boeing has extended the price validity for They (Defence Ministry) kept asking for extensions and we did provide them as and when appropriate. It is not always possible to keep extending because we live in a world where we feel inflationary pressure," Boeing India President Pratyush Kumar had said in a press conference here.

Incidentally, the present Defence Procurement Policy does not allow room for increase in price once a bid has been shortlisted. In the event of the original manufacturer seeking a higher price than the one agreed upon, the tender can be terminated and a fresh one issued, as per defence officials.

The deal for the Apache is a "a hybrid one", with one contract to be signed with Boeing for the helicopter and the other with the US government for its weapons, radars and electronic warfare suites.

The US has been pushing for this contract as it will further bolster American presence in the burgeoning defence market of India.

American companies have over the last decade bagged defence contracts from India worth around USD 10 billion, including for aircraft like P-8I, C-130J 'Super Hercules' and C-17 Globemaster-III.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by VinodTK »

Indian Apache, Chinook pricing extended
The validity of bids for an Indian acquisition of 22 Boeing AH-64E Apache and 15 CH-47F Chinook helicopters, has been further extended to 30 June.

At the request of the Indian ministry of defence, the US Government and Boeing agreed to extend the validity of bids, which expired on 31 March.

Flightglobal understands that there has been no escalation in prices. There also exists a provision for 11 options for Apache and seven options for Chinook as part of the existing bid.

The Indian Apache deal will involve a direct commercial sale (DCS) with Boeing for the platform and a foreign military sale (FMS) with the US Govt for engines, sensors and armament. The unarmed Chinook will be acquired via the DCS route without an FMS component.

In August 2014, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), led by defence minister Arun Jaitley, approved the acquisition of both helicopters. Final approval for the deal from the government’s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has yet to be obtained.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cosmo_R »

Vipul wrote:US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter may visit India in May to sign $2.5 bn deal.

US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter is likely to visit India next month when the two sides are expected to ink the nearly $2.5 billion deal for 22 Apache and 15 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters.

Though the final dates for Carter's visit have not been announced, defence sources said the visit will take place in May during which the two sides will discuss ways to enhance defence ties, especially in context of Prime Minister ..
...
Told you (in the MMRCA thread) that Ashton Carter and Frank Kendall bought plane tickets when NaMo inked the Rafale buy off the shelf deal. I can (almost) guarantee that JSF will somehow figure in the discussion.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

Tine to quickly firm up these two deals,Apaches and Chinooks asap as we are now in a situ which calls for "any port in a storm".Pak is steadily beefing up its mil helo acquisitions and with the earthquake disaster in Nepal/N.India,our Ukhand floods last year,heavylift helos are essential. In fact,the existing 6 or so MI-26s should also be upgraded as these are unique birds,the largest in the world, able to carry/salvage downed Chinooks and even 70 seater jet aircraft from pics.6/8 MI-26s + 12+ Chinooks will give the IA/IAF the required heavylift capability to move heavy eqpt req. for our border/airfield infrastructure eqpt. vital for meeting deadlines on the various projects underway.The infrastructure revamping of old airstrips in the Himalayas to be able to operate fighter aircraft to meet the 7+ PLAAF air bases situated in Tibet has to be done not just in the 4 good months of the year.

One interesting dev.. seen in pics in the Vaysu-2 issue of this year is the folding rotors of the LUH which will also be fitted onto naval Dhruvs. This will allow both helos to be used aboard smaller naval warships,which was not poss. earlier.The IN has also reportedly asked for suitable naval UAVs wisely not specifying too rigid specs as it operates various types and number of its air-capable warships.More than one type of UAV may be required,longer ranged and larger ones for the carriers and larger warships.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Thakur_B »

Philip, you are losing your touch. You forgot to put an obligatory plug for outright purchase of Kamov and Mil ;)
I keed, I keed :)
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

Thax,these birds were chosen after a contest.They won fair and square.No grouse with that what?! The LCHs can make up the bulk of the attack helo requirement as prototypes are flying and series production could be accelerated.

I still feel that we should maintain a significant number of MI-26 helos as we can see from the recent disasters,last yrs. floods in UKhand and now the Nepal earthquake. Every year we have huge natural calamities and the services are pressed into disaster relief. Wars come perhaps once in a decade or so. In the challenge from China,growing by the day,the infrastructure on our side ,esp in the N-east,is poor and behind schedule (latest parl. committee's views published yesterday).Only large heavy-lift helos can carry the earthmoving eqpt. ,etc. sorely needed.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Shreeman »

We are trying to keep up with the flood of pictures in dijaster management thread, and you dont have to view manu pubby's tweets as a bonus:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... &start=560
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by putnanja »

IA likes the ALH and I think it will be the biggest customer for ALH/LAH in all variants
Last edited by putnanja on 01 May 2015 23:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Jaeger »

I have to say that the Nepali dark matte green looks sooooo much better on Dhruv. I'm really not a big fan of the glossy finish on our gear.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by chaanakya »

The Way ALHs are landing all over affected areas in Nepal in Impossible places must be giving Chinese Nightmares.

Shreeman wanted ALH in action and he got it.

But I loved the picture of ALH that was gifted by NaMo to Nepal last year in the frame with Indian M17.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Shreeman »

Image

The very recent ex-helicopter.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

Get an MI-26 to salvage the ex-helo! The pics of our pilots rescuing victims hovering on tiny patches of land,sometimes on just one skid,is simply astonishing. As in the Ukhand disaster,the MOD/GOI should make slick documentaries of the same for international publicity purposes and send them to the UN and every country.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by arun »

This picture of an Indian Army Aviation ALH Dhruv parked on a narrow terraced field up the side of a mountain in Pokhara shows the difficult terrain conditions that our Military has had to face in delivering aid in Nepal:

Image

From here:

Twitter
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Vipul »

Gurgaon-based Sun Group front-runner for being India partner for Kamov choppers.

Hidden in the details of the government's Wednesday big­bang 'Make in India' push in the defence production was the fine print about the Russian deal, by nomination not tender, to manufacture 200 Kamov Ka 226 light helicopters, so desperately needed to replace the ageing Cheetah fleet which services one of the world's highest military deployments on the Siachen glacier. Work on this had begun right after Russian President Vladimir Putin's visit in December.

Assurances were exchanged then at the highest levels to look into this project. What's interesting is that Goa might just be the place where the facility may come up given that a feasibility study has been conducted to set up a chopper line there soon after Manohar Parrikar, former Goa CM, took over as defence minister.

Incidentally, if this works out, this would be the second major defence project for the state.The minister has already announced that the Goa Shipyard has been nominated to construct 12 minesweepers for the Indian Navy in a contract that is expected to cost over $1 billion. While Russian Helicopters (RH) is in talks with a handful of possible Indian partners, the lead contender happens to be the Gurgaon­based Sun Group.

The deal, insiders said, may see the group cornering a significant share of the pie, which could cross $700 million. RH is likely to produce at least 200 choppers in India.

However, the company is also looking at involving Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), though partnerships with other private firms are not ruled out.The Sun Group, whose vice­chairman and founder Shiv Vikram Khemka has been a non­executive director on the board of RH since 2011, has already set up a helicopter division and is likely to be involved in the Make in India project.

While Sun did not respond to a detailed questionnaire sent by ET, company officials said things were at a preliminary stage and it was too
early to comment. Sources say the Sun Group was also an offset partner for RH in a previous competition to supply light choppers to the army. That process was, however, cancelled by the government last year.

Defence ministry officials, who did not wish to be quoted, told ET that the RH deal has effectively killed any other light helicopter project for the armed forces, including a process that was initiated earlier this year for an Indian­led JV to manufacture a new range of choppers.

Several companies, including Tata, L&T and Reliance Infra has responded to a request for information.
Locked